Author Topic: The history of the Holocaust  (Read 53093 times)

Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #40 on: February 5, 2008, 04:03:41 pm »
The author is a man who was one of the 1,700 or so who was saved by Kasztner and travelled to Switzerland. He doesn't deny that his opinion of the man is somewhat subjective, and hence favourable, seeing as Kasztner saved his life.

However, he refutes the suggestion that Kasztner hand-picked only influential and powerful people - the author and his father were both poor Hungarian non-Zionists; in fact, there were several influential non-Zionists among the group - the name Teitelman rings a bell - albeit they did not, by any means, form the majority.
The group, according to the author, comprised of a broad selection of Jews from all walks of Hungarian life.

To be honest, Laudislas Lob (author) tries to be as objective as possible, and references (i would imagine, not having a detailed knowledge of the subject) all the people who criticised Kasztner.

As for the Eichmann testimony, I would wholly subscribe to Lob's view that to take anything that hangman said or testified seriously seems excessive to say the least.

You have me at a bit of a disadvantage; it looks as if you have either read the book or a revue that you trust. I haven’t so can only give you assumptions as to why Lob wrote in an “ objective” style, he was hardly likely not to do so seeing as he was refuting what is taken as fact by the majority.

The make up of the train is a controversial subject but again most historians put it as being hand picked by Kasztner. One account says prisoners stormed the train as it pulled out some managing to scramble aboard, did Lob mention this? Does Lob say what was his relationship with Kasztner?. The judge in the first trail was sure enough that he was guilty of all that was laid against him and for that to have happened in a case brought by the Israeli government says a lot. Even the appeal decision upheld the facts of the case but judged that he was right in his actions. If you take street justice as having a legitimate purpose his assassination also pointed to his guilt.

The case shook the Zionist establishment and the shock waves still do. Although this became high profile due to the liable action this is one case in many, which has at the centre the question of the immorality of the Zionist principle of Palestine or nothing.
It also highlights the hypocrisy of Zionists when they deal with The Holocaust.

PS as for Eichmann why would he say those things? it is not enough to dismiss what he says out of hand. There is also Kasztlers strange behavour at Nuremburg:- Kasztner went to Nuremberg after the war in an attempt to exonerate Nazi leaders, including SS colonel Kurt Becher and SS general Hans Juttner. In all Kasztner tried to save seven of Eichmann’s Gestapo colleagues. In his trial, Kasztner even stated that Himmler had helped him save Jews. B. Hecht, Perfidy, New York 1961, p.152

Kasztner was described by Robert Kempner, a senior official at the Nuremberg trial, as “running around at Nuremberg looking for Nazis he could save”. R. Linn, Escaping Auschwitz, New York 2004, p.51.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2008, 04:13:12 pm by DannyD »
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #41 on: February 5, 2008, 04:24:19 pm »
However, he refutes the suggestion that Kasztner hand-picked only influential and powerful people - the author and his father were both poor Hungarian non-Zionists; in fact, there were several influential non-Zionists among the group - the name Teitelman rings a bell - albeit they did not, by any means, form the majority.
The group, according to the author, comprised of a broad selection of Jews from all walks of Hungarian life.

Well spotted julio. This book comes out on February 14th according to your amazon link. That's the day that we all kiss and make up then?

The original charge against Kastner, I seem to remember, was that he stuffed the train full of "Christianised Jews". The charge that it was actually full of "Zionist Jews" came later. Now which is it? The Zionists said it was full of Christians, the Ultra-Left said it was full of Zionists. Maybe it was just Jews.........

What is clear is that he didn't try and save himself. Once the train had reached its Swiss destination Kastner returned to Nazi-occupied Hungary to try and secure the release of more Jews.

It is an enormously complex story and - unsurpringly - has become a political football, within Israel every bit as much as without. What doesn't help is the unsubstantiated gossip that gets passed for genuine historical fact. Kastner parading in an SS uniform in Belsen is one such piece of gossip. It sounds good, but unfortunately there's no evidence for it. No one who was there remembers it (kind of unusual you'd think). And not even Eichmann, who was trying to save his skin by blackening Kastner, mentioned it.

Here I agree with julio's comment:

As for the Eichmann testimony, I would wholly subscribe to Lob's view that to take anything that hangman said or testified seriously seems excessive to say the least.

Asking Eichmann about the character of Kastner (as the Dutch journalist did in 1955) is like someone asking the Yorkshire Ripper about the character of the women he raped. Eichmann says something like "Oh, he was like me. We had the same ideas". No sensible person would give this any more credence than if the Ripper said of one of his victims: "Oh she was like me. Really up for it. We collaborated on the project together".

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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #42 on: February 5, 2008, 04:32:24 pm »
The judge in the first trail was sure enough that he was guilty of all that was laid against him and for that to have happened in a case brought by the Israeli government says a lot.

I can FEEL your pain Danny. Having to condemn Kastner by relying on an Israeli court.

If you take street justice as having a legitimate purpose his assassination also pointed to his guilt.

Fucking love it!

Can I have a go? John F Kennedy and Martin Luther King were guilty because they were assassinated. Ooooh, can I have another go? Leon Trotsky was guilty because he was assassinated.

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Offline Julio

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #43 on: February 5, 2008, 04:58:57 pm »
You have me at a bit of a disadvantage; it looks as if you have either read the book or a revue that you trust.
I finished it just a few days ago.

I haven’t so can only give you assumptions as to why Lob wrote in an “ objective” style, he was hardly likely not to do so seeing as he was refuting what is taken as fact by the majority.

I didn't say he wrote in an objective style, only that he tried to write as objectively as possible, which, for him, was extraordinarily difficult, seeing as he was on "Kasztner's train" and is alive today to tell his story.

The make up of the train is a controversial subject but again most historians put it as being hand picked by Kasztner. One account says prisoners stormed the train as it pulled out some managing to scramble aboard, did Lob mention this? Does Lob say what was his relationship with Kasztner?. The judge in the first trail was sure enough that he was guilty of all that was laid against him and for that to have happened in a case brought by the Israeli government says a lot. Even the appeal decision upheld the facts of the case but judged that he was right in his actions.

The occupants of the train were hand-picked, but that only happened because Kasztner wanted a fair representation of Jews aboard the train. Lob mentions how the majority of Kasztner's extended family were sent to Auschwitz; I think that proves beyond a resonable level of doubt that he didn't purely pick the people that suited him.

Lob says that some 100 or so "extras" got on to the train before it left for Belsen, but certainly did not mention anything about people storming the train leaving for Switzerland.

Lob never met Kasztner, or at least as far as he could remember - he was an 11-year-old boy at the time (he does, however, rely on a number of different sources for descriptions of the camp, of Kasztner and his dealings, before you protest)

Didn't the appeal exonerate Kasztner of any wrong-doing during the war (4-1 majority), his only crime having been to have lied to the Israeli court during the Greunwald (sp?) case? Even the judge of the 1st trial admitted that his judgment has been over the top.

If you take street justice as having a legitimate purpose his assassination also pointed to his guilt.
as much as I don't want to become involved in your argument with yorky, this is clearly rubbish Danny.

What is clear is that he didn't try and save himself. Once the train had reached its Swiss destination Kastner returned to Nazi-occupied Hungary to try and secure the release of more Jews.
very true, Lob was incarcerated with Kasztner's wife in Belsen and travelled in the same party to Switzerland; Kasztner never travelled, as he felt his work was not yet done.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2008, 05:06:21 pm by Julio »
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #44 on: February 5, 2008, 05:04:20 pm »
Didn't the appeal exonerate Lob of any wrong-doing during the war (4-1 majority), his only crime having been to have lied to the Israeli court during the Greunwald (sp?) case? Even the judge of the 1st trial admitted that his judgment has been over the top.

You mean Kastner mate..... But yes that's true.
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #45 on: February 5, 2008, 05:04:22 pm »
I can FEEL your pain Danny. Having to condemn Kastner by relying on an Israeli court.

Fucking love it!

Can I have a go? John F Kennedy and Martin Luther King were guilty because they were assassinated. Ooooh, can I have another go? Leon Trotsky was guilty because he was assassinated.




.  Kasztner was assassinated by his own people, it was either as a punishment or to shut him up The first option is self explanatory, the second like the first shows that not only must he  be guilty but also those who ordered his death. In both cases ask the question why was he killed?. If he was innocent who would want him dead?

 Kennedy died because he was carrying out policy people didn’t like. Same as Trotsky. ML King because he was dangerous.Try not to generalise the thing open up your mind and think instead of trying just to shoot the argument down.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2008, 05:52:21 pm by DannyD »
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Offline Julio

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #46 on: February 5, 2008, 05:07:01 pm »
You mean Kastner mate..... But yes that's true.
ha ha that's what you get for typing hurriedly in work
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #47 on: February 5, 2008, 05:10:22 pm »


.  Kasztner was assassinated by his own people, it was either as a punishment or to shut him up The first option is self explanatory, the second like the first shows that not only must he  be guilty but those who ordered his death. In both cases ask the question why was he killed?. If he was innocent who would want him dead?


Your grammar is breaking down, as it always does during moments of logical stress.

Gandhi was killed by 'his own people' too I do believe. Christ (killed by his own people!), I don't know why I'm even arguing this one. Your 24-carat stupidity is there for all to see.


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Offline El Campeador

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #48 on: February 5, 2008, 05:11:02 pm »

Fucking love it!

Can I have a go? John F Kennedy and Martin Luther King were guilty because they were assassinated. Ooooh, can I have another go? Leon Trotsky was guilty because he was assassinated.


 ;D

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Rafik Hariri? Benazir Bhutto? Mahatma fucking Ghandi? Huh

And just to scoop up the cream in the middle of Danny's donut -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations

Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #49 on: February 5, 2008, 07:29:36 pm »
Well you are persuaded then Julio.?

But those close to him at the time are less so. André Biss, Joel Brand’s cousin, who worked with Kasztner in Budapest, and who supported his policy, nevertheless corroborated Eichmann’s statement in part in his book, A Million Jews to Save, when he described who boarded the famous train which reached Switzerland on 6 December 1944:

Then came the most numerous group, Kasztner’s pride – the Zionist youth. These were composed of the members of various organisations of agricultural pioneers, of extreme right-wing “revisionists” who already possessed immigration certificates, and a number of orphans ... Lastly came those who had been able to pay cash for their journey, for we had to collect the sum the Germans demanded. But of the 1684 in the train 300 at the most were of this category ...
Kasztner’s mother, his brothers, sisters and other members of his family from Klausenburg [Kluj] were passengers ... Members of the families of those who had fought for the formation of this convoy formed at the most a group of 40 to 50 persons ... In the confusion that ensued about 380 persons managed to clamber into the train which left Budapest, not with 1300 passengers as expected, but crammed full with more than 1700 travellers. Andre Biss, A Million Jews to Save, pp.92-4.


During the libel trial Kasztner was questioned by Shmue Tamir, in Ben Hecht's book, Perfidy, a remarkable expose of the Kasztner scandal,  he presented many pages of Tamir’s masterly demolition of Kasztner’s defence.

Tamir: How do you account for the fact that more people were selected from Kluj [Kasztner’s home town] to be rescued than from any other Hungarian town?

Kastner: That had nothing to do with me.

Tamir: I put it to you that you specifically requested favoritism for your people in Kluj from Eichmann.

Kastner Y:es, I asked for it specifically.
 
Kastner :... All the local Rescue Committees were under my jurisdiction.

Tamir: Committees! You speak in the plural.

Kastner: Yes – wherever they existed.

Tamir: Where else except in Kluj was there such a committee?

Kastner: Well, I think the committee in Kluj was the only one in Hungary.
 
Tamir: Dr Kastner, you could have phoned the other towns, just as you phoned Kluj?

Kastner: Yes, that’s right.

Tamir: Then why didn’t you contact the Jews of all these towns on the phone to warn them?

Kastner: I didn’t because I didn’t have time enough.

There were 20,000 Jews in Kluj and only a limited number of seats on that train. Judge Benjamin Halevi began pressing Kasztner and he blurted out his criteria for choosing who to save:

Kastner: ... the witnesses from Kluj who testified here – in my opinion, I don’t think they represent the true Jewry of Kluj. For it is not a coincidence that there was not a single important figure among them.


So for Kasztner those relatives, friends and fellow Zionists on the train were “ important people” “true Jews” while those that were left behind and survived but who testified against him were not. Probably workers eh Yorky.

Judge Halevi found there had been no libel of Kasztner, apart from the fact that he had not been motivated by considerations of monetary gain. His collaboration had crucially aided the Nazis in murdering 450,000 Jews and, after the war, he further compounded his offence by going to the defence of Becher.
"The Nazis’ patronage of Kastner, and their agreement to let him save six hundred prominent Jews, were part of the plan to exterminate the Jews. Kastner was given a chance to add a few more to that number. The bait attracted him. The opportunity of rescuing prominent people appealed to him greatly. He considered the rescue of the most important Jews as a great personal success and a success for Zionism"
Hecht, Perfidy, p.129.



The Supreme Court ruled 5-0 that Kesztner had purged himself by giving evidence in defence of  the Nazi  SS  Colonel Becher  who he saved from certain hanging at Nuremburg .

Judge Shlomo Chesin explaing the 3-2 majority to overturn the lower courts decision stated

.” He didn’t warn Hungarian Jewry of the danger facing it because he didn’t think it would be useful, and because he thought that any deeds resulting from information given them would damage more than help ... Kastner spoke in detail of the situation, saying, “The Hungarian Jew was a branch which long ago dried up on the tree.” This vivid description coincides with the testimony of another witness about Hungarian Jews. “This was a big Jewish community in Hungary, without any ideological Jewish backbone.” ...The question is not whether a man is allowed to kill many in order to save a few, or vice-versa. The question is altogether in another sphere and should be defined as follows: a man is aware that a whole community is awaiting its doom. He is allowed to make efforts to save a few, although part of his efforts involve concealment of truth from the many; or should he disclose the truth to many though it is his best opinion that this way everybody will perish. I think the answer is clear. What good will the blood of the few bring if everyone is to perish?”

Much of the Israeli public refused to accept the new verdict. Had Kasztner lived, the Labour government would have been in difficulty. Not only had he perjured himself for Becher, but, between the trial and the Supreme Court decision, Tamir had uncovered further evidence that Kasztner had also intervened in the case of SS Colonel Hermann Krumey. He had sent him, while he was awaiting trial at Nuremberg, an affidavit declaring: “Krumey performed his duties in a laudable spirit of good will, at a time when the life and death of many depended on him.”
Hecht, Perfidy

These were senior officers in a death camp that oversaw the extermination of hundreds of thousands of souls.Well if you are happy with that that’s up to you.

