Topic: Vatican letter told Ireland's Catholic bishops not to report child abuse

[scatman]

why is there no discussion about some of the priests being homosexual? You'd think an organisation so vehemently against any same sex relations would be turfing these priests out

[Corkboy]

That is breathtaking. Some highlights...

"Bishops and superiors have often felt isolated as they sought to confront the wave of indignation"

Those poor bastards. Imagine how they felt, as they bravely sheltered and protected child rapists.

It said that the community should establish "a proper relationship" with journalists with the aim of "making known the truth of the Gospel and the Church's life".

Yeah. Because journalists are the real problem.

"There was a feeling that the spirit of the sixties had infected the seminaries too much,"

That's right. It was the sixties that raped all those children.

[Carra23]

I guess this is right time to ask them to approve Gay Marriage in God's house.
Far more acceptable than raping kids in God's house.

[1021]

"There was a feeling that the spirit of the sixties had infected the seminaries too much"

Good grief.

[Corkboy]

I guess this is right time to ask them to approve Gay Marriage in God's house.
Far more acceptable than raping kids in God's house.

Actually, the Catholic church thinks they're broadly the same thing. When they're not blaming random decades, they've always said that all the child raping was because the rapists were basically gay.

[Carra23]

Actually, the Catholic church thinks they're broadly the same thing. When they're not blaming random decades, they've always said that all the child raping was because the rapists were basically gay.

One law for the Paedophiles and one for anyone else who wears a cloak.

[scatman]

so gay rapists under vatican protection?

[Yorkykopite]

That's right. It was the sixties that raped all those children.

The point made about the 'spirit of the 60s' is so obscurely put that it must be deliberately obscurantist. What is the man trying to say? That 'the spirit of the sixties' caused a lapse in dogma which caused sexual abuse of children? Or that if only the priests had been less independent-minded and more faithful to Rome no children would have been hurt?

If that is what is being insinuated then it shows they have learnt nothing from this - and don't intend to learn anything. If it wasn't for 'the spirit of the sixties' it is likely that no one would have blown the whistle. And if they had no one would have believed them.

In fact the mind boggles at the amount of child abuse that must have existed in the Catholic church before the 1960s when ecclesiastical authority was so much stronger (and religious dogma even more rigid).

[xavidub]

Usual mixture of lies, obfuscation, denial, disinformation and pusillanimity that we have all come to expect from this criminal and morally and spiritually bankrupt corporation.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

just look at the Title of this thread!

and this long series of cases is limited to child abuse, they were also vicious thugs too who severely beat kids

That "Erreee" was meant to be "Errrrr".

I know all about their vicious nature, my Granda was treated to it at the local Christian Brothers for the 'best years' of his life.

[conman]

That "Erreee" was meant to be "Errrrr".

I know all about their vicious nature, my Granda was treated to it at the local Christian Brothers for the 'best years' of his life.

I wasn't disagreeing with you Harry, just agreeing and highlighting the title of the thread to show the irony of these words from our lord saviour gatekeeper people of the devine

seems a huge number of generations gone by were beaten, most of my dads class were repeatedly thumped, caned etc by the Christian brothers.

[Suspect Package.]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17453849

Dutch Roman Catholic church 'castrated' boys in 1950s

Up to 11 boys were castrated while in the care of the Dutch Roman Catholic church in the 1950s to rid them of homosexuality, a newspaper investigation has said.

A young man was castrated in 1956 after telling police he was being abused by priests, the newspaper reported.

The justice minister is investigating the role of the government at the time.

Last year, an inquiry found thousands of children had been sexually abused in Dutch Catholic institutions since 1945.

Dutch MPs called for an inquiry after the report was published in the NRC Handelsblad newspaper at the weekend.
 
Henk Hethuis, a pupil at a Catholic boarding school, was 18 when he told police in 1956 he was being abused by a Dutch monk. He was castrated on the instructions of Catholic priests, NRC Handelsblad said, and told this would "cure" him of his homosexuality.

The same happened to at least 10 of his schoolmates, the newspaper said.

Hethuis died in a car crash in 1958.

Dutch Justice Minister Ivo Opstelten called the allegations "very serious and shocking" and said he would investigate the role of the Dutch government at the time.

The Dutch Catholic church has said it is willing to co-operate with an investigation to find out whether the media reports are true, Reuters reports.

