Topic: Roberto Firmino

[Eeyore]

so we win the league when he scores the least amount, 

Last season Mo got 19 goals and 10 assists, Sadio got 18 and 7 assists. This year Sadio's numbers have dipped badly. So I think last season we managed to cope with one of the front three misfiring but this season we have two in Bobby and Sadio.

[Koparoo]

The decline in his finishing stats in the League is pretty incredible.

17/18 he scored 15 against an xG of 10.76 so +4.24
18/19 he scored 12 against an xG of  13.74 so -1.74
19/20 he scored 9   against an xG of  16.69 so -7.69
20/21 he has 6 against an       xG of 10.62 so -4.62 from 29 games.

Whilst his expected goals has increased the number of goals he actually scores has basically halved.

so we win the league when he scores the least amount, 

And he's improved this season (not finished yet?) over last - and yet you're all piling on him...

[Wengerpresser101]

Firmino is not really a centre forward for us, in the way say Benzema is for Real. He's more of an attacking midfielder, like Gerrard behind Torres or so. That said, he should score more, and he has done that in the past.

The problem is that if we get a traditional striker, he will expect to play like one and lead the line. That leaves a huge gap in how we play, especially how we transition from defense to attack. This has been obvious when we have played Origi or Jota in that role.

That leaves us with two options:
1) Find someone similar to Firmino. This is probably an AM, not a striker.
2) Change the way we play. This will affect our wingers Salah, Mane and Jota. Few wingers score as much as them, because most wingers  have to do more defense and more buildup to serve the striker.

I was thinking bout this the other day, and how we could approach this conundrum. I think that the easiest way forward would be some variation of option 2.

What I was thinking was that some of what Firmino's role does is to link midfield to attack, and to press up high. So if we take him out, then we should get a striker who is a finisher, can score, and ideally can press (think Haaland type), while also bringing a midfielder who is capable of linking midfield to attack. Keita would be good in this role, unfortunately he can't stay fit, so bringing in a midfielder who can link midfield to attack and press, say like Aouar, would be good.

So then having a striker who can finish and press, and a midfielder who can link midfield to attack and press, will then replace the two things that the Firmino role brings, in linking and pressing, while also fixing the issues Firmino has now like creating chances and scoring goals. And that way the winger roles like Salah and Mane will also be minimally affected.

[jepovic]

I was thinking bout this the other day, and how we could approach this conundrum. I think that the easiest way forward would be some variation of option 2.

What I was thinking was that some of what Firmino's role does is to link midfield to attack, and to press up high. So if we take him out, then we should get a striker who is a finisher, can score, and ideally can press (think Haaland type), while also bringing a midfielder who is capable of linking midfield to attack. Keita would be good in this role, unfortunately he can't stay fit, so bringing in a midfielder who can link midfield to attack and press, say like Aouar, would be good.

So then having a striker who can finish and press, and a midfielder who can link midfield to attack and press, will then replace the two things that the Firmino role brings, in linking and pressing, while also fixing the issues Firmino has now like creating chances and scoring goals. And that way the winger roles like Salah and Mane will also be minimally affected.

Yeah, maybe, but then we will play differently with Firmino and with the new striker. That could work, but not necessarily.
Personally, I think I'm more in favor of option 1. I think it will cause less problems for Salah, Jota and Mane. Salah is the one aspect of our game that works.

What we definitely should not do is to get a regular striker and hope that he can do Firmino's job.

[Sheer Magnetism]

And he's improved this season (not finished yet?) over last - and yet you're all piling on him...

He scored 12 in 52 last year and he has 6 in 41 this season, so he's actually regressing badly. The difference is that instead of getting lots of chances and being wasteful, he's getting markedly fewer chances and still scoring comfortably below XG. I've said it before but we need to move him back into midfield. It was apparent a few times the other night that we got the ball to the final third only for the box to be empty. It's nowhere near the first time either.

[Jookie]

I've said it before but we need to move him back into midfield.

I just don’t see how this works in our current set up. Not sure Firmino has the physicality or defensive awareness to play midfield in a 3 (with a single pivot).

He can basically play false 9 in the 433 system or No.10 in some variation of 4231 or 442 with a diamond in midfield

[deFacto please, you bastards]

He's not good enough defensively to play as an 8.

[Wengerpresser101]

Yeah, maybe, but then we will play differently with Firmino and with the new striker. That could work, but not necessarily.
Personally, I think I'm more in favor of option 1. I think it will cause less problems for Salah, Jota and Mane. Salah is the one aspect of our game that works.

