Author Topic: Today's shooting - The Sandy Hook Memorial Thread - Thoughts and Prayers  (Read 528080 times)

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #120 on: February 22, 2016, 10:48:16 pm »
My guess? Since I'm not a gun owner. They straight up just don't use them and they stay hidden/locked away in a safe. Or they hunt. Or they go to target ranges.

There are by estimates between 270 and 310 million guns in America.... is there any other country in the world that spends so much money to own something that most will never use but still manages to be responsible for 19,000 suicides, 9,000 homicides and thousands of accidental deaths.

If self protection is the point but 9,000 homicides haven't been prevented by 310 million guns you have to ask how many guns do the American people actually need to protect themselves? A billion? Two billion?

It has to be one of the greatest outbreaks of mass stupidity in human history.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #121 on: February 22, 2016, 10:50:41 pm »
So how about this. 

They are not used cos they are locked in a safe. Hmmmm ok, so pretty much no point having a gun then, right?

They go hunting.  OK well two suggestions. 1 Stop murdering animals for no reason. However if asking people to stop killing defenseless animals is too much then maybe the US can set up special hunting trips were everything is regulated and you can shoot the animals in a controlled environment.

Target range, same thing. Hire the guns at the range and give it back when you're finished.

If we're going to change some things here in this country about gun laws, it's best to start off with small and relatively implementable changes, not sweeping reform that is so unrealistic that it's hard to wrap my head around.

Most people in this country want to see SOMEthing change with gun laws.
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Offline Lone Star Red

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #122 on: February 22, 2016, 10:52:21 pm »
There are by estimates between 270 and 310 million guns in America.... is there any other country in the world that spends so much money to own something that most will never use but still manages to be responsible for 19,000 suicides, 9,000 homicides and thousands of accidental deaths.

If self protection is the point but 9,000 homicides haven't been prevented by 310 million guns you have to ask how many guns do the American people actually need to protect themselves? A billion? Two billion?

It has to be one of the greatest outbreaks of mass stupidity in human history.

2/3 of Americans don't even own guns.

So yeah, most people don't use guns because most people don't even own guns.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #123 on: February 22, 2016, 10:52:25 pm »
There are by estimates between 270 and 310 million guns in America.... is there any other country in the world that spends so much money to own something that most will never use but still manages to be responsible for 19,000 suicides, 9,000 homicides and thousands of accidental deaths.

If self protection is the point but 9,000 homicides haven't been prevented by 310 million guns you have to ask how many guns do the American people actually need to protect themselves? A billion? Two billion?

It has to be one of the greatest outbreaks of mass stupidity in human history.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #124 on: February 22, 2016, 11:02:47 pm »
If we're going to change some things here in this country about gun laws, it's best to start off with small and relatively implementable changes, not sweeping reform that is so unrealistic that it's hard to wrap my head around.

Most people in this country want to see SOMEthing change with gun laws.

Well you may be able to comprehend why these responsible gun owners don't want them taken away, but I don't.
Its clearly the right thing to do.  I actually find the term  responsible gun owner quite disingenuous.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #125 on: February 22, 2016, 11:24:22 pm »
Why don't the Dems propose a nationwide referendum on gun control measures? They could stand on a platform of following the will of the people. They could offer a whole range of options, not a simple yes/no on gun control.

Let the people and not the NRA lobbyists decide. It also neuters the campaigning hit. That pinko liberal is going to let the people decide is hardly the most damning of attacks.

No bill from a Democrat is likely to make much headway. Let the Nutjobs attack the views of the electorate. If the people were asked you are likely to have a more sane system than currently.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #126 on: February 22, 2016, 11:55:33 pm »
It has to be one of the greatest outbreaks of mass stupidity in human history.

It isn't alone. The same people who want unlimited firepower also tend to think the planet is less than 10,000 years old. A clear majority of Republicans, and also a worrying 40% of Democrats believe this. The further right you go, however, the more likely you are to run into unreason. No Republican of any stature accepts global warming as a man made phenomenon. Their ideas, and these are almost scripture in the GOP, on reproduction are stunningly ignorant and self evidently counter productive. Science is mistrusted, while the same people who deride learning queue up for the latest medical advancement. A good chunk of America is experiencing intellectual regression, a backward turn, and it is caused by their political leaders and their paymasters. Stupidity is not only indulged but encouraged.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #127 on: February 23, 2016, 12:26:38 am »
2/3 of Americans don't even own guns.

