Author Topic: The history of the Holocaust  (Read 53087 times)

Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #80 on: February 10, 2008, 03:49:11 pm »
Yorkykopite lumps anyone who question the Holocaust in anyway as Zionist do as either Deniers or Revisionist Deniers. He omits as he does all through his post that the call for truth has its thrust in Israel and Jewish circles world wide. He then throws in a bit of good old Red Baiting to add spice and further send those who oppose the Holocaust Industry into another category. The documents sited by Brenner, Greenstein A Hart Finkelstein et al are not from the archives of the KGB or Stasis, they are out in public domain produced in hundreds of historical works.

The fact that Zionism did collaborate with the Nazis is not under question but that depends on what part of Yorky post you read. He says at the start that the argument that Zionism and National socialism shared a creed, he wrongly and slyly puts in brackets “(both were racist)” they are both ultra Nationalist that is their connection, that Zionism has elements of racism in it makeup is clear but National socialism was an outright racist regeime.

He attacks Brenner for quoting only what he want to quote but in the 3rd para. he mixes words and phrases not used by me that allows himself to claim without foundation that I say Zionism and Nazism conspired with each other to exterminate 6 million Jews. That would say they were both equal partners in a conspiracy and that was most certainly wasn’t the case.

Brenner in his highly acclaimed Zionism in the Age of the Dictators goes a lot further and deeper than in  his 51 Documents, each chapter is ended with pages of notes with accreditations from far and wide here is the link for the on line version the reader can see for himself that although Brenner does not swim in the mainstream he does have a very good breast stroke for accuracy http://www.marxists.org/history/etol/document/mideast/agedict/index.htm
Yorky pours his usual unsubstantiated scorn on 19 of Brenners list in his 51 Documents so do was accept the majority of 33 are spot on, and knowing York’s methods of deduction and word spinning and the fact he doesn’t list his objections to any of them just the source “ of many”, The Stern Gang. Wasn’t the two term Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir a member of "little tiny weenie" group the Stern Gang They also had close connections with “mainstream” Zionist terrorists in Palestine, Ben Gurion used them for special operations. Yorky is doing a Yorky and talking them down.

Read Yorky’s post a couple of times it takes that to see his contradictions. Zionism did, then they didn’t, have agreements with the Nazis. Zionism did, then didn’t, have a policy of selection.

 No main stream scholar accepts the claims, …..  the good old mainstream, Hitler also had his mainstream historians that told the people all about the history of the Jews and the heroic German people. So did Joe Stalin,  those outside the mainstream ended up in the camps. Before the advent of TV and the internet how many British kids understood what the British did around the world. Relying on mainstream historians we would still be thinking Britain brought civilisation to the world all for free!! Thanks to the out of stream historians we know a lot more than that eh! For me, scratch a mainstream historian and in most cases you will find a state functionary.

The Nazis did not as he claims see Jews just as Jews and the ravings of Hitler in Mein Kemph proves nothing, only that he was deranged before he took power. Zionism was a useful and willing tool for Hitler before and when he took power and he used it against the Jews of Germany and later those of the occupied nations of that there is no question. Yorky although couched in a heavy dose of evasive language, he admits that himself. He, like those who actually collaborated, and those who today seek to minimize their roll dismiss principle and integrity and substitute the good old moral dilemma, they use it as an excuse or an alibi rather than a reason.

They can never answer the question of why so many Jews went to their deaths so easily, why they were never given the chance to resist, as resist they most surely would if they had known their fate. The Jew is not a natural coward even if Hitler and as many mainstream historians would like us to believe they are. They have a good and honourable history for a fight, the Jews who went to their deaths as communists are testimony to that. The answer is the actions of those who the Nazis chose to be their helpers, not all Zionists but by far the vast majority were.
Here is Judge Benjamin Halevi giving his verdict against Krasztner in 1955 He was citing the particular case of Auschwitz but it can be accepted that it was the norm throughout the camps for there was no resistance at any of them...............

The Jews of the ghettos would not have trusted the Nazi or Hungarian rulers. But they had trust in their Jewish leaders. Eichmann and others used this known fact as part of their calculated plan to mislead the Jews. They were able to deport the Jews to their extermination by the help of Jewish leaders. The false information was spread by the Jewish leaders. ……… The trust of the Jews in the misleading information and their lack of knowledge that their wives, children and themselves were about to be deported to the gas chambers of Auschwitz led the victims to remain quiescent in their ghettos. It seduced them into not resisting or hampering the deportation orders. Dozens of thousands of Jews were guarded in their ghettos by a few dozen police. Yet even vigorous young Jews made no attempt to overpower these few guards and escape to nearby Rumania. No resistance activities to the deportations were organized in these ghettos. And the Jewish leaders did everything in their power to soothe the Jews in the ghettos and to prevent such resistance activities

Yorky like  many in Zionism itself blames the Jews for not fighting “There was no sense of panic amongst or urgency amongst Jews,” the Jewish members of the German Jewish Bund, KPD, SD and The Left Opposition where sure as hell fired up over Hitler. It was the “mainstream” Jewish leaders Zionism at the front that instilled in the Jewish masses that there was nothing to worry about, after all hadn’t the Zionist leaders worked with the National Socialist to fight the workers movement?

There are many distortions in what I quote from Brenner and others but as usual Yorky never gives out the text and link or accreditation for what he says is omitted, we have to take his word for it. Not a very good method of dealing with history, Even his “mainstream” historians wouldn’t accept that.

He says Palestine wasn’t Jewish or Arab it was British. So before that it was Turk but what was the name of the country and the name of the indigenous population. This is part of the history re-write. There was no Palestine and nobody lived there.

The quotes from Ben Gurion and the WZO are those used to appease the international outcry about Zionists blocking attempts to do something over the refugee problem in Europe. They came as it was almost certain the Nazis would loose the war. The Zionists had eyes on using the deaths in Europe to force through their plans for Palestine to be seen in a bad light regarding refugees would hinder their plane. Yorky also sites modern post Holocaust re-write historians as to the Evian Conference saying this or that historian poured cold water, on the issue he says they claimed the job was done before they sat down, he could be right, the Zionists had made no bones as to the fact they would accept nothing that didn’t include all Jews ( the best ones anyway) to Palestine. The Dominican offer was lost through not being able to do the work to get them there, Zionists and the WZO had that capability why didn’t they offer little DR their help. Roosvelt was an anti Zionist yet his best friend and someone he used on many occasions as  an unofficial emissary Morris Ernest a Jew who later succumbed to the Israeli dream and was used by Ben Gurion to put pressure on Roosvelt to support their Plans for Israel. Roosvelt tried more than twice after Evian but both times they failed. The first was he sent When he became aware of the Jewish refugee problem, President Roosevelt, on purely humanitarian grounds, set his mind to work on devising a rescue plan. The scheme he favoured was "generous worldwide political asylum". He established that Canada, Australia and some South American countries might open their doors. And he believed that if good examples were set by other nations, the American Congress could be "educated to go back to our traditional position of asylum." The quotations in this paragraph are from a conversation the President had with his friend and confidant Morris Ernst, a Jewish American and New York Attorney.'

Going back to "our traditional position of asylum" meant changing the immigration laws passed in 1921 during what Brenner described as a "wave of xenophobia" when anti-Semitism was quite widespread in America.
Roosevelt knew that the key to his rescue plan was in London and he sent Ernst there to sound out the British and ask if they were prepared to take in 100,000 or even 200,000 of Europe's uprooted Jews. Ernst arrived in London during the second blitz (all night raids by German bombers). Partly on account of the pounding London and other parts of Britain were taking he was impressed by the British response. According to what Ernst himself told a Cincinnati audience in 1950, and as noted by Lilienthal, the following is part of the conversation Ernst had with President Roosevelt when he returned from London:

ERNST: We are at home plate. This little island on a properly representative programme of a World Immigration Budget will match the United States up to 150,000.

ROOSEVELT: 150,000 to England - 150,000 to match that in the United States - pick up 200,000 or 300,000 elsewhere and we can start with Haifa million of these oppressed people.

A week later Ernst and his wife visited the President again.

ROOSEVELT: Nothing doing on the (rescue) programme. We can't put it over because the dominant vocal Jewish leadership of America won't stand for it.

ERNST: It's impossible! Why?

ROOSEVELT: They are right from their point of view. The Zionist movement knows that Palestine is, and will be for some time, a remittance society. They know they can raise vast sums for Palestine by saying to donors, "There is no other place for this poor Jew to go." But if there is a world political asylum... they cannot raise their money. Then people who do not want to give money will have an excuse to say, "What do you mean - there is no place they can go but Palestine? They are the preferred wards of the world."

Ernst was shocked and, without mentioning what Roosevelt had said, he approached his influential Jewish friends to try to get their support for a worldwide programme of rescue. As he described it himself in his own book, this was the response he got. "I was thrown out of parlours of friends of mine who very frankly said, 'Morris this is treason. You are undermining the Zionist movement.'" He also said that he found, everywhere, "a deep, genuine, often fanatically emotional vested interest in putting over the Palestinian (Zionist) movement" in men "who are little concerned about human blood if it is not their own.

Morris Ernest “ so Far So Good” p170

The other was Roosevelt set up a congressman to put through a bill that would allow the immigration laws to be relaxed and the past quotas suspended during the war to be added up and used to bring refugees over to the USA, this again as thwarted by US Zionists.


Yorky says and it is of course his opinion and oh! yes mainstream historians that Hitler had no time for Zionism yet facts such as them being given leadership rolls far and above their influence in the Jewish community says different. 
Zionism had a special place in Hitler’s Germany from the start. While left wing and union publications were being brutally suppressed including the German Jewish Bunds the papers of Zionism flourished, but it wasn’t just journals that had a special place, The only flag allowed to fly in Germany other than the Swastika was the blue and white Zionist banner It created conflict world wide with other Jews Steven Wise writing in the Gongree Bulletin Baal is not Good Jan 4th 1937

Hitlerism is Satan’s nationalism. The determination to rid the German national body of the Jewish element, however, led Hitlerism to discover its “kinship” with Zionism, the Jewish nationalism of liberation. Therefore Zionism became the only other party legalized in the Reich, the Zionist flag the only other flag permitted to fly in Nazi-land. It was a painful distinction for Zionism to be singled out for favors and privileges by its Satanic counterpart. [22]

Yorky sites the heroism of the young Zionist fighters within the Warsaw Ghetto implying I do not. That there were not individuals who fought is not in question in fact is is we who claim Jews were more than capable of fighting given a leadership that also wanted to fight. If Yorky had read my earlier post he would have seen that I site the Zionist youth that broke from “ the mainstream” leaders of Zionism and joined forces with the Bund and Communists in that fight.

