Author Topic: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool  (Read 9514 times)

Offline BabuYagu

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Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« on: November 28, 2012, 09:38:57 PM »
For me the key thing of the game is that Spurs have a goalscorer (Defoe) and 4 other players in midfield than can get you a goal (Bale, Lennon, Dembele, Dempsey). We have just Suárez. Even Gerrard doesn't look like scoring anymore. Was that the difference or was Gareth Bale a one man wrecking ball for Spurs tonight?

What went wrong in those first 15 minutes?

We pretty much all agreed in the Swansea round table that the Downing at left back theory had been given a good field test and found to be a bad idea. Why did Rodgers persist with it? Did he play well apart from letting Lennon get goal side first goal? How big an impact was this decision on the result? 

The midfield 3. How did they fair as a unit and individually? Is Henderson RAWK's new favourite scape goat or is it justified? Where has the Steven Gerrard goal threat gone? What has happened to the Joe Allen of September?

Corners - we only look like scoring them when Gerrard isn´t hitting them it seems. He is also one of the few you would expect to put it in the net too. Should he be told to leave them to someone, anyone, else?

Assaidi, Shelvey - did either show anything to suggest they will start the game against Southampton?
« Last Edit: November 28, 2012, 09:49:29 PM by BabuYagu »
Gonna stay behind at work and wait to see what happens.

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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2012, 10:18:37 PM »
I didn't like the look of the team-sheet. It was sad to see Downing still at left back and Henderson preferred to Sahin, Suso and Shelvey (all better players, two of them with a future at Anfield). So I think Brendan got that wrong.

Their first was a wonder goal and Glen Johnson never recovered all night. Bale is probably the best player in the Premier League and his run down the right was magnificent (echoes of Walcott in the Champions League for me). Yes, a better left back than Downing might have choked off the space for Lennon but once Bale had ripped up the right and gone beyond Skrtel it was always going to be a difficult ball to defend. We're talking about a world class player here, who is calm as well as dynamic (he's a diver too of course).

The second goal was just dreadful. Henderson pulled out of his shot because he didn't fancy getting hurt (I've seen this before with him) and then gave the referee an excuse to penalise him for a raised arm on Dempsey's shoulder. Sure, the American went down like a sack of spuds but it was naive of Hendo. Then, to finish a dreadful 60 seconds he deflected the free kick into the top corner. By the way Sterling at this point, I think I'm right in saying, had touched the ball ONCE (that's in the first 17 minutes).

I thought after their second that we were in for another massacre like last year. But our response was brilliant. We played a high line, we were quick on the ball and we got men in and around the box. Even old man Gerrard made a foray into the penalty area. Was it a pen? I don't think it was, but had it been the other way round I have an awful feeling Dowd would have given it to the home team.

Some of our energy dipped in the second half but Tottenham's dipped even more and it meant we spent most of the time on the ball and in their half. In the end we  deserved a draw, and possibly a win. A team that had variation and cunning with corners would surely have made more of the 100 corners we had in the second half. We shouldn't be too disheartened though because Spurs are a good team and we matched them.

Problems though. Henderson looks to me like he hasn't got any better since he arrived. If only we could take his pace and stamina and give them to Shelvey - a wiser, more courageous and more skilful player, but - sadly - also a slow one.

Suarez and Sterling have no chemistry. That single touch of Sterling's in the first 17 minutes saw him in a bit of space in the inside right position heading to Tottenham's box. Not only did Suarez make a silly run into the empty space ahead of Raheem (forcing the lad to slow down), but Raheem compounded the problem by needlessly passing to him. End of move. In fact Sterling, all told, needs to get a little greedier. Perhaps Suarez's constant berating in the first few games has got through to Sterling in a bad way. But they make some crap decisions between them. It was a poor night for Sterling in the end. He must have given away 6 or 7 fouls too, which weren't all to do with Dowd's incompetence. Given that Johnson also had a stinker - freaked out by Bale even when Bale didn't have the ball - it meant our right side was not as effective as we would have liked. Our left, meanwhile, is at best makeshift.

Allen did very well. Pepe too. And Danny Agger was fantastic - what a fucking great player. Enrique showed guts and spirit and occasionally a wee bit of technique. Gerrard is dying. So sad. 
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Offline Vulmea

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2012, 12:38:38 AM »
its another one of them isn't it?

we shipped two goals early - so do you say we bottled it and only came into it when Spurs backed off or our nerves went or do you credit the brilliant fight in the team?

I thought we had chances even before their second. All in all I think I'm more relieved we didn't roll over and die than I am disapointed about the poor start.

Blaming Henderson for a Dempsey dive isn't really on is it? It wasn't naive because it wasn't anything, he did nothing that merited a foul. Having said that we've given away far too many actual freekicks around our box and one did eventually have to go in. We do look too wreckless around our box and I'm surprised we haven't suffered before now.

For all Spurs attacking talent and pace they are pretty crap at the back. Once again we had opportunities and once again we didn'y score. Is Og is our 2nd highest scorer? Sterling is looking more and more his age which is fair enough I think.

Downing still is not a left back. I dont blame him for the goal he simply shouldn't be playing there. Are Robinson, Smith, Flanagan and Wisdom all crocked or is it something else?

I rememeber being incredibly frustrated by Rafa sticking with Morientes game after game but I accepted the spaniard had brought the lad in and I thought he had the right to believe in the player. I'm not sure the same applies for Downing and Rodgers. I'd accept players deserve time to find their feet but I'm struggling with Downing. One of a number of issues I can't get my head round with Rodgers. Could it be financial, an asset that has to be justified? A shop window? Dont know but can't see the football logic.