Later, in the 1960s during the Eichmann trial, André Biss offered to testify. Because of his involvement with Kasztner he had more contact with Eichmann than any other Jewish witness – 90 out of 102 had never seen him – and it was apparent that his testimony would be important.

An appearance date was set, but then the prosecutor, Gideon Hausner, discovered that Biss meant to defend Kasztner’s activities. Hausner knew that, despite the Supreme Court’s decision in the case, had Biss tried to defend Kasztner there would have been an immense outcry. Hausner knew from the Sassen tapes of the Eichmann interviews how Eichmann might implicate Kasztner.

Israel had gained great prestige from Eichmann’s capture and the government did not want the focus of the trial to shift away from Eichmann towards a re-examination of the Zionist record during the Holocaust. According to Biss, Hausner “asked me to omit from my evidence any mention of our action in Budapest, and especially to pass over in silence what was then in Israel called the ‘Kasztner affair’”. ] Biss refused and was dropped as a witness.

Rudolph Vrba also wanted to testify but wasn’t called. The Prosecution claimed they couldn’t afford to fly him over from England in spite of flying many witnesses from further a field. Vrba did submit an avadavat but that too was never used at the trial.

« Last Edit: February 5, 2008, 07:35:03 pm by DannyD »
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #50 on: February 5, 2008, 07:32:43 pm »
;D

Pavement.Stepped.Off.Traffic.Oncoming.Headlights.Deer.

Rafik Hariri? Benazir Bhutto? Mahatma fucking Ghandi? Huh

And just to scoop up the cream in the middle of Danny's donut -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations

Jesus what about before 1970, don't start me off I have to catch a flight in the morning need some sleep. :wave
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #51 on: February 5, 2008, 07:54:55 pm »
Judge Halevi found there had been no libel of Kasztner, apart from the fact that he had not been motivated by considerations of monetary gain. His collaboration had crucially aided the Nazis in murdering 450,000 Jews ..... Hecht, Perfidy, p.129.

Spot the non-sequitur!

What collaboration? Once again it's the "collaboration" between the rapist and the raped.

And not only was there no monetary gain. The Rescue Committee paid $1000 for each person on that rescue train.



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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #52 on: February 5, 2008, 08:05:42 pm »
Spot the non-sequitur!

What collaboration? Once again it's the "collaboration" between the rapist and the raped.

And not only was there no monetary gain. The Rescue Committee paid $1000 for each person on that rescue train.





Well his assistant thought otherwise he said they had to get the rich on board to pay the Germans. Kesztler didn't get any money, that's not what he was after Eichmann claims him to be an idealistic young man and would have made a good SS man. tried to save enough of them, so was there a kindred spirit, he wouldn't be the first Zionist to get close to The Nazis would he.
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #53 on: February 5, 2008, 09:33:50 pm »
Well spotted julio. This book comes out on February 14th according to your amazon link. That's the day that we all kiss and make up then?

The original charge against Kastner, I seem to remember, was that he stuffed the train full of "Christianised Jews". The charge that it was actually full of "Zionist Jews" came later. Now which is it? The Zionists said it was full of Christians, the Ultra-Left said it was full of Zionists. Maybe it was just Jews.........

What is clear is that he didn't try and save himself. Once the train had reached its Swiss destination Kastner returned to Nazi-occupied Hungary to try and secure the release of more Jews.

It is an enormously complex story and - unsurpringly - has become a political football, within Israel every bit as much as without. What doesn't help is the unsubstantiated gossip that gets passed for genuine historical fact. Kastner parading in an SS uniform in Belsen is one such piece of gossip. It sounds good, but unfortunately there's no evidence for it. No one who was there remembers it (kind of unusual you'd think). And not even Eichmann, who was trying to save his skin by blackening Kastner, mentioned it.

Here I agree with julio's comment:

Asking Eichmann about the character of Kastner (as the Dutch journalist did in 1955) is like someone asking the Yorkshire Ripper about the character of the women he raped. Eichmann says something like "Oh, he was like me. We had the same ideas". No sensible person would give this any more credence than if the Ripper said of one of his victims: "Oh she was like me. Really up for it. We collaborated on the project together".



Julio finished reading it 5 days ago, and have you a link to this claim of Christianised Jews? new rules remember, He wasn’t on the train, he didn’t have to save himself  his life was protected that’s why he lived to tell the tall tales. He might have done a deal with his mates of the SS. for all we know

“Kasztner went to Nuremberg after the war in an attempt to exonerate Nazi leaders, including SS colonel Kurt Becher and SS general Hans Juttner. In all Kasztner tried to save seven of Eichmann’s Gestapo colleagues. In his trial, Kasztner even stated that Himmler had helped him save Jews B. Hecht, Perfidy.

Kasztner was described by Robert Kempner, a senior official at the Nuremberg trial, as “running around at Nuremberg looking for Nazis he could save”. R. Linn, Escaping Auschwitz


The only one posting unsubstantiated rumours is you everything I post has an Authors link to it.

Why would Eichmann lie what would describing Ksztner do to save him. He knew he was a dead man walking, he was an admirer of Zionism, read all the books just hated Jews. Kasztner  cooked his own goose and compounded  it by being the best friend the Nazis ever had during and after the war. No sensible person would give no credence to a  testimony given freely without duress or intimidation or favour, without course to reprisals. And his assistant and now his mistress tells confirms what Eichmann says ..

 “In her research, interviewing hundreds and travelling to several countries, Porter stumbled upon a taped interview with Hansi Brand, a woman whom Kasztner had an affair with.
"She said, 'If he had 100 souls, in order to save 1,000 people, he would have sold them all," Porter recounts.
However, morals are relative. Brand was the wife of his friend and co-worker. CNS News 21 September 2006!


The man of ideals the renaissance Zionist man prepared to do all for the dream of Israel.
You don’t get it do you?  I am saying he did what he did for what he thought right, so did Eichmann, that is why they got a long so well.

That’s why Eichmann was praising him in the interview, he was one super nationalist talking about another. It has nothing to do with personalities .
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #54 on: February 5, 2008, 09:35:11 pm »
Spot the non-sequitur!

What collaboration? Once again it's the "collaboration" between the rapist and the raped.

And not only was there no monetary gain. The Rescue Committee paid $1000 for each person on that rescue train.





Tell it to the judge!!! tell it to the judge!!!
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #55 on: February 6, 2008, 12:48:21 am »
Eichmann claims him to be an idealistic young man and would have made a good SS man. tried to save enough of them, so was there a kindred spirit, he wouldn't be the first Zionist to get close to The Nazis would he.

"Eichmann said this", "Eichmann said that", "Eichmann said something else".....Jeezus Danny. You're a credulous old fool. When in doubt, quote a Nazi.

The only one posting unsubstantiated rumours is you everything I post has an Authors link to it.

But you're quoting authors like Hecht, Greenstein and Brenner - out and out weirdos with no credibility whatsoever.
« Last Edit: February 6, 2008, 12:55:29 am by yorkykopite »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #56 on: February 6, 2008, 01:20:44 am »
and have you a link to this claim of Christianised Jews?

You're joking right? This is basic stuff. If you know the case you should know this.

This is what Gruenwald said of Kastner in his pamphlet (and what provoked the libel trial):

"He saved no fewer than 52 of his relatives, and hundreds of other Jews - most of whom had converted to Christianity who bought their rescue from Kastner by paying millions!...But thousands of senior Zionists, members of Mizrahi and the ultra-religious parties - these Kastner left in the shadow of death".

(This document is quoted in Tom Segev, The Seventh Million. The Israelis and the Holocaust pp. 257-58. A reputable and justly famous book. The original court document was published in 1955 in S. Rosenfeld, Criminal Case) p. 182

So you can see. The original accusation - the accusation that caused the trial - was that Kastner had ignored Zionists and concentrated on Christianised Jews when it came to choosing people to rescue.

At some point, someone down the line decided to change this and accuse Kastner of only saving Zionists! It obviously served their purpose better. Like it serves yours.

The fact is he saved Jews. And, yes, he had this in common with the Nazis. Just as the Nazis didn't stop people at the gates of Auschwitz and ask 'Zionist?', neither did Kastner when filling his rescue train. The Nazis didn't care a toss whether a Jew was a Zionist or not. It was sufficient to kill them because they were Jewish. Likewise the only qualification to get on that rescue train was whether you were a Jew - not what ideological stripe you were.

 


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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #57 on: February 6, 2008, 01:03:13 pm »
What would any of us do in similar circumstances?

Announce the unbelievable via what method that wouldn't get stifled by the Nazis, signing your own death warrant in the process, or work to save as many of the doomed as possible.

Holding the decision in your hands who is to live and who is to die.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #58 on: February 6, 2008, 01:51:51 pm »
What would any of us do in similar circumstances?

Announce the unbelievable via what method that wouldn't get stifled by the Nazis, signing your own death warrant in the process, or work to save as many of the doomed as possible.

Holding the decision in your hands who is to live and who is to die.

That is THE question jam.

One can run an ideological steamroller over it. One can ignore the moral dilemma completely. And one smash through the complex, conflicting and contradictory nature of the evidence in order to come up with a pre-ordained conclusion. But that's not history. It's propaganda - pure and simple.

This is what Kastner himself said. He was talking about the Jews inside Nazi-occupied Europe as against those safely outside (the quote is from Hilberg, Destruction vol 3 p. 1052

"They were outside, we were inside. They were not immediately affected; we were the victims. They moralized, we feared death. They had sympathy for us and believed themselves to be powerless. We wanted to live and believe rescue was possible".

Hilberg adds "The Jewish catastrophe was attended by a twofold paralysis: the Jews inside could not break out, the Jews outside could not break in" (also p. 1052).

Kastner's story is a heart-rending one. I defy anyone to read it and not be confused, anxious, uncertain. What should he (and the other Jewish leaders deputed to 'negotiate' with Eichmann) have done? What would you have done?

But I say again - those who plunder the story in order to erect a crude caricature (both of the man and the dilemma) don't deserve serious consideration.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #59 on: February 6, 2008, 04:44:47 pm »
The problem wiith this or any other moral political argument is that well intentioned activists will probe and suspect every permutation and theory and see conspiracy both where it does and does not exist.

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #60 on: February 7, 2008, 10:48:52 am »
Well DannyD. I owe you an apology.

When I called Tony Greenstein an idiot I had no idea that I was insulting you. I mean I knew he was a fellow Trotskyist and all that, but I honestly had no idea he was you.

He is you, isn't he? I mean how else does one explain the fact that 4 pages of this post.....


.....are word for word the same as Tony Greenstein's atrocious article 'Zionism in the Holocaust' in the Communist Party of Great Britain's "Weekly Worker" no. 631 June 29th 2006. That's 1,298 words! Almost the same as the number of Jews rescued by Kastner!

Closer inspection reveals that all the footnotes, all the quotes, all the abbreviations are the same too. Even the hyperventilating exclamation marks are the same (!!!!)

At first I thought it was plagiarism, pure and simple. But that can't be the case can it Danny? I mean you were the one flinging accusations about that I simple googled everything I knew about the holocaust.  That, of course, was bollocks. But I'm old school enough to believe that a fella making such an accusation wouldn't be linked so intraveneously to the old google machine himself. But it appears you. Big time.

So there you are Danny, or Tony, or whatever you now want to call yourself. I'm sorry I've had to blow your cover. (Hope the Weekly Worker (sic) paid you well for that work of intense scholarship).

There's a serious point here though, isn't there? The thesis that Zionism collaborated in the destruction of the European Jews is an obsession to many on the ultra-left. These people have a stock number of apparently damning quotes, usually ripped from their context and certainly ripped from any balanced historical reasoning, which are pressed into service to 'prove' this idiotic idea that Zionists and Nazis constructed the genocide together. Most of the sources were published by a man called Lennie Brenner in his book '51 Documents' (I can just see your blackened copy DannyD - so well-thumbed that it's coming away from its spine?).

These have about as much historical credibility as 'the Protocols of the Elders of Zion' - possibly the most infamous anti-semitic tract ever published. Indeed Noonday press, the American Neo-Nazi publishing house, have published Lennie Brenner's book 'Zionism in the age of the Dictators (in 1986), as indeed they have 'the Protocols' (and Mein Kamp).

I'm sure Brenner, as a good Trot, was horrified that Noonday republished his book. But you can see why they did it. It's the same with Irving's holocaust-denying site the Institute of Historical Review. You'll find the same set of 'documents' being cited, ad nauseum, on there as well. As indeed you will in the Stalinist literature on Zionism produced in the Soviet Union in the 1970s (L Korneyev, The Sinister Secrets of Zionism (1977) is one of many unhinged tirades from that glorious period of Russian scholarship). Finally, at the risk of sounding like Reg and the Judean People's Front, it is notable that Danny's/Tony's article appeared in the CPGB's 'Workers Weekly. Trots and Stalinists, nominally at war with each other since some minor disagreement in the late 1920s, are all too happy to publish their anti-semitic bile in each other's magazines. What would the People's Front of Judea make of that?

None of this of course means that Danny/Tony is wrong in his belief that "Zionists" collaborated with the Nazis to murder 6 million. He is wrong though. Desperately - almost comically - wrong. I'll tell you why another day, after I've had a breather.



   
 


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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #61 on: February 7, 2008, 09:04:53 pm »
He is you, isn't he? I mean how else does one explain the fact that 4 pages of this post.....
.....are word for word the same as Tony Greenstein's atrocious article 'Zionism in the Holocaust' in the Communist Party of Great Britain's "Weekly Worker" no. 631 June 29th 2006. That's 1,298 words! Almost the same as the number of Jews rescued by Kastner!

I don't know who I have less respect for, Yorky. DannyD for being a plagiarising little git or you for actually reading the Weekly Worker. Tell me it was lying around in the loo at work or something...

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #62 on: February 7, 2008, 11:52:41 pm »
I don't know who I have less respect for, Yorky. DannyD for being a plagiarising little git or you for actually reading the Weekly Worker. Tell me it was lying around in the loo at work or something...

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #63 on: February 7, 2008, 11:58:26 pm »
^ i don't know what youse are arguing about but it has been funny   :D

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #64 on: February 8, 2008, 03:47:40 pm »
Local chippy's run by a bunch of Stalinists.

ROFL

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #65 on: February 8, 2008, 10:37:12 pm »
Well DannyD. I owe you an apology.

When I called Tony Greenstein an idiot I had no idea that I was insulting you. I mean I knew he was a fellow Trotskyist and all that, but I honestly had no idea he was you.

He is you, isn't he? I mean how else does one explain the fact that 4 pages of this post.....
.....are word for word the same as Tony Greenstein's atrocious article 'Zionism in the Holocaust' in the Communist Party of Great Britain's "Weekly Worker" no. 631 June 29th 2006. That's 1,298 words! Almost the same as the number of Jews rescued by Kastner!