So yeah, most people don't use guns because most people don't even own guns.

And it's those non-gun owners who are allowing all this crime to happen. So have compulsory gun ownership from the cradle to the grave - arm the other 2/3 and cut out all violence.  That would be around a billion guns -  3 for every man woman and child in America.

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Offline Lone Star Red

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #128 on: February 23, 2016, 12:34:42 am »
Well you may be able to comprehend why these responsible gun owners don't want them taken away, but I don't.
Its clearly the right thing to do.  I actually find the term  responsible gun owner quite disingenuous.

It probably has to do with being a stupid American!  ;D
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #129 on: February 23, 2016, 08:51:43 am »
There are by estimates between 270 and 310 million guns in America.... is there any other country in the world that spends so much money to own something that most will never use but still manages to be responsible for 19,000 suicides, 9,000 homicides and thousands of accidental deaths.

If self protection is the point but 9,000 homicides haven't been prevented by 310 million guns you have to ask how many guns do the American people actually need to protect themselves? A billion? Two billion?

It has to be one of the greatest outbreaks of mass stupidity in human history.

Is that 'legal' guns?

Also is the 2/3 part owners or even members of a household with guns if anyone knows?

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #130 on: February 23, 2016, 08:54:27 am »
Is that 'legal' guns?

Also is the 2/3 part owners or even members of a household with guns if anyone knows?

Does it really matter? The numbers are absolutely insane however it's defined.
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Offline plura

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #131 on: February 23, 2016, 09:19:33 am »
Does it really matter? The numbers are absolutely insane however it's defined.

Matters? Well depends on how you look at it, one side it matters because as you say the numbers are insane, but was wondering if the numbers were even more insane. In terms of illegal weapons being owned and used by probably a large number of people, + households not being counted into the equation but only the registered person, and if that's true even more people have reasonable 'access' to those guns = even more people having guns once again.

Offline Chakan

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #132 on: February 23, 2016, 01:12:02 pm »
So how about this. 

They are not used cos they are locked in a safe. Hmmmm ok, so pretty much no point having a gun then, right?

They go hunting.  OK well two suggestions. 1 Stop murdering animals for no reason. However if asking people to stop killing defenseless animals is too much then maybe the US can set up special hunting trips were everything is regulated and you can shoot the animals in a controlled environment.

Target range, same thing. Hire the guns at the range and give it back when you're finished.

That already happens, there's regulated hunting seasons and places where you can hunt and licenses you need to obtain in order to hunt.

Offline KillieRed

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #133 on: February 23, 2016, 08:46:44 pm »
Why don't the Dems propose a nationwide referendum on gun control measures? They could stand on a platform of following the will of the people. They could offer a whole range of options, not a simple yes/no on gun control.

Let the people and not the NRA lobbyists decide. It also neuters the campaigning hit. That pinko liberal is going to let the people decide is hardly the most damning of attacks.

No bill from a Democrat is likely to make much headway. Let the Nutjobs attack the views of the electorate. If the people were asked you are likely to have a more sane system than currently.

Sounds good, but does America have any history of national referendum? I know they like to vote on all manner of local issues, but I suspect the individual states would be  (excuse the pun ) up in arms about that federal government over ruling them.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #134 on: February 23, 2016, 08:51:09 pm »
That already happens, there's regulated hunting seasons and places where you can hunt and licenses you need to obtain in order to hunt.

But do they hunt with their own gun, or one provided?
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #135 on: February 23, 2016, 08:51:58 pm »
But do they hunt with their own gun, or one provided?

People I know hunt with their own guns. I don't think hunting is the issue, it's the fact people can buy 4,5,6 guns.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #136 on: February 23, 2016, 08:57:36 pm »
Sounds good, but does America have any history of national referendum? I know they like to vote on all manner of local issues, but I suspect the individual states would be  (excuse the pun ) up in arms about that federal government over ruling them.

I don't think they have such a thing as a referendum at national level.

Offline Lone Star Red

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #137 on: February 23, 2016, 09:07:45 pm »
But do they hunt with their own gun, or one provided?