What we definitely should not do is to get a regular striker and hope that he can do Firmino's job.

I think while option 1 would make the transition easier, the reason why I didn't go with that was because I couldn't think of many number 10s in world football who can do that role (link up play, press, create chances and score) and are available to us.

Like I think Messi is the ideal person to play the Firmino role, because he can link up play, create chances, and score. However he's probably retiring soon so not a good long term option. De Bruyne is the next person I can think of, but he's just signed a new contract. Other than that I can't think of many players similar to that role. Whereas out and out strikers are more available.

Also one drawback of getting someone like that, like Firmino, is that his backup must also be able to play that way. So essentially we would need a new Firmino and a new Firmino lite.

Whereas if we switch our style to a more usual one, the backup can slot in more easily, thus facilitating more squad rotation. (i.e. our situation with Origi being unable to slot in for Firmino in the system, but could if we had an out and out striker role)

[Andy @ Allerton!]

This is what I hate about 'modern football'

Back in the day, fans (except dickheads) would get behind the players and back them to the hilt.

They were one of us.

Nowdays, have a rough patch and 'your modern fan' wants our players fucked off to the knackers yard.

It's the one thing I hate about football. Gobshite fans.

[Samie]

This is what i hate, Liverpool supporters that hark back to what a player did for us and not what he's doing. Why must we always remain in the past? We as a club and a fan base should strive to be better.

[Dave McCoy]

I usually just look at league numbers as when you add in cups, even the CL, the quality of the team or opponent can vary wildly whereas with league games you figure that most are putting out the best team they can.  For his league numbers he's basically been in line the last 4 years on fbref.

17/18 - .36xG per 90
18/19 - .46xG per 90
19/20 - .41xG per 90
20/21 - .42xG per 90

17/18 - 2.64 shots - 1.14 SoT per 90 - .13xG per shot
18/19 - 2.52 shot - 1.07 SoT per 90 - .17xG per shot
19/20 - 3.01 shot - 1.11 SoT per 90 - .13xG per shot
20/21 - 2.63 shot - .90 SoT per 90 - .16xG per shot

He takes the same quality of shots, the same amount of shots but is slightly down on shots on target.  Jus his finishing is getting worse and worse.  Maybe that's a sign of him aging but typically when you think of players aging out they are no longer able to get shots off as they've lost a step.  Yet here he's basically doing the same thing exactly the same way year after year  but getting worse at doing it?  Would seem odd but maybe he was always just a really bad finisher?

[Trendisnotdestiny]

This is what i hate, Liverpool supporters that hark back to what a player did for us and not what he's doing. Why must we always remain in the past? We as a club and a fan base should strive to be better.

Except that we did not get to three straight finals by treating players like disposable products of supporter imagination.  In other words, you cannot change a culture like Kloppo did (making it a family but with high expectations knowing the business side and then treat that family like shit).

Players are sensitive to that culture and tend to avoid being treated like a Mourinho play thing like the plague, and the ones who do come into that kind of culture (I say a Chelsea-esque plastique) are there for the money mostly or reputation.

You cannot sell family, inclusion, togetherness throughout the squad and then start axing players left and right --- that changes the culture, the relationship between coaches, the relationships between the club and supporters, as well as the relations between scouts and the club.

There is a right way to do something and a wrong way --- and too many people are putting this season on Bobby's shoulders instead of the collective mess we've seen written here ad nauseum.

Now, if you do not have the emotional fortitude to back your own players (1 year removed from our first ever Premier League title) and in the middle of an injury plagued pox on the houses of Merseyside (starting with Adrian against Atletico) and a pandemic, then what would you expect in 2 years from now if we do not get back to where we had been?    Sell, sell, sell..... the lot

Casting people off like they are worn furniture is the worst part of crony capitalism and football.   Surely, we have people who see Bobby's value or he'd not be playing?

And while Bobby readily admits this was not a good year for him, I am trying to think who on the team has lit it up (possibly Nat - but he's not in the starting mix for next year when our three CBs get healthy - at least not yet).

So Samie you can be pissed at those who are reluctant to go all in and bash Bobby, but the truth of the matter is HE alone was not going to be the difference (too many Liverpool players played too many games over the last and the collective mix led to everyone struggling to find their best form and hold through long periods of time.