Closer inspection reveals that all the footnotes, all the quotes, all the abbreviations are the same too. Even the hyperventilating exclamation marks are the same (!!!!)

At first I thought it was plagiarism, pure and simple. But that can't be the case can it Danny? I mean you were the one flinging accusations about that I simple googled everything I knew about the holocaust.  That, of course, was bollocks. But I'm old school enough to believe that a fella making such an accusation wouldn't be linked so intraveneously to the old google machine himself. But it appears you. Big time.

So there you are Danny, or Tony, or whatever you now want to call yourself. I'm sorry I've had to blow your cover. (Hope the Weekly Worker (sic) paid you well for that work of intense scholarship).

Tut tut from someone who has only recently posted an acredited quote of any description and that after being brow beaten into doing it, to chastises me who gives accreditation to everything I quote in any post is like being told to sit up straight by the Hunchback of Notre Dame.

All the posts from Tony Greenstein come with their original accreditation  where I have taken work from him or Lenni Brenner I quote them and give acreditation, that’s the way it is done that is the code of practice, but you wouldn’t have a clue about codes of practice or principle would you. You just run off the mouth, say what you like (as you are doing in this thread) and don’t back it up with a link or a accredited quote. By the way none of it came from the Weekly Worker there are other sites both Tony Greenstein and Lenni Brenner write for or contribute to

There's a serious point here though, isn't there? The thesis that Zionism collaborated in the destruction of the European Jews is an obsession to many on the ultra-left. These people have a stock number of apparently damning quotes, usually ripped from their context and certainly ripped from any balanced historical reasoning, which are pressed into service to 'prove' this idiotic idea that Zionists and Nazis constructed the genocide together. Most of the sources were published by a man called Lennie Brenner in his book '51 Documents' (I can just see your blackened copy DannyD - so well-thumbed that it's coming away from its spine?).

These have about as much historical credibility as 'the Protocols of the Elders of Zion' - possibly the most infamous anti-semitic tract ever published. Indeed Noonday press, the American Neo-Nazi publishing house, have published Lennie Brenner's book 'Zionism in the age of the Dictators (in 1986), as indeed they have 'the Protocols' (and Mein Kamp).

I'm sure Brenner, as a good Trot, was horrified that Noonday republished his book. But you can see why they did it. It's the same with Irving's holocaust-denying site the Institute of Historical Review. You'll find the same set of 'documents' being cited, ad nauseum, on there as well. As indeed you will in the Stalinist literature on Zionism produced in the Soviet Union in the 1970s (L Korneyev, The Sinister Secrets of Zionism (1977) is one of many unhinged tirades from that glorious period of Russian scholarship). Finally, at the risk of sounding like Reg and the Judean People's Front, it is notable that Danny's/Tony's article appeared in the CPGB's 'Workers Weekly. Trots and Stalinists, nominally at war with each other since some minor disagreement in the late 1920s, are all too happy to publish their anti-semitic bile in each other's magazines. What would the People's Front of Judea make of that?

None of this of course means that Danny/Tony is wrong in his belief that "Zionists" collaborated with the Nazis to murder 6 million. He is wrong though. Desperately - almost comically - wrong. I'll tell you why another day, after I've had a breather.


Oh! dear within one paragraph you go from exaggeration

“The thesis that Zionism collaborated in the destruction of the European Jews”

To fabrication

to 'prove' this idiotic idea that Zionists and Nazis constructed the genocide together.

The first part is bad enough, but given that they did halt and or hinder any rescue that did not involve Jews going to Palestine you are half right. But sorry even your desire to show anyone who opposes Zionism as either a raving loony or anti Semitic, can’t get away with this one. Under your rules I bet Tony Greenstein could sue you for defamation of character seeing as he is me and I is he and we are all together coo cookichoo!! The quotes used by me including the ones from “he” can all be accounted for by reading the works they cite, many of which if you care to do some real research instead of googling you will find a fair amount, if not the majority, are Jewish including Greenstein himself. Unlike he I am a raving Trot and proud of it too!

You have this nasty habit of personally attacking any author I quote. For you they are either Left Loonies or you claim they are discredited ( you never say who they are discredited by do you?)
What they actually say is never counted is it? It is enough for you to slander them and put into the readers minds they are all dubious sources,and have links to Holocaust Deniers or raving Anti Semites but you never prove anything do you? You just slander away as if nothing will come of it.

 Lets just take Lenni Brenner, you say:

to 'prove' this idiotic idea that Zionists and Nazis constructed the genocide together. Most of the sources were published by a man called Lennie Brenner in his book '51 Documents'


These have about as much historical credibility as 'the Protocols of the Elders of Zion' - possibly the most infamous anti-semitic tract ever published. Indeed Noonday press, the American Neo-Nazi publishing house, have published Lennie Brenner's book 'Zionism in the age of the Dictators (in 1986), as indeed they have 'the Protocols' (and Mein Kamp).

I'm sure Brenner, as a good Trot, was horrified that Noonday republished his book. But you can see why they did it. It's the same with Irving's holocaust-denying site the Institute of Historical Review


And on and on you rave, but where are the put downs to Brenners topics and acusations that were published in “Zionism in the Age of the Dictators” not  “51 Documents.” ( gave you Edward Morimer’s Times Revue way back in this thread. And didn’t you say it was all from Tony Greenstein a couple of sentences ago? Don’t tell me you don’t know what you are slagging off now, Christ all mighty!!!!)

Were in all this reactionary blabber do you take him to task about what HE ACTUALY writes, not what Irvine spouts or The Black Hundreds wrote In Russia at the turn of the century. Tell us what you find incorrect in Brenner’s work (it might be a good idea to go and read it first, you probably haven’t so best start there eh!)
Mortimer thinks it a great read as does Alan Hart who in his epic and much acclaimed Zionism The Real Enemy of the Jews uses quotes from it no less than a dozen times. Of the book he says:
“Brenners book is an increadably well documented expose of the full extent of Zionisms collaboration with both the Nazis and Italy’s Fascits and the tenshion this collaboration led to within the WZO (World Zionist Organisation..DD) at the highest leadership level””.p134

Now I await your response that Hart is either a Left Loonie or has been discredited by person or persons unknown. This well respected ex BBC and ITV man who is now a major journalist and writer was a personal friend of Golda Meir who thought of him as a respected and honourable journalist. He has a sighed photo of her saying “ to a good friend Alan Hart from Golda Meir” so how’s about Golda then Yorky in your personal  evaluation scale is she Loonie or discredited.

 Bless you your head must spin with all these lefties and discredited people spinning around in there.

And that’s it just a pile of garbage aimed at shooting the person down first me then anyone who I use for quotes but never going into any detail worth a mention of what has been actually been put forward for debate.  I won’t even complain that it is usually good manners on here to at least wait for a member of this board to return before slagging them off while they are away, but no matter I have come to expect this kind of behavour from you. More to follow almost immediately!! No rest for the wicked you know.
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #66 on: February 8, 2008, 10:43:09 pm »
The state of Israel claimed that Malkiel Grünwald's allegations against Kasztner were a lie. When Grünwald published these accusations, the Israeli Government did rather more than demand that his views should not be broadcast. Because a prominent Zionist official (Dr. Kastner was a spokesman for the Ministry of Trade and Industry) was involved, the Attorney General of the State of Israel prosecuted Grünwald for criminal libel. Let the verdict of Judge Benjamin Halevi (who later became one of the panel of three judges that tried Eichmann) in Israel's District Court of Jerusalem speak for itself.

The Attorney General v. Malkiel Grünwald


This material should be studied carefully. The masses of Jews from Hungary's ghettos obediently boarded the deportation trains without knowing their fate. They were full of confidence in the false information that they were being transferred to Kenyermeze. The Nazis could not have misled the masses of Jews so conclusively had they not spread their false information through Jewish channels.

The Jews of the ghettos would not have trusted the Nazi or Hungarian rulers. But they had trust in their Jewish leaders. Eichmann and others used this known fact as part of their calculated plan to mislead the Jews. They were able to deport the Jews to their extermination by the help of Jewish leaders. The false information was spread by the Jewish leaders. The local leaders of the Jews of Kluj and Nodvarod knew that other leaders were spreading such false information and did not protest. Those of the Jews who tried to warn their friends of the truth were persecuted by the Jewish leaders in charge of the local 'rescue work'. The trust of the Jews in the misleading information and their lack of knowledge that their wives, children and themselves were about to be deported to the gas chambers of Auschwitz led the victims to remain quiescent in their ghettos. It seduced them into not resisting or hampering the deportation orders. Dozens of thousands of Jews were guarded in their ghettos by a few dozen police. Yet even vigorous young Jews made no attempt to overpower these few guards and escape to nearby Rumania. No resistance activities to the deportations were organized in these ghettos. And the Jewish leaders did everything in their power to soothe the Jews in the ghettos and to prevent such resistance activities. The same Jews who spread in Kluj and Nodvarod the false rumour of Kenyermeze, or confirmed it, the same public leaders who did not warn their own people against the misleading statements, the same Jewish leaders who did not organize any resistance or any sabotage of deportations . . . these same leaders did not join the people of their community in their ride to Auschwitz, but were all included in the Rescue train. The Nazi organizers of extermination and the perpetrators of extermination permitted Rudolf Kastner and the members of the Jewish Council in Budapest to save themselves, their relatives, and friends. The Nazis did this as a means of making the local Jewish leaders, whom they favoured, dependent on the Nazi regime, dependent on its good will during the time of its fatal deportation schedule. In short, the Nazis succeeded in bringing the Jewish leaders into collaboration with the Nazis at the time of the catastrophe.

The Nazi chiefs knew that the Zionists were a most vital element in Jewry and the most trusted by the Jews. The Nazis drew a lesson from the Warsaw ghetto and other belligerent ghettos. They learned that Jews were able to sell their lives very expensively if honorably guided. Eichmann did not want a second Warsaw. For this reason, the Nazis exerted themselves to mislead and bribe the Jewish leaders. The personality of Rudolph Kastner made him a convenient catspaw for Eichmann and his clique, to draw into collaboration and make their task easier.
The question here is not, as stated by the Attorney General in his summation, whether members of the Jewish Rescue Committee were or were not capable of fulfilling their duty without the patronage of the S.S. chiefs. It is obvious that without such S.S. Nazi patronage the Jewish Rescue Committee could not have existed, and could have acted only as an underground. The question is, as put by the lawyer for the defense, why were the Nazis interested in the existence of the Rescue Committee? Why did the S.S. chiefs make every effort to encourage the existence of the Jewish Rescue Committee? Did the exterminators turn into rescuers?

The same question rises concerning the rescue of prominent Jews by these German killers of Jews. Was the rescue of such Jews a part of the extermination plan of the killers ? The support given by the extermination leaders to Kastner's Rescue Committee proves that indeed there was a place for Kastner and his friends in their Final Solution for the Jews of Hungary - their total annihilation. The Nazi's patronage of Kastner, and their agreement to let him save six hundred prominent Jews, were part of the plan to exterminate the Jews. Kastner was given a chance to add a few more to that number. The bait attracted him. The opportunity of rescuing prominent people appealed to him greatly. He considered the rescue of the most important Jews as a great personal success and a success for Zionism. It was a success that would also justify his conduct - his political negotiation with Nazis and the Nazi patronage of his committee. When Kastner received this present from the Nazis, Kastner sold his soul to the German Satan.

The sacrifice of the vital interests of the majority of the Jews, in order to rescue the prominents, was the basic element in the agreement between Kastner and the Nazis. This agreement fixed the division of the nation into two unequal camps: a small fragment of prominents, whom the Nazis promised Kastner to save, on the one hand, and the great majority or Hungarian Jews whom the Nazis designated for death, on the other hand. An imperative condition for the rescue of the first camp by the Nazis was that Kastner will not interfere in the action of the Nazis against the other camp and will not hamper them in its extermination. Kastner fulfilled this condition. He concentrated his efforts in the rescue of the prominents and treated the camp of the doomed as if they had already been wiped out from the book of the living. One cannot estimate the damage caused by Kastner's collaboration and put down the number of victims which it cost Hungarian Jews. These are not only the thousands of Jews in Nodvarod or any other community in the border area, Jews who could escape through the border, had the chief of their rescue committee fulfilled his duty toward them.

All of Kastner's answers in his final testimony were a constant effort to evade this truth. Kastner has tried to escape through every crack he could find in the wall of evidence. When one crack was sealed in his face, he darted quickly to another".


Judge Halevi reverts to the meeting of Kastner with the S.S. officers Becher and Rudolf Hoess, commandant of Auschwitz at the time when the 'new line' of rescuing Jews was revealed by Hoess. He says:

From this gathering in Budapest, it is obvious that the 'new line' stretched from Himmler to Hoess, from Jutner to Becher and Krumey. According to Kastner, however, these Nazis were all active in rescuing Jews. This meeting of these important German guests in Budapest exposes the 'rescue' work of Becher in its true light. It reveals also the extent of Kastner's involvement in the inner circle of the chief German war criminals. Just as the Nazi war criminals knew they needed an alibi and hoped to achieve it by the rescue of a few Jews at the eleventh hour, so Kastner also needed an alibi for himself. Collaboration between the Jewish Agency Rescue Committee and the Exterminators of the Jews was solidified in Budapest and Vienna. Kastner's duties were part and parcel of the general duties of the S.S. In addition to its Extermination Department and Looting Department, the Nazi S.S. opened a Rescue Department headed by Kastner. All these extermination, robbery and rescue activities of the S.S. were coordinated under the management of Heinrich Himmler . . . Kastner perjured himself knowingly in his testimony before this court when he denied he had interceded in Becher's behalf. Moreover, he concealed the important fact that he interceded for Becher in the name of the Jewish Agency and the Jewish World Congress.

As to the contents of Kastner's affidavit, it was enough for the defense to provide Becher was a war criminal. It was up to the prosecution to remove Becher from this status, if they wished to negate the affidavit. The Attorney General admitted in his summation that Becher was a war criminal. The lies in the contents of Kastner's affidavit, the lies in his testimony concerning the document, and Kastner's knowing participation in the activities of Nazi war criminals, and his participation in the last minute fake rescue activities - all these combine to show one overwhelming truth - that this affidavit was not given in good faith. Kastner knew well, as he himself testified, that Becher had never stood up against the stream of Jewish extermination, as Kastner has declared in the affidavit. The aims of Becher and his superior, Himmler, were not to save Jews but to serve the Nazi regime with full compliance.
These is not truth and no good faith in Kastner's testimony, 'I never doubted for one moment the good intention of good Becher'. It is clear that the positive recommendation by Kastner, not only in his own name but also in the name of the Jewish Agency and the Jewish World Congress was of decisive importance for Becher. Kastner did not exaggerate when he said that Becher was released by the Allies because of his personal intervention. The lies in the affidavit of Kastner and the contradictions and various pretexts, which were proven to be lies, were sufficient to annul the value of his statements and to prove that there was no good faith in his testimony in favor of this German war criminal. Kastner's affidavit in favor of Becher was a wilfully false affidavit given in favor of a war criminal to save him from trial and punishment in Nuremberg. Therefore, the defendant, Malkiel Grünwald, was correct in his accusations against Rudolf Kastner in the first, second and fourth of his statements."