There is too much dishonesty in his post ( just look who his ally is )to deal with it all at once, in fact I am tempted to bin it its that bad. Match is on in a min will give a think then. But I again press my advice to you all read understand think for yourselves
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 08:54:31 pm by DannyD »
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #81 on: February 10, 2008, 03:55:09 pm »
Went to Anne Franks house in Amersterdam where she was hidden from the Germans and nearly everyone was in tears when they left.

For people to do this to other people is simply horrific, and we should never, ever forget.

I've spoken to people that have visited some of the camps and they said that there is still just something wrong there - birds don't sing and animals don't go near.

RIP all those that lost their lives.

Arguing about petty points here and there just seems somehow wrong IMO.

Terrible tragedy for the Jewish people and a Terrible Tragedy for Mankind.


Andy agree with most of what you say, but your post would be better on the  Holocaust memorial thread. This was split to from there allow the arguments surrounding the Holocaust to be debated freely.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #82 on: February 10, 2008, 07:14:06 pm »
There is too much dishonesty in his post ( just look who his ally is )to deal with it all at once, in fact I am tempted to bin it its that bad.

You sound furious. Was it really that bad? 

 ;)
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #83 on: February 10, 2008, 08:44:09 pm »
You sound furious. Was it really that bad?  

 ;)

Surpassed yourself in double speak. Again you rip into material you have never clapped eyes on, people you have no knowledge of and make rash accusations you can’t back up. I think sometimes you are just another wind up merchant with the added pain of thinking you are an intellectual.

Have you dropped The Kasztner case then? Did reality finally catch up with you. Nice touch of his getting the condemned to send postcards saying they are having a wonderful time and all is well.

Was he a member of The Stern Gang? Oh! no he was Mapi the Labour Party wasn’t he. Lovely fellow wasn’t he?  Dicking his mates wife while he was locked up by the Brits, that was one moral dilemma he did sort out the mistress went on the train the wife didn’t.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #84 on: February 11, 2008, 12:04:28 am »
Surpassed yourself in double speak. Again you rip into material you have never clapped eyes on
Ha ha. You always accuse me of this Danny. Why, I don't know. After all you are the google-king. I have a library of 20,000 books in my house and although (obviously) most are on Liverpool FC, I do have the odd one on the holocaust.

Have you dropped The Kasztner case then? 
I thought I said I'd come back to him later. Let me just check......Yep, 5th line of the post. Here it is:

The stuff on Kastner is amongst the most misleading, but I'll save that for another day.

Your 'crock' on Kastner is so full of 'shit' that I decided it would take a second flush to empty it.

But that second flush will come. Please be patient mate.
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Offline jambutty

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #85 on: February 11, 2008, 01:08:53 pm »

But that second flush will come. Please be patient mate.

There's a plumbing hardware manufacturer called Royal in the US that manufactures this 'flushometer'



Gives new meaning to the term royal flush.
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #86 on: February 11, 2008, 01:40:18 pm »

Your 'crock' on Kastner is so full of 'shit' that I decided it would take a second flush to empty it.

But that second flush will come. Please be patient mate.

Just make sure you back up with proper links everything you say. For someone with sooooooooooo!!!!!!!! many books ......(or are you claiming  the titles on Amazon)......you should know that there will be either at the bottom of each page, after each chapter or at the end of the book a list of notes that list the origins of quotes used in the book.
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Offline Julio

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2008, 04:06:08 pm »
One that DannyD, wearing his other hat (a fez, if I may be so bold)
tea all over my keyboard after laughing at that, nice one yorky
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2008, 06:07:07 pm »
tea all over my keyboard after laughing at that, nice one yorky

Like a bit of racist fun do you Julio, know him by the company he keeps.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #89 on: February 13, 2008, 12:36:18 am »
Like a bit of racist fun do you Julio, know him by the company he keeps.

Now then Danny our lad, who's racist? Me, Julio or "the company I keep"?
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Offline nyctex

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #90 on: February 13, 2008, 01:11:06 am »
you racist







Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #91 on: February 13, 2008, 07:42:29 am »
Now then Danny our lad, who's racist? Me, Julio or "the company I keep"?

Both ......."All Arabs wear Fez's" , "All Blacks have big dongs! "All Jewsw have big noses" the little apology an the end "I may be so bold" is asking for clearence.

Of course in your racist slur you dismiss my supory for the thousands of Jews fighting Zionism but hey! that doesn't fit does it.

Surely in all those books you have in your back room at home there has to be something about the philosophy of honesty and integrity, or is that the one that keeps the door ajar.
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Offline Julio

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #92 on: February 13, 2008, 12:38:47 pm »
The Philosophy of Political Correctness keeps my door ajar DannyD

A touch sensitive Danny, if I may be so bold
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #93 on: February 13, 2008, 01:20:16 pm »
All Jewsw have big noses.

Yossi has quite a big nose, I suppose.
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Offline El Campeador

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2008, 03:26:01 pm »
Hahahaha.

Nobody wears a fez these days still do they? I mean apart from the silly Scousers in Istanbul? God if they only knew what it meant there lol.

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2008, 03:26:35 pm »
Yossi has quite a big nose, I suppose.

And I have big schlong.

Offline jambutty

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2008, 03:33:41 pm »
And I have big schlong.

Link?  (Ewwwwwww).
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2008, 04:12:23 pm »
Hahahaha.

Nobody wears a fez these days still do they? I mean apart from the silly Scousers in Istanbul? God if they only knew what it meant there lol.

They did know, the club and fans groups advised that wearing a Fez would be seen as offensive to the local population, I didn't see a lot of them about in Istanbul so most fans took the hint. Even think there was a thread on here about what and what not to do in Istanbul.

Quote from: Rushian on May 31, 2005, 12:55:19 AM

Scotland on Sunday
Sun 29 May 2005
I was there, bought the red T-shirt and marvelled at Jerzy

ADAM PARSONS

Liverpool's supporters, of whom there were reams in the Turkish capital, were splendid. Of course they sang and partied in the days before the match, yet they did so with an element of restraint that endeared them to the locals.

Here's an example. On their way over, many had bought replica fez hats at Liverpool airport to wear to the game. But when they arrived in Turkey, they got a message asking them not to wear the fez, which many Turks regard as an insulting throwback to their imperial past.

So what happened? Well, if this had been an England game, you could be sure that the streets would still have been full of hard men deliberately wearing their fezes, intent on provocation, like a troupe of psychopathic Tommy Coopers. But instead, I didn't see one. Not one. They took the advice, and they acted upon it. I think Liverpool's fans deserve credit for that.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 04:26:27 pm by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #98 on: February 13, 2008, 07:37:37 pm »
I have posted the speech explaining the verdict passed by Judge Benjamin Halevi who presided over the Gruenvald – Kasztner case in Jerusalem, in its self it is a condemnation of not only Kasztner but an indictment of the activities of the Judenrates (Jewish Councils) that were dominated by Zionists. After the evidence given by survivors and those who knew Kasztner  and the verdict  the Israel population were demanding answers to the deaths of over 400,000  prisoners in Auschwitz and the Kasztner perjury which was instrumental in freeing what both the lower court and the Supreme court claimed was a war criminal.

Here is part of an artcle published in 1981 by British Anti-Zionist Organization/Palestine Solidarity, in spite of some reservations I could not have put it better.

 Public opinion in Israel was almost unanimous in demanding that Kastner and his associates should be put on trial. Remember that up to now it was Kastner's accuser who was on trial. The Communist Party newspaper Kol Ha'am (Voice of the People) wrote: All those whose relatives were butchered by the Germans in Hungary know now clearly that Jewish hands helped the mass murder" (23 June 1955)

In the authoritative Israeli newspaper Ha'aretz, the leading political journalist, Dr. Moshe Keren wrote:
Kastner must be brought to trial as a Nazi collaborator. And at this trial, Kastner should defend himself as a private citizen, and not be defended by the Israeli Government..." (14 July 1955).

*Haboker*, the pro-Government General Zionist party paper stated: The public wants to know the real facts about Kastner, and not about him alone. The only way to find out the truth is to put all the Rescue Committee people on trial and give them a chance to offer their defense." (23 June 1955)

But public opinion was not quite unanimous. The problem with bringing Kastner and his associates to trial was that his associates were the Government of Israel.

As the evening paper *Yedi'ot Aharonot* said:
If Kastner is brought to trial the entire government faces a total political and national collapse - as a result of what such a trial may disclose." (23 June 1955)

The Israeli Labour Government did not take up the outcry from the people instead they sought to clear his name and in so doing the name of Zionism by funding and directing an appeal in The Supreme Court. It was a political trial set up to re-write history omitting any wrong doing by Zionism, its leaders and agents in occupied Germany. This only poured oil on burning fires.

The anger that gripped Israel was expressed by Dr. Karlebach who wrote in Israel's largest evening newspaper, *Ma'ariv*: ........ What is going on here? The Attorney General has to mobilize all the government power, appear himself in court, to justify and defend collaboration with Himmler! And in order to defend a quisling, the government must drag through the streets one of the grimmest stories of our history! At 11 P.M. the verdict was given. At 11 A.M. next morning the government announces the defense of Kastner will be renewed - an appeal filed. What exemplary expediency! Since when does this government possess such lawyer-genius who can weigh in one night the legal chances of an appeal on a detailed, complex verdict of three hundred pages?! (24 June 1955)

At the appeal hearings before the Supreme Court, the Attorney General of Israel, Chaim Cohen, explained why the Government of Israel was defending Kasztner they of course did not tell the whole truth but enough was said to gain an opinion on their reasons

The man Kastner does not stand here as a private individual. He was a recognized representative, official or non-official of the Jewish National Institutes in Palestine and of the Zionist Executive; and I come here in this court to defend the representative of our national institutions." (Hecht, p. 268)

The truth of this statement cannot be denied. Kastner's collaboration was not that of an individual. It was the collaboration of the Zionist leadership.

So far, it has only been established that the Government of Israel continued to support a Nazi collaborator after the facts about his collaboration had been conclusively established in an Israeli court. But the story gets worse. The Supreme Court of Israel unanimously found that Becher was indeed a Nazi war criminal and that Kastner had without justification, and in the name of the Jewish Agency, helped Becher to escape justice. On this point Greenwald was acquitted of libel and Kastner was not 'fully rehabilitated'. The Supreme Court also accepted the facts established in the lower court - that Kastner deliberately concealed the truth about Auschwitz from the majority of Hungarian Jews in exchange for Nazi permission to take a thousand or so to Palestine. Again, Kastner was far from being 'fully rehabilitated'.