Their own, and where there's one, there's usually several.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #138 on: February 23, 2016, 09:23:02 pm »
This is the most pointless discussion ever. If a country in which 15 children under the age of 11 are shot dead every month can't manage to have reasoned debate on gun control they are utterly fucked and nothing anybody says or does will change that way of thinking now.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #139 on: February 23, 2016, 09:51:08 pm »
People I know hunt with their own guns. I don't think hunting is the issue, it's the fact people can buy 4,5,6 guns.


Yes I think youve got things a bit mixed up.  I was statign a case why guns could be taken away from so called responsible gun owners.  Lone Star said cos people wanna go hunting. So I suggested organised hunting trips where the guns are provided by the organisers. This would be needed as the hunters would not own guns as they would be living in a country that has finally arrived into the 20th century.

As an aside Im dead against hunting. 
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Offline Redman0151

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #140 on: February 25, 2016, 04:16:28 pm »
Don't worry the solution to these school shootings is here, give children handguns


Iowa Lawmakers Approve Bill That Would Let Kids Have Handguns


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iowa-kids-handguns_us_56ce4af9e4b0bf0dab30cae7?section=politics
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #141 on: February 25, 2016, 04:19:59 pm »
Don't worry the solution to these school shootings is here, give children handguns


Iowa Lawmakers Approve Bill That Would Let Kids Have Handguns


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iowa-kids-handguns_us_56ce4af9e4b0bf0dab30cae7?section=politics

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #142 on: February 25, 2016, 04:22:50 pm »
Don't worry the solution to these school shootings is here, give children handguns


Iowa Lawmakers Approve Bill That Would Let Kids Have Handguns


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/iowa-kids-handguns_us_56ce4af9e4b0bf0dab30cae7?section=politics


"A gun is only lethal when handled wrong"

No i'm pretty sure if you use a gun in the intended way it's pretty damn lethal.

What a fucking joke.


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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #144 on: February 26, 2016, 03:50:59 am »


This is literally the discussion that University of Houston faculty are having now that students are allowed to conceal carry into classrooms. This is a slide taken from a presentation by the President of the faculty senate. It was probably unintentional but what a remarkably successful, and chilling, method of robbing academic freedom from professors.
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Offline Redman0151

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #145 on: February 26, 2016, 10:09:12 am »

This is literally the discussion that University of Houston faculty are having now that students are allowed to conceal carry into classrooms. This is a slide taken from a presentation by the President of the faculty senate. It was probably unintentional but what a remarkably successful, and chilling, method of robbing academic freedom from professors.

"Drop certain topics from your curriculum", that's awful. Afraid to discuss and debate certain topics at a University in a supposed first world country out of fear of being murdered. I'd say something has to change, but we all know it won't
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #146 on: February 28, 2016, 01:26:58 am »
just about sums it up.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #147 on: February 28, 2016, 03:30:25 am »

Yes I think youve got things a bit mixed up.  I was statign a case why guns could be taken away from so called responsible gun owners.  Lone Star said cos people wanna go hunting. So I suggested organised hunting trips where the guns are provided by the organisers. This would be needed as the hunters would not own guns as they would be living in a country that has finally arrived into the 20th century.

As an aside Im dead against hunting. 

But the organizers would own guns. What if they get stolen?

Also note that most hunters don't shoot with handguns, and most mass shootings don't involve hunting rifles. So to remove the guns from hunters won't solve anything. (I will admit that as a Canadian, I hold the right to hunt quite dearly- no pun intended.)
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #148 on: February 28, 2016, 01:12:32 pm »
Virginia policewoman shot dead on first shift



A US police officer has been shot and killed on her first day at work, the day after she was sworn in.
Ashley Guindon had been responding to a domestic dispute in Woodbridge, Virginia, about 32 km (20 miles) south of Washington, DC.
Two of her colleagues were also injured in the shooting and are in hospital, but no details have been released about their condition.
The suspect, a military serviceman, was unharmed and is now in police custody.
The suspect had murdered his wife then opened fire on officers as they approached, a police official told the AP news agency.
There was also a child in the house at the time of the incident, he said.
"It is with profound sadness that we announce that Prince William County Police Officer Ashley Guindon, one of the officers involved in this evening's shooting on Lashmere Ct, has died as a result of her injuries sustained during the incident" her department said in a statement on Saturday.
Prince William County Police had earlier tweeted a picture of Guindon following her inauguration on Friday, urging her and another new colleague to "be safe".