--------------------
Malkiel Grünwald was found generally innocent of libel against Kastner, but fined him one Israeli pound for the one unproved accusation - that Kastner had actually collected money from his Nazi partners for his aide to their slaughter program. The judge also ordered the Government of Israel to pay Grünwald two hundred Israeli pounds as court costs.
(Judgement of Judge Benjamin Halevi, Criminal Case 124/53; Attorney General v. Malchiel Greenwald, District Court, Jerusalem, June 22, 1955).

http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/judge_halevi.htm
« Last Edit: February 8, 2008, 10:48:15 pm by DannyD »
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Offline DannyD

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #67 on: February 8, 2008, 11:35:30 pm »
What would any of us do in similar circumstances?

Announce the unbelievable via what method that wouldn't get stifled by the Nazis, signing your own death warrant in the process, or work to save as many of the doomed as possible.

Holding the decision in your hands who is to live and who is to die.

Jam this story has just started there is far more about this c*nt than has been put out. It was at first just an example of how the Zionists used their influence to do deals with the Nazis that allowed them to chose Jews for Palestine, but there is more coming in all the time. His roll was to keep the prisoners quiet read the judges summoning up at the libel trial, they were all told they were off to some nice place where the sun was shining all day and so long as they worked hard everything would be ok.

 This Kasztner had it in his hands to do as he wished, to decide who lived who perished, he didn’t tell a soul only those who were important to him or Zionism and the Israeli state in being. This crap about a moral dilemma, what dilemma, should I take me Auntie or not?

The Capos ( The camp overseers) in the camps were almost to a man called collaborators, well this well connected Zionist was the Capo of Capos so what about him. He walked about as a Nazi acted like one and had the same control over life and death as them.

Why not take 18,000 children to freedom. Would any prisoner complain about that. That was real moral dilemma why not take the children, would that be your choice given the power you had in your hands Jam. If you motive was about saving Jews, just Jews not special Jews. Not one mention of the children from him. And why was he running around Nuremburg looking for Nazis to get free. What was the real deal done with them bastards.
« Last Edit: February 8, 2008, 11:37:16 pm by DannyD »
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Offline El Campeador

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #68 on: February 9, 2008, 04:44:41 am »
So how was Spain? Have any sangria?

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #69 on: February 9, 2008, 09:23:11 am »
So how was Spain? Have any sangria?

It was a business trip El C and sorry I am one of those who take their enjoyment from other sources than a bottle, weather was fantastic cold at night but warm during the day so I am refreshed and ready to do battle

Noticed last night  reading while trying to sleep that the quotes Yorky uses from Raul Hilberg are all from Kesztner himself and the majority are taken from the discredited affidavit that was denounced so venomously by Judge Benjamin Halevi in the Libel case.

I cautioned you as to what Hilbergs book should be used for and his description of Israel is a fine example of that caution. The final volume that deals with " The Consequences" says little of the Arabs except to berate them and the British for hindering the formation of the state of Israel. He says on page 1132 ( 3rd edition)

Israel is Jewry's great consolation. It is a vast "undoing" achievement, one of the greatest in history. Even while the Jews of Europe were being slaughtered, the delegates to the first session of the American Jewish Conference were turning their attention to the future state. Their thoughts were expressed to some extent in a speech delivered by Dr. Israel Goldstein of the General Zionists during the rescue symposium: "For all our rivers of tears and oceans of blood, for our broken lives and devastated homes, for all our gutted synagogues and desecrated scrolls, for all our slain youths and spoliated maidens, for all our agony and for all the martyrdom of these black years, we shall be consoled when in Eretz Israel, reestablished as a Jewish Commonwealth, land of our sunrise, and in every land where the dispersed of Israel dwell, the sun of freedom will rise," etc., etc.13 From this came the great concentration of fury upon England and, to a lesser extent, the Arab countries after the war. In the years 1945 to 1949, England was Jewry's primary enemy. The English, and the Arabs, moved into this position because, in seeking to frustrate the establishment of a Jewish homeland, they were reopening wounds that only Israel could heal.

He sites many glowing speaches by Zionists who had done nothing to help or where intrumental in halting a mass refugee program for European Jews without mention of their activities that are well documented in such broad and acknowledged establishments as the US Congress Library, the Arachives of the UN etc etc etc In my opinion Hilbergs view is that of many, but he being a lauded historian should be better, it is that the Palestinians should just shut up and accept they are paying the price for the crimes of European nations against the Jews.

On Kaszners assination he does say " Criticism let alone violence at surviving leaders was rare" p1133. The assassins by the way where all pardoned a few years after, isn't that a strange thing, never thought that would happen eh!!!!
« Last Edit: February 9, 2008, 11:59:01 am by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #70 on: February 9, 2008, 02:23:27 pm »
It was a business trip El C and sorry I am one of those who take their enjoyment from other sources than a bottle, weather was fantastic cold at night but warm during the day so I am refreshed and ready to do battle


Danny,

As far as your battle goes, just to have a frame of reference, a few questions to you.  Are you Jewish?  Are you Muslim?  Have you ever visited or lived in Israel?  Have you ever visited or lived in the West Bank or Gaza?  Have you ever worked with the Israelis or Jews?  Have you ever worked with Palestinians or Muslims?  Do you have a personal connection to Holocaust?

Again, this is just to form some kind of frame of reference as far as your posts go.

Thanks,

tonypaj

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #71 on: February 9, 2008, 02:42:23 pm »
Danny,

As far as your battle goes, just to have a frame of reference, a few questions to you.  Are you Jewish?  Are you Muslim?  Have you ever visited or lived in Israel?  Have you ever visited or lived in the West Bank or Gaza?  Have you ever worked with the Israelis or Jews?  Have you ever worked with Palestinians or Muslims?  Do you have a personal connection to Holocaust?

Again, this is just to form some kind of frame of reference as far as your posts go.

Thanks,

tonypaj


I have never lived on the moon met or worked with moonmen (know a few living down here though) was never in the Russian Revolution or The English civil war. Wasn’t at the birth of my mother or father so what. Are you saying you can only know about events unless you experience them.

That is the subjective theory on history its reactionary. If true how can we learn lessons from the past mistakes of other as individuals and as a society in general. If the subjective theory was a correct one Israel would not spend so much money on museums, libraries and education programs surrounding the Holocaust. Never mind greasing journalists palms to say and do as it wishes, to rewrite history to suite its needs, to fabricate the history of Jews and Zionism. There would be no point those outside of the “experience” couldn’t grasp it and those that did “experience” the event would soon die away and the history with it.

Sorry I know where you are coming from and I am afraid it is a none starter unless you want to deal with what’s being discussed here and not reduce down to a personal level (there is enough of that already) I don’t bite.
I lay before you a plan of freedom - adopt it, and you rid the world of inequality, misery, and crime. A martyr in your cause, I am become the prophet of your salvation.

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #72 on: February 9, 2008, 02:55:34 pm »

I have never lived on the moon met or worked with moonmen (know a few living down here though) was never in the Russian Revolution or The English civil war. Wasn’t at the birth of my mother or father so what. Are you saying you can only know about events unless you experience them.

That is the subjective theory on history its reactionary. If true how can we learn lessons from the past mistakes of other as individuals and as a society in general. If the subjective theory was a correct one Israel would not spend so much money on museums, libraries and education programs surrounding the Holocaust. Never mind greasing journalists palms to say and do as it wishes, to rewrite history to suite its needs, to fabricate the history of Jews and Zionism. There would be no point those outside of the “experience” couldn’t grasp it and those that did “experience” the event would soon die away and the history with it.

Sorry I know where you are coming from and I am afraid it is a none starter unless you want to deal with what’s being discussed here and not reduce down to a personal level (there is enough of that already) I don’t bite.


You have no clue about me, your idea about me is based on one or two posts on this board, the rest is just your own imagination based on nothing (well, maybe insecurity...).  I do feel sorry for you.  I had no intention to start any kind of argument with you (spent my youth arguing with marxists, etc., no good ever came of that, for them or me), however it truly interested me what the background of a person with opinions such as yours might be. 

tonypaj

P.S.  It interested me, but that's in the past...



tonypaj

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #73 on: February 9, 2008, 03:23:16 pm »
So your reply here makes me spot on about you. Deal with the subject matter in this thread, leave what I am what I do and how many shites I have a day to another thread, start if you want.

 I contest and I am not alone The Holocaust has been rewritten to include a Zionist heroic involvement, leaving out their collaboration and policy of Jerusalem or nothing.
Many of those leading the fight for a clear understanding of Zionism in The holocaust are Jews living in Israel. I take my lead from them.

By the way I enjoyed your analysis of the season so far. Well written, to the point, and all in all spot on, do the same here, no problem.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #74 on: February 9, 2008, 09:40:43 pm »
I won’t even complain that it is usually good manners on here to at least wait for a member of this board to return before slagging them off while they are away, but no matter I have come to expect this kind of behavour from you.

Sorry, didn't realise we all have to stop when you leave England for a couple of days.

So are you back now Danny? Can I start 'slagging you off' again? 
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #75 on: February 10, 2008, 10:33:42 am »
Sorry, didn't realise we all have to stop when you leave England for a couple of days.

So are you back now Danny? Can I start 'slagging you off' again? 

Deal with the issues  :

I say that Zionism as an ultra nationalist movement made agreements with The Nazis both in German and the occupied countries. The intention behind the agreements was primarily to populate Palestine not to save Jews. Those Jews it “bought” from the Nazis were carefully selected so dismissing any idea that they were saving Jews as a moral assignment. I also say they thwarted and hindered any attempt to save persecuted Jews who were not designated to go to Palestine

I show that Zionism from its takeover by Theodore Herzl in the late 19th century has prostituted itself around the world negotiating with any and all states to “sell” them the Zionist dream. Using anti Semitism as a tool they promised to rid these nations of their Jews in return for political favours that would lead to the establishment of the Jewish state. The most anti-Semitic regimes where approached and their relationship with these regimes was used as a weapon against the majority of Jews, the “assimilationists” who wanted to fight to make their homeland free from racism. They had argued as had leading English Jews for centuries, that they were English and Jewish, but primarily they were English citizens and did not see themselves as part of any future Jewish state.They in fact proclaimed it a blasphemy, as the laws of their religion says only the Messiah could return Jews back to the promised land.

That Zionism in the 1930s and 40s identified a chance to make the Zionist dream a reality. The economic crisis culminating in the Wall Street crash and the treachery of the international working class leadership under Stalin hailed the coming to power of Hitler and Mussolini and the defeat of the Spanish workers. The emerging of right wing governments across Europe brought in its wake vicious pogroms and anti Semitic riots leading to The Holocaust. At no time did Zionism as a movement fight against fascism, in fact in Germany it pointed out socialists and communists to the Nazi thugs of Hitler. There was resistance from Jews before Hitler came to power the German Jewish Bund fought alongside the gentile workers of Germany and many Jews joined and became leading members of both the KPD and the SDP.

Jews fought in the Spanish civil War and formed one of the largest international contingents, the people have a proud history of fighting oppression. Given any kind of a principled leadership they would have fought I and many young Jews today are certain of that. Look at how thought fought for their Nation State

The history of Zionism towards the Nazis was the same as it had been in Europe under Herzl, one of collaboration. It was they who the Fascists chose to head the hated Judernrats and they did their biding well. Their prime job was to assist the concentration and ghetto regime to keep order amongst the Jewish prisoners allowing the “peaceful extermination” of millions of men woman and children.


Since the wars end and the formation of the Zionist state of Israel The Holocaust was not a subject often talked about for individuals the pain was too great but for the leaders of Zionism they had secrets they did not want to be aired. The Kasztner case blew all this out of the window. It is not by accident that the case is referred to as such and not the Gruenvald case for it was he who was the accused. He was accused of liable for writing a pamphlet that accused Kasztner of collaborating with the Nazis in Hungary in and around the Auschwitz concentration camp. Kasztner was forced to go to trail by the Israeli Attorney General, the case was such a political time bomb the AG himself prosecuted it in the Jerusalem court. The judge broke Gruenvalds accusations down to four counts in an indictement.

1) Collaboration with the Nazis
2)Vicarious murder or paving the way for the murder of Hungarian Jews
3)Partnership with a Nazi war criminal ( Kurt Becher) in acts of thievery.
4)Saving a war criminal from punishment after the war.

The judge found for Gruenvald and against Kasztner, on all but the third count but it was his speech given at the verdict that shook Israeli political life and it has never recovered since. (see the full text in a previous post of mine) The case was overturned in the Supreme court later but not before Kasztner was executed by a government agent working within a right wing Zionist faction. The killer was tried and jailed but a few years later Ben Gurion pardoned him. The Kasztner case brought out into the open what many knew but could not speak of. The leading Labour Party in Israel (Malpi) of which both Kasztner and the Attorney General were members began to lose it grip on the Israel people. One disgusting feature of Kasztner’s activities that came out in the tial was he would get prisoners waiting to go to the gas chambers to send postcards from a “model work camp”  telling their friends and family everything was ok and not to worry.

The Eichmann kidnap and trial was seen as a counterbalance to the scandals that were ripping through Israeli society. The trial was more of a circus than a trial, of the 102 witnesses 90 had never had any contact with Eichmann. The witness stand was crammed with Zionist functionaries whose roll was to make heroic the Zionst leadership at the time of The Holocaust. Those who had contact with the camps were cynically used as stooges for the Zionists “ witnesses.” First would come a prisoner racked with genuine pain and anguish who would break down sobbing as they tell their harrowing experience under Eichmann, straight after up pops the Zionist straight man telling tales of daring do by this or that leader of this or that Zionist organisation, (they all had to have a part in it or else it wouldn’t work, rivalry would blow the whistle) and on and on it went. The trial was a show trial the verdict at the time the correct one without doubt.