A commission of inquiry last year said Catholic officials had failed to tackle the widespread abuse at schools, seminaries and orphanages.

The commission - headed by former cabinet minister Wim Deetman - found tens of thousands of children had suffered abuse ranging from inappropriate touching to rape.

It condemned what it called the church's cover-up and culture of silence.

NRC Handelsblad said the commission received a complaint about the alleged castration cases in 2010.

Dutch MPs are to ask formally for a parliamentary hearing with the head of the commission, former cabinet minister Wim Deetman, to ask him why he did not include the information in his report.

[The Gulleysucker]

I don't want to appear to be defending them, but I spotted this last night and did think the headline was perhaps a tad too decisive.

These are currently just allegations made by a newspaper, though sadly it does sound only too plausible.

What's not clear is if this alleged castration was chemical or surgical and if it was performed by medical professionals.

I only make the distinction in that Chemical Castration was certainly widely used as a supposed 'cure' for all kinds of so called deviancy during those less enlightened times, even here in the UK.  See Alan Turing.

[The Gulleysucker]

Cardinal Brady will not resign over 'abuse failure' ...  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17921673

Graham Linehan, the writer of Father Ted.... “If only they had something like a book of fables or parables that they could use to draw some moral guidance from.”

http://donegaldollop.wordpress.com/2012/05/02/cardinal-brady-maintains-that-concept-of-right-and-wrong-did-not-exist-back-in-the-1970s/

[Corkboy]

http://donegaldollop.wordpress.com/2012/05/02/cardinal-brady-maintains-that-concept-of-right-and-wrong-did-not-exist-back-in-the-1970s/

Where do you find these things?

[The Gulleysucker]

Another (of the many) fellow ex-rockcakes sent me it.

[Yorkykopite]

Did you see the Macintyre BBC 2 documentary on this last night Gulley? Bloody amazing. The sequence where the abused boy talked through what happened during his 'interrogation' by the priesthood in 1975 was simply staggering. The fact that it was cut with sections of the transcript signed by Brady made it all the more real and certain. You could get a glimpse at one point of a priest asking the abused boy "Did you enjoy it?" You realised at that point that this was obviously how the crooked bastards would privately defend it to each other - the boys enjoy it.

What an institution.

[The Gulleysucker]

Did you see the Macintyre BBC 2 documentary ....

Yes. It was awful. It's a truly strange thing that such an organisation could get it institutionally so wrong and for so long.

I can only assume part of the problem must have been the close links to the State that certainly used to exist and the due though totally misplaced deference that the rest of society at the time gave these people, though no doubt devout apologists will still continue to do so.

A stark warning of the perils of absolute or at the very least unchecked power and the arrogance and feeling of infallability it can bestow on practitioners, especially those that regard themselves as chosen to follow the calling of a god.

[Corkboy]

[Yorkykopite]

Yes. It was awful. It's a truly strange thing that such an organisation could get it institutionally so wrong and for so long.

I can only assume part of the problem must have been the close links to the State that certainly used to exist and the due though totally misplaced deference that the rest of society at the time gave these people, though no doubt devout apologists will still continue to do so.

A stark warning of the perils of absolute or at the very least unchecked power and the arrogance and feeling of infallability it can bestow on practitioners, especially those that regard themselves as chosen to follow the calling of a god.

I think that's part of it. The Catholic church was not just in cahoots with the State but was actually above it. That's why Enda Kenny's ferocious attack on the church was such an important event in Irish history.

But you got a little sense from last night's documentary that they got it wrong for another reason - and that is they didn't know it was wrong. Cardinal Brady's defence can be lampooned but in a way he's probably right. That's to say, there was nothing unusual or shocking about child rape in the church at that time. The priesthood had managed to convince itself that some kids enjoyed being abused and that rape could be a pastoral kind of thing. Hence the astonishing line of questioning to that particular abused boy.

What Brady's done here with his weasling defence of course is to shield himself but open up a far greater can of worms. Because the next question is 'why did the Catholic church think some kids would enjoy this?' The answer is, for the same reason that paedophile rings serve to normalise or even romanticise child abuse. Raping kids had become so widespread and normal in parts of the church that it was easier to say it was 'good' rather than 'it's not happening'. The important thing was to stop the discussion taking place outside the ring, or the church. That was easy in Ireland because of the peculiar status of the church within that country. That's where your deference comes in.