The facts are WE were not good enough.  He is a part of that, but not the cause.   This has been a fucked year all across the planet, what makes Bobby any different (affected, tired, and still giving of himself).

[aw1991]

This is what i hate, Liverpool supporters that hark back to what a player did for us and not what he's doing. Why must we always remain in the past? We as a club and a fan base should strive to be better.

Trust Klopp and trust the players he picks. If next season Firmino is no longer a part of this team, then I will root for whoever replaces him. For now, he's our boy.

As a fan I want to feel connected to our players, so it feels somewhere between disgusting and disappointing to see pages of criticism about one of them. And I'm not going to sit here and pretend Firmino is playing some of his best football in the last two season - he clearly isn't - but in his case, there is absolutely nothing new added to the conversation. Just feels sinister sometimes.

[Wengerpresser101]

This is what i hate, Liverpool supporters that hark back to what a player did for us and not what he's doing. Why must we always remain in the past? We as a club and a fan base should strive to be better.

100% agree with this.

Times have changed, we gotta move on with the times if we want to be a consistently successful club in the modern era. And that means evaluating players via merit (their performances), doing what's best for the club as a whole, and not what's best for one player. Mane is going through a rough patch, so is Robertson. I don't see people asking for them to be sold. Firmino however has been underperforming for 2 years. Based off merit that's not good enough. We gotta be ruthless and look for better options if we want to get back to the top and stay there.

Ferguson used to treat players like family while being ruthless when players were past it like Staam, Van Nistelrooy, Keane etc. That's how Man Utd stayed at the top for so long. This concept that we have to treat players like family and be sentimental towards them even when they have been consistently off form is just wrong.

Axing players who don't perform show we run a merit based culture. Which in turns create higher performances from players who want to regain/retain their place. If a player knows he'll retain his place in the team no matter what because of sentiment, he'll probably become slack. It is only when he knows he'll lose his place if he doesn't perform, then he'll put in the effort. (i.e. how when Jota arrived it prompted a short term improvement from Firmino). A merit based culture is much more important than a family based culture. Ideally of course we aim for both, prioritizing merit. 

Or to put this in another way, if we run a purely family based culture and stick with underperformers forever based off sentiment, we'll end up midtable in 1 or 2 seasons when they're way past their best. The club is much more important than an individual player.

[John C]

and too many people are putting this season on Bobby's shoulders instead of the collective mess we've seen written here ad nauseum.

Great post Trend.

100% agree with this.

And I wouldn't take this as an endorsement of yours Samie mate 

[Samie]

No worries anyone agreeing with me is bound to have some marbles loose. 

[Wengerpresser101]

No worries anyone agreeing with me is bound to have some marbles loose. 

Some? Reckon it's more than some. It's the way to live.

[TheYashLFC]

This is what i hate, Liverpool supporters that hark back to what a player did for us and not what he's doing. Why must we always remain in the past? We as a club and a fan base should strive to be better.

Completely agree.

Nothing wrong with saying Bobby gave us 5 incredible seasons and is a legend at the club now. I don't think we will see peak Bobby again but that does not diminish all the great work he's done for us.

[4pool]

100% agree with this.

Times have changed, we gotta move on with the times if we want to be a consistently successful club in the modern era. And that means evaluating players via merit (their performances), doing what's best for the club as a whole, and not what's best for one player. Mane is going through a rough patch, so is Robertson. I don't see people asking for them to be sold. Firmino however has been underperforming for 2 years. Based off merit that's not good enough. We gotta be ruthless and look for better options if we want to get back to the top and stay there.

Ferguson used to treat players like family while being ruthless when players were past it like Staam, Van Nistelrooy, Keane etc. That's how Man Utd stayed at the top for so long. This concept that we have to treat players like family and be sentimental towards them even when they have been consistently off form is just wrong.

Axing players who don't perform show we run a merit based culture. Which in turns create higher performances from players who want to regain/retain their place. If a player knows he'll retain his place in the team no matter what because of sentiment, he'll probably become slack. It is only when he knows he'll lose his place if he doesn't perform, then he'll put in the effort. (i.e. how when Jota arrived it prompted a short term improvement from Firmino). A merit based culture is much more important than a family based culture. Ideally of course we aim for both, prioritizing merit. 

Or to put this in another way, if we run a purely family based culture and stick with underperformers forever based off sentiment, we'll end up midtable in 1 or 2 seasons when they're way past their best. The club is much more important than an individual player.