Eichmann was a monster of massive proportions, but he could not have carried out his mission without the acquiescence of Zionist leaders both local and internationally. He was brought to Israel not as a war criminal but to cleanse Zionism’s soul and begin the process of rewriting history. At the time there were hundreds of war criminals being given sanctuary in the USA after being spirited away from any trial or recognition of their crimes. I am not just talking about the scientists, there were military, political and high ranking Nazi financers who found a safe home with Uncle Sam. Not once did the Israelis demand the extradition or seek to kidnap any of these “gentlemen and woman” of the Third Reich

Billions of dollars have been collected and spent on rewriting the history of Zionism and its Jewish state. Those that have questioned any part of it are airbrushed out of history as in the case of 2 of only 5 prisoners to escape from Auschwitz. Rudolph Vbra and Alfred Wetzler not only escaped but did so to warn the world of what was going on at Auschwitz. You would think these heroes would be lauded right up there with Ben Gurion wouldn’t you. Sorry but they were a part of the truth trying to be buried in Tel Aviv. The report they gave to leading Zionist members within Rumania was never acted upon with each passage down the line it was held up and blocked. The reason they claim it would have interfered with the negotiations Kasztner was doing with Eichmann. For this their names are removed from any mention of the Holocaust history, Yad Vashem call them “ two young Slovak Jews”  Books that where written before the rewrite of history that did name them are rewritten to follow Yad Vashem and either omit them completely or describe then as Yad vashem do.

Then there are the hundreds maybe even thousands of Jewish intellectuals who have come out wanting answers, They are either ignored, subjected to discrimination and hounded out of Israel, or the re-writers in true Stalinist fashion go to town on their character and they become “discredited people or loony lefties”

In spite of the massive work undertaken by “The Holocaust Industry” these real heroes of the Jewish people prevail, as Lincoln prophesised you can’t fool all the people all of the time.

I ask you all if you are in anyway interested in world affairs you have to go and read the real history of Zionism. There are many books out there that will show you what the truth is and why Israel is so important to the imperialist plans for this world. The people of Israel are asking questions that forces the Zionist regime into a conflict they know they cannot win. To defeat them would allow a secular single state of Jew, Arab and Christian to live and work side by side. It is not Jew or Arab that wants the fight to continue the killing it is Zionism and its American backers. The rightwing Arab regimes and groups will have no control over the Palestinian people once the two people unite. Their power rests on the refusal of Israel,  America and Europe to bring justice to the Palestinian people.

Fascism in Europe came out of the financial collapse of world markets in the 30s we are heading towards something that is predicted to become far worse than that.

On Mid East history:
Alan Hart:  The Real Enemy of The Jews 2 volumes
Robert Fisk: The Great War for Civilisation
Pauk Findley:They Dare To Speak Out 
John Rose: The Myths of Zionism
Jonathan Cook: Blood and Religion




On the Holocaust then and now:
Norman Finkelstein: The Holocaust Industry
Lenni Brenner; Zionism in the Age of the Dictators
Tony Greestein:Zionism and Anti-Semitism
B Hecht: Perfidy
G Reitlinger: The Final Solution
F Nicosia: The Third Reich and the Palestine Qurestion

On Zionism’s cover up:
H. Arendt: Eichmann in Jerusalem
R Linn: Escaping from Auschwitz
RVrba: I Escaped from Auschwitz

There are many websites that will also aid you in understanding the world you live in and the dangers posed by the lining up of right wing Fascist, Zionists and religious fundamentalists. Take the time you may be glad of it sooner than you think. Remember once they remove the first fighting line the rest becomes easy for them.

There are too many to list so IM me I will send you some
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 11:28:43 am by DannyD »
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #76 on: February 10, 2008, 11:49:53 am »
Deal with the issues

I’ve no idea whether anyone’s interested in this stuff. I look down the page at the amount I’ve written and think “you’re a loony Yorky”! But, I dunno, sometimes it’s good to get your thoughts in order. And the subject is important. Anyone interested in the general stuff might want to read the first few paras and the concluding ones. Beyond that it’s a detailed correction to DannyD’s astonishingly misleading posts. The stuff on Kastner is amongst the most misleading, but I'll save that for another day. I should add perhaps that what follows is all my own work and not – as is the case with my adversary - something I found on google.

There are two revisionist myths about the holocaust, both equally ideological, both utterly crackpot.

1 That it didn’t happen. That indeed it was “the biggest hoax of the 20th century”.
2 That it did happen, but that it was the product of Nazi-Zionist collaboration. 

Number 1 is familiar to many people because it is linked with the discredited name of David Irving. Those who believe it, and certainly those who contribute to it, are usually on the Neo-Nazi Far Right. Number 2, which is DannyD’s preferred interpretation, is less familiar but is probably believed by more people. Back in the 1970s it was linked with Stalinism and its propaganda arm, the Soviet telegraph agency. Today it’s peddled by the ultra-left and, I guess, the jihadist right in the Middle East. The idea, if you haven’t quite got it from DannyD’s posts, is that Zionists and Nazis shared a creed (both were racist), and that, as a movement, Zionism collaborated with Nazism even while it was killing 6 million European Jews. Moreover it did both of these things in order to expedite a Jewish state in Palestine. The only reason today that Zionists wish to remember the Holocaust is to extort money out of the German government and Swiss banks and – more importantly – to raise their own score in the suffering stakes against the Palestinian Arabs.

That’s quite a charge-sheet. I can imagine many Jews getting upset with it. But is it right?

The first thing to say is that no mainstream scholars accept it. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong of course, and I can imagine that many who do believe the equation Zionism = Nazism will argue that there’s a sort of Jewish conspiracy to keep the truth out of the public realm – the sinister tentacles belonging, of course, to Yad Vashem (the holocuast institute in Israel), ‘the Jewish lobby’ in America, and the Jewish-controlled/intimidated media, academic publishing houses and universities of the West. (We had a little taste of this when DannyD speculated that Hilberg – Hilberg of all people! - had been coerced into correcting ‘errors’ in his book by the faceless men of Yad Vashem). But I think the main reason why no serious student of the holocaust accepts the idea that the Nazis and zionists worked on the holocaust together is that it’s overwhelming nonsense.

There are two fundamental reasons why.

For one thing all Jews – including zionist Jews – were regarded as ‘sub-human’ by the Nazis. At no point did the Nazis ask a Jew if he or she was a zionist during that person’s transit to the gas chambers of Auschwitz or Treblinka. It simply didn’t matter to the Gestapo or SS. Nor did any single Jew ever save himself from the ovens by saying “I’m a Zionist!” That might seem obvious, but somehow DannyD never gets to saying it.

Second, there is no such thing as ‘Zionism’. Not in the way that DannyD and his cohorts use it. Zionism was a nationalist movement, and like all other nationalist movements fighting for ‘liberation’ it contained many elements, from extreme left to extreme right. There were marxist zionists and there were fascist zionists - and a whole load of shades in between. It was, if you like, a technicolour dream-coat of a movement, and some of the colours were indeed lurid. The marxists and (especially) the fascists were small in numbers, but they existed.

It’s no surprise then that DannyD – following the pseudo-scholar Lenni Brenner – likes to quote the fascists to make his points. He doesn’t call them that by the way. He simply calls them ‘zionists’. Brenner is particularly fond of the murderous Stern Gang (or ‘Lehi’), a breakaway of a breakaway of a breakaway from mainstream zionism. His 51 documents rely heavily on stuff from Lehi, an organisation never exceeding 100 people! They were indeed a nasty and treacherous bunch with some horrible right-wing ideas. They fought the British rulers in Palestine during the Second World War, they murdered Arabs for political reasons and they made overtures to the Nazis (never reciprocated by the way) because they believed a British defeat would pave the way for Zion. But they were a small, unrepresentative sect. It would be as ridiculous to pass them off as the authentic voice of zionism as it would be for me to promote the Nazi-saluting Blue-Shirts as the authentic voice of Irish nationalism, or the Indian National Army (the merry band of deluded men who fought with the Japanese against the Allies in 1942-45) as the real voice of the Indian freedom movement. But that’s what DannyD always does. It’s what Brenner does too. The Stern Gang, and occasionally Irgun, become the representative voice of ‘Zionism’.

Brenner’s collection of 51 documents, subtitled Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis, serves as a kind of candy-store for greedy little DannyD-types. A handful of heavily-edited documents contained there are repeatedly quoted, over and over again, in order to prove the thesis that the Nazis and ‘Zionists’ helped each other achieve their goals. Many of the documents were first edited and popularised in the Soviet Union in the 1970s. They featured in books like The Dirty Tentacles of the Zionists by J Bohatka and The Sinister Secrets of Zionism by L Korneyev. Brenner himself draws on the work of an East German propagandist called Klaus Polkehn. The Soviet Union’s gone now (praise be), but Brenner’s work is faithfully quoted on sites like ‘Stormfront’ and ‘Blood and Soil’ (no guessing what they believe in).

As for Brenner’s documents themselves, eight are from the Stern Gang (see above) and 14 more from Jabotinsky’s Revisionist Zionists (extreme right-wing and therefore prone to sounding like Nazis on questions of race, but nevertheless ferocious fighters in the ZZW against the Nazis in Warsaw and elsewhere). Other ‘collaborationists’ in Brenner’s collection are Albert Einstein and Winston Churchill. Yes, that’s Winston Churchill, “fight them on the beaches” and all that. A Nazi-collaborator!  It’s just pitiful.

Then there are several documents which show how zionism’s belief that a Jewish State would create a ‘new Jew’ and blow away the ‘old’ European one. Brenner takes this to mean that they shared a world-view similar to the Nazis, who also wanted to blow away the European Jew. This is similar to the stunt pulled by Goldhagen in his book Hitler’s Willing Executioners which would quote German socialists and marxists dreaming of the day the ‘ghetto Jew’ disappeared in order to show they shared the Nazi desire to "eliminate" the Jew. It’s ridiculous.

I’ll be blowing my nose on some of the other Brenner documents in this rebuttal, but it’s probably worth me pointing out now that the longest document in the collection is Adolf Eichmann’s ‘memoir’ which Life magazine published in 1960. In fact the document is so long Brenner splits it into two and calls it “two documents”! That’s odd enough, but what’s even odder (at least to anyone with half a mind) is that Eichmann’s self-serving attempt to pass the blame for the atrocities committed by his SS department on to the Jews (the ‘Zionists’) is understood by Brenner (and DannyD) to be the honest truth.  It’s like nodding approval at a serial rapist saying in court “She was asking for it. Blame her. She’s as bad as me. She led me on”. We wouldn’t do it, would we?

Only someone with a fucking big axe to grind would take Eichmann’s lying self-defence and use it to excoriate his victims.

When Hitler came to power
This is what can be said about Zionism and Nazism in January 1933. Neither believed the Jews had a future in Germany. It sounds shocking doesn’t it? It makes a certain underdeveloped mind want to say “There! They both wanted to get rid of the Jews! Hitler must have been a Zionist, and the Zionists must have been Nazis!”

This process is happily moved along by doing the one thing all historians are told never to do – viz, applying hindsight to everything. Use a complacent Jewish quote from 1933, put it next to the word ‘Auschwitz’, and you already have the makings of a satanic collaboration! But there’s nothing honest to be gained from assuming that any Jew, or any zionist, believed in 1933 that Nazism would result in the genocidal killing of 6 million Jews. No one believed that.

What the zionists did believe in 1933 was that it was foolish of German Jews to cling to the old liberal hope that assimilation was still an option in Nazi Germany. Therefore they turned their backs completely on policies designed to liberalise (or intimidate) the Nazi regime into behaving better. They rejected the calls for an economic boycott of Germany for example. Nor did they grumble over-much at the Nuremburg Laws which seemed to them to prove the zionist point that Jews could never expect a square deal outside Zion. In place of these things they put all their efforts into getting German Jews into the only place they believed was safe. That place, obviously, was Palestine - and 165,000 did escape central Europe for Palestine between 1933-38. Many of them did so illegally. Had the Nazis triumphed in the second world war then Palestine would not have been a safe haven for the Jews. That helps explain why so many Palestinian Jews fought for the Allies in the war.

The zionists may have been wrong in their attitude to Nazi Germany. Maybe they ought to have campaigned against the Nuremburg Laws and maybe they ought to have clamoured for an economic boycott. There again, perhaps they were right. There wasn’t exactly a popular movement of ordinary Germans clamping at the bit to help the Jews. Nor, despite the reputation of ‘Red Vienna’ were there many Austrians telling Hitler to ‘go home’ after the anschluss. And nor did the prospects for assimilation and legal equality look good in Germany or Austria so long as Hitler was ‘Heiled’ every morning. 

By 1940 more German and Polish Jews must have wished they’d listened to the zionists, packed up everything and headed out for Palestine. Until 1938, it’s true, the Nazis were happy to see them go. They didn’t particularly care where the Jews went to - Palestine, Britain, America, Argentina. The important thing was that they left – oh, yes, and left their property, their businesses and their bank balances behind when they closed the door.

Shall we call this “collaboration”? The idea is absurd.

Now I can see DannyD rustling for his first Brenner document. This will be Haavarah Agreement of August 27th 1933. This agreement allowed emigrating Jews to transfer a certain amount of property to Palestine (the option was not open to those emigrating to other parts of Europe). Brenner does add a sheepish little footnote (page 47) to the effect that “the conditions of this pact changed over the ‘30s, always in favour of the Hitlerites”. You bet they did! Right from the start there were important dissenting voices in the Nazi hierarchy who strongly opposed the Jewish emigration to Palestine. They got their lead from an impeccable authority – Adolf Hitler.  In Mein Kamp Hitler dismissed zionism with the following sentence: “All they want is a central organisation for their international world swindle, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scroundrels and a university for budding crooks”. He also said “this apparent struggle between Zionist and Liberal Jews disgusted me, for it was false through and through, founded on lies” (quoted Lucy Dawidowicz, The War against the Jews 1933-1945 Penguin p. 119). He seems to like zionists even less than DannyD!

By 1937 the Nazi opponents of emigration to Palestine had received a boost from the German consulate in Jerusalem who had decided that “the formation of a Jewish state here is not in Germany’s interest”. By mid-1937 Foreign Minister von Neurath started to construct a Palestinian policy along the lines outlined by Mein Kamp. A Jewish homeland in Palestine, he said, “would create additional power bases for international Jewry somewhat like the Vatican State for political Catholicism or Moscow for the Comintern. That is why it is in the interest of Germany to contribute to the strengthening of the Arab world in order to offset…the increased power of world Jewry” (Documents on German Foreign Policy Series D, vol 5 pp. 746-47). 

This concern found an echo where it really mattered – in the SS. Richard Evans, The Third Reich in Power (Penguin p. 557) says that the key event was the creation of the Jewish Affairs Division of the SS in 1935. “It was led by an increasingly radical group of young officers, including…Adolf Eichmann. These men became progressively more anxious that encouraging Jews to go to Palestine would accelerate the formation of a Jewish state there, with dangerous consequences for Germany in the long run”. Eichmann’s agency was more concerned with plundering the assets of the emigrant Jews than with giving them a helping hand (Evans p. 661). Indeed, after visiting Palestine in 1937 with his boss Herbert Hagan, Eichmann co-signed a document rejecting a plan to boost Jewish emigration to the Middle east with these words: “The emigration of 50,000 Jews annually would strengthen Judaism in Palestine and considering that according to the policy of the Reich the establishment of an independent state of the Jews in Palestine should be prevented this plan cannot be subject for discussion” (quoted D Cesarani, Becoming Eichmann Da Capo Press 2004 p. 55).