The Majority Judgement

But now comes the really nasty bit. After unanimously acknowledging these facts, the Supreme Court of Israel, by a majority of three to two, found that Kastner's actions were morally justifiable and convicted Greenwald of criminal libel for calling this 'collaboration'. Kastner's actions only proved that he was a Nazi collaborator.

It is the defense of these actions by the Government and Courts of Israel that prove conclusively that Zionism approves of Nazi collaboration. The majority of the Supreme Court of Israel did not rehabilitate Kastner. They joined him.

Let us read from the majority judgement of Supreme Court Judge Shlomo Chesin:
...

What point was there in telling the people boarding the trains in Kluj, people struck by fate and persecuted, as to what awaits them at the end of their journey

...Kastner spoke in detail of the situation, saying, 'The Hungarian Jew was a branch which long ago dried up on the tree'.

This vivid description coincides with the testimony of another witness about the Hungarian Jews, 'This was a big Jewish community in Hungary, without any ideological Jewish backbone' (Moshe Shweiger, a Kastner aide in Budapest, protocol 465).

I fully agree with my friend, Judge Agranot, when he states that, 'The Jews of Hungary, including those in the countryside, were not capable, neither physically nor mentally, to carry out resistance operations with force against the deportation scheme'...From this point of view no rescue achievement could have resulted by disclosing the Auschwitz news to the Jewish leaders there, and this...is a consideration which on can properly conclude that Kastner had in front of his eyes.
( DD this echos what Kasztner said himself in the first trial The Jews wouldn't fight, They all blame the Jews not the leadership)

...And I take one more step. I am certain that the silence of Kastner when he arrived in Kluj was premeditated and calculated and did not result from his great despair because of the helplessness of the Jewish community. Even then, I say, this is still not considered wilful collaboration and assistance in the extermination, because all the signs indicate that Kastner's efforts were aimed at rescue and rescue on a big scale.

..And towards the end I take one last step. In doing so I go very far and say that even if Kastner ordered himself to keep silent knowingly, in submission to the strong will of the Nazis, in order to save a few Jews from Hell - this is still no proof that he stained his hands by collaborating with the enemies of his people and carrying out their plan to exterminate most of the Jewish community in Hungary. Even if, through these activities of his - or rather, his omission - the extermination became easier. And as to the moral issue, the question is not whether a man is allowed to kill many in order to save a few, or vice-versa. The question is altogether in another sphere and should be defined as follows:
A man is aware that a whole community is awaiting its doom. He is allowed to make efforts to save a few, although part of his efforts involve concealment of truth from the many or should he disclose the truth to many though it is his best opinion that this way everybody will perish. I think that the answer is clear. What good will the blood of the few bring if everybody is to perish?

...As I said, I am not arguing with the basic factual findings of the learned President of the Jewish District Court (Judge Halevi) but it seems to me, with all due respect, that his findings do not, as of necessity, demand the conclusion he has arrived at. That is to say, collaboration on the part of Kastner in the extermination of the Jews. And that they better coincide with bad leadership both from a moral and public point of view.

.. In my opinion, one can say outright that if you find out that Kastner collaborated with the enemy because he did not disclose to the people who boarded the trains in Kluj that they were being led to extermination, one has to put on trial today Danzig, Herman, Hanzi, Brand, Revis and Marton, and many more leaders and half-leaders who gagged themselves in an hour of crisis and did not inform others of what was known to them and did not warn and did not cry out of the coming danger....

Because of all this I cannot confirm the conclusion of the District Court with regard to the accusation that Greenwald has thrown on Kastner of collaboration with the Nazis in exterminating the Jewish people in Hungary during the last war." (Hecht, ibid., pp.270-2)


In other words, the Court approved of Kastner's contempt for the Hungarian Jews and could not allow him to be condemned for doing exactly what many other Zionist leaders and half-leaders did - concealing their knowledge of the Nazi extermination plans so that Jews would board the trains to Auschwitz peacefully while their Zionist 'leaders' boarded a different train for Palestine.

The Minority Judgement

It cannot be said that all top Zionists leaders actively approved of Nazi collaboration in this way. Indeed the most precise answer to this sickening judgement of Judge Chesin is provided in the minority judgement of Supreme Court Judge Moshe Silberg:

I do not say that he was the only man who possessed information among the leaders. It is quite possible that somebody else as well does not have a clear conscience with regards to this concealment. But we are dealing here with the guilt of Kastner and we do not have to make judgements on the guilt of others.... The declaration of the learned Attorney General therefore shrinks into an opinion....'Kastner was convinced and believed that there was no ray of hope for the Jews of Hungary, almost for none of them, and as he, as a result of his personal despair, did not disclose the secret of the extermination in order not to endanger or frustrate the rescue of the few - therefore he acted in good faith and should not be accused of collaborating with the Nazis in expediting the extermination of the Jews, even though, in fact, he brought about its result.'

I am compelled to state that it is very difficult for me to conceive such an intention. Is this good faith? Can a single man, even in cooperation with some of his friends, yield to despair on behalf and without the knowledge of 800,000 other people? This is, in my opinion, the decisive consideration in the problem facing us.

The charge emanating from the testimony of the witnesses against Kastner is that had they known of the Auschwitz secret, then thousands or tens of thousands would have been able to save their lives by local, partial, specific or indirect rescue operations like local revolts, resistance, escapes, hidings, concealment of children with Gentiles, forging of documents, ransom money, bribery, etc. - and when this is the case and when one deals with many hundreds of thousands, how does a human being, a mortal, reject with complete certainty and with an extreme 'no' the efficiency of all the many and varied rescue ways? How can he examine the tens of thousands of possibilities? Does he decide instead of God? Indeed, he who can act with such a usurpation of the last hope of hundreds of thousands is not entitled to claim good faith as his defense. The penetrating question quo warrento is a good answer to a claim of such good faith...

If the superintendent of a big hospital lets thousands of sick people die so that he may devote himself to the sure rescue of one soul, he will come out guilty, at least morally, even if it is proven that he as an individual erroneously thought that there was no hope of saving the other patients. He is a collaborator with the angel of death. Either a complete atrophy of the soul or a blind involvement with complete loss of senses and proportion in his small but personal rescue operation could bring a man to such a gigantic, hazardous play.

And if all this is not enough to annul the claim of good faith which was put before us on behalf of Kastner by the Attorney General, then Kastner himself comes and annuls it altogether. Not only did he never make this claim, but his own words prove the contrary. He writes in his report to the Jewish Agency that the Committee sent emissaries to many ghettos in the countryside and pleaded with them to organize escapes and to refuse to board the trains. And though the story of these pleadings is untrue, and the silence of Kastner in Kluj is proven, the very uttering of these statements entirely contradicts the claim that Kastner had concealed the news about the fate of the ghetto inmates in good faith and only as a result of his complete despairing of the chances of escaping or resisting the Germans. You can not claim at the same time helplessness and activity. Anyway, such a claim is not convincing...

We can sum up with three facts:
A. That the Nazis didn't want to have a great revolt - 'Second Warsaw' - nor small revolts, and their passion was to have the extermination machine working smoothly without resistance. This fact was known to Kastner from the best source - from Eichmann himself - And he had additional proofs of that when he witnessed all the illusionary and misleading tactics which were being taken by the Nazis from the first moment of occupation.

B. That the most efficient means to paralyze the resistance with - or the escape of a victim is to conceal from him the plot of the coming murder. This fact is known to every man and one does not need any proof of evidence for this.

C. That he, Kastner, in order to carry out the rescue plan for the few prominents, fulfilled knowingly and without good faith the said desire of the Nazis, thus expediting the work of exterminating the masses.

And also the rescue of Becher by Kastner...He who is capable of rescuing this Becher from hanging proves that the atrocities of this great war criminal were not so horrifying or despicable in his eyes...I couldn't base the main guilt of Kastner on this fact had it been alone, but when it is attached even from afar to the whole scene of events it throws retroactive light on the whole affair and serves as a dozen proofs of our conclusion."(Supreme Court Judge, Moshe Silberg, 1957)


Conclusion

If that had been the majority judgement, one could say that whatever their attitudes to the Arabs, and whatever their past behaviour might have been under pressure, the Zionist leadership today did not advocate collaboration with the Nazis. But Judge Silberg's judgement was that of a minority. The Kastner case is therefore not an alleged episode in past history. It is a continuing controversy in which the top Zionist leadership of Israel stand indicted of continuing to publicly defend collaboration with the Nazis in the extermination of Jews.

Despite the unanimous finding of the Supreme Court of Israel that Kurt Becher was a major war criminal, the Jewish Agency (World Zionist Organization) refused to withdraw the fraudulent certificate Kastner gave on their behalf, which saved Becher from hanging, and allowed him to remain a free man in West Germany, the head of several corporations and with an estimated personal worth of $30 million. Becher has even used his certification as a 'good' SS officer to give evidence in support of his associates at other war crimes trials in West Germany.

Since the prosecution, representing the Israeli Government agreed with the Supreme Court that Becher was a major war criminal, one can only pressure that the Israeli Government did not want him put on trial for fear of what might come out. Likewise, none of Kastner's associates on the Zionist Relief and Rescue Committee or his bosses in the Jewish Agency have ever been put on trial as demanded by Israeli public opinion. Let alone the hundreds of 'prominents' who helped Kastner to reassure the Hungarian Jews that they were going to Kenyermeze and not Auschwitz, in exchange for tickets on the one train that took them eventually to Palestine.

As for Kastner himself, he will cause no further embarrassment to the Zionist leadership with his undisputed claims that everything he did was approved by the Jewish Agency (World Zionist Organization) leadership in Palestine. He is 'now dead'. Or putting it less delicately, on 3 March 1957 he was shot by Zeev Eckstein - immediately after the appeal hearings were concluded, and before the judgement 'rehabilitating' him was delivered. Eckstein was not a Hungarian avenger. He was a paid undercover agent of the Israeli secret service. (Hecht, ibid., p.208).

Another 'fantastic allegation' no doubt; but admitted in court during the murder trial.

The facts of the Kastner case show that the very existence of the Jewish Agency (World Zionist Organization) was an actual help to the Nazis and that more could have been saved if the Zionist movement had not existed. Having a State that approves of actions like those of Kastner for an insurance policy, is like using petroleum for a fire extinguisher.

(extracted from a pamphlet issued by BAZO-PS (British Anti-Zionist Organization/Palestine Solidarity, in 1981)
« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 08:09:41 pm by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #99 on: February 13, 2008, 07:52:28 pm »
I have posted the speech explaining the verdict passed by Judge Benjamin Halevi

But this verdict was overturned in the Supreme Court you dummy.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #100 on: February 13, 2008, 09:02:00 pm »
But this verdict was overturned in the Supreme Court you dummy.