Henderson is a good young central midfield player who is very low on confidence. One we tried to get rid of in the summer and you could understand if he'd thrown his toys out of the pram. He hasn't that earns him a ton of brownie  points for me. I'm glad he's finally getting a chance to play in his natural position I think nerves and cobwebs are justified especially as  Sahin and Suso have had opportunities and we've looked wide open at times with them. For once Allen did not look like he was playing on his own in midfield

Gerrard was ok, nothing more and certainly nothing less. He isn't the player he was but he is still a very very good player. His greatest asset is going forward and we have so few options its difficult for him to use that ability especially now that dynamism isn't there.

Suarez looks to be having one of those spells similar to last year when he just does not get the breaks. Time will tell whether thats par for the course I guess.

Enrique continues to do well at left mid. Agger to impress.

It was a good game to watch I thought, some good play, plenty of action. We showed spirit when we could have felt sorry for ourselves.

The lad needs to produce another rabbit or two from his hat though - left back and upfront need to be improved and then maybe we can start expecting some fluency in the side - at the moment the side feels like what it is, a patched up side. Thats another thing I dont get though we have more patches than we had holes.............
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2012, 09:57:33 AM »
My guess on this one is that we'll get a better write-up from neutrals (and even Tottenham fans) than our own. It was the best performance we've put in at White Hart lane since we last lost there 1-2 in our 'nearly' season.
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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 02:51:28 PM »
Bermp. Please be considered and analytical.

Offline Kochevnik

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2012, 03:07:54 PM »
It's really a broken record situation isn't it?

We need to take our chances.  Not every single one - that would be expecting too much, surely.  But we can't even seem to score the absolute sitters.  Add to that the referee not giving us either of the very strong penalty shouts and we were always going to face an uphill climb.

The problem is that it's getting to the point where we have to stop bemoaning our luck and our finishing in every single game and have to start wondering who's responsible for not doing something about it.  Brendan has already started lowering our expectations for the January window, so it looks to me like more of the same going forward.  Which is a shame, really, because our team has something about it, and if we could have players in the box more often, players who wouldn't shit themselves at the sight of an open goal, we could really be a very good side.

As for your question about Henderson, I have to say I've gone right off him as a player.  He tries very hard, and he seems a nice lad, so it's difficult to be too harsh with him but he really is spineless and we absolutely cannot afford to be carrying a player in our midfield.  That was hardly the only good chance that he's missed this season, and when you have a team crying out for goals you need all 5 of your attacking players to be capable of putting those in the net.
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Offline Caffeine

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2012, 03:09:01 PM »
I find it depressing that after a year, two years, maybe more, we are still asking ourselves after every match why Gerrard continues to take corners when they are so awful. Why does no-one address this problem when we can all see it?

Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2012, 03:29:28 PM »
People are calling the first 15/20 minutes woeful. They weren't. They were to be expected. Take the two goals out, and we'd done alright. No. I'm not making one of those if me Aunty had bollocks we'd be top of the league posts. It's a fact. Barring the two goals, we'd done alright. And if I wanted to make one of them if me Uncle had tits posts, I'd go on about how unlucky and cheated we were to conceed the two of them.

But me point is, we were at White Hart Lane, Spurs were always going to boss sections of the game. That's a given. So, Brendan has to work on not conceeding when we're under the cosh. If we get that right, with Suarez and Sterling, we can even turn soaking up pressure into a springboard.

But sticking to the game last night, AVB's Tottenham play a similar game to our own. They were at home. And, in all honesty, they probably have the better players in more positions, but, for long periods of the game, we outplayed them. And it was a definite improvement on the Swansea game, another team that play a similar game to ourselves, but without the talents of Tottenham. So, I see it as an improvement.

Sadly, this is how our season has gone since it kicked off, one step forwards, two steps back. But we have to accept it as a transition period. We'll get more settled as things go along. But why Downing was thrown in at left back again, was beyond me. But obviously, it won't go on forever. So, it's not worth dwelling on.

As for Allen, it's natural for a young player at a new club to tail off after such a good start. It's called teething troubles. I just hope the supporters remember Lucas, and don't start giving the kid loads. He'll come good. Same applies to Henderson, but unfortunately scapegoating seems to have become part of things now. But who knows, he may well become a really good central midfielder if given the time to develop without being hounded.

But in a nutshell... a good performance. We need to cut out some needless errors, but we could have still won this by a couple of clear goals.

As for Gerrard and corners, I've been screaming for him to let someone else take them and get on the edge of the box, his whole career. So, I don't think that's going to happen now, even though it does make perfect sense.
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2012, 03:31:15 PM »
Ha, I thought that Boa's thing was an auto correct. I wish I had control of that button. There'd be some crackers.
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Offline rossipersempre

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2012, 03:36:36 PM »
Ha, I thought that Boa's thing was an auto correct. I wish I had control of that button. There'd be some crackers.
What auto-correct? AVB comes out ok for me. I think they're just censoring you Fats ;)
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2012, 03:55:17 PM »
Ha, I thought that Boa's thing was an auto correct. I wish I had control of that button. There'd be some crackers.

I thought that was a touch of fucking class on your part Fats.

PS - an admirable post.
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2012, 04:02:43 PM »
Ha ha. Typed this [and fortunately for the remnants of my hair copied most of it] in the post match thread but lost the internet connection. Now I find the thread shut. Cheers roy lad!