It's almost certainly not just the Catholic church either. Any theocracy or quasi-theocracy will tend to generate such deviant behaviour - especially where there are intense religious hang-ups against pre-marital sex or homosexuality and parallel book-driven obsessions about 'purity' and 'virtue'. I'm sure that in future times, when democracy and the culture of accountability finally come to the Middle Eastern countries, we'll find the same shameful abuse of children by the mullahs of Saudi Arabia, Iran and what not.

[bleedsred1978]

That's deeply upsetting. Picture paints a thousand words.

[Corkboy]

But you got a little sense from last night's documentary that they got it wrong for another reason - and that is they didn't know it was wrong. Cardinal Brady's defence can be lampooned but in a way he's probably right. That's to say, there was nothing unusual or shocking about child rape in the church at that time. The priesthood had managed to convince itself that some kids enjoyed being abused and that rape could be a pastoral kind of thing. Hence the astonishing line of questioning to that particular abused boy.

I find it hard to accept they didn't know it was wrong. It is alluded to in Gulley's satire piece above...

In a brief statement, Cardinal Brady’s defence appeared to be that the concept of right and wrong did not exist in the 1970s and, as such, the Catholic Church lacked the moral equipment necessary to deal with the ‘tricky’ issue of child rape.

If they managed to convince themselves that what was going on wasn't wrong then they clearly did not have a properly functioning sense of morality, which is ironic given that they set themselves up as being the arbiters of right and wrong. Personally, I don't give a shit. I can't believe I'm writing this, it's so self evident, but raping children is wrong and anyone who thinks it isn't is a fucking monster.

What I'm trying to say is that I'm not interested in their excuses, they make about as much sense as Breivik and his "mission". There is no excuse.

[Yorkykopite]

If they managed to convince themselves that what was going on wasn't wrong then they clearly did not have a properly functioning sense of morality, which is ironic given that they set themselves up as being the arbiters of right and wrong.

That's what I'm saying. (I'm horrified - and slightly amazed at your deductive powers - that you think I might have been exonerating them). And the irony is not that they set themselves up as arbiters of right and wrong, but that they consider themselves human beings.

[Corkboy]

That's what I'm saying. (I'm horrified - and slightly amazed at your deductive powers - that you think I might have been exonerating them).

You said they didn't know it was wrong, and all other things being equal, that suggests a lack of culpability. I don't think that's what you meant, needless to say, but I would be very wary of any hint of mitigation. What I'm saying is that in this instance, "not knowing it was wrong" is not a defence of any kind. The usual phrase in law for issues like these is "knew or ought to have known" and that's probably a better fit here.

[Yorkykopite]

You said they didn't know it was wrong, and all other things being equal, that suggests a lack of culpability. I don't think that's what you meant, needless to say, but I would be very wary of any hint of mitigation. What I'm saying is that in this instance, "not knowing it was wrong" is not a defence of any kind. The usual phrase in law for issues like these is "knew or ought to have known" and that's probably a better fit here.

Indeed. Ignorance is no defence. In fact in issues of such basic morality it is arguably even worse to be ignorant than to knowingly conceal. In this case it shows that the institution was - is still? - perverted, not that it is devious and cunning.  The only reasonable thing to do given the sheer levels of abuse  (probably over the centuries, let's face it) is to disband. 

[Corkboy]

Indeed. Ignorance is no defence. In fact in issues of such basic morality it is arguably even worse to be ignorant than to knowingly conceal. 

That's an interesting one.

A: "I knew I was doing the wrong thing but I did it anyway"

vs

B: "I thought raping kids was fine so fuck you"

I think you might be right.

[kennedy81]

same old, same old from the catholic church then.
they simply don't consider themselves as being regular citizens, with all the responsibilities that implies.
they only look after their own,
they only answer to their own (and the Big Lad above of course),
and they don't give a fuck what anyone else thinks.

[Corkboy]

The Holy Spirit is like a dove.

White?

[macca888]

White?

I think they meant it as more like a bar of soap on a prison shower floor. Go anywhere near it, you'll end up getting fucked against your will.

[The Gulleysucker]

The Holy Spirit is like a dove.

I'm sorry but you'll have to help me out a bit here.