Have you read it? I doubt that. This post  analyses the ruling of the Supreme court quotes from the Majority and Minority judgement and gives a pretty sound expnation as to how and why the appeal was granted.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #101 on: February 13, 2008, 09:15:29 pm »
Kasztner wasn't vindicated he got off with a moral judgment. The supreme court judges say they had no argument with the evidence

 Supreme Court Judge Shlomo Chesin"...As I said, I am not arguing with the basic factual findings of the learned President of the Jewish District Court (Judge Halevi)"

 it was that the lower courts verdict was not to their liking well 3-2 anyway, they found 5-0 that he had lied to save Becher and the minority Judges didn't pull any punches there did they. He was acquitted by a political trial but events have shown that Zionism has never buried this case. On;y last week a law journal in the USA took it up siting it as the case that changed the way The Holocaust is viewed

« Last Edit: February 13, 2008, 09:19:59 pm by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #102 on: February 16, 2008, 02:25:33 am »
THIS POST IS MOVED BY ME FROM ANOTHER THREAD THAT THIS TOPIC LEAKED INTO


 ::)

Yorky has decided to keep this going in this thread so here goes …… Yet again Yorky shoots the messenger and leaves the message untouched. Not one shred of evidence to dispute what has been quoted by Judge Halevi. Just another character assassination. This time using the quotes from Tom Segev he accuses the judge of political manipulating the timing of the verdict, that may well be the case but that only tells us that the verdict had to be cast iron or the tide would be turned against Halevi.
Political manipulation is a tool of politics Ben Gurion was a past master at it, so the Labour Party Mapia could not have any qualms about it. The appeal case was not a political case then Yorky?

What interest us is the case itself and the evidence that Yorky dismisses or claims to be a pack of lies and now a frame up. So much evidence against Kasztner not only in the Freedom Train of the Prominents, but his involvement in allowing a war criminal to get off scott free and become a billionaire off the proceeds of money looted from the dead of Auschwitz. The judge just couldn’t invent the testimony of those who stood in front of Kasztner and pointed their fingers at him. Even his colleagues testified as to his actions in silencing the thousands to save his own and The Prominents.

 Halevi was a respected legal expert, a German Jew whose political leanings couldn’t have seen him in a bad light with Ben Gurion’s government. The Zionist leaders show trial of Eichmann was so important he allowed this “enemy” of his to be one of the three judges on the panel that tried Eichmann. It is not enough for Yorky using Segev to just dismiss the learned Judge out of hand. I will know better about Segev in a day or two.

The evidence convicted Kasztner. Now if you want a political trial the appeal was a bute.  Yorky says Kasztner was vindicated and the appeal overturned the early libel case. As always you get half (if you are lucky) of the truth.

He was found “guilty” by a 5-0 verdict of helping a war criminal to escape justice. On a 3-2 split he was acquitted of  collaboration with the Nazis if that is vindication that is news to me. Go to the Holocaust History thread there is a post from me giving the verdicts including the Minority Verdict The leading judge who took the appeal quickly brushed over the collaboration of allowing a known war criminal to go free. Talk about a political time bomb going off.  Kasztner gave evidence on a licence from the Jewish Agency in Palestine and the WZO, both of whom were dominated by Ben Gurion and Mapia after the trial the two organisations were asked to overturn the licence allowing SS Colonal Kurt Becher  to be arrested and re tried, they both refused, why do you think that was?

The minority judgement of the Appeal, laid into Kasztner harder than Halevi, they leave nothing to chance or confusion. Again see the post in the Holocaust History thread. To say he was vindicated is standing reason on its head. I was laughed at for saying Kasztner execution by a clandestine member of another Zionist group also a paid agent of the Israeli state, was an indication as to his guilt. That stands, if he was vindicated and innocent why kill him. Yorky expects me to see the nice and not so nice about the politics of Zionism does he expect me to choose between them. Like should I be bitten by a rat or a mad dog all the same to me. Grunvalds pamphlet was dripping in venom so what, we are dealing with Zionist against Zionist here, but did he have right on his side. The world says yes, in spite of Yorky and others of the New Historian sect who would like us to believe otherwise.
 
« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 02:14:01 pm by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #103 on: February 17, 2008, 03:21:22 pm »
what hope is there for peace when you read some of the bile going off in this little thread in cyberworld.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #104 on: February 17, 2008, 05:14:35 pm »
what hope is there for peace when you read some of the bile going off in this little thread in cyberworld.

Rosie do you think peace will come about by ignorance? Maybe Hitler was killing 11 million in gas chambers so as his desire that a 1000 year Reich would live in peace.  I would also argue that being a slave allows you to live in relative peace.

« Last Edit: February 17, 2008, 08:04:27 pm by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #105 on: February 18, 2008, 03:29:39 pm »

“I am sorry to bother you about the Jews. I know what a bore this is” (Richard Law to Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden, March 18th 1943)

DannyD’s history is bad history. It always begins at the wrong end. He’s not interested in understanding the holocaust; he’s interested in proving a case against Israel. Consequently he takes his information from a small number of websites dedicated to his own unshakeable view that Israel is illegitimate. He also takes what he imagines to be Israel’s best argument for existence – that it became a place of refuge for Jews during and after the Nazi genocide – and tries to show how systematically wrong that view is. In his version of history, rather than opposing the Nazis, ‘the Zionists’ are said to have welcomed them and done their bidding and ‘Zionism’ is blamed for collaborating in the destruction of 6 million Jews. According to DannyD, ‘the Zionists’ stymied international efforts to rescue European Jews if that rescue fell short of giving those Jews a home in Palestine. They undermined resistance movements. They struck secret deals with the Nazis that condemned millions of Jews to death in order to get a select few ‘Zionists’ away from the gas chambers and into Palestine. Israel was therefore built on a lie - it received moral support and international backing because of a holocaust that could not have happened without the enthusiastic input of ‘the Zionists’ themselves. Today, the Israeli Jews shed crocodile tears over the victims and throw billions of dollars at historical research to conceal the truth and maintain the lie.

I think those are the main points. You’ll find them all in DannyD’s posts – not as eloquently stated perhaps ;), but they are all there.

I have destroyed this vile interpretation before – in this post here:


DannyD couldn’t engage with it. Indeed his considered response was “to bin it”. Then he went to his favourite conspiracy website and started all over again…. with the case of Rudolph Kastner. I’ve already corrected some of this, but out it still pours of DannyD in post after turgid post. Here again, in summary, is what DannyD says about Kastner.

Kastner, a Jewish leader in occupied Budapest, is meant to have committed nearly all of the ‘Zionist’ sins in microcosm. According to DannyD, Kastner “worked with” his “soul mate” Adolf Eichmann to slaughter almost a million Hungarian Jews. In return for a rescue-train containing 1600 elite ‘Zionists’ bound for Palestine, Kastner agreed to help Eichmann not only by keeping Auschwitz a secret from the mass of Hungarian Jews who were about to be deported there, but by actively forcing Auschwitz inmates to send postcards back to their relatives saying “everything was ok and not to worry”.

In this post I shall nail this lie - and many others too. I’ll try and describe what happened in real life. I’m under no illusions that DannyD will change his habits and actually engage with what I say. He’s both immune to the ordinary rules of logic and ideologically programmed to reject historical facts that don’t fit his preconceived idea that Israel is “illegitimate”. So this post is for anyone interested in the story of Kastner and what truthfully happened to the Hungarian Jews.

My aim is not to show, in contradiction to DannyD, that Israel is “legitimate”; still less that all its actions against the Palestinians are justified. My only aim is to rescue the truth of what happened from the ideologically-driven garbage posted by DannyD. 

* * *

The Nazis move into Hungary
On 19th March 1944 the Nazis occupied Hungary. They did so with the active support of the right-wing and anti-semitic Hungarian government led by Miklos Horthy. For the first time in the war this put Hungary’s million Jews directly into the Nazi firing line, and some time in early April Adolf Eichmann of the SS was sent to Budapest to coordinate the transportation of Hungary’s Jews to Auschwitz. As always, Eichmann summoned the city’s leading Jews.

One of them was Rudolf Kastner. Eichmann understood he was a prominent zionist in the city, but for a year Kastner had also been executive director of the Va’adah, an underground Jewish rescue committee. Since 1943 the Va’adah had helped thousands of Jews escape from occupied Slovakia and Poland into Hungary where they were given papers, jobs and accommodation. In Hungary they stayed. It was difficult to smuggle them out of Hungary for the same reason that it was difficult to smuggle any Jew out of Hungary – the country was surrounded on all sides by Axis powers. It also had a deeply anti-semitic population which was not inclined to provide aid or protection to the Jews. Indeed once the Nazis had withdrawn from Hungary in early 1945, a home grown fascist movement called the Arrow Cross took control of government and murdered up to 30,000 Hungarian Jews without any German help at all. This didn’t make Kastner’s job an easy one. Perhaps even DannyD might recognise that.

Another part of Kastner’s job at the rescue committee was to look into the possibility of a Jewish armed response to the Nazis. The uprising of the Warsaw ghetto a year before had shown what might be done, even though it had been suppressed. But Hungary was different. It’s a matter of hstorical fact that the best-armed and most militant Jewish groups in central Europe in the late ‘30s, early ‘40s were the socialists and zionists. But both groups were weak in Hungary – the zionists representing less than 5% of the Jews there (Y Bauer, Jews for Sale? Yale UP 1994 p. 122).

This is what ammunition Va’adah possessed in 1943-44: one hundred revolvers with 20 bullets per revolver, 2 machine-guns, 2 machine-gun belts and 7 rifles. In the town of Munkacs a number Jews had tried to resist a shop being looted by the Nazis in April. The SS had simply turned their guns on them.  Twenty-seven people had been executed on the spot (RL Braham, The destruction of Hungarian Jewry – a documentary account 1963 pp. 906-21). Clearly, an armed uprising was just not possible. The Hungarian Jews could have used their fists and feet, I grant, but nobody sensible has ever claimed they were simply waiting for a lead from people like Kastner so that they could get stuck into the SS and the Hungarian police.

What was known about Auschwitz
DannyD wants us to believe, however, that Kastner and ‘the Zionists’ had a secret that only they knew and which, if it had been disseminated, would have resulted in widespread rebellion. Kastner knew that the Hungarian Jews were about to be deported to a certain death in the gas-chambers at Auschwitz. The reason he knew this was because two young Slovakian Jews had just escaped from Auschwitz to tell the tale.