 ;D

Anyroad, whilst it was generated by sheer enjoment at watching last night's performance and was actually aimed at some of the stupefying negativity in that thread plus the inability of some to budge an inch once they've got a bee in their bonnet I'm buggered if I'm going to let it disappear into the ether.


It seems to me that so many of the posts in the post match thread relate solely to the ongoing failure to pick up the desired points. Most seek to bracket last night’s failure as further testimony to an ongoing malaise at the club as well as serving as further justification for their dissatisfaction at what is taking place. A dissatisfaction  fed by a very real fear that January may not see anything approaching the class player infusion we so desperately need. 

In many ways it is understandable. And especially if that latter sentence proves to be the case. Not sure how any of us would deal with that eventuality. If I’m honest the erring towards despondency does tend to mirror my own feelings after the sterility we had to endure down at Swansea last Sunday. Hearing Brendan Rodgers heaping praise on that performance and then reading so much positivity in the dedicated Round Table thread on here had me thinking of Danny Kaye singing The Emperor’s new Clothes. Then again, I guess if the manager and diehard Reds can’t remain positive after such mediocrity then who can? 

Where such negativity is not understandable and where I differ seismically from the glut of it that permeates this post match thread is over the simple matter of giving praise where it’s due.

Last night at White Hart lane Liverpool were magnificent. No ifs or buts. We were brave, adventurous and magnificent just as Rodgers said in his post match interview. Just as many of us have already said in this thread. We were also hugely fuckin unlucky, of course, but in terms of overall team performance there was little that could be faulted save for the blindingly obvious breaks which determine the points on offer.

And the quality of that performance was not simply for 70 minutes no matter how convenient that seems to fit into some of the post match equations and statistics. Sure we went two down by the 20th minute but even during that opening spell when Spurs were at their best we prettywell matched them in all areas save for the lucky/unlucky breaks in front of goal which they got courtesy firstly of our shocking defending and secondly even more shocking refereeing.

For much of the rest of the game we had such a stranglehold on the game - against a team we must remember who have pretensions way up the table that have been backed by a generous board of directors – that Spurs looked like a team with only one idea which was to hit us on the break at speed. Very much like the ‘sit back and pounce’ Forest of the late 70’s [which as a sidenote possibly explains why Trevor Francis was so fuckin biased towards them in his assistant commentators role on the 60 minute Sky transmission. Or maybe he’s now simply a thick twat like so many of the others.]

But let nobody make any mistake. Last night’s performance was in no way part of any ongoing malaise. And anybody who has watched it and still maintains a “same old/same old” stance either hasn’t got a fucking clue what it is they’re watching or else is merely being an apologist for their own stance against the current regime.

Following a hesitant start, the football last night was for much of the time skilful, fast, brave, enterprising, penetrative, ambitious and at times terrific to behold. Victory was denied by a mixture of the frustrating profligacy in front of goal which continues to haunt us following the summer debacle, by abysmal refereeing and, let us not forget, by some absolutely sensational top class last ditch defending by a Spurs rearguard hellbent on retaining the three points they felt were in the bag but by late in the game almost a spent force.

So for fucks sake can we use post match threads like these to reflect on what actually took place. Not to use the result as a means to drive home a standpoint that may or may not be true whilst ignoring so much evidence which might actually contain a pointer which flies in the face of that standpoint.

At the moment there isn’t a solitary soul inside or outside Anfield who knows one way or the other whether this current regime will or won’t work. Many believe it will, of course. Many don’t. But none of us know. So when we’re presented with a little ray of sunshine as we were by last night’s performance [as distinct from the accompanying result] can we please see it for what it was as distinct from dismissing it and seeing it as further evidence of the malaise some seem to crave it to be. Doing so serves only to infuriate and certainly as regards any such critically hostile views held merely undermines the credibility of those views.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2012, 04:05:41 PM »
To me, the mistakes of the first couple of minutes were first and foremost because of a lack of concentration, maybe because of the short break in between the games.

The players looked tired mentally and it was a positive surprise to see how they recovered then. Maybe it was because Rodgers tried to play Gerrard further up the pitch with Henderson behind him together with Allen, or maybe just because of the players still sometimes "forget" to remember what to do first in build up play despite being under pressure...at the beginning we just were not able to play it simple from the back. This boring game a lot on here don´t want to see. But it´s important for a controlled and organised way of moving up the pitch without risking being vulnerable when loosing possession.

Learning position play is not easy and this game probably a big lesson for the players to trust in the simple pass from the back. There were a couple of occassions in the second half when Gerrard played the long ball to our wingers (most of them great stuff), two of them failed and you could see how much of a risk these passes for us in fact are. In a situation like this, it´s important for all the players to try to win back the second ball as quick as possible and especially the first pass AFTER winning back the ball is the most important one then. It has to be simple in order to get back the organisation.

I enjoyed our game after these first 20 minutes although it´s sometimes frustrating to watch the lack of talent we have still around. Enrique does a great job but how do we expect him to be a finisher suddenly? We need more quality upfront, the same line over and over again as it was true for Kenny last season and still is for Rodgers.