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-35681240
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #149 on: February 28, 2016, 03:04:53 pm »
Oh come on America... :(
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #150 on: February 29, 2016, 06:08:07 pm »
But the organizers would own guns. What if they get stolen?

Also note that most hunters don't shoot with handguns, and most mass shootings don't involve hunting rifles. So to remove the guns from hunters won't solve anything. (I will admit that as a Canadian, I hold the right to hunt quite dearly- no pun intended.)

I really don't give a fuck if the guns usually used to murder defence less animals are different to those usually used to murder defenceless school kids. 

Removing guns from hunters wont slve anything?????  Yes it will, it will mean less people have guns.  I'm not talking about removing guns just from hunters, but everyone.  PEOPLE DONT NEED GUNS. 

However I put up an alternative that allows people to hunt. However it seems you dont like the restrictions on hunting. So my response on that would be fine, lets ban hunting, problem solved.

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Offline coolbyrne

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #151 on: March 1, 2016, 12:01:20 am »
I really don't give a fuck if the guns usually used to murder defence less animals are different to those usually used to murder defenceless school kids. 

Removing guns from hunters wont slve anything?????  Yes it will, it will mean less people have guns.  I'm not talking about removing guns just from hunters, but everyone.  PEOPLE DONT NEED GUNS. 

However I put up an alternative that allows people to hunt. However it seems you dont like the restrictions on hunting. So my response on that would be fine, lets ban hunting, problem solved.



Oh, I don't mind your restrictions at all. Would save me the money and the hassle of being an owner of 3 rifles and the ammunition to go with it. What I'm asking is, what stipulations do you suggest for the organizers who arrange the hunting? How do they get to own guns? What requirements do they have to meet? And I'll ask again- what prevents their guns from getting stolen and then being involved in a shooting?

I prefer your last suggestion, which is to ban hunting, if only because at least it's a clear cut suggestion. Now, would you ban ALL hunting or would cross bows be allowed?
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Offline zebenzui

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #152 on: March 1, 2016, 02:20:58 am »
What I'm asking is, what stipulations do you suggest for the organizers who arrange the hunting? How do they get to own guns? What requirements do they have to meet? And I'll ask again- what prevents their guns from getting stolen and then being involved in a shooting?

I don't see the point you're making with this line of reasoning.

Are you suggesting that it is impossible to effective demarcate what constitutes use of firearms for hunting? And whatever the answer to that question is, how does that relate to the idea that restricting ownership and access to guns contributes to public safety? I don't think Kenny's Jacket needs to address this to continue supporting strict gun control, it's utterly tangential.

And I don't understand why you're asking that last question. So what if there is a possibility of guns being stolen and used to do harm, does this mean we ought not restrict them?

In any case, you're quizzing him over something he doesn't seem to give a shit about. It's ubiquitous gun ownership he has a problem with, not trivial details regarding hunting.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #153 on: March 1, 2016, 05:14:24 am »
I don't see the point you're making with this line of reasoning.

Are you suggesting that it is impossible to effective demarcate what constitutes use of firearms for hunting? And whatever the answer to that question is, how does that relate to the idea that restricting ownership and access to guns contributes to public safety? I don't think Kenny's Jacket needs to address this to continue supporting strict gun control, it's utterly tangential.

And I don't understand why you're asking that last question. So what if there is a possibility of guns being stolen and used to do harm, does this mean we ought not restrict them?

In any case, you're quizzing him over something he doesn't seem to give a shit about. It's ubiquitous gun ownership he has a problem with, not trivial details regarding hunting.


Yes, exactly, Thanks. The point on hunting was raised by Lone Star who was putting Hunters in the responsible gun owners category, and how they would have fair point if they complained against stricter gun control. I suggested an alternative.
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #154 on: March 1, 2016, 05:24:14 am »
Oh, I don't mind your restrictions at all. Would save me the money and the hassle of being an owner of 3 rifles and the ammunition to go with it. What I'm asking is, what stipulations do you suggest for the organizers who arrange the hunting? How do they get to own guns? What requirements do they have to meet? And I'll ask again- what prevents their guns from getting stolen and then being involved in a shooting?

I prefer your last suggestion, which is to ban hunting, if only because at least it's a clear cut suggestion. Now, would you ban ALL hunting or would cross bows be allowed?