Haavarah (or what was left of it) did not die straight away, but it was a dead letter by the end of 1938. But you’d never know it from reading Brenner.

It was at this point (1937-38) that the Nazis started courting the ‘other side’ in Palestine – ie the Grand Mufti Muhammed Amin al-Husseini. This man eventually became a good buddy of Adolf Eichmann’s and the grateful recipient of German arms shipped to him via Saudi Arabia. The Mufti, of course, went on to greater things by hob-nobbing with Hitler and Heinrich Himmler…..but that’s another story.

* * *
You can certainly condemn the zionist organisations for underestimating Hitler. But who can’t you condemn for this? The British government underestimated him, the French government did, the Roman Catholic church did, the Protestant denominations did, the Communist Party of Germany (KPD) did. And so did many German Jews. According to Saul Friedlander, “There was no sense of panic or even urgency” among Jews when Hitler took power in 1933 (Nazi Germany and the Jews vol 1 Weidenfeld and Nicolson 1997 p. 15). Many believed that the violence and hateful rhetoric of the Nazis would be moderated by the experience of government. Many believed that Hitler’s armed gangs would now come under the rule of law.

It is in this context that one ought to judge the 23rd June 1933 document that DannyD copies from Brenner: the one from the German Zionist Federation calling for a modus vivendi with the Hitler regime. Today it makes embarrassing reading. No doubt about it. It was opportunist and it was grovelling. But it’s inept – or dishonest - to read the document without understanding the relations of power behind it. Do I really have to spell it out DannyD? The Nazis were driving the car. The Jews were tied by a rope to its rear bumper.  Lucy Dawidowicz (The War Against the Jews pp 231-2) puts too kind a gloss on the document for my liking, but she does usefully remind us that the Nazis never replied to it (odd sort of ‘collaboration’ that). DannyD’s posts always make it sound like the Nazis and the Zionists were equal partners. That the Jews could somehow go to the SS on an equal footing. It’s history with the economics and the policemen ripped out! 

It’s a similar story of distortion with the Chaim Weizmann quote. DannyD has posted Brenner’s version of the 1937 presidential speech to the Zionist congress several times. This is the one where Weizmann says “The old ones will pass. They will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic or moral dust in a cruel world.” The clear insinuation is that Weizmann was no different to the Nazis in calling people “dust” and that, foreseeing the holocaust, he heartlessly left the European Jews to their grisly fate. What DannyD doesn’t mention is that in the same speech Weizmann went on to outline a plan for accelerating the rate of immigration to Palestine by 150% - that would have allowed 2 million Jews to live in Palestine.

But there’s an obvious problem there, is there not? One that DannyD, wearing his other hat (a fez, if I may be so bold), would be up and raving about. Increasing the number of Jewish emigrants to Palestine? But it’s an Arab land!

Of course Palestine was neither Jewish nor Arab at the time. It was British. And the British controlled immigration. It was the British Mandatory power that set the quotas on Jewish immigration to Palestine. At no point does DannyD mention this basic fact. How could he? It would spoil the emphasis he puts of “selectivity” which he seems to think puts the zionists into the same racist boat as the Nazis. Here’s DannyD:

“Selectivity was a major part of Zionist policy. Non-Zionists were overlooked as were the old infirm or those who were not useful in Palestine”.

That’s correct. At least so far as it goes. Zionism was built on the belief that a national homeland would create a ‘new Jew’. Whereas the ‘old Jew’ in Europe had been ghettoised and confined by law to certain ‘non-productive’ occupations, the ‘new Jew’ would be familiar with all the stuff he’d been denied in Europe – spanners, engines, cranes, steam-hammers, spades, picks, hoes, tractors, and guns. The new homeland needed these skills, said the zionists, more than they needed usurers, talmudic scholars or merchants. This was ‘selectivity’.  It wasn’t a species of Nazism, any more than ‘selective’ immigration controls in the UK, or USA, or Australia are a species of Nazism. Countries always tend to tailor immigration to their occupational requirements. Given the historic distortion of the Jewish occupational profile ‘selectivity’ was arguably even more important.

But, inevitably, after the Nazis came to power, and Jews started to think about leaving Germany, the zionist belief in ‘selectivity’ was put under more and more pressure. In an ideal situation the zionists had wanted enthusiastic and qualified pioneers. Now they were being asked to take desperate refugees.  And, as a result, they began to punch holes in ‘selectivity’ in order to save Jews who were under the most duress. In 1938 the Jewish Agency (JA) apologized to its representatives abroad: “The terrible plight of the Jews in Austria and Germany has forced us to assign half our quota to them…We hope that the other countries will accept this necessary sacrifice for the Jews of Austria and Germany”. (Tom Segev, The Seventh Million. The Israelis and the Holocaust  Hill and Wang 1993 p. 45).

Similarly the zionist leader David Ben-Gurion told the British High Commissioner that “regardless of our Zionist beliefs” the Jewish Agency was prepared to support the wholesale shifting of Poland’s Jewish population to Argentina or the USA. (S Teveth, Ben-Gurion and the Holocaust, Harcourt & Brace 1996 p. 126). After the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact he also said this (29 Feb 1940): “I do not give priority to the interests of the Jewish community in Eretz-Israel over those of the Jews of Germany or any other country. The fate of the 3 million Jews in Poland worries me more than the fate of the 500,000 Jews in Eretz-Israel” (Dina Porat, Israeli Society, the Holocaust and its Survivors Valentine-Mitchell 2008 p. 16). The JA would probably have liked to have punched even bigger holes in its ‘selectivity’ policy. But, as I said, the number of visas for Palestine was fixed by the British.

DannyD mentions the 1938 Evian Conference, called by Roosevelt, to discuss Jewish emigration from Germany, and – naturally – sees it as yet another example of Zionist perfidy. He makes it sound as if the world’s leading powers were simply waiting for a Zionist spokesman to say “Yes please, take as many as you like” and that they closed their doors on European Jewry simply because “the Zionists” weren’t clamorous enough. This is kiddy history. Saul Friedlander, a brilliant holocaust historian who has studied the documents, says that “the outcome of Evian was decided before it was even convened…No doors opened at Evian, and no hope was offered to the refugees” (p. 248). Bernard Wasserstein (Britain and the Jews  Oxford University Press p. 9) says Evian “proved to be the occasion for a dismal series of speeches by the delegate of country after country, each of whom demonstrated the inability of his nation, notwithstanding the deepest sympathy and generosity towards the refugees, to absorb further numbers of immigrants”. One wry British civil servant, surveying the response of the colonial governments wrote “I don’t know what’s wrong with the colonial Empire, but its absorptive capacity seems to be nil” (p. 47). Nazi sarcasm, inevitably, had a field day after this. Evian seemed to show that nobody cared for the Jews.

What about the Dominican Republic’s offer to take 100,000 refugees, asks DannyD? Well yes, it was a serious offer. But common sense tells you it came too late in the day. The Zionists certainly didn’t sabotage it! The Dominican Settlement Association Inc was set up in 1939 but the first Jewish settlers didn’t arrive until 1940. By then, the Third Reich’s doors had closed (WD Rubinstein, The Myth of Rescue, Routledge 1997 p. 38).

The war
DannyD wants people to believe that ‘Zionism’ happily went to work with the Nazis during the war. He lets go a thin stream of piss for an argument, but even a thimble-full eventually begins to stink if you don’t mop it up.

His old friend ‘selectivity’ is raised again. And, yes, there were zionist voices which continued to talk of ‘selectivity’ after 1942 – ie as the Final Solution was under way. Not surprisingly DannyD finds one in Brenner – Yitzak Gruenbaum, the chairman of the JA’s rescue committee. But again the relevant document is bowdlerised (by Brenner) in order to fit his bizarre thesis of collaboration. The quote comes from a memorandum drawn up on 18th January 1943. It’s an amazing document because it shows the leaders of the Jewish Agency in Palestine debating their options at the moment the news is coming in from Europe of something horrendous and extraordinary. Much of the document and the minutes it generated can be found in Tom Segev’s book pp 99-103 (Again, I should point out that Segev is a highly-respected left-wing Israeli historian. The book is hugely critical of the Jewish Agency and also of Israel’s ‘offical’ view of the holocaust, but it is fair and tries to see the thing historically rather than ideologically).

In the document Apolinari Hartglass, a Polish Jew, says that the rescue committee could only achieve “a drop in the ocean”. He hoped “the will to live” would save many European Jews, but thought the zionists themselves could not rescue more than 12,000. Yehudi Bahar said that “it is clear that under the conditions of war than can be no selecting of material” and that the rescue committee was bringing “those whom we could bring (to Palestine)”. Ben-Gurion said he no longer agreed that zionists should be given preference over non-zionists. Golda Meir, the future leader of Israel, said that in the face of the holocaust there was “no Zionism other than saving Jews. We cannot talk about immigration in the same way that we spoke about it 10 years ago…Now it is a question of bringing every Jew – not because he is a farmer, but because he is a Jew and in the ghetto”. Yosef Sprinzak said “What do we need at this moment? Not a Zionist programme but something very simple: a varm Yiddish hartz (a warm Jewish heart).

Now DannyD does not quote any of these people, because they don’t fit with his theory. He doesn’t even let us know that a debate was going on. He selects the Gruenbaum quote instead – and the worst part of it – in order to show the racist cruelty of the rescue committee. If DannyD had read a bit further on (or his source had quoted a bit more of the document) he’d have seen that Gruenbaum also said this: “We must not leave a stone unturned to stop the massacre. We must demand retaliation and …join forces with the Poles who demand this”. But given the inability to save everyone he stuck to his policy of trying to rescue the “best” Jews for Palestine. To him that meant the ones who already believed in the idea of a Jewish homeland and were fit enough to contribute to its growth. Gruenbaum knew what he was saying: “They will say that I am anti-semitic. That I don’t want to save the Exile, that I don’t have a varm Yiddish hartz”. Gruenbaum’s son (a zionist by the way), was already in Auschwitz, and he knew this too.

His policy was wrong I think. The others were right. But I don’t know anyone apart from DannyD who could read the exchange without perceiving the dilemma. Let alone accusing everyone there of being a ‘Zionist collaborator’ with Nazism. It’s incredible!

I mean, what did these “Zionist collaborators” think of the Final Solution? Ben-Gurion was neither indifferent to the fate of its victims nor hopeful it would help the zionist cause, as DannyD always implies. On the contrary he thought it would put an end to it. “The extermination of European Jewry is a catastrophe for Zionism”, he said in December 1942: “There won’t be anyone left to build the country with!” (Tom Segev, The Seventh Million p. 97). Later he famously declared “The State appeared and did not find the Nation that awaited it”. Now you might call this attitude selfish. You might even say it’s defeatist. But it’s hardly indifferent. And it certainly isn’t collaborationist.

But what about all the zionists who fought for the Wehrmacht?......Oh, sorry, there weren’t any. The 40,000 Jews in Palestine (I guess we can call them Zionists?) who signed up to fight in the war all signed up for the British side. That represented a stonking one third of all male breadwinners. Funny, but DannyD doesn’t mention this inconvenient fact when he’s talking about how Zionists “looked upon the Nazis not as oppressors but as soul mates and people they could work for and with”.  Nor does he ever mention the Jewish Brigade which was raised in Palestine and which fought against the Wehrmacht in northern Italy in 1944-45. Nor is there any mention (except as a stick to beat poor old Kastner with!) of the brave young parachutists who were sent by the Jewish Agency to fight behind German lines in Yugoslavia, Rumania and Bulgaria. And no mention either mention of the zionist attempts to persuade the Allies to bomb Auschwitz.

We should look a bit more at the last one, because DannyD has ignorantly talked about the lengths to which “Zionists went to cover up operations in that camp”. Also the man at the centre of the efforts to bomb Auschwitz was Chaim Weizmann, who DannyD has already condemned as a kind of Nazi racist. On 6th July 1944 Weizmann met the British Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden to outline a plan for bombing the railway lines leading to Auschwitz-Birkenau  and “bombing the camps themselves with the object of destroying the plant used for gassing and burning”. (Wasserstein, Britain and the Jews  pp. 310-311). The demand was supported by a detailed memorandum from Shertok of the Jewish Agency on July 11th 1944. (Much of it is printed in Martin Gilbert, Auschwitz and the Allies (1981) pp. 268-70. But it was turned down by the RAF as being too impractical.

It’s fair to add, too, that the Jewish Agency in Palestine was split over the issue. Ben-Gurion opposed bombing Auschwitz because he believed that the Allies, not the Nazis, would then take the blame for killing the Jews. On the other hand Gruenbaum (DannyD’s “collaborator”) was for it. (WD Rubinstein, The Myth of Rescue Routledge 1997 pp. 179-80.     

Weizmann also tried to persuade the Roosevelt administration to bomb Auschwitz. That too was turned aside (Raul Hilberg, Perpetrators, Victims, Bystanders. The Jewish Catastrophe 1933-1945 p. 247. By this time, it might be worth adding, Weizmann’s son (a zionist) was already dead. He didn’t die in Auschwitz (like Greenbaum’s son) but in an RAF bomber, after being shot down on U-boat patrol. Thousands upon thousands of Jews – many of them zionists – died in the Allied armed forces. Zero dies in the Axis ones.

I ask you – how can you get a balanced view of zionism’s relationship to Nazism without ever mentioning these titanic efforts to confront it directly?

To sum up
There are many people who can take a share of the blame for what happened to the Jews in these years. The democracies for not opening their doors wider and for appeasing Hitler for so long. The German Communists for seeing the Socialists as a bigger enemy than the Nazis – indeed for temporarily allying themselves with the Nazis in Prussia in 1930 in order to oust a Socialist government. The Soviet Union for its disastrous and immoral Non-Aggression Pact with Hitler in 1939 – which threw millions of East European Jews straight into the moving parts of the Nazi killing-machine. The Christian churches for denying Christ and turning their backs on their neighbours. The behaviour of the victims themselves can also be criticised – too passive, too ready to believe that the worst could not happen. And you can blame the zionists, for not trying hard enough to get stricken Jews out of occupied Europe and being too fussy, until too late, about what sort of Jew was acceptable for Palestine.

But the people who are responsible for Shoah are not any of these groups. They are the Nazis. Full stop. They alone will carry the full unvarnished contempt of history.