Game on FSG, make it happen in January.
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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2012, 04:09:48 PM »
As for Allen, it's natural for a young player at a new club to tail off after such a good start. It's called teething troubles.
You could argue that that is a good summation of the game as a whole and our season to date. Excellent post FS, hard to argue with any of the points made. Despite dominating, I felt the chemistry in our midfield looked off, the balance felt wrong, they all looked ragged. Much of this might be put down to Spurs quicker players. Allen was left with way too much to do, because Garrard can't provide the necessary defensive cover. Felt for Joe as he continually kept finding himself on the wrong-side of Spurs' attacking players. The main thing I picked up was that our midfield trio whoever they maybe, will need to perform much better if Rodgers 4-3-3 is to work.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 04:14:41 PM by Twelfth Man »
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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #14 on: November 29, 2012, 04:13:37 PM »
People are calling the first 15/20 minutes woeful. They weren't. They were to be expected. Take the two goals out, and we'd done alright. No. I'm not making one of those if me Aunty had bollocks we'd be top of the league posts. It's a fact. Barring the two goals, we'd done alright. And if I wanted to make one of them if me Uncle had tits posts, I'd go on about how unlucky and cheated we were to conceed the two of them.


Here here.. I've just re-watched the first 20 minutes again and we definitely edged it. The remaining 70 minutes of the game we dominated and played some great stuff. In fact we had two great chances to score between their 2 goals [Suarez and Henderson]. The overrated Johnson [who had a very sloppy game last night] was instrumental in their first goal which arose out of his very poor pass  that went straight to Dawson. Dawson passed it to Bale who easily shrugged off 2 non-challenges from Gerrard and Johnson and then was allowed to charge into the area unchallenged to cross the ball which Lennon tapped in. Shocking lack of awareness from Downing to allow Lennon to come in on his blind side. A very poor goal to concede.

Groundhog Day yet again with regards to our finishing. We clearly outplayed Spurs on their own turf and should have won never mind anything else. If we play like this for the rest of the season the goals and wins will come. We won't always have the dreadful Dowd, Webb, Atkinson, Walton or Clattenberg refereeing our matches. Those refs should be shown the red card by the 4th official for their incompetence and bias. The standard of refereeing in this country is truly awful.

Brendan, your after match comments were spot on.


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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #15 on: November 29, 2012, 04:15:17 PM »
I want to add one thing regarding the game last night. Jermaine Defoe continues to be one of the most underrated strikers, not only in England but in Europe.

Just a goalscorer my arse.
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Offline Believe

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2012, 04:16:13 PM »

[snip]

Last night at White Hart lane Liverpool were magnificent. No ifs or buts. We were brave, adventurous and magnificent just as Rodgers said in his post match interview.

Great post - glad you rescued it from the ether! The above echoes my sentiments, I was proud to be a Liverpool fan watching the performance last night and listening to the travelling Kop belting out song after song.

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2012, 04:17:09 PM »
AVB working here too - looks like you're being targeted Fats..
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2012, 04:17:58 PM »
I thought that was a touch of fucking class on your part Fats.

PS - an admirable post.
Mate, could you imagine some of the beauts if I had control of that button. But I wouldn't even know how to speel ABV never mind AVB
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2012, 04:18:33 PM »
AVB working here too - looks like you're being targeted Fats..
That's because it's AVB, you.... add correctbion here.
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2012, 04:24:54 PM »


PS - an admirable post.
PS... part of it was wrong though, really. Swansea aren't quite the plucky little side Brendan left. Laudrup's made some really good buys, added lots more fire power and has them scoring goals as well as knocking it around nicely. And, I suppose we could draw all sorts of conclusions from that, but concentrating on the good... it makes our clean sheet against them look a bit better than it felt at the weekend. But I'll shut up now and leave this on track.
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2012, 04:29:27 PM »
Spurs have Defoe who is maybe more goal poacher than Suarez but there is no doubt who I prefer in a team. Lennon and Dembele have probably scored 20 league goals btw them the past 4 or 5 years so cant see them being the difference. Bale was on fire last night as he reminds me of Ronaldo with his pace but I still be surprised if he bags 15 league goals by season’s end. Still impressive enough when you have 2 lads that will score close to 30 league goals as we are hoping for 50 at this stage for the whole team. Still if we came out on fire last night expecting Spurs to come at us we could have doubled / tripled up on Bale with Johnson n Sterling when required while Allen or one of the central defenders get across even. We have been very slow off the blocks lately and getting punished n rightly so,

Downing is there surely for his attacking ability as he n Enrique combined look tatsy on paper or 2010 form. He is just being so timid getting forward that I don’t see how this experiment will continue and we got rightly fecked last night for his inexperience. Brendan needs to hold his hand up and say he made a mistake ...time to move on.

Our CM is way off the finished article right now as they get a fair share of the ball but their use of it esp once past half ways is laboured at best. The lack of final ball options either down the channels or in the box is stifling any good we are getting from CM as how can they create when we do not open the space in front of them to take advantage of. 

We are possibly seeing what happens when you run through managers as Brendan is picking up various bricks after two builders have come in over 2 years, dismantled to the foundation and tried to revise the house plans in their own eyes. Every other manager had had a good core to work with from previous managers stints here as 5 plus years of work has meant a more solid foundation for the next guy to start with. Brendan has a tough job on his hand here as too many cooks in the kitchen the past 3 years has left a right old hotchpotch.
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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2012, 04:29:30 PM »
The defining point of the game came when the score was 1-0 and Henderson had an open goal to aim for but shot wide – Spurs went straight up the other end, win a contentious free-kick and the score is then 2-0. At this level of football you simply cannot afford to miss those types of chances. The first goal can certainly be attributed to Downing but we cannot ignore the missed tackles by Gerrard (twice) and Johnson on Bale.

At 2-0 I felt we done really well to drag ourselves back into it. I’m really not buying any of this Spurs were sitting back nonsense; we pushed them back and took control of the game. Unfortunately, we were left to rue missed chances and referee’s decisions once again.