On 10th April 1944 Rudolf Vrba and Alfred Wetzler had got out of Auschwitz – the first ones to do so. Eleven days later they had managed to cross the border into Slovakia and make contact with members of the Jewish Slovakian underground. The two young fellows were remarkably well informed. They had a detailed knowledge of the gas chambers and crematoria in Auschwitz and they had overheard SS guards looking forward to eating “Hungarian salami” in the coming weeks (many deported Jews brought food on the transports which was always confiscated by the SS on arrival). On the 27th April Vrba and Wetzler dictated everything they knew about the camp to the Slovaks – the document was called ‘The Auschwitz Protocol’. It is one of the great documents of the holocaust. And Vrba (who many may remember from the film Shoah) was one of the genuine Jewish heroes to emerge from this catastrophe. 

Nobody knows for sure when Kastner, in neighbouring Hungary, was given a copy of Vrba’s document. “To this day”, says Saul Friedlander in his recent massive work on the holocaust, “it isn’t exactly clear how long it took to reach the Jewish council in Budapest” (The years of extermination vol 2, 2007 p. 614). But obviously it would have been a priority amongst the Slovakian Jews to supply their interested friends in Hungary with one. There’s certainly no doubt at all that Kastner knew about Auschwitz by the time he was ordered to report to Eichmann.

A more interesting question – which DannyD has never asked – is whether anyone else in Hungary knew about Auschwitz. Or was Kastner sitting on an amazing secret? In other words, were the Hungarian Jews living in blissful ignorance while Kastner alone held the key to their destruction? Obviously the answer to these questions affects what we think of Kastner’s behaviour in the ensuing weeks.

Here’s some background…..On 15th April 1944, five days after Vrba and Wetzler escaped from Auschwitz, but while they were still working their way to the Slovakian border, the concentration of Hungary’s provincial Jews began. The Budapest Jews were crowded into buildings near the railyards and factories to deter any Allied bombing of Budapest (we’d call them “human shields” now I suppose). For the provincial Jews, five zones were set up to contain them. They had already been forced to register and wear the yellow star back in March, but now they were forcibly moved into improvised concentration camps. DannyD claims to have read Raul Hilberg’s book, The Destruction of the European Jews, so no doubt he remembers the description of this April round-up by the SS, the BdS and the Hungarian army (volume 2 pp 830-36) – the mass arrests, the foirced evictions, the selective murder of “dangerous Jews”, the lootings and confiscations. Thousands of Jews were pushed into brickyards in Cluj and Kosice, many hundreds dying there through the sheer inability to move or eat. One person managed to smuggle a letter out of the Kosice brickyard which has survived. “We are suffering beyond description”, it said. “The place is sealed, I do not see a way out..We are so neglected we do not look human anymore… Best greetings to you all, pray for us that we shall die soon” (quoted by David S Wyman, The Abandonment of the Jews New Press 2007 p. 236). What are the chances that other letters were smuggled out? Or that word got around that people were dying in these camps?

The fact is we know that word got out. Even before the round-up, Gerhart Riegner of the World Jewish Congress in Geneva had telegraphed colleagues in America with reports that the Nazis planned to annihilate the Hungarian Jews. This was early April, while Vrba was still in Auschwitz (Wyman, Abandonment p. 236). The information was passed to the War Refugee Board, the arm of the US government dealing with the fate of Europe’s Jews. They in turn told the International Red Cross, the neutral Swedes and Portuguese, and the Vatican. All were urged by the Allies to increase their physical presence in Budapest and to start putting diplomatic pressure on the Horthy government there. The British were also told about the cable, and in April the BBC started broadcasting warnings to the Hungarians. Auschwitz wasn’t mentioned by name, but “extermination camps in Poland” were (Wyman p. 237). Warnings - including some from the youth wing of Kastner’s zionist group - were also sent to the provincial Jews of Ungvar, Chuszt and Mukacz, but apparently to little avail. Some of those sounding the warning were even treated as agent provocateurs (Y Bauer, Rethinking the Holocaust pp. 236-7, 306). 

Vrba’s and Wetzler’s report on Auschwitz was by far the most detailed that had been produced. But it’s wrong to assume that the world was in ignorance of either the genocide or Auschwitz before 27th April 1944. The British had known of extermination camps in Poland since July 1941. Successful decoding of Gestapo radio messages in occupied Soviet territory had given them the first clues. “The fact that German Police are killing all the Jews that fall into their hands should now be sufficiently well appreciated” ran one British report from September of thast year (Breitman Official Secrets Hill and Wang 1998 p. 96). In June 1942 the underground socialists of the Polish Bund had managed to send a report to London on the Treblinka, Belzec and Sobibor camps which estimated that 700,000 Jews had already been killed (Y Bauer, When did they know? Midstream 1986). Then, on August 4th 1942, thanks to a leak by a prominent German businessman, Dr Gerhard Riegner of the World Jewish Congress in Geneva was able to send his famous cable to the West warning that the Nazis had developed “prussic acid” (Zyklon-B) with the aim of killing Jews on an assembly-line basis in Polish extermination camps (Bauer, Rethinking the Holocaust 219-21).

The name ‘Auschwitz’ did not mean anything yet. But all that changed on 27th November 1942 when a Polish journalist called Chciuk-Celt contacted the Polish government-in-exile (in London) with the news that Jews and Soviet POWS were being shipped there “for the sole purpose of their immediate extermination in gas chambers”.  On 23rd March 1943 the Delegatura, a Polish underground group, reported the building of a new crematoria that could dispose of 3000 bodies per day. In May 1943 a Polish intelligence report told the British government that 520,000 Jews had been killed in Auschwitz (D Engel, Facing the Holocaust Chapel Hill 1993 p. 23; Breitman, Secrets pp116-17).

Many of these reports found their way on to the BBC which, naturally, was not slow to broadcast them to occupied Europe. In one respect, at least, the Hungarian Jews were the best informed Jews in eastern Europe. Unlike the former Soviet territories where people – thanks to the Bolsheviks in the 1930s – did not have easy access to the BBC and foreign radio, the Hungarians were in a privileged position. According to British intelligence estimates there were over 800,000 Hungarian radio sets capable of picking up BBC broadcasts in March 1943 (Bauer, Rethinking p. 226). It is highly likely, to say the least, that some of these sets picked up the broadcasts of 1942-43 describing what was happening to the Jews of Poland, Ukraine, Byelorussia and Czechoslovakia.

So why is there the impression that nobody knew about Auschwitz until the spring of 1944?  Vrba’s report supplied more detail about the internal workings of the camp than had ever been revealed before. But it’s simply bad history to assume it somehow broke the story – let alone that Kastner then sat on it and therefore effectively buried all news of Auschwitz. Indeed a second report on Auschwitz was smuggled into Switzerland a matter of days before Vrba’s. It came from a Slovakian railway-worker who had contacted the Jewish underground group in Bratislava to warn them that preparations were being made to transport Jews to Auschwitz via the Presov-Zilina-Bohumin line (Braham, The Politics of Genocide pp. 598-609). Along with the Vrba report, these details were sent immediately to Jewish groups in the West. These were then relayed to the Allied governments who, in turn, relayed them to the press.

On 10th May (13 days after the protocol had been completed, and 5 days before the deportations began) the New York Times had led with a story about how the Hungarian government “is now preparing for the annihilation of the Hungarian Jews”. Then Allied aircraft dropped leaflets onto Jewish areas in Hungary warning them what was about to happen (Wyman 237-8).

That’s a lot of stuff! But let’s just assume for a moment that nobody in Hungary ever listened to foreign radio or heard of foreign press reports or picked up one of these leaflets. Would they still have had no other means of knowing what was happening in Poland? I’ve already mentioned the fact that thousands of Jewish refugees from Poland were able to make their way to the relative safety of Hungary in 1943 thanks to Kastner’s rescue committee. Presumably they let their Jewish rescuers know why they had taken flight. On top of that the 5000 Hungarian Jews, who had been conscripted as slaves into labour batallions in the Ukraine, came back to Hungary in the summer of 1943. Again, it’s inconceivable that these people didn’t report at least the rumours of what had been happening to Jews in the east (Bauer, Rethinking pp. 150-51).

Finally, there was the matter of the April 27th-28th  advanced deportations. On these two days the Nazis performed a kind of dress-rehearsal for the transport of the Hungarian Jews to Poland. Over 4000 Jews from Kistarcsa were rounded up and stacked into freight trains destined for Auschwitz (Hilberg vol 2 p. 836). By pure coincidence this was the day that Vrba and Wetzler dictated their ‘Auschwitz Protocol’. But could it be that these  trains set off without any incident? That’s very unlikley. One of the freights, from the brickyard of Kosice, proved to be something of a PR disaster for the Nazis. The freights had set off in the middle of the day with 70-80 people packed into each car and a single bucket of water between them. It was a hot day and by the time the freight rumbled through the town centre the women and children inside were said to be wailing so loudly that ordinary Hungarians going about their business could hear them. Fearing the secret was out the Nazis ordered that future transports should set off at night when things were less busy (Hilberg vol 2 p. 848).

But the secret was out. It had been impossible to conceal it. Indeed on May 10th, the very day the major deportations began, the Vatican representative in Budapest was able to write to Horthy and say: “The whole world knows what deportation means in practice” (the full letter, with its sickening residue of Catholic anti-semitism, is quoted by Hilberg pp. 837-8).

“The whole world” may have been a pardonable exaggeration. But DannyD wants us to believe that only Kastner knew!  It can’t have been so. Once again, as someone who claims to have read Hilberg’s volumes, DannyD is surely aware that as early as April and first week of May thousands of Hungarian Jews had tried to convert to Christianity (a successful tactic until the Hungarian authorities demanded a 3-month probationary period). He’ll also recall the desperate Jewish attempts to purchase forged Hungarian birth certificates and bribe their way into the labour batallions. And how could he forget the stories of Jews walling themselves into buildings and hiding in the earth in the Mukachevo, Oradea and Tizab ghettoes? (Hilberg vol 2 pp. 841-2) All very strange behaviour for people who believed that they were boarding trains destined for ‘model work camps’.

I’m sure he hasn’t read Robert Rozett’s work on ‘Halutz’, the zionist resistance group, so I’ll excuse him that. But if he had he’d also know that Halutz was able to smuggle 2000 Jewish children into Rumania. and to work with the Swedish embassy to forge diplomatic papers to rescue even more (Rozett, ‘Child Rescue in Budapest 1944-45’, Holocaust and Genocide Studies 2/1 1987 pp. 49-59; Asher Cohen, The Halutz Resistance in Hungary 1942-44 1986). Auschwitz may not always have been known by name. But most historians agree that the Hungarian Jews nonetheless knew that it was fatal to board the trains. The problem wasn’t that Kastner hadn’t personally told them. “The problem was that people refused to listen, refused to believe what they did not want to hear was the truth” (Y Bauer, ‘The Holocaust in Hungary’, in D Cesarini ed, Genocide and Rescue OUP 1977 pp 196-7). The same had been true in Poland and the Ukraine. Now it was true in Hungary.