So in essence you're saying Jurgen Klopp is a dumb ass.

That he will stick with players for family reasons rather than sell them on and he won't be worried about any decline the club has.

That's really what you are claiming, all because in a forum others posters don't agree with some opinions.

Jurgen knows more about football than the arm chair managers who give their opinions on here. He and his staff will know when players are slipping their standards and more importantly---why.

We've seen damn near every fucking player we have, save a few Virg and Ali, written off at some point during their Liverpool career. From Henderson, to Gini to Milner to Bobby, to Gomez, to Mane to Salah (people question his stats because they dropped off and he wants to go to Madrid don'tcha know). The list is endless.

Fortunately we have a manager who is a proper manager and will deal with keeping us challenging for the top prizes.

Keep the negativity flowing through forums, have journalists who read forums question Jurgen about how bad players are, see Jurgen get frustrated with inane questions, and there's the answer to those who want to bring players down and ultimately bring down our football club from inside. Of course they won't see that or admit to it.

But that is why a few in here try to remind people that we are supporters and the first part of our job is support and belief. THAT is what has stood the test of time and makes the club and Anfield the dreaded place for teams to come. It is why there is an Anfield factor.

Or have us become the Galactico's  United where the only way to win is to buy and buy and buy and get rid of any player who has a mini slump. Question and demand action after every match like spoilt entitled brats.

We're the ones who need to circle the wagons, defend our players, and let the manager get on with it. Worked a treat for the most part in the history of the club but my how some have forgotten the roots of following LFC. Jurgen has delivered what he said he would. Why not trust his judgment instead of questioning it at nearly every turn.

Times haven't changed, "supporters" have because they think their voice is more important than the managers.

[aw1991]

Couldn't have said it better!

[Trendisnotdestiny]

So in essence you're saying Jurgen Klopp is a dumb ass.

That he will stick with players for family reasons rather than sell them on and he won't be worried about any decline the club has.

That's really what you are claiming, all because in a forum others posters don't agree with some opinions.

Jurgen knows more about football than the arm chair managers who give their opinions on here. He and his staff will know when players are slipping their standards and more importantly---why.

We've seen damn near every fucking player we have, save a few Virg and Ali, written off at some point during their Liverpool career. From Henderson, to Gini to Milner to Bobby, to Gomez, to Mane to Salah (people question his stats because they dropped off and he wants to go to Madrid don'tcha know). The list is endless.

Fortunately we have a manager who is a proper manager and will deal with keeping us challenging for the top prizes.

Keep the negativity flowing through forums, have journalists who read forums question Jurgen about how bad players are, see Jurgen get frustrated with inane questions, and there's the answer to those who want to bring players down and ultimately bring down our football club from inside. Of course they won't see that or admit to it.

But that is why a few in here try to remind people that we are supporters and the first part of our job is support and belief. THAT is what has stood the test of time and makes the club and Anfield the dreaded place for teams to come. It is why there is an Anfield factor.

Or have us become the Galactico's  United where the only way to win is to buy and buy and buy and get rid of any player who has a mini slump. Question and demand action after every match like spoilt entitled brats.

We're the ones who need to circle the wagons, defend our players, and let the manager get on with it. Worked a treat for the most part in the history of the club but my how some have forgotten the roots of following LFC. Jurgen has delivered what he said he would. Why not trust his judgment instead of questioning it at nearly every turn.

Times haven't changed, "supporters" have because they think their voice is more important than the managers.

[Wengerpresser101]

So in essence you're saying Jurgen Klopp is a dumb ass.

That he will stick with players for family reasons rather than sell them on and he won't be worried about any decline the club has.

Wow. An entire post dedicated to something that I didn't say.

When I mentioned the family reasons vs merit, I was referencing Trendisdestiny post and narrative, and pointing out why the family reasons pov is wrong, because meritocracy. I don't know how Klopp came into the convo.

I gotta admit tho, this part cracked me up.

Or have us become the Galactico's  United where the only way to win is to buy and buy and buy and get rid of any player who has a mini slump. Question and demand action after every match like spoilt entitled brats.

Mini slump? hahahahahaha. Are you actually calling 2+ years a mini slump? Like yeh I guess the dinosaurs had a mini slump but they'll be back.

We all support players through mini slumps. Robertson, Mane, TAA, all have had/are having mini slumps this season, but nobody have asked for them to be sold.

With Firmino tho, that's not a mini slump. It's been a constant decline, for 2+ years, and he doesn't look like he's gonna get back to his peak any time soon.