Now I don’t think the Gerrard ‘foul’ was a penalty – he went down as soon as he felt contact in the box but, if the same referee in the same game gave Dempsey a free kick for the foul by Henderson that resulted in their second goal, then he has to give us a penalty for the Gerrard foul. That is what is so annoying is the inconsistency of refereeing decisions. A few people have said in the post match thread that good teams don’t worry about bad refereeing decisions, they will just go and score 2 or 3 goals and it will be forgotten. The fact is we are really struggling to score goals at the moment and these decisions are being talked about because we don’t have the quality up front to compensate for poor decisions.

I had the feeling we were always in the game even at 2-0 and sensed that if we could score one goal with enough minutes left on the clock we could go on and get an equaliser. At 2-1 Suarez got the kind of opportunity you really expect him to do better with from Agger’s cross but he volleyed widely into the stands. Once again you really should be hitting the target with that type of chance.

Other than that:

Spurs look a couple of steps ahead of us at the moment.

Enrique continues to impress at LW and got himself into a few dangerous positions and had a few shots.

Why did we wear our away kit?

The press didn’t condemn Bale for his dive.
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Offline fefs

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2012, 04:31:22 PM »
My guess on this one is that we'll get a better write-up from neutrals (and even Tottenham fans) than our own. It was the best performance we've put in at White Hart lane since we last lost there 1-2 in our 'nearly' season.

The Spurs fans have been been praising our performance much more than our own supporters have.

Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2012, 04:31:52 PM »
Great post - glad you rescued it from the ether! The above echoes my sentiments, I was proud to be a Liverpool fan watching the performance last night and listening to the travelling Kop belting out song after song.

Yeah. Me too. Should have put that in as I think pride was the overwhelming emotion. It felt like I was watching a proper Liverpool team as the match wore on. Just hope and pray the belief flows from the performance and not doubt from the rsult. I think that's why the post match thread pissed me off so much. I just cannot associate such snide negativity with the Liverpudlian fanbase i've grown up with. yeah we can be pissed off as i was during the swansea game. I take Fat's point about last night with swansea against West brom. but really, they could have been taken comfortably with a quarter of the the drive and determination we ended up showing last night.

Offline Kop10

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2012, 04:32:09 PM »
I can't take any consolation from this because:

1) We played well but not with our new philosophy. So where's the consolation exactly? How many times did we play it direct looking for Suarez, or Jose Enrique to outmuscle Walker out wide? Sterling got no change from their LB.

2) Are we penetrating with considered guile or is it all too random with the front three?

3) Enrique at LW is a short-term measure, surely? If we're losing playing short-term measures, what's the point?

4) Sterling, our 17year old winger, started again and isn't looking as fresh as he did. Playing him so often is a short-term measure only we're still not winning enough games, so no benefit there.

5)  Downing at LB, surely the shortest of short term measures....it didn't work.


BTW, West Ham battered Man Utd 2nd half at O/T yesterday. Man Utd were literally hanging on...west ham looked like Real Madrid.

"Whether Manchester United played to their potential or not doesn't matter does it? They still won. They have a nasty habit of doing that." - Sam Allardyce after the match.


Yesterday's game will have no bearing on what happens against Southampton. Different set of circumstances. We might play well or we might not. There's no played-well juice that runneth over.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 04:37:30 PM by Kop10 »
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Offline trenchtownrasta

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2012, 04:42:11 PM »
I missed most of the match due to it kicking off at 4am my time and only managed to watch the last 30mins uninterrupted, so I just caught up on some of the goals and key incidents through Viet-livs link in the video thread.

In the 42mins of football I managed to see, we had a shot at open goal, a shot cleared off the line, a penalty shout turned down, a sensational set-up from Agger for a miscued volley from Suarez, Gallas nipping the ball off Suarez's toe, Shelvey and Enrique also missed out as a consequence of poor timing and general fudging of the ball respectively. Unfortunately no ball was going into the onion bag today without Gareth Bale's assistance.

A few positives can be taken away from that game; as a team we are consistently creating undeniable goal scoring chances, none of this statistical chance creation bollox; the chances created last night scream that this team is on the verge of mauling someone, Southampton best pack tent pegs to hold down the net at their end on Saturday. Enrique has great movement, possibly the best of our wide players, and contrary to what I believed previously he has an ability to bumble his way out of tight situations and cause a bit of a storm on the LHS, I predict up to ten goals will be attributed to Hurricane Enrique this season, as a direct result or a byproduct of the madness he causes.




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Offline leivapool

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #27 on: November 29, 2012, 05:01:21 PM »
What are the attributes for a full back, strength, bravery, positional discipline and nous, good tackling; any of these apply to Stewart Downing?  Any of them?  the answers no, and I think his inclusion at LB is a massive mistake.  not only cos Downing just can't play there against premier league quality opposition, but  Downing is currently so out of form he shouldn't get into the team anywhere really should he? 

With Bale on the left, Johnson had to play RB as Wisdom and Sterling would have been eaten alive.  On the other side, Enrique is both our best LB and our best LM/W on form.  It was always going to end badly wasn't it?  Having said that, I'm not sure what BR could have done any different.  If he'd have played Enrique at LB our attack would have been further weakeened, and who even could he have picked?  Assaidi failed to do much of anything when he came on and Downing is, well, Downing.

No-one has said it, but Kelly being injured has limited our FB and wide midfield options significantly.  Not having Lucas to cover the kids hasn't helped.  If BR doesn't think that Robinson and Flanno are going to be ready very soon, then surely we need another FB to cover?