Those, like DannyD, who see Shoah as a Nazi-Zionist collaboration are off their rockers. My fear is that DannyD’s travesty of history will one day become the accepted version on ‘the Arab street’ (if it isn’t already). They have an excuse in that they are deliberately kept in ignorance by their governments and don’t have access to the films, books and museums of the West. DannyD and his pals do have access to this stuff, but they’re not interested in anything unless it can be pressed and contorted into supporting their view that ‘the Zionists’ are on the same moral plane as the Nazis. They take that stand because they have certain views about the Middle East today. There are a number of zionists who take a sort of equivalent stand too. They have their own documents and photographs and incriminating telegrams to illustrate the Grand Mufti’s collaboration with Hitler as if this is the major feature of the holocaust. It isn’t. It’s a minor side note.

You cannot understand the holocaust if you simply want to use it as a political weapon in the current Arab-Israeli conflict.

That, I’m afraid, is why DannyD and his deluded pals will probably never get it.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #77 on: February 10, 2008, 12:07:22 pm »
Went to Anne Franks house in Amersterdam where she was hidden from the Germans and nearly everyone was in tears when they left.

For people to do this to other people is simply horrific, and we should never, ever forget.

I've spoken to people that have visited some of the camps and they said that there is still just something wrong there - birds don't sing and animals don't go near.

RIP all those that lost their lives.

Arguing about petty points here and there just seems somehow wrong IMO.

Terrible tragedy for the Jewish people and a Terrible Tragedy for Mankind.
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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #78 on: February 10, 2008, 03:03:55 pm »
I’ve no idea whether anyone’s interested in this stuff. I look down the page at the amount I’ve written and think “you’re a loony Yorky”! But, I dunno, sometimes it’s good to get your thoughts in order. And the subject is important. Anyone interested in the general stuff might want to read the first few paras and the concluding ones. Beyond that it’s a detailed correction to DannyD’s astonishingly misleading posts. The stuff on Kastner is amongst the most misleading, but I'll save that for another day. I should add perhaps that what follows is all my own work and not – as is the case with my adversary - something I found on google.

There are two revisionist myths about the holocaust, both equally ideological, both utterly crackpot.

1 That it didn’t happen. That indeed it was “the biggest hoax of the 20th century”.
2 That it did happen, but that it was the product of Nazi-Zionist collaboration. 

Number 1 is familiar to many people because it is linked with the discredited name of David Irving. Those who believe it, and certainly those who contribute to it, are usually on the Neo-Nazi Far Right. Number 2, which is DannyD’s preferred interpretation, is less familiar but is probably believed by more people. Back in the 1970s it was linked with Stalinism and its propaganda arm, the Soviet telegraph agency. Today it’s peddled by the ultra-left and, I guess, the jihadist right in the Middle East. The idea, if you haven’t quite got it from DannyD’s posts, is that Zionists and Nazis shared a creed (both were racist), and that, as a movement, Zionism collaborated with Nazism even while it was killing 6 million European Jews. Moreover it did both of these things in order to expedite a Jewish state in Palestine. The only reason today that Zionists wish to remember the Holocaust is to extort money out of the German government and Swiss banks and – more importantly – to raise their own score in the suffering stakes against the Palestinian Arabs.

That’s quite a charge-sheet. I can imagine many Jews getting upset with it. But is it right?

The first thing to say is that no mainstream scholars accept it. That doesn’t mean it’s wrong of course, and I can imagine that many who do believe the equation Zionism = Nazism will argue that there’s a sort of Jewish conspiracy to keep the truth out of the public realm – the sinister tentacles belonging, of course, to Yad Vashem (the holocuast institute in Israel), ‘the Jewish lobby’ in America, and the Jewish-controlled/intimidated media, academic publishing houses and universities of the West. (We had a little taste of this when DannyD speculated that Hilberg – Hilberg of all people! - had been coerced into correcting ‘errors’ in his book by the faceless men of Yad Vashem). But I think the main reason why no serious student of the holocaust accepts the idea that the Nazis and zionists worked on the holocaust together is that it’s overwhelming nonsense.

There are two fundamental reasons why.

For one thing all Jews – including zionist Jews – were regarded as ‘sub-human’ by the Nazis. At no point did the Nazis ask a Jew if he or she was a zionist during that person’s transit to the gas chambers of Auschwitz or Treblinka. It simply didn’t matter to the Gestapo or SS. Nor did any single Jew ever save himself from the ovens by saying “I’m a Zionist!” That might seem obvious, but somehow DannyD never gets to saying it.

Second, there is no such thing as ‘Zionism’. Not in the way that DannyD and his cohorts use it. Zionism was a nationalist movement, and like all other nationalist movements fighting for ‘liberation’ it contained many elements, from extreme left to extreme right. There were marxist zionists and there were fascist zionists - and a whole load of shades in between. It was, if you like, a technicolour dream-coat of a movement, and some of the colours were indeed lurid. The marxists and (especially) the fascists were small in numbers, but they existed.

It’s no surprise then that DannyD – following the pseudo-scholar Lenni Brenner – likes to quote the fascists to make his points. He doesn’t call them that by the way. He simply calls them ‘zionists’. Brenner is particularly fond of the murderous Stern Gang (or ‘Lehi’), a breakaway of a breakaway of a breakaway from mainstream zionism. His 51 documents rely heavily on stuff from Lehi, an organisation never exceeding 100 people! They were indeed a nasty and treacherous bunch with some horrible right-wing ideas. They fought the British rulers in Palestine during the Second World War, they murdered Arabs for political reasons and they made overtures to the Nazis (never reciprocated by the way) because they believed a British defeat would pave the way for Zion. But they were a small, unrepresentative sect. It would be as ridiculous to pass them off as the authentic voice of zionism as it would be for me to promote the Nazi-saluting Blue-Shirts as the authentic voice of Irish nationalism, or the Indian National Army (the merry band of deluded men who fought with the Japanese against the Allies in 1942-45) as the real voice of the Indian freedom movement. But that’s what DannyD always does. It’s what Brenner does too. The Stern Gang, and occasionally Irgun, become the representative voice of ‘Zionism’.

Brenner’s collection of 51 documents, subtitled Zionist Collaboration with the Nazis, serves as a kind of candy-store for greedy little DannyD-types. A handful of heavily-edited documents contained there are repeatedly quoted, over and over again, in order to prove the thesis that the Nazis and ‘Zionists’ helped each other achieve their goals. Many of the documents were first edited and popularised in the Soviet Union in the 1970s. They featured in books like The Dirty Tentacles of the Zionists by J Bohatka and The Sinister Secrets of Zionism by L Korneyev. Brenner himself draws on the work of an East German propagandist called Klaus Polkehn. The Soviet Union’s gone now (praise be), but Brenner’s work is faithfully quoted on sites like ‘Stormfront’ and ‘Blood and Soil’ (no guessing what they believe in).

As for Brenner’s documents themselves, eight are from the Stern Gang (see above) and 14 more from Jabotinsky’s Revisionist Zionists (extreme right-wing and therefore prone to sounding like Nazis on questions of race, but nevertheless ferocious fighters in the ZZW against the Nazis in Warsaw and elsewhere). Other ‘collaborationists’ in Brenner’s collection are Albert Einstein and Winston Churchill. Yes, that’s Winston Churchill, “fight them on the beaches” and all that. A Nazi-collaborator!  It’s just pitiful.

Then there are several documents which show how zionism’s belief that a Jewish State would create a ‘new Jew’ and blow away the ‘old’ European one. Brenner takes this to mean that they shared a world-view similar to the Nazis, who also wanted to blow away the European Jew. This is similar to the stunt pulled by Goldhagen in his book Hitler’s Willing Executioners which would quote German socialists and marxists dreaming of the day the ‘ghetto Jew’ disappeared in order to show they shared the Nazi desire to "eliminate" the Jew. It’s ridiculous.

I’ll be blowing my nose on some of the other Brenner documents in this rebuttal, but it’s probably worth me pointing out now that the longest document in the collection is Adolf Eichmann’s ‘memoir’ which Life magazine published in 1960. In fact the document is so long Brenner splits it into two and calls it “two documents”! That’s odd enough, but what’s even odder (at least to anyone with half a mind) is that Eichmann’s self-serving attempt to pass the blame for the atrocities committed by his SS department on to the Jews (the ‘Zionists’) is understood by Brenner (and DannyD) to be the honest truth.  It’s like nodding approval at a serial rapist saying in court “She was asking for it. Blame her. She’s as bad as me. She led me on”. We wouldn’t do it, would we?

Only someone with a fucking big axe to grind would take Eichmann’s lying self-defence and use it to excoriate his victims.

When Hitler came to power
This is what can be said about Zionism and Nazism in January 1933. Neither believed the Jews had a future in Germany. It sounds shocking doesn’t it? It makes a certain underdeveloped mind want to say “There! They both wanted to get rid of the Jews! Hitler must have been a Zionist, and the Zionists must have been Nazis!”

This process is happily moved along by doing the one thing all historians are told never to do – viz, applying hindsight to everything. Use a complacent Jewish quote from 1933, put it next to the word ‘Auschwitz’, and you already have the makings of a satanic collaboration! But there’s nothing honest to be gained from assuming that any Jew, or any zionist, believed in 1933 that Nazism would result in the genocidal killing of 6 million Jews. No one believed that.

What the zionists did believe in 1933 was that it was foolish of German Jews to cling to the old liberal hope that assimilation was still an option in Nazi Germany. Therefore they turned their backs completely on policies designed to liberalise (or intimidate) the Nazi regime into behaving better. They rejected the calls for an economic boycott of Germany for example. Nor did they grumble over-much at the Nuremburg Laws which seemed to them to prove the zionist point that Jews could never expect a square deal outside Zion. In place of these things they put all their efforts into getting German Jews into the only place they believed was safe. That place, obviously, was Palestine - and 165,000 did escape central Europe for Palestine between 1933-38. Many of them did so illegally. Had the Nazis triumphed in the second world war then Palestine would not have been a safe haven for the Jews. That helps explain why so many Palestinian Jews fought for the Allies in the war.

The zionists may have been wrong in their attitude to Nazi Germany. Maybe they ought to have campaigned against the Nuremburg Laws and maybe they ought to have clamoured for an economic boycott. There again, perhaps they were right. There wasn’t exactly a popular movement of ordinary Germans clamping at the bit to help the Jews. Nor, despite the reputation of ‘Red Vienna’ were there many Austrians telling Hitler to ‘go home’ after the anschluss. And nor did the prospects for assimilation and legal equality look good in Germany or Austria so long as Hitler was ‘Heiled’ every morning. 

By 1940 more German and Polish Jews must have wished they’d listened to the zionists, packed up everything and headed out for Palestine. Until 1938, it’s true, the Nazis were happy to see them go. They didn’t particularly care where the Jews went to - Palestine, Britain, America, Argentina. The important thing was that they left – oh, yes, and left their property, their businesses and their bank balances behind when they closed the door.

Shall we call this “collaboration”? The idea is absurd.

Now I can see DannyD rustling for his first Brenner document. This will be Haavarah Agreement of August 27th 1933. This agreement allowed emigrating Jews to transfer a certain amount of property to Palestine (the option was not open to those emigrating to other parts of Europe). Brenner does add a sheepish little footnote (page 47) to the effect that “the conditions of this pact changed over the ‘30s, always in favour of the Hitlerites”. You bet they did! Right from the start there were important dissenting voices in the Nazi hierarchy who strongly opposed the Jewish emigration to Palestine. They got their lead from an impeccable authority – Adolf Hitler.  In Mein Kamp Hitler dismissed zionism with the following sentence: “All they want is a central organisation for their international world swindle, endowed with its own sovereign rights and removed from the intervention of other states: a haven for convicted scroundrels and a university for budding crooks”. He also said “this apparent struggle between Zionist and Liberal Jews disgusted me, for it was false through and through, founded on lies” (quoted Lucy Dawidowicz, The War against the Jews 1933-1945 Penguin p. 119). He seems to like zionists even less than DannyD!

By 1937 the Nazi opponents of emigration to Palestine had received a boost from the German consulate in Jerusalem who had decided that “the formation of a Jewish state here is not in Germany’s interest”. By mid-1937 Foreign Minister von Neurath started to construct a Palestinian policy along the lines outlined by Mein Kamp. A Jewish homeland in Palestine, he said, “would create additional power bases for international Jewry somewhat like the Vatican State for political Catholicism or Moscow for the Comintern. That is why it is in the interest of Germany to contribute to the strengthening of the Arab world in order to offset…the increased power of world Jewry” (Documents on German Foreign Policy Series D, vol 5 pp. 746-47). 

This concern found an echo where it really mattered – in the SS. Richard Evans, The Third Reich in Power (Penguin p. 557) says that the key event was the creation of the Jewish Affairs Division of the SS in 1935. “It was led by an increasingly radical group of young officers, including…Adolf Eichmann. These men became progressively more anxious that encouraging Jews to go to Palestine would accelerate the formation of a Jewish state there, with dangerous consequences for Germany in the long run”. Eichmann’s agency was more concerned with plundering the assets of the emigrant Jews than with giving them a helping hand (Evans p. 661). Indeed, after visiting Palestine in 1937 with his boss Herbert Hagan, Eichmann co-signed a document rejecting a plan to boost Jewish emigration to the Middle east with these words: “The emigration of 50,000 Jews annually would strengthen Judaism in Palestine and considering that according to the policy of the Reich the establishment of an independent state of the Jews in Palestine should be prevented this plan cannot be subject for discussion” (quoted D Cesarani, Becoming Eichmann Da Capo Press 2004 p. 55).

Haavarah (or what was left of it) did not die straight away, but it was a dead letter by the end of 1938. But you’d never know it from reading Brenner.

It was at this point (1937-38) that the Nazis started courting the ‘other side’ in Palestine – ie the Grand Mufti Muhammed Amin al-Husseini. This man eventually became a good buddy of Adolf Eichmann’s and the grateful recipient of German arms shipped to him via Saudi Arabia. The Mufti, of course, went on to greater things by hob-nobbing with Hitler and Heinrich Himmler…..but that’s another story.

* * *
You can certainly condemn the zionist organisations for underestimating Hitler. But who can’t you condemn for this? The British government underestimated him, the French government did, the Roman Catholic church did, the Protestant denominations did, the Communist Party of Germany (KPD) did. And so did many German Jews. According to Saul Friedlander, “There was no sense of panic or even urgency” among Jews when Hitler took power in 1933 (Nazi Germany and the Jews vol 1 Weidenfeld and Nicolson 1997 p. 15). Many believed that the violence and hateful rhetoric of the Nazis would be moderated by the experience of government. Many believed that Hitler’s armed gangs would now come under the rule of law.