Kastner and Eichmann
This is the historical context in which Kastner first met Eichmann. DannyD is completely useless on this meeting. He talks about it as if Kastner and Eichmann are equal partners in a joint enterprise. That’s because he’s either an anti-semite and hates Jews or he’s an anti-Zionist and hates Israel. To give him the benefit of the doubt, let’s say it’s the latter - that he hates 'Zionists'. But whatever the reason for his hatred it allows him to say of Kastner: “He walked about as a Nazi, acted like one, and he had the same control over life and death as them”. Wow. That’s a lot of power! He makes it sound like Kastner could have marched into Eichmann’s office (or did Eichmann used to come to Kastner’s office perhaps?) and say: “Right, I’m calling the whole thing off. There won’t be any more deaths. In fact I’m closing Auschwitz as from this morning. The genocide’s over”. You have to be twisted to believe this. But DannyD does believe it: “Kasztner had it in his hands to do as he wished”. Like I said, such a wild comment might be interpreted as anti-semitic for the simple reason that it mirrors what classic political anti-semites have always said about the Jews, indeed what the Nazis always said about the Jews – they secretly controlled everything. “They could do as they wished”.

So what did Kastner really do? Before I answer that I want to clear up some errors of DannyD’s so that we can all be sure about what he did not do.

*Kastner never met Vrba

*Kastner never went to Auschwitz.  Therefore he never personally selected people in Auschwitz for his rescue-train . Indeed no one at Auschwitz ever stepped on to a rescue-train of any kind. 

*Kastner never went to Bergen-Belsen dressed in an SS uniform. Vrba was not an “eyewitness” to this because a) he never saw Kastner in his life b) had never been to Belsen himself.

*Vrba was not written out of holocaust history by the Israelis. Indeed he was given an honorary doctorate by Haifa University. His book I escaped from Auschwitz is published in Hebrew by Zmora Bitan and Haifa University Press. Vrba also appeared on the most-watched documentary series in the history of Israel – The Holocaust (1977). Similarly Wetzler’s testimony forms the backbone to Livia Rothkirchen’s study The Destruction of the Slovakian Jewry, published in Jerusalem by Yad Vashem in 1961. 

*The rescue train organised by Kastner never went to Palestine. It went to Switzerland. And from Switzerland it went on to Spain. Eichmann indeed had specified that the refugees must not be allowed to go to Palestine. He didn’t want to upset the Nazi relationship with the Grand Mufti.

*Kastner did go to Switzerland in 1944, and he did voluntarily return to Budapest (in order to save more Jews)

*Kastner was not accused of filling the rescue train with “Zionists”. In fact the reverse is true. He was originally accused of ignoring Zionists and filling it with “Christianised Jews”.

*Kastner did not “get prisoners waiting to go to the gas chambers to send postcards from a ‘model work camp’”.

The last error is a particularly nasty one. It gets repeated a lot by DannyD-types. It’s basis is a confused accusation made by a witness at the orginal libel trial in 1953 – a piece of hearsay, that was never substantiated nor corroborated. Even Judge Halevi, who was very hard on Kastner throughout the trial, declined to include the story in his massive summing-up. My god, even Jim Allen in his hostile and unintentionally hilarious play Perdition, was persuaded to drop this charge from the published version of the play.

A moment’s thought, if DannyD were capable of such a thing, would show how ludicrous the charge is - especially if you take the DannyD line that no Hungarian Jew knew where they were being deported to. What a risk to get condemned men and women in Auschwitz to write back to their relatives in Hungary! A single clever line could blow the whole game!

I’ll give DannyD a little help though. Look at Hilberg vol 2 p. 836. Maybe this is where the story originates. It concerns the advanced transports from Kistarcsa to Auschwitz on April 27/28th (before Vrba’s Auschwitz Protocol was disseminated). At Auschwitz, according to Hilberg, a number of arrivals were forced by the SS to write “encouraging cards with datelines from ‘Waldsee’ to relatives at home.  The notes were brought by SS courier to Budapest, to be distributed there by the Jewish council. Members of the council examining the cards looked for the place on the map and could not find it. Finally one card was spotted that bore the traces of the erased word ‘Auschwitz’. By then, however, the deportations were in full swing”. If anything, this illustrates the opposite of what DannyD has claimed!   

As for DannyD’s stupid idea that Eichmann and Kastner negotiated as equals, I don’t quite know what to say. You’d have to have read something about the power of the SS and the helplessness of the European Jews to appreciate that this could not have been so. “You seem extremely tense Kastner”, Eichmann is reputed to have said to him at one point during their meeting. “I am sending you to Theresienstadt for recovery. Or would you prefer Auschwitz?” (this was cited by Judge Agranat of the Israeli Supreme Court to dramatically illustrate how “unequal” the two men were). Eichmann and the SS had a million Hungarian Jews held as hostages. Kastner was trying to get something out of the situation - to save as many Jews as possible. This is not “collaboration” anymore than it is collaboration when a policeman tries to talk an armed gunman out of a school full of defencless schoolchildren.

Blood for Trucks?
When Judge Halevi came to pronounce on Kastner he made a controversial ruling that helped condemn him. He ruled that the story of Joel Brand and the so-called ‘trucks for blood’ offer was not germane to the case. No honest person now agrees. One cannot understand Kastner’s negotiations with Eichmann if one fails to also consider the simultaneous and much bigger negotiation conducted with Eichmann by Kastner’s colleague, Joel Brand. DannyD hasn’t mentioned this, which doesn’t surprise me at all.

On 8th May 1944 Brand, a senior member of the rescue committee, was ordered to Eichmann’s office where he was told that the Nazis would be prepared to release one million Hungarian Jews. Yes, one million! In return, Eichmann wanted Brand to secure for the Nazis ten thousand winterised trucks (the aim being to motorize the 8th and 22nd SS Cavalry divisions in Hungary). To achieve this Brand would be allowed to travel to Istanbul and link up with the Jewish Agency and the British consul. “You can assure the Allies that these trucks will never be used in the West” said Eichmann. As soon as Brand returned from Istanbul with a favourable answer Eichmann said he would release the first 100,000 Jews. The rest would follow as the trucks began to arrive – 100 Jews for every truck. When Brand asked how he could trust Eichmann’s word, Eichmann said “You think we are all crooks. You hold us for what you are”. This was a full week before the deportations to Auschwitz began. They met again on 15th May – the day the deportations to Auschwitz began. This time Eichmann said that if Brand were successful the Nazis would blow up Auschwitz.

What should Brand have done? He said later that he knew the Germans were desperately short of war material and that he believed that, at the very least, he might be able to buy time (the Red Army was pressing on Hungary’s borders). What, in any case, was the alternative? On 19th May Brand went to Istanbul.

This is where Kastner’s rescue-train came in. It was part of a ‘goodwill gesture’ agreed to by Eichmann – to show that his ‘blood for trucks’ offer was genuine. The train would contain 600 (later boosted to 1,684) Jews and would be allowed free passage to Switzerland and then Spain. In addition Kastner would pay Eichmann $1000 for each person allowed on the rescue-train.

Kastner’s first idea was to pack the train with children but the SS vetoed this believing it would cause too much publicity among the Hungarians (who were emphatically not the people Eichmann was trying to impress) as it passed through the various towns. ”. Many children were ultimately chosen, the majority Polish and Hungarian orphans (S Szita, Trading lives? Operations of the Jewish relief and rescue committee in Budapest, 2005 p. 91). But in the end 10 classifications of people were decided upon, including ‘Orthodox’, ‘Zionist’, ‘Prominent’, ‘Children’, ‘Refugees’, ‘Revisionists’, ‘Paying Persons’ (Hilberg vol 2 p. 844). A contemporaneous letter written by Kastner to his sister has recently been published which confirms this selection policy. In it Kastner says that “quotas” of “Chalutzim”, “Orthodox” and “Zionist” must be chosen (Ladislaus Lob, Dealing with Satan 2008 pp. 162-3). The result was, as one of the rescued said in Laurence Rees’s recent BBC documentary Auschwitz, a kind of “Noah’s Ark”. 

This is the way that Ladislaus Lob remembers it too in a book that was published in Britain last week (and which julio mentions above). Lob and his father, who was also on the train, were neither zionists nor prominent, “just lucky” (Dealing with Satan p. 270). DannyD wants us to believe that Kastner had confined his selection to “prominent Zionists” because that fits his conspiracy theory. Well, now’s his big chance to put the record straight. Ladislaus Lob, the escapee, is speaking at the ICA on 27 February at 1.00pm. You should come down DannyD and put him right!

In fairness I should add that Kastner ensured that many members of his family got on the rescue-train. I don’t know what to think about that. Does anyone? But, according to the Israeli Supreme Court, over 100 of his family members also did not make the train. What, surely, can be said, is that no selection could have been right. It was ‘Sophie’s choice’ writ large.

The rescue-train wasn’t Kastner’s only success. The other concession he extracted from Eichmann was on 7th June and involved the transfer of 18,000 Hungarian Jews to Vienna where the SS had alerted Eichmann to a shortage of slave labour. Once again, Kastner had somehow to raise the money to buy their ‘release’ (among other things he promised Swiss tractors which never arrived). Many of the Jews died in the factories, others died in Belsen, but the majority did survive (Hilberg vol 2 pp 846-47) 

But in the larger scheme of things Kastner failed. That much is bloody obvious. He hoped that the train would be the first of several. It wasn’t. But he failed because the Brand mission failed. Brand met up with British officials in Aleppo and Cairo in early June. But by the end he was banging his head against the wall in total despair. The Allies would not agree to the ‘blood for trucks’ deal for several reasons, not least the belief that it would jeopardise the Soviet alliance (as, indeed, it was meant to). Shamefully, a second reason why the Allies would not accept the “stunt” was (in the words of a British official) that it a successful exchange might “lead to an offer to unload an even greater number of Jews on our hands”. And the British had absolutely no intention of letting any Jewish refugees into Palestine (B Wasserstein, Britain and the European Jews pp. 249-53; Martin Gilbert, Auschwitz and the Allies p. 214).   

The 240,000 Budapest Jews were eventually saved from Auschwitz – and Vrba and Wetzler had much to do with that in the end. On 4th July Horthy announced that the deportations would stop. He had come under enormous pressure from neutral governments and the International Red Cross, and he was also rocked by the Allied bombing of Budapest two days before. The international outcry that forced his change of mind had come because of the wide publicity given to Vrba’s ‘Auschwitz Protocol’.