Can you explain exactly what this so called Holy Spirit and your enigmatic comparison of him (her,it) to a dove has got to do with a bunch of grown men buggering little boys against their will ie child rape, and then these so called paragons and preachers of virtue, these spiritual leaders of their communities, protected and shielded by a cloak of privileged religious standing, using their then position of power and the respectful deference that used to be held within society towards them to deny it all, even going so far as to blame it on the abused children and to attempt to silence the children and their parents and generally obfuscate to cover it all up?

Suffer little children to come unto me.... Yes, these shepherds of the flock made those children suffer alright.

This was monstrous corruption and abuse of power, as the child rapists and those that covered it up well knew.

[Corkboy]

you're right of course, it's very sad and everyone's outraged.  where there's power there always needs to be accountability and i'd like to see better procedures in place to mitigate the risk of abuse, in the church and elsewhere...  what else is there to say?  can sinners be reconciled?  imo, there should be better regulation of the media, tighter controls of mps expenses, better regulation of financial dealings of irish politicians, less political voting in the eurovision song contest and goal-line technology should be introduced.

You didn't answer the question. What has the holy spirit to do with it?

Oh, and did you just compare child rape with goal-line technology?

[Corkboy]

yet more outrage!

Do you think there's too much outrage?

the holy spirit is a bird and i think it's beautiful.  it's something people shouldn't lose sight of because of the wrongs of clergymen. 

So when priests rape children, we should all think of beautiful birds? Wow. That's almost as good as the stuff the Catholic church comes out with.

all of us are sinners saved by god's grace.

I'm not. Speak for yourself but don't tar everyone else with your lunatic notions.

[bleedsred1978]

Do you think there's too much outrage?

So when priests rape children, we should all think of beautiful birds? Wow. That's almost as good as the stuff the Catholic church comes out with.

I'm not. Speak for yourself but don't tar everyone else with your lunatic notions.

I think your fighting a losing battle there Corkboy.

You cant reason with faith. They are mutually exclusive.

[RojoLeón]

the holy spirit is a bird and i think it's beautiful.  it's something people shouldn't lose sight of because of the wrongs of clergymen.  all of us are sinners saved by god's grace.  there are many things in life that are wrong, we should try and resolve the things we can.

So, God created everything on this world: He created child rapists. He wanted there to be child rape and clerical coverups.

Sleep tight with that thought.

[Yorkykopite]

Bird Brain more like.

[The Gulleysucker]

So, God created everything on this world: He created child rapists. He wanted there to be child rape and clerical coverups.
...

Yes, worryingly the perversion of logic extended by some to ex post facto accept and rationalise if not justify historical pogroms.

[RojoLeón]

On the whole, yes.  At least, from you there is.  You're always outraged, even if Brady stands down you'll still be outraged.  On the internet - outraged.  You may have no faith in God, but have you lost faith in reconciliation?  That's why I said about the Holy Spirit and how it's a bird; as Christians historically we've put too much faith in men, we should look more to God and The Holy Spirit - a more personal faith i suppose.  My Nan grew up in an industrial school in Ireland and when i found out i lost my faith for some time, until i came to think that God may have made man imperfect, he made sorrow and he made grief, but he didn't make industrial schools.  Similarly Christ founded the Catholic Church, but he didn't create the shambles in Ireland at present or the Medicis or Alexander vi or say that The Pope was infallible, it's not God or Jesus that have lost there way, it is us.  I understand outrage, but you shouldn't let it define you.  Try and let love more positive thoughts and deeds define you... stop worrying and enjoy your life!

Child rape, at the hands (and penises) of the catholic god's human representatives on earth: Its all part of his divine plan.

[RojoLeón]

He created the devil too, it's a frightening thought really and a hard lesson to learn.

Ah, the old 'it was the devil what done it' excuse.

What does that say about the church then? That they are agents of the devil, and its his work that they do? 

[TepidT2O]

On the whole, yes.  At least, from you there is.  You're always outraged, even if Brady stands down you'll still be outraged.  On the internet - outraged.  You may have no faith in God, but have you lost faith in reconciliation?  That's why I said about the Holy Spirit and how it's a bird; as Christians historically we've put too much faith in men, we should look more to God and The Holy Spirit - a more personal faith i suppose.  My Nan grew up in an industrial school in Ireland and when i found out i lost my faith for some time, until i came to think that God may have made man imperfect, he made sorrow and he made grief, but he didn't make industrial schools.  Similarly Christ founded the Catholic Church, but he didn't create the shambles in Ireland at present or the Medicis or Alexander vi or say that The Pope was infallible, it's not God or Jesus that have lost there way, it is us.  I understand outrage, but you shouldn't let it define you.  Try and let love more positive thoughts and deeds define you... stop worrying and enjoy your life!