It is in this context that one ought to judge the 23rd June 1933 document that DannyD copies from Brenner: the one from the German Zionist Federation calling for a modus vivendi with the Hitler regime. Today it makes embarrassing reading. No doubt about it. It was opportunist and it was grovelling. But it’s inept – or dishonest - to read the document without understanding the relations of power behind it. Do I really have to spell it out DannyD? The Nazis were driving the car. The Jews were tied by a rope to its rear bumper.  Lucy Dawidowicz (The War Against the Jews pp 231-2) puts too kind a gloss on the document for my liking, but she does usefully remind us that the Nazis never replied to it (odd sort of ‘collaboration’ that). DannyD’s posts always make it sound like the Nazis and the Zionists were equal partners. That the Jews could somehow go to the SS on an equal footing. It’s history with the economics and the policemen ripped out! 

It’s a similar story of distortion with the Chaim Weizmann quote. DannyD has posted Brenner’s version of the 1937 presidential speech to the Zionist congress several times. This is the one where Weizmann says “The old ones will pass. They will bear their fate or they will not. They are dust, economic or moral dust in a cruel world.” The clear insinuation is that Weizmann was no different to the Nazis in calling people “dust” and that, foreseeing the holocaust, he heartlessly left the European Jews to their grisly fate. What DannyD doesn’t mention is that in the same speech Weizmann went on to outline a plan for accelerating the rate of immigration to Palestine by 150% - that would have allowed 2 million Jews to live in Palestine.

But there’s an obvious problem there, is there not? One that DannyD, wearing his other hat (a fez, if I may be so bold), would be up and raving about. Increasing the number of Jewish emigrants to Palestine? But it’s an Arab land!

Of course Palestine was neither Jewish nor Arab at the time. It was British. And the British controlled immigration. It was the British Mandatory power that set the quotas on Jewish immigration to Palestine. At no point does DannyD mention this basic fact. How could he? It would spoil the emphasis he puts of “selectivity” which he seems to think puts the zionists into the same racist boat as the Nazis. Here’s DannyD:

“Selectivity was a major part of Zionist policy. Non-Zionists were overlooked as were the old infirm or those who were not useful in Palestine”.

That’s correct. At least so far as it goes. Zionism was built on the belief that a national homeland would create a ‘new Jew’. Whereas the ‘old Jew’ in Europe had been ghettoised and confined by law to certain ‘non-productive’ occupations, the ‘new Jew’ would be familiar with all the stuff he’d been denied in Europe – spanners, engines, cranes, steam-hammers, spades, picks, hoes, tractors, and guns. The new homeland needed these skills, said the zionists, more than they needed usurers, talmudic scholars or merchants. This was ‘selectivity’.  It wasn’t a species of Nazism, any more than ‘selective’ immigration controls in the UK, or USA, or Australia are a species of Nazism. Countries always tend to tailor immigration to their occupational requirements. Given the historic distortion of the Jewish occupational profile ‘selectivity’ was arguably even more important.

But, inevitably, after the Nazis came to power, and Jews started to think about leaving Germany, the zionist belief in ‘selectivity’ was put under more and more pressure. In an ideal situation the zionists had wanted enthusiastic and qualified pioneers. Now they were being asked to take desperate refugees.  And, as a result, they began to punch holes in ‘selectivity’ in order to save Jews who were under the most duress. In 1938 the Jewish Agency (JA) apologized to its representatives abroad: “The terrible plight of the Jews in Austria and Germany has forced us to assign half our quota to them…We hope that the other countries will accept this necessary sacrifice for the Jews of Austria and Germany”. (Tom Segev, The Seventh Million. The Israelis and the Holocaust  Hill and Wang 1993 p. 45).

Similarly the zionist leader David Ben-Gurion told the British High Commissioner that “regardless of our Zionist beliefs” the Jewish Agency was prepared to support the wholesale shifting of Poland’s Jewish population to Argentina or the USA. (S Teveth, Ben-Gurion and the Holocaust, Harcourt & Brace 1996 p. 126). After the Nazi-Soviet Non-Aggression Pact he also said this (29 Feb 1940): “I do not give priority to the interests of the Jewish community in Eretz-Israel over those of the Jews of Germany or any other country. The fate of the 3 million Jews in Poland worries me more than the fate of the 500,000 Jews in Eretz-Israel” (Dina Porat, Israeli Society, the Holocaust and its Survivors Valentine-Mitchell 2008 p. 16). The JA would probably have liked to have punched even bigger holes in its ‘selectivity’ policy. But, as I said, the number of visas for Palestine was fixed by the British.

DannyD mentions the 1938 Evian Conference, called by Roosevelt, to discuss Jewish emigration from Germany, and – naturally – sees it as yet another example of Zionist perfidy. He makes it sound as if the world’s leading powers were simply waiting for a Zionist spokesman to say “Yes please, take as many as you like” and that they closed their doors on European Jewry simply because “the Zionists” weren’t clamorous enough. This is kiddy history. Saul Friedlander, a brilliant holocaust historian who has studied the documents, says that “the outcome of Evian was decided before it was even convened…No doors opened at Evian, and no hope was offered to the refugees” (p. 248). Bernard Wasserstein (Britain and the Jews  Oxford University Press p. 9) says Evian “proved to be the occasion for a dismal series of speeches by the delegate of country after country, each of whom demonstrated the inability of his nation, notwithstanding the deepest sympathy and generosity towards the refugees, to absorb further numbers of immigrants”. One wry British civil servant, surveying the response of the colonial governments wrote “I don’t know what’s wrong with the colonial Empire, but its absorptive capacity seems to be nil” (p. 47). Nazi sarcasm, inevitably, had a field day after this. Evian seemed to show that nobody cared for the Jews.

What about the Dominican Republic’s offer to take 100,000 refugees, asks DannyD? Well yes, it was a serious offer. But common sense tells you it came too late in the day. The Zionists certainly didn’t sabotage it! The Dominican Settlement Association Inc was set up in 1939 but the first Jewish settlers didn’t arrive until 1940. By then, the Third Reich’s doors had closed (WD Rubinstein, The Myth of Rescue, Routledge 1997 p. 38).

The war
DannyD wants people to believe that ‘Zionism’ happily went to work with the Nazis during the war. He lets go a thin stream of piss for an argument, but even a thimble-full eventually begins to stink if you don’t mop it up.

His old friend ‘selectivity’ is raised again. And, yes, there were zionist voices which continued to talk of ‘selectivity’ after 1942 – ie as the Final Solution was under way. Not surprisingly DannyD finds one in Brenner – Yitzak Gruenbaum, the chairman of the JA’s rescue committee. But again the relevant document is bowdlerised (by Brenner) in order to fit his bizarre thesis of collaboration. The quote comes from a memorandum drawn up on 18th January 1943. It’s an amazing document because it shows the leaders of the Jewish Agency in Palestine debating their options at the moment the news is coming in from Europe of something horrendous and extraordinary. Much of the document and the minutes it generated can be found in Tom Segev’s book pp 99-103 (Again, I should point out that Segev is a highly-respected left-wing Israeli historian. The book is hugely critical of the Jewish Agency and also of Israel’s ‘offical’ view of the holocaust, but it is fair and tries to see the thing historically rather than ideologically).

In the document Apolinari Hartglass, a Polish Jew, says that the rescue committee could only achieve “a drop in the ocean”. He hoped “the will to live” would save many European Jews, but thought the zionists themselves could not rescue more than 12,000. Yehudi Bahar said that “it is clear that under the conditions of war than can be no selecting of material” and that the rescue committee was bringing “those whom we could bring (to Palestine)”. Ben-Gurion said he no longer agreed that zionists should be given preference over non-zionists. Golda Meir, the future leader of Israel, said that in the face of the holocaust there was “no Zionism other than saving Jews. We cannot talk about immigration in the same way that we spoke about it 10 years ago…Now it is a question of bringing every Jew – not because he is a farmer, but because he is a Jew and in the ghetto”. Yosef Sprinzak said “What do we need at this moment? Not a Zionist programme but something very simple: a varm Yiddish hartz (a warm Jewish heart).

Now DannyD does not quote any of these people, because they don’t fit with his theory. He doesn’t even let us know that a debate was going on. He selects the Gruenbaum quote instead – and the worst part of it – in order to show the racist cruelty of the rescue committee. If DannyD had read a bit further on (or his source had quoted a bit more of the document) he’d have seen that Gruenbaum also said this: “We must not leave a stone unturned to stop the massacre. We must demand retaliation and …join forces with the Poles who demand this”. But given the inability to save everyone he stuck to his policy of trying to rescue the “best” Jews for Palestine. To him that meant the ones who already believed in the idea of a Jewish homeland and were fit enough to contribute to its growth. Gruenbaum knew what he was saying: “They will say that I am anti-semitic. That I don’t want to save the Exile, that I don’t have a varm Yiddish hartz”. Gruenbaum’s son (a zionist by the way), was already in Auschwitz, and he knew this too.

His policy was wrong I think. The others were right. But I don’t know anyone apart from DannyD who could read the exchange without perceiving the dilemma. Let alone accusing everyone there of being a ‘Zionist collaborator’ with Nazism. It’s incredible!

I mean, what did these “Zionist collaborators” think of the Final Solution? Ben-Gurion was neither indifferent to the fate of its victims nor hopeful it would help the zionist cause, as DannyD always implies. On the contrary he thought it would put an end to it. “The extermination of European Jewry is a catastrophe for Zionism”, he said in December 1942: “There won’t be anyone left to build the country with!” (Tom Segev, The Seventh Million p. 97). Later he famously declared “The State appeared and did not find the Nation that awaited it”. Now you might call this attitude selfish. You might even say it’s defeatist. But it’s hardly indifferent. And it certainly isn’t collaborationist.

But what about all the zionists who fought for the Wehrmacht?......Oh, sorry, there weren’t any. The 40,000 Jews in Palestine (I guess we can call them Zionists?) who signed up to fight in the war all signed up for the British side. That represented a stonking one third of all male breadwinners. Funny, but DannyD doesn’t mention this inconvenient fact when he’s talking about how Zionists “looked upon the Nazis not as oppressors but as soul mates and people they could work for and with”.  Nor does he ever mention the Jewish Brigade which was raised in Palestine and which fought against the Wehrmacht in northern Italy in 1944-45. Nor is there any mention (except as a stick to beat poor old Kastner with!) of the brave young parachutists who were sent by the Jewish Agency to fight behind German lines in Yugoslavia, Rumania and Bulgaria. And no mention either mention of the zionist attempts to persuade the Allies to bomb Auschwitz.

We should look a bit more at the last one, because DannyD has ignorantly talked about the lengths to which “Zionists went to cover up operations in that camp”. Also the man at the centre of the efforts to bomb Auschwitz was Chaim Weizmann, who DannyD has already condemned as a kind of Nazi racist. On 6th July 1944 Weizmann met the British Foreign Secretary Anthony Eden to outline a plan for bombing the railway lines leading to Auschwitz-Birkenau  and “bombing the camps themselves with the object of destroying the plant used for gassing and burning”. (Wasserstein, Britain and the Jews  pp. 310-311). The demand was supported by a detailed memorandum from Shertok of the Jewish Agency on July 11th 1944. (Much of it is printed in Martin Gilbert, Auschwitz and the Allies (1981) pp. 268-70. But it was turned down by the RAF as being too impractical.

It’s fair to add, too, that the Jewish Agency in Palestine was split over the issue. Ben-Gurion opposed bombing Auschwitz because he believed that the Allies, not the Nazis, would then take the blame for killing the Jews. On the other hand Gruenbaum (DannyD’s “collaborator”) was for it. (WD Rubinstein, The Myth of Rescue Routledge 1997 pp. 179-80.     

Weizmann also tried to persuade the Roosevelt administration to bomb Auschwitz. That too was turned aside (Raul Hilberg, Perpetrators, Victims, Bystanders. The Jewish Catastrophe 1933-1945 p. 247. By this time, it might be worth adding, Weizmann’s son (a zionist) was already dead. He didn’t die in Auschwitz (like Greenbaum’s son) but in an RAF bomber, after being shot down on U-boat patrol. Thousands upon thousands of Jews – many of them zionists – died in the Allied armed forces. Zero dies in the Axis ones.

I ask you – how can you get a balanced view of zionism’s relationship to Nazism without ever mentioning these titanic efforts to confront it directly?

To sum up
There are many people who can take a share of the blame for what happened to the Jews in these years. The democracies for not opening their doors wider and for appeasing Hitler for so long. The German Communists for seeing the Socialists as a bigger enemy than the Nazis – indeed for temporarily allying themselves with the Nazis in Prussia in 1930 in order to oust a Socialist government. The Soviet Union for its disastrous and immoral Non-Aggression Pact with Hitler in 1939 – which threw millions of East European Jews straight into the moving parts of the Nazi killing-machine. The Christian churches for denying Christ and turning their backs on their neighbours. The behaviour of the victims themselves can also be criticised – too passive, too ready to believe that the worst could not happen. And you can blame the zionists, for not trying hard enough to get stricken Jews out of occupied Europe and being too fussy, until too late, about what sort of Jew was acceptable for Palestine.

But the people who are responsible for Shoah are not any of these groups. They are the Nazis. Full stop. They alone will carry the full unvarnished contempt of history.

Those, like DannyD, who see Shoah as a Nazi-Zionist collaboration are off their rockers. My fear is that DannyD’s travesty of history will one day become the accepted version on ‘the Arab street’ (if it isn’t already). They have an excuse in that they are deliberately kept in ignorance by their governments and don’t have access to the films, books and museums of the West. DannyD and his pals do have access to this stuff, but they’re not interested in anything unless it can be pressed and contorted into supporting their view that ‘the Zionists’ are on the same moral plane as the Nazis. They take that stand because they have certain views about the Middle East today. There are a number of zionists who take a sort of equivalent stand too. They have their own documents and photographs and incriminating telegrams to illustrate the Grand Mufti’s collaboration with Hitler as if this is the major feature of the holocaust. It isn’t. It’s a minor side note.

You cannot understand the holocaust if you simply want to use it as a political weapon in the current Arab-Israeli conflict.

That, I’m afraid, is why DannyD and his deluded pals will probably never get it.


Yorky, thanks for taking the time and trouble for posting the truth. Excellent post.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2008, 03:10:56 pm by stacato »

Offline jambutty

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Re: The history of the Holocaust
« Reply #79 on: February 10, 2008, 03:14:03 pm »
Went to Anne Franks house in Amersterdam where she was hidden from the Germans and nearly everyone was in tears when they left.

For people to do this to other people is simply horrific, and we should never, ever forget.

I've spoken to people that have visited some of the camps and they said that there is still just something wrong there - birds don't sing and animals don't go near.

RIP all those that lost their lives.

Arguing about petty points here and there just seems somehow wrong IMO.

Terrible tragedy for the Jewish people and a Terrible Tragedy for Mankind.


Surely you're not saying that Danny & yorky are arguing petty points?
Kill the humourless