I found myself sadly yearning for Maxi Rodriquez during the game.  His ability to pop up and score goals was invaluable.  Remember the great volley away at Fulham I think?  Enrique had a similar chance yesterday and did some sort of strange attempt to head it backwards rather than volley it goalwards.  I don't blame Enrique, I think he's busting a gut and working really hard to support the attack and cover the FB behind him, he just isn't a well practised goal scorer.  Could we get Maxi back  please?  :(
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline John C

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #28 on: November 29, 2012, 05:13:11 PM »
We deserved at least a point, potentially 3, but come on, if anyone didn’t know on Monday it would end like this must they have been hoping for the Wizard of Oz and a happy ending. Although in this instance Downing, the Cowardly Lion didn't find his heart. Stevie G looks like the Tin Man, Henderson is Toto just running round doing nothing and Enrique is the Scarecrow - got no brains.
Even our Wizard Luis let us down when he had a clear, gaping open goal to hit.
Of course Dowd was the Wicked Witch not giving SG the pen, if Sterling’s touch on Defoe was a foul then that was easily a pen.
For the first 20 minutes we were clueless, I actually though it reminded me of spells under Souness when every manager could just say “its only Liverpool”, but then whether through determination or Spurs complacency we found some tenacity, we became Liverpool – except the very modern Liverpool that rarely finds the net. The amount of effort we put in to getting 12 yards from their goal then squandering ball after ball was insane, and colour turned back to black & white.
Others may do, but I can’t complain about the starting 11, except for Downing, I wanted to see Henderson get a run, just to see if we could get him on the right path – but he just doesn’t grasp his opportunities
Dorothy Rodgers has relied on his munchkins, Sterling, Suso et al during his journey but its time he put some faith in one of the most precocious – Jack Robinson. Surely he could enhance our LB position.
He has made both unusual and positive subs this season, both were too late against Spurs, we needed Assiadi’s ruby slippers on a lot earlier.
So our whirlwind last transfer day continues to make the club look like I had a yellow streak.

OK, I got what I wanted in terms of the CM 2 and it hasn't worked, we now may need the skill of Suso and the something from Sahin to put some hot air in our balloon.

Southampton on Saturday, I wish I could say ‘there’s no place like home’.

Offline John C

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2012, 05:30:04 PM »
It was a poor night for Sterling in the end.
I said that to the bloke next to me in the pub and he replied we can't blame a 17 year old for this mess. Of course we can't, but his continued presence and absence of contribution affected us. He was an option to be subbed not exercised by BR. Assiadi could have been brought on much earlier as perhaps his replacement.

Again similar to the Chelsea game, had we scored that second there may only have been one winner - but can we say that's the story of our season or shouldn't we be looking for the if's too often.

I agree with you about Henderson, although he protested his innocence and the crowd in the pub displayed their disdain at the decision, he gave the ref no choice once he'd reached out for the shoulder of the obnoxious Dempsey.

Offline didi shamone

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #30 on: November 29, 2012, 08:37:35 PM »
For me the key thing of the game is that Spurs have a goalscorer (Defoe) and 4 other players in midfield than can get you a goal (Bale, Lennon, Dembele, Dempsey). We have just Suárez. Even Gerrard doesn't look like scoring anymore. Was that the difference or was Gareth Bale a one man wrecking ball for Spurs tonight?

What went wrong in those first 15 minutes?

We pretty much all agreed in the Swansea round table that the Downing at left back theory had been given a good field test and found to be a bad idea. Why did Rodgers persist with it? Did he play well apart from letting Lennon get goal side first goal? How big an impact was this decision on the result? 

The midfield 3. How did they fair as a unit and individually? Is Henderson RAWK's new favourite scape goat or is it justified? Where has the Steven Gerrard goal threat gone? What has happened to the Joe Allen of September?

Corners - we only look like scoring them when Gerrard isn´t hitting them it seems. He is also one of the few you would expect to put it in the net too. Should he be told to leave them to someone, anyone, else?

Assaidi, Shelvey - did either show anything to suggest they will start the game against Southampton?


Yes you're right the main difference is their goal threat. They've got goal four goal threats and we've got one.  That's painfully obvious and the reason I stated in last weeks Round table that nothing will change this side of January for us.

First 15 mins we started slowly which happens. But we suffered because Bale walked through our midfield [which is a regular occurrence these days] coupled with the crazy decision to play Downing at left back. Dear God why?. It had a monumental effect on the course of the game. Second goal was down to a dive[ it happens] and a deflection [again it happens].

The midfield three didn't play very well as a unit and individually were ordinary. Henderson wasn't great by any means but besides a bad miss, a free that shouldn't have been given and a deflection, was no worse than anyone else. Gerrard always looks poor until we go behind and then, when we're forced to attack shows flashes of the player we once knew. Allen is a tidy player in general but maybe we jumped the gun with the praise and he's just ok. Early days of course. the return of our best midfielder will be telling.

Subs made little difference to be fair. Shelvey is the only one who has claims for a starting berth.

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #31 on: November 29, 2012, 08:42:20 PM »
Great post Timbo.

Offline tamadic

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2012, 09:09:22 PM »
I find it depressing that after a year, two years, maybe more, we are still asking ourselves after every match why Gerrard continues to take corners when they are so awful. Why does no-one address this problem when we can all see it?