Children were raped....raped


They were raped because the church appointed paedophiles ..... Ok, this happens, that's the "devil" if you want a Shitty kop out.....


But crucially, children continued to be raped, now, this was not because people didn't know, it wasn't even because people did nothing.... People actively covered this up, they actively tried to stop people being punished for their crimes.

This happened at a local level, at a national level and at a global level....



It couldn't have been handled worse, 100s (maybe 1000s) of children were raped when they didn't need to be.

There is no excuse, this was no reason for this to happen, it was a criminal act at all levels.

[RojoLeón]

He created the devil too, it's a frightening thought really and a hard lesson to learn.

And speak of the Devil: The old nazi himself is the very agent of a insidious criminal conspiracy to shutdown and coverup investigations into child rape within the church. Because that is exactly what god wants and Jesus himself would have done. Suffer the little children..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/apr/24/children.childprotection

Pope 'obstructed' sex abuse inquiry

Confidential letter reveals Ratzinger ordered bishops to keep allegations secret

Pope Benedict XVI faced claims last night he had 'obstructed justice' after it emerged he issued an order ensuring the church's investigations into child sex abuse claims be carried out in secret.

The order was made in a confidential letter, obtained by The Observer, which was sent to every Catholic bishop in May 2001.

It asserted the church's right to hold its inquiries behind closed doors and keep the evidence confidential for up to 10 years after the victims reached adulthood. The letter was signed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, who was elected as John Paul II's successor last week.

Lawyers acting for abuse victims claim it was designed to prevent the allegations from becoming public knowledge or being investigated by the police. They accuse Ratzinger of committing a 'clear obstruction of justice'.

The letter, 'concerning very grave sins', was sent from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the Vatican office that once presided over the Inquisition and was overseen by Ratzinger.

It spells out to bishops the church's position on a number of matters ranging from celebrating the eucharist with a non-Catholic to sexual abuse by a cleric 'with a minor below the age of 18 years'. Ratzinger's letter states that the church can claim jurisdiction in cases where abuse has been 'perpetrated with a minor by a cleric'.

The letter states that the church's jurisdiction 'begins to run from the day when the minor has completed the 18th year of age' and lasts for 10 years.

It orders that 'preliminary investigations' into any claims of abuse should be sent to Ratzinger's office, which has the option of referring them back to private tribunals in which the 'functions of judge, promoter of justice, notary and legal representative can validly be performed for these cases only by priests'.

'Cases of this kind are subject to the pontifical secret,' Ratzinger's letter concludes. Breaching the pontifical secret at any time while the 10-year jurisdiction order is operating carries penalties, including the threat of excommunication.

The letter is referred to in documents relating to a lawsuit filed earlier this year against a church in Texas and Ratzinger on behalf of two alleged abuse victims. By sending the letter, lawyers acting for the alleged victims claim the cardinal conspired to obstruct justice.

Daniel Shea, the lawyer for the two alleged victims who discovered the letter, said: 'It speaks for itself. You have to ask: why do you not start the clock ticking until the kid turns 18? It's an obstruction of justice.'

Father John Beal, professor of canon law at the Catholic University of America, gave an oral deposition under oath on 8 April last year in which he admitted to Shea that the letter extended the church's jurisdiction and control over sexual assault crimes.

The Ratzinger letter was co-signed by Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone who gave an interview two years ago in which he hinted at the church's opposition to allowing outside agencies to investigate abuse claims.

'In my opinion, the demand that a bishop be obligated to contact the police in order to denounce a priest who has admitted the offence of paedophilia is unfounded,' Bertone said.

Shea criticised the order that abuse allegations should be investigated only in secret tribunals. 'They are imposing procedures and secrecy on these cases. If law enforcement agencies find out about the case, they can deal with it. But you can't investigate a case if you never find out about it. If you can manage to keep it secret for 18 years plus 10 the priest will get away with it,' Shea added.

A spokeswoman in the Vatican press office declined to comment when told about the contents of the letter. 'This is not a public document, so we would not talk about it,' she said.