So stop with your Galactico's United hyperbole. I don't see people calling for Mane, TAA, Robertson to be sold coz of their mini slumps. Firmino however is a different case. It's been a constant decline, with no end in sight.

Oh and,

Times haven't changed, "supporters" have because they think their voice is more important than the managers.

Times have changed. Players in the past earnt a working man's wage, and if they were sold/let go, they would be looking for a job like the rest of us. However players currently are multi-millionaires.

Seeing as they are paid (in Firmino's case), 9.3 mil pounds a year, I think we should expect a return on that scale, or at least some sort of return on that.

Also players nowadays live in a different reality to the rest of us. Just look at Jlingz, Neymar etc, and the lifestyles they live. They don't live the same lifestyle as the rest of us. They don't face the same life problems we face. Whereas back in the old days I would say players lifestyles and the every day person's lifestyle were much more similar.

In addition, players nowadays are much less loyal to the club than they were in the past. They focus much more on their career. You saw what happened to Torres, to Suarez, to Coutinho. We showered them with love and they still wanted to leave us to win trophies. Even Van Dijk wanted to leave Southampton because they didn't offer him what we could. Trophies.   

If anything the 00s and 10s have taught us is that you can support a player all you want, if you aren't a club winning trophies, they're not gonna wanna stay or join. From Owen to Mascherano to Torres to Suarez to Coutinho, this has rang true time and time again.

And that's why being at the top and staying at the top is so important. Because the truth is that nowadays players don't come to or stay at a club because of love from fans. They come to or stay at a club because of trophies. Love from fans is just a bonus.

So yeh I am aware of all these factors about present day players, so that's why, in reply to this,

But that is why a few in here try to remind people that we are supporters and the first part of our job is support and belief. THAT is what has stood the test of time and makes the club and Anfield the dreaded place for teams to come. It is why there is an Anfield factor.

I support the club rather than individual players. Sure I have my favourites like Mane and TAA, but ultimately I support the club and Klopp over individual players.

Which is why I want what's best for the club, and not what's best for Firmino. And so if it means that our attack would be better with a finisher in the Haaland mould, instead of Firmino, then so be it. Which then lead to the cozy tactical discussion about the best way forward for our attack and life after Firmino that I was having with jepovic, before the superfans got all upset about it. 

[4pool]

I support the club rather than individual players. Sure I have my favourites like Mane and TAA, but ultimately I support the club and Klopp over individual players.

The club are the players.

And manager and his staff.

Not some of the players. Not just a few favorites. All of them.

Used to be one would go to the pub after the match and maybe have a moan. And if what you thought you saw wasn't what most others did , you were laughed at and brought 'round.

Not in forums though. It seems if one wants a bit of a rant or full on rant, there is no talking sense back to them. They just get entrenched in their dogma.

True players come and go. We've seen them all leave at some point. From Billy Liddell to Phil Coutinho. Torres, Suarez, Aldridge, Rushie, Barnes, Shaggy,  Carragher, Gerrard, all of them. So what.

We have those players at the club we do. ALL of them deserve our support. Especially against outsiders and the media. Some fans...not supporters imho... seem to have lost sight of what makes supporting this club so special.

It's been posted so many times specifically to those who have a go at Bobby. Fine , you've had your say. But every time Jurgen is asked about Bobby..not scoring, not a proper #9, not as good as he was, he's getting older and slowing down, whatever is spouted in here--sorry asked of Jurgen by the media...it looks like Jurgen wants to come across the table at them and give them a slap. He's said himself he's tired of defending Bobby. He said if you don't see what he brings to the side, nowt much he can convince you otherwise. So, imho, what one need to ask ones self is if you believe in Jurgen, why can't you believe him when it comes to his opinion on Bobby?

Edit: and for those who will post, he's only doing that to not have a go at Bobby. Do you truly think Jurgen is that shallow and dishonest to not be honest with the player himself and us Liverpool supporters? Have you really seen him do that to player we've had? I damn sure haven't. Jurgen just sits them on the bench or takes them out of the squad and then demands they up their standards in training to get back in. Has he done that with Bobby? The answer is no. Not even close. So more along here, nothing to see here without tinfoil hats. Again, imho.

[Wengerpresser101]

I support the club rather than individual players. Sure I have my favourites like Mane and TAA, but ultimately I support the club and Klopp over individual players.

The club are the players.

And manager and his staff.