But Kastner failed. He failed to follow up the rescue-train with any more. He failed to stop the deportations to Auschwitz. But so did the Allies. Throughout May Kastner’s rescue committee – along with the Slovak Jews – were able to telegraph in code to Isaac Sternbuch, the Va’adah representative in Switzerland. What they were demanding was that the Allies bombed “the death halls in Auschwitz” and the single line of railway track that connected Kosice and Presov (Wyman, Abandonment 289-90). It was a demand that Weizmann at the Jewish Agency repeated in person to Churchill and Roosevelt in June and July. The Allies said it was logistically impossible (see my other post).

To sum up
The Jews of Hungary were murdered not because they were ignorant of what awaited them, but because they were powerless to resist and they had no help. They were also murdered by the Nazis and their Hungarian collaborators. They were not murdered by ‘Zionist’ Jews.

Kastner was faced with an unenviable task. He tried to negotiate with Eichmann because he believed that negotiations might save a million Jewish lives. Had the Brand mission succeeded we would, doubtless, be calling him a hero. That it failed was nothing to do with him. Hindsight showed that he had been wrong. But only a fool would use hindsight to condemn a man in court. This is why the Supreme Court exonerated him (posthumously, of course, because by then he had been murdered by an ultra-right wing Israeli avenger). Raul Hilberg sums it up perfectly when he says that Kastner’s rescue committee “had little reason to rejoice. Considering the impotence of Hungarian Jewry and the lack of outside support its success was remarkable. But weighed against the magnitude of the disaster, its accomplishment was little. When one must save lives, failure mans death”.  A humane judgment in my opinion.

The Kastner case must finally be understood against the background of Israeli society in the 1950s, and the great coming to terms with what had happened ten years before in Europe. Yehudi Bauer, the author of the book Jews for Sale?, blames “the trauma of the Holocaust” for the “baseless accusations” against people like Kastner. Their origin, he says, “lay in the despair and anger over the loss of so many. The fury was directed at those who tried to save lives”.

DannyD of course isn’t traumatised by the holocaust. His fury isn’t particularly directed at Rudolf Kastner, to whom I imagine he is supremely indifferent. All he wants to do is use the holocaust as a stick to beat ‘Zionism’. He’s quite prepared to drive a juggernaut through the facts to do this. That’s why his posts on this matter are rubbish.


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Offline Mimi

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #106 on: February 19, 2008, 05:47:26 am »
Thank you very much for the very detailed explanation setting out the issues so clearly, Yorkykopite. I don't know much about the Holocaust but I recently read Maus in a comics book literature course. I think one of its strongest message was how the survivors dealt with the transition to "normalcy" after their horrible experiences in the camps. I didn't kow about Kastner's story before, so thank you for the explanation.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #107 on: February 19, 2008, 08:56:34 am »
Thank you very much for the very detailed explanation setting out the issues so clearly, Yorkykopite. I don't know much about the Holocaust but I recently read Maus in a comics book literature course. I think one of its strongest message was how the survivors dealt with the transition to "normalcy" after their horrible experiences in the camps. I didn't kow about Kastner's story before, so thank you for the explanation.

Mimi maybe you should read this http://www.hirhome.com/israel/perfidy.pdf

The author has an axe to grind of that there is no doubt when wild animals fall out they are vicious, but read it for the facts that cannot be denied in the Kasztner case.

He was found to have collaborated to get a known war criminals free from the Nuremberg Trials. First by the lower court and again on a 5-0 verdict on appeal at the Supreme court.

The verdict that " vindicated" him of collaborating in the deaths at Auschwitz came out 3-2. you should pay attention to the minority judges verdicts. After the trial it was found that he had also tried to get free another two known war criminals.

The reason Kasztner’s case is still a major talking point in Jewish circles is that the sate of Israel was brought about through terror against the Arabs many of the methods used were those used against Jews in Germany by the Nazis. Those who were the leaders of Zionism then had the guilt of standing back while Jews perished in Europe.

For all Yorky bleats on about moral decisions those who died at Auschwitz would have put up resistance.

Yorky see you soon!
« Last Edit: February 19, 2008, 09:16:15 am by DannyD »
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #108 on: February 19, 2008, 09:53:48 am »
Thank you very much for the very detailed explanation setting out the issues so clearly, Yorkykopite. I don't know much about the Holocaust but I recently read Maus in a comics book literature course. I think one of its strongest message was how the survivors dealt with the transition to "normalcy" after their horrible experiences in the camps. I didn't kow about Kastner's story before, so thank you for the explanation.
A pleasure Mimi (thanks for reading it!)

The return to normality was obviously difficult and some (like Primo Levi, famously) never managed it. And, strangely, the hardest place for Jewish survivors to come to some kind of reckoning with the past was Israel itself.

There's a common assumption that Israel, as a society, was able to face the enormity of what had happened and deal with it. But that's just not so. For many years there was shame and anger in Israel at the very thought of the genocide - not just anger at the Nazis but anger and disbelief at the apparent meekness with which the millions had gone to their deaths. That's why Raul Hilberg's conclusion about how Jewish compliance didn't break "even at the awesome sight of the last ditch" touched such a nerve.

Kastner's trial needs to be placed in this context. Those who accused him of 'collaboration' - in court and in the papers - often had exaggerated images of the "new Jew" ('the Sabra') created by Israel. This new creature was, of course, nothing like Kastner and the European Jews who had tried to negotiate with the beast. He would have taken up arms and fought back - as indeed Israelis had done against their Arab neighbours. That there were such quisling creatures as Kastner, it was implied, was the best demonstration yet that a Jewish homeland was needed - to give some much needed backbone to the Jewish people.

The first trial provided the stage for a traumatic release of all these conflicting feelings. In a sense it had nothing to do with poor old Kastner and everything to do with Isarelis being forced to ask big and potentially embarrassing questions about the holocaust for the first time. Kastner was the meat in the bagel.

For all Yorky bleats on about moral decisions those who died at Auschwitz would have put up resistance.

Did I "bleat"? I don't think I did. Nonetheless I cannot imagine you using any other verb to describe the weighing of a moral dilemma.

But still, thanks for getting to grips with the historical issues in my post.

 


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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #109 on: February 19, 2008, 10:15:25 am »
Been away for a while and this is the first time I've dared dip back into this thread to see what is going on (I have UN observer status before you shoot).

Just one thing, DannyD I thought that your response to Tonypaj's perfectly reasonable question did you absolutely no favours and made you look pathologically defensive about your motives.  Just an observation.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #110 on: February 19, 2008, 06:28:55 pm »

I will cut this reply into short posts dealing with one or two items of Yorky's post as possible. This is a long haul there are so many distortions omissions and downright lies I will take time dealing with them all. I do not want to exasperate the good will of the readers with the usual one shot but long reply

I apologise in advance to any literal snobs that might be on here, I hope the rest understand that the content, the honesty, makes up for the poor grammar.

Kasztner’s case, we will call it that, although it was Hermin Gruenvald who was on trial for libelling Kasztner. Gruenvald was brought to court not by Krasztner the so called defamed, but by the Government of Israel. The trial was a shoe in so people thought, a week ten days the most, Krasztner began well and there was no hint of an upset. The Governments attorney Amon Tell is good enough they all thought to see of this upstart hotel owner Gruenvald.

But as the case begins to unravel the whistle is blown out goes Tell and in comes The Israeli attorney General himself  Chaim Cohen no less, to try a liable case? Hasn’t he anything better to do you may ask.

The people of Israel did ask and that alerted them to thnk something stinks here. Well no Cohen hasn’t anything better to do.The past and future of the leading Zionists, in fact the whole Zionist movement and the founding of The State of Israel is on the line here.
He addresses the court with probably the only honest contribution he makes during the trial.

 “ The man Kastner does not stand here as a private individual.  He was a recognized representative, official or non-official of the Jewish National Institutes in Palestine and of the Zionist Executive; and I come here in this court to defend the representative of our national institutions”.
 
What made this august and imposing figure rush down to the Jerusalem court house? He says it himself, on trial is the Israeli State and Zionism. The explosion that shuck him and his boss Ben Gurion into action was the revelation that Kasztner had lied the previous day and at a Nuremburg hearing some years back regarding an SS General Kurt Belcher, who was being held pending his trial for war crimes as a leading member of Himmler’s group that organised the deaths camps. We also hear that not content with getting the release of Becker he storms around Nuremberg looking for other SS officers to save, as one member of the US forces in charge of the Nuremberg trials sates.

Cohen at one time tries to shut the trial downearly, cut the losses some would say, but to no avail, the wheels of justice are in motion and running down the hill fast. As the days roll on Cohen the driver loses control of his leading animal Kasztner.
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #111 on: February 19, 2008, 06:31:22 pm »
The trial does not last 7 or 10 days it goes on and on for 9 months during that time Kasztner’s reputation as a hero of Zionism is ripped to shreds and lies rotten on the court room floor.

Witness after witness testifies that he kept the death camps at Auschwitz a secret from the Hungarian people and that they were going to a model work camp at Kenyermeze. They can take their family and everything will be ok. They packed food to sustain them on their journey. I don’t know anyone who knowingly is going to their deaths packs lunch, the German guards did call it Hungarian Salami, Yorky doesn’t see the significance of this.

Also is the claim that Kasztner ordered one of his men to make certain postcards were filled in by the prisoners and sent to their friends and family still not in the Death Camp process

Witness Levi Blum has some additional details. Blum is a workman and
a member of the Zionist party. He tells of a celebration for Kastner held in
Tel Aviv in 1948, by the List People of the train.

Blum had stood listeningto speeches lauding the “heroic Jew-rescuer, Dr. Kastner.”

Blum: Finally, I couldn’t stand it any more. I jumped up and yelled
out, “You people are making a big mistake about this Kastner.
He was the only Jew who was a close friend of the Nazis and
Eichmann.” And I yelled at Kastner, “You were a Quisling! You
were a murderer! You can sue me for what I say! I’m too poor to
take you into court. But I dare you to take me.” I also told him,
“I know that you, Kastner, are to blame for the Jews of Hungary
going to Auschwitz. You knew what the Germans were doing to
them. And you kept your mouth shut.” Kastner didn’t answer
me. I asked him, “Why did you distribute post cards from Jews
supposed to be in Kenyermeze?” Somebody yelled out, “This was
done by Kohani, one of Kastner’s men.”
Kohani was also in the hall. He jumped up and yelled, “Yes, I
got those post cards.” I asked him, “Who were they from?” He
answered, “That’s none of your business. I don’t have to explain
what I do to you.”