Yes. I didn't have chance to watch the game. However, there were 12 corners, right?
Corner is the bread and butter to football. If we can't capitalize it, opponents just don't care and keep conceding them and just park the bus...
The issue has been there for so long. I remember Skrtel scored a few last season though

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2012, 09:45:28 PM »
Was disappointed  - more than usual - with the post-match thread, because as has been flagged here again and again, BR wasn't guilty of any hyperbole in his after-match interview, we were very good and very unlucky. So many posters seem unable to grasp the straighforward dichotomy of result and performance, and in the process display all the analytical nous of Alan Shearer. (and that is not to deny that we are hopelessly unbalanced at present - as a squad - and don't have nearly enough goal threat)

Last night's game was a watershed for me; despite the loss, I was at the end so proud and oddly, optimistic.

But that optimism is tempered by queries and niggles. For example, why when so many youngsters have been given their head, has Robinson been overlooked in favour of Downing? (unless there is desperation to get him a new home in January and this has resulted in a 'warped' selection principle, in which case, why at full back?). Another example: at what point does a youngster need removing from the front line? I would argue that Sterling needs a rest (I know others strongly disagree) but that Suso needs more game time. Then there's Suarez's frustration - at times so palpable that he loses his ability to make the right decisions. I fear that if January is as much a non-event as the club are already flagging it will be, he will seek pastures greener, and who could blame him?

So it's not rocket science, nor original, to state that January represents a watershed for the club's fortunes. We have a very good foundation for consolidating what has been achieved in a short time. But tyros cannot remain forever at the front line so early in their development, however good they are. The need for experienced reinforcements is so glaring as to be moot. I wish I was as confident about FSG as I felt last night about the performance.
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Offline Filler.

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2012, 09:56:13 PM »
I think yesterday was the first time I was really annoyed at the team selection. I've occasionally been a bit quizzical over a few starting line-ups - sometimes they go on to prove me right, and sometimes they prove me wrong - normal fair then, but couldn't work out what we were doing with Downing at left back again, after he'd looked a bit lost on previous occasions.

I was also a bit aggrieved to see Henderson further forward of Gerrard again.

Downing isn't a left back, but I've always had a bit of time for the idea, because the hope is that he'll also prove to be effective in attack or on a counter, but he isn't. So he's not great at full back, but isn't great on the pounce either. So why are we going with this again up against a team like Spurs? On Saturday, against Southampton, you could maybe conjure up a reason for it, but for Spurs? I thought that was a bit weird, and I had to take a walk outside after the first goal. I thought we scored on the way back in, as there were replays and goal match action down their end but no... Henderson had spurned the chance. It was probably a harder chance than has maybe been suggested, but does Gerrard show a bit more impetus to get there to poke it in I wonder? I think he would have done.

And he's not going to drop Gerrard is he? Maybe a stronger manager would... maybe a manager who wants control would too.

The realists (me included), would have probably nodded at us getting a draw at Swansea and not managing a point at Spurs. I think alot could have predicted, or at least plumped for those two results happening, but of course the ever hopeful (me included), wouldn't have taken either, and would hope to nick a win and maybe nick a point at White Hart Lane. We needed 6 points tho - which would only have taken us up to 8th I think.

Not all doom and gloom tho. We were bright for periods, but the task was made far harder than it should have done after Lennon 'ghosted' in beyond Downing. We're not finding goals easy to come by, so the importance to remain strong in defence is paramount. We for me, negated that.


I'm not like many in berating the ref, or a dive, or a penalty shout turned down as yet another example of how unlucky we are. Yes, we have moments where we're unlucky - sometimes game changing moments, but teams above us,... in the top 6, get poor decisions and bad luck but they construct other chances and put more of them away than we do. This was probably always going to be the case of course seeing as we went into the season with one striker and a few kids. Not easy.

Reasons to be cheerful, part 412.

Offline n00bert

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2012, 10:06:44 PM »
In the opening 15 minutes we were slightly overrun. Bale had started well and we were a bit rash trying to win the ball back high up the field. He merrily skipped past a couple of players and IMO he was shooting and not crossing the ball for Lennon. Stewie was asleep at the back stick and shoulda cleared it but didn't. It was a fair-ish reflection on how the match had been up to that point.

But since conceding we did well, without really creating too much. We were definitely fighting hard from the off but when Dempsey went down barely being touched you sorta knew that the gods weren't with us today. The fact that the ball ended up in the back of the net just underlined that point.  Nothing you can do as a player or manager can legislate for terrible refereeing decisions.

After that it was all us. Spurs didn't have anything other than long shots and that one chance after Suarez played in Defoe.

I thought that after we conceded the first, Downing actually had a good game overall. Nothing much got by him and he did get into the final third a bit. He could still have done better though and on a number of occassions he completely slowed down a good counter attack opportunity. The lad lacks confidence and it doesn't look like it's coming back anytime soon.

Truth be told though, after Saturday I was hoping that we'd play Wisdom at RB and switch Johnson to LB. I guess there may have been a concern that he couldn't keep up with Bale so in the grand scheme I think that Rodgers was forced to play Downing at LB. He clearly doesn't think that Robinson is ready for 90 minutes of intense football, but where's Flanno? Still injured? He may have done OK against Bale if he was available.

On the midfield three - I think that Joe Allen did quite well today. He looks a bit Lucas-like before he was the current Lucas, i.e. making some silly tackles. IMO all stemmed from the Everton game where he got so phsyically and psychologically bullied by Fellaini that he is still trying to impose himself. The Joe Allen of earlier in the season was careful and considered, he has just become a bit rash now.

Henderson was OK I think - and I've never been a big fan of the lad. He kept the ball moving and made himself available for a pass alot of the time. Can see him fitting into the Rodgers system a bit more now that he's playing in a CM role. Ok he didn't create a chance or score, but he did keep the tempo of our play up. IMO not at fault for the second goal because he didn't even touch Dempsey, and I could tell by his reaction that he was properly pissed off with Dempsey. Hendo seems like a pretty level headed lad so I knew right away that Dempsey had dived from Hendo's reaction.