OK see my post above on why hunting got mentioned.  Yes I would ban all hunting, but that takes us off the topic.
No back to you question. The Hunting company's would go through all the required legalities that gun owners in civilized countries go through.  Yes they could get stolen, however that obviously makes it harder to get hold of a gun than the current system.

If you are now going to argue that the end is the same, people cam still get hold of guns, then the stats would back up my argument.   People in UK  can get hold of guns through illegal methods, but we don't have a massive issue with guns, America does. 

As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline ChaChaMooMoo

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #155 on: March 1, 2016, 04:05:30 pm »
People in UK  can get hold of guns through illegal methods, but we don't have a massive issue with guns, America does.

At the risk of sounding like someone who has read this thread a gazillion times, Australia either. And mind you this was a country where gun ownership was worse than the US. And boy did that change today.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #156 on: March 2, 2016, 12:03:10 am »
I don't think hunting rifles and long guns in particular are the problem in the USA, the biggest problem is handguns and their lax laws regarding proper storage. The greatest amount of crimes are committed with handguns and other than target pistols the only reason for their existence is to kill people, they are useless for hunting.
I hunt here in Aus(feral animals) and if you go through the tests and licensing procedures owning a rifle is not a problem, although you can have unannounced inspections to see if they are being kept in accordance to the law(locked gun safe etc), pistols are another thing altogether tho'. All in all the laws work, and if the people of the US had the will they could make it work too, it's jut that they don't have the will.

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #157 on: March 2, 2016, 01:18:03 am »
I don't see the point you're making with this line of reasoning.

Are you suggesting that it is impossible to effective demarcate what constitutes use of firearms for hunting? And whatever the answer to that question is, how does that relate to the idea that restricting ownership and access to guns contributes to public safety? I don't think Kenny's Jacket needs to address this to continue supporting strict gun control, it's utterly tangential.

And I don't understand why you're asking that last question. So what if there is a possibility of guns being stolen and used to do harm, does this mean we ought not restrict them?

In any case, you're quizzing him over something he doesn't seem to give a shit about. It's ubiquitous gun ownership he has a problem with, not trivial details regarding hunting.

No, I absolutely think we should restrict guns. I apologize if that didn't come across that way. I just think it needs to be done, full stop, without concessions. "This person can have one, that person can have one". I don't think that works.

Ultimately, though, I think Brissyred's got to the heart of the matter: It's just that they don't have the will [to make gun registration/control/restrictions work].

I don't understand it, I really don't. But my American spouse tells me it's because I'm not American and I didn't grow up in a culture that reveres guns. I often visit the in-laws in Oklahoma, and can genuinely admit I am often, if not fearful for my life, certainly always on edge. Open carry! I mean, jesus. Why??
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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #158 on: March 2, 2016, 01:38:18 am »
Virginia policewoman shot dead on first shift
But what if those shot and killed had guns?...

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Re: Yet another mass shooting at an American college
« Reply #159 on: March 2, 2016, 02:23:49 am »
No, I absolutely think we should restrict guns. I apologize if that didn't come across that way. I just think it needs to be done, full stop, without concessions. "This person can have one, that person can have one". I don't think that works.

Ultimately, though, I think Brissyred's got to the heart of the matter: It's just that they don't have the will [to make gun registration/control/restrictions work].

I don't understand it, I really don't. But my American spouse tells me it's because I'm not American and I didn't grow up in a culture that reveres guns. I often visit the in-laws in Oklahoma, and can genuinely admit I am often, if not fearful for my life, certainly always on edge. Open carry! I mean, jesus. Why??

There does seem to be a cultural difference. My girlfriend's family has guns (for outdoor ranges), and they are locked up in a safe in the arse-end of the house for 364 days of the year. There's no dick-waving, no posturing, the guns are just treated, in the emotional sense, like upjumped tennis rackets. And, critically, if the guns they have were banned tomorrow, they'd have no problem with giving up their day at the range to stay on the right side of the law ("damn, we'll have to buy a caravan again").

I agree too that the sort of guns they have (at most 2 shots before a laborious reload, dubious range and accuracy) are not the problem. On the other hand, there's no sane reason at all to allow people to own handguns and assault rifles. It's only that, personally, I cannot muster the energy to make a nuanced case for sporting guns to remain relatively accessible. So I'll happily take the "no guns for anyone" stance.

Disclaimer: I've lived in Hong Kong and the UK, places (especially the former) where guns just don't really happen.