Judge Halevi: All this happened in public?

Blum: Yes, several hundred people were there.


Yes it probably was Nazi procedure to do this at other camps, but here we are dealing with Dr Kasztner and chums aren’t we? We don’t know who dealt out the postcards elsewhere but testimony in a court of law that went unchallenged, tells us in Hungary Kasztner’s Rescue Committee did the job.
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #112 on: February 19, 2008, 06:43:26 pm »
There was this veil of screcy that became evident at the trial also. Kasztner the creep he was tried to blame his Father in Law but the defence attorney Tamir was having none of it.

Jacob Freifeld of Kluj testifies. Freifeld and his family went on one of the
early trains to “Kenyermeze.” They arrived in Auschwitz. Freifeld escaped.
His family was incinerated. He tells Judge Halevi:

Freifeld: After the first train load left Kluj, all the jews were assembled
in the ghetto. Kohani [one of Kastner’s group] jumped up on a
platform and read aloud a letter he said was from a Jewish family
in Kenyermeze. The letter said the whole family was working at
good jobs and were all in good health and being well taken care
of. I had a friend, Hillel Danzig. We worked together earlier in
the Ukraine camps. In Kluj I asked him, “What’s the truth about
those letters Kohani read in public. Are they really true?” He
told me, “Yes, they’re true.” And he gave me a tip I should try
to go to Kenyermeze as soon as I could. Because the first arrivals
there would get the best places. So I decided to go on the next
train—instead of waiting for the last one. Yes, we all hurried to
get to Kenyermeze.

Tamir: Were you taken to Auschwitz on the train?

Freifeld: Yes.

Tamir: Did Hillel Danzig go to Auschwitz?

Freifeld: God forbid. How could such a thing happen! He was a
member of the Jewish Council—working hard with that clique. So
he remained with the saviors—safe. My own family—ten people—
were exterminated.

Judge Halevi: You believe that your friend sent you intentionally to
your death, and the killing of your whole family?

Freifeld: It is hard to believe he would do such a thing. But he did.
They all did it to save themselves.

Judge Halevi: Knowingly sent you and your family to death?

Freifeld: I can’t imagine that the people with whom I suffered would
send me intentionally to die in Auschwitz. But I don’t know what

Danzig’s political aim was in separating the masses from the leaders.

Danzig was a Zionist big shot in Kluj. He was taken to Budapest and
later to safety, with the 388 saved ones. At the time Freifeld testifies, he is
a leading Israeli journalist, one of the literary stars of Ben-Gurion’s paper,
Davar.

A peppery Danzig writes a letter to Judge Halevi denying the whole
Freifeld story: “I do not know a man named Freifeld and I can remember no
such incidents.”

The Israeli government remains uninterested in Mr. Danzig, the alleged
collaborator. It is Judge Halevi who invites the perturbed journalist to back
up his letter in court under oath.

Danzig, short and suave, enters the witness box.
The Judge asks Jacob Freifeld to stand up. He does, and identifies the
witness as Hillel Danzig he knew, to his sorrow, in Kluj.

Halevi asks Danzig, “Do you know this Jacob Freifeld? Can you identify
him as the man you knew in Kluj?”

Journalist Danzig faces the man who has accused him of helping murder
his family of ten to save his own skin. After a pause, Danzig answers in a
manner which affirms, denies and befogs a topic in a single sentence.

Danzig: I never knew him in Kluj, and I don’t remember any such
name. But now that I see him I remember him as one of the men
with me in the labor camp in Russia [a German camp].

Judge Halevi: Your letter denies the truth of his testimony.

Danzig: I can only repeat what I said in my letter. Freifeld’s charge
that I hurried him and his family to their deaths is preposterous.

Tamir: Freifeld said that you definitely told him that the trains go to
Kenyermeze.

Danzig: That is a lie.

Tamir: What reason can Freifeld, who suffered with you in the labor
camp, have to lie?

Danzig: The circumstances by which he came to give this testimony
require clarification. I don’t think it was he who decided to testify.

Tamir: Was he bought? Was he bribed with money? What is your
assumption, Mr. Danzig?

Danzig: I don’t know.

Tamir: I put it to you that Freifeld tells these facts about Kluj and
about you to his friends everywhere for the last six years.

Danzig: How does it happen that such talk did not reach me?

Tamir: You have refused to hear many things, Mr. Danzig.
Under persistent querying by Tamir, Danzig reluctantly admits that he
knew he was being taken “to a safe place,” and he knew, also, that people
like Freifeld would be taken to “a place much worse.”

Tamir pursues this important point—Danzig’s information.

Tamir: You met Kastner when he came to Kluj. What did you hear
from him?

Danzig: That the situation was grave.

Tamir: Drop your editorial clich´es. Did Kastner tell you they were
going to the gas chambers of Auschwitz?

Danzig: No.

When Danzig has departed the court room, the fact has been clarified—
Kastner told no one, not even his Agency chum Danzig, of Destination
Auschwitz. But, just as witness Freifeld said, the Important Ones peddled
the Kenyermeze myth.
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #113 on: February 19, 2008, 06:56:33 pm »
The same fact is established by the next witness, Yechiel Shmueli—from
Kluj. He is now an official in an Israeli Army camp.
Dark-haired, calm of manner, but with staring black eyes, Shmueli, from
Kluj, answers Tamir’s questions in a soft voice.

Tamir: When were you taken into the Kluj ghetto?

Shmueli: May 23, 1944.

Tamir: Did you know at this time that Jews were being exterminated
in Auschwitz?

Shmueli: No.

Tamir: Did you offer any resistance when you were put on the train?

Shmueli: No. Because we had all been told we were being taken to
Kenyermeze to work. The Jews in charge of the ghetto said to us,
“Brothers, you should know that the Hungarian authorities have
decided to empty Kenyermeze of its population, and all the Jews
of Hungary are going to be placed there until the end of the war.”

Tamir: What happened to you and your family in Auschwitz?

Shmueli: They separated us. I was sent to Warsaw to work in a
factory. My mother, wife, daughter and six-year-old grandson
were murdered by the Germans.73

Joseph Katz, a lawyer from the town of Nodvarod, four miles from the
Rumania border, testifies. He says the twenty thousand Jews of Nodvarod
knew nothing of the extermination program. He had been told the Jews were
being resettled, for their own good, in Kenyermeze.

Tamir: Did you know how to use arms?

Katz: Yes. It was easy to escape into Rumania. Jews were safe in
Rumania at that time. Some skeptics did escape—because they
didn’t like the Nodvarod atmosphere. I was sent to Auschwitz and
put to work in a large tailoring shop.

Tamir: What sort of tailor shop was it?

Katz: The clothes of the exterminated Jews were stored there. We
were given the clothes to repair.74

David Rozner, a steel mill owner from Kluj, now a member of Ben-
Gurion’s party, Mapai, testifies:

Tamir: When you returned to Kluj after the war, what was the general
opinion there of Dr. Kastner?

Rozner: There was a violent feeling against Dr. Kastner. If he had
showed himself in the street he would have been killed.

Judge Halevi: Why do you say that?

Rozner: Because he was the man who misled the Jews to believe in
the good intentions of the Germans


All this testimony is not out of some New Israeli Historian from “The Mainstream”  Holocaust Industry printshop, it is public record of the trial. Known officialy as The Attorney General v Malchiel Gruenvald – Criminal Case 124/53 in the District Court, Jerusalem.

They are real people who DID experience not only The Holocaust but the events leading up to their part in it.
 
That is all for tonight more later or tomorrow. Any one wishing to read further go to

http://www.hirhome.com/israel/perfidy.pdf
I lay before you a plan of freedom - adopt it, and you rid the world of inequality, misery, and crime. A martyr in your cause, I am become the prophet of your salvation.

Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #114 on: February 19, 2008, 07:12:18 pm »
Been away for a while and this is the first time I've dared dip back into this thread to see what is going on (I have UN observer status before you shoot).

Just one thing, DannyD I thought that your response to Tonypaj's perfectly reasonable question did you absolutely no favours and made you look pathologically defensive about your motives.  Just an observation.

All I asked him to do was stick to the theme within the thread, and leave what I do or don't do out of it. was that too much to ask. He came back later and did take up some issues within the theme, I answerd them,.

Methinks you doth protest too much sir.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #115 on: February 19, 2008, 07:19:44 pm »
All this testimony is not out of some New Israeli Historian from “The Mainstream”  Holocaust Industry printshop, it is public record of the trial. 
 
That is all for tonight more later or tomorrow. Any one wishing to read further go to

http://www.hirhome.com/israel/perfidy.pdf

Ach, jeezus Dan. There's 9 months of court transcripts to this case. Kastner, at the end of it, was dead  but his name had been cleared. The Supreme Court judges were amazed at the amount of hearsay that the District Judge allowed. Please don't bother posting any more of it.

Say something relevant or just post the link and leave it at that.


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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #116 on: February 19, 2008, 07:48:47 pm »
Kasztner wasn't vindicated he got off with a moral judgment. The supreme court judges say they had no argument with the evidence

Supreme Court Judge Shlomo Chesin"...As I said, I am not arguing with the basic factual findings of the learned President of the Jewish District Court (Judge Halevi)"

 it was that the lower courts verdict was not to their liking well 3-2 anyway, they found 5-0 that he had lied to save Becker and the minority Judges didn't pull any punches there did they. He was acquitted by a political trial but events have shown that Zionism has never buried this case. On;y last week a law journal in the USA took it up siting it as the case that changed the way The Holocaust is viewed



Is this the link you want, doesn’t say anything about hearsay there does it, in fact the leading judge says he accepts “ all the factual findings” you say he was saying they are hearsay, of course without backing them up. And no sorry let it all come out word for word. So there is no possible confusion on what is hearsay and what isn’t
 Those who gave testimony at the trial did so with their own free will, some as you can see (well others can anyway) are members of the same party as Kasztner, The Attorney General and Ben Gurion, so they didn’t have an axe to grind did they. The more you lie and claim me to be an anti Semite, the harder I push back, remember who we are.
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Offline BIGdavalad

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #117 on: February 19, 2008, 08:19:14 pm »
The more you lie and claim me to be an anti Semite, the harder I push back


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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #118 on: February 19, 2008, 09:57:04 pm »
DannyD: It scares me that people like you actually believe the things you advocate for... :o And please remember one thing: I don't know you - therefore I cannot judge you as a person. So please do not get the idea that you can get to know me (and therefore judge me) by reading my posts here. I'm simply scared by the things you seem to believe as the truth.

Yorky: Thanks for shooting back!!  ;D

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