Stevie Gerrard - what can I say. Did he do it all? Well he did win a tackle in the first half so I'm glad that has happened. Was he a goal threat? Arguably yes, he had a clear penalty not given and his header from the knockback was what led to our goal. A improved performance from him in many respects, kept it more simple today and like Hendo did keep the ball moving to keep the rhythm going. Still though, this is not the Gerrard of old and sometimes I wonder if he's proud to wear that shirt anymore. He just seems to lack a bit of heart. I just imagine if he had Joe Allen or Lucas' fighting spirit, how much of a difference that would make to him at this stage of his career.

On a whole, I think the midfield three did quite well, it was down the right flank is where we were bitten today. Vertoghen nearly completely dominated Sterling, who to me looks a little bit tired. It's a lot of expectation to heap on a young boy's shoulders and he did have a few glimpses. Needs to work on his final pass though.

Corners - for a team who has won so many this season it is getting concerning that we are not converting a few more. Or at least looking like a constant threat from them. We seem to be defending them a bit better which is nice to see.

Shelvey - I thought he did well when he came on. Contributed to the pressing game and had one good shot that the keeper had covered. I would have preferred if he had come on for Gerrard to be honest just to see if his and Hendo's energy could force a few more errors or win the ball higher up the field. Pipe dream though I think, we'd never take Stevie off.

Assaidi looks like he's lacking some game time. I wouldn't judge him on this performance but he did OK. Miscontrolled a pass once but other than that didn't do much going forward or make too many mistakes.

But the theme for me this season is how bad the referees have been to us, examplified by Mr Dowds inept performance at WHL. I am not saying that if that freekick wasn't given that we would have won those two pens. I understand - butterfly effect and all - but if we don't concede the second I could defintely have seen us getting a win. It's a travesty the number of decisions going against us. It is an even bigger travesty when stonewall penalties are not given to us. I tell you what I nearly broke my TV again yesterday.

On a whole though it was an excellent performance undone by a lapse in concentration and a freekick that never was.

Offline Garcepticon

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2012, 11:18:52 PM »
Im worried, because I think we are going to get smashed by Spurs and I don't think our fans will react well to it at all.

I didn't expect a win, with the direct match up of our play style and proneness to errors coupled with their pace and Defoe - that was bound to happen. Until we have got the forwards to compete for our front three I don't see us progressing to the same level as Spurs.

I really enjoyed how well we played, however I really didn't like how Spurs would knock the ball around from back to front and then tease us out of our shape, simply because I want us to be doing that much more efficiently. Furthermore I don't like how when they were on top our defence dropped to the edge of the box. I'd like to see us with a higher line, especially when we need to get back into the game.

Great character from the lads but I fucking want some points. I have a lot of faith in Rodgers to pick them up given a boost to our squad though.

THE SEASON STARTS NOW. RIGHT HERE. We need to pick up points, it is going to be difficult but we absolutely have too. If we don't then January is going to be awful for us (attracting players.)

Offline Il Capitano

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2012, 11:28:21 PM »
For me the key thing of the game is that Spurs have a goalscorer (Defoe) and 4 other players in midfield than can get you a goal (Bale, Lennon, Dembele, Dempsey). We have just Suárez. Even Gerrard doesn't look like scoring anymore. Was that the difference or was Gareth Bale a one man wrecking ball for Spurs tonight?

Lennon has scored no more than three league goals per season for the last four years. Bale hasn't ever reached over nine league goals a season. Dembele has just six goals in the Premier league. Dempsey has had good numbers for Fulham in the last two years, I'll give you. The only genuine striker you listed there in Defoe has failed to score over ten league goals in three of the last five years at Spurs. Hardly enthralling numbers, you're making this assessment of their attacking talent based mainly on hype and reputation rather than substance.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2012, 11:30:10 PM by Il Capitano »

Offline DanA

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2012, 11:57:41 PM »
Lennon has scored no more than three league goals per season for the last four years. Bale hasn't ever reached over nine league goals a season. Dembele has just six goals in the Premier league. Dempsey has had good numbers for Fulham in the last two years, I'll give you. The only genuine striker you listed there in Defoe has failed to score over ten league goals in three of the last five years at Spurs. Hardly enthralling numbers, you're making this assessment of their attacking talent based mainly on hype and reputation rather than substance.

Granted you can probably excluded Lennon but i'd say Bale, Dembele and Dempsey are goal threats certainly more so than all our midfielders excluding Gerrard who doesn't seem to be scoring them this season. And despite what Defoe has done in the past he's on track for a 15-20 goal season right now.

I think there is a valid point in that I can't see Enrique and Sterling outscoring Bale and Dempsey. Quite simply we don't have the avenues Spurs have to goal and until we do we'll remain toothless playing good football but ultimately going home without the chocolates.
 
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: Round Table: Spurs 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2012, 02:12:25 PM »
Great post Timbo.

Cheers Roy.

I'm very probably doing my inevitable overegging in attempting to compensate for all the tiresome parsimony but fer fecks sake reading some of the comments in that post match thread and in some of the subsequent threads I really do wonder what some folks are seeing on a football pitch. I mean there's always been guys going way back whose views on a game have only ever been informed by the final score. And I do accept that to a degree. But there's times on these forums when it's as if such a tenet is a fuckin pre-requisite for posting.

  ;D