Not some of the players. Not just a few favorites. All of them.

Used to be one would go to the pub after the match and maybe have a moan. And if what you thought you saw wasn't what most others did , you were laughed at and brought 'round.

Not in forums though. It seems if one wants a bit of a rant or full on rant, there is no talking sense back to them. They just get entrenched in their dogma.

True players come and go. We've seen them all leave at some point. From Billy Liddell to Phil Coutinho. Torres, Suarez, Aldridge, Rushie, Barnes, Shaggy,  Carragher, Gerrard, all of them. So what.

We have those players at the club we do. ALL of them deserve our support. Especially against outsiders and the media. Some fans...not supporters imho... seem to have lost sight of what makes supporting this club so special.

It's been posted so many times specifically to those who have a go at Bobby. Fine , you've had your say. But every time Jurgen is asked about Bobby..not scoring, not a proper #9, not as good as he was, he's getting older and slowing down, whatever is spouted in here--sorry asked of Jurgen by the media...it looks like Jurgen wants to come across the table at them and give them a slap. He's said himself he's tired of defending Bobby. He said if you don't see what he brings to the side, nowt much he can convince you otherwise. So, imho, what one need to ask ones self is if you believe in Jurgen, why can't you believe him when it comes to his opinion on Bobby?

Edit: and for those who will post, he's only doing that to not have a go at Bobby. Do you truly think Jurgen is that shallow and dishonest to not be honest with the player himself and us Liverpool supporters? Have you really seen him do that to player we've had? I damn sure haven't. Jurgen just sits them on the bench or takes them out of the squad and then demands they up their standards in training to get back in. Has he done that with Bobby? The answer is no. Not even close. So more along here, nothing to see here without tinfoil hats. Again, imho.

I do know what he brings to the side. Pressing from the front, linking midfield to attack. It is what he is not bringing that is the issue, which is creating chances and scoring goals.

Last season Mane and Salah's goals along with Trent and Robbos' assists covered up this issue with Firmino (of not providing enough goals/assists). This season with Mane, Trent, Robbo having dips in form, his deficiencies (creating chances, scoring goals) have been exposed even further. And for a number 10 in a side like ours, he is just not being productive enough. When it comes to assists and goals.

And of course Klopp isn't gonna come out and say oh I wish Firmino would score more, or oh I wish Firmino would assist more. He doesn't throw our players under the bus like Mourinho. Like with Ben Davies, he said he was a very good player, but he hasn't started once. And with Minamino, in start of Jan he said he adapted well to the league, and probably should play more, but then he went out on loan. So yeh Klopp is nice towards all our players, he isn't gonna like say bad stuff about them in public. Which is good to be honest.

As for the supporting part. Sure the club consists of players, coaching staff, etc. However, not all components are equally valuable or equally long-lasting. More specifically, sometimes, supporting a player is in the conflict of interest of supporting a club. Take Ozil for example. Did well at Arsenal at the start, then towards the end, became a liability at Arsenal. Same with Alexis Sanchez at Man Utd. Came with a big reputation, then towards the end, ended up being a liability at Man Utd.

In both cases, Ozil and Sanchez, Arsenal and Man Utd would be better off without them. That's where supporting them as individuals, is in conflict to supporting the club. With Firminio, he is fast becoming a liability to the club. Because of his inability to score goals or create chances. And we can't afford to have passengers in our team.

And that's where I meant, in instances like this, I choose what's best for the club rather than what's best for the player.

[4pool]

It's a team game. But pick on individuals.

Been stated before, but here you go.

Both centre backs out, then Matip. What did Jurgen do? Moved Fab back to CB. What else did he do? Both fullbacks were more experienced, so he dropped them back to help cover for the CB situation. Wonder if that effected Trent and Robbo's ability to attack as much and get their crosses in.

Could it also have been with Hendo-Fab-Gini master class as our midfield trio for the last to trophy winning seasons that with Fab moving back, Trent didn't have as much cover because Hendo wasn't there which helped expose some weakness. Robbo not as much because Gini knew the score. But oh hey, then Hendo missed some matches and Gini went to the 8 position. All this had an effect on our defensive cover and attack. Bobby had to drop deeper, as did Mo and Sadio at  various times, and the goals dried up. All the #9's fault though don'tcha know.

Wouldn't it have been better for our front three to be in or near the opposition box, with fullbacks marauding down the touch line and a midfield which could press the other midfield back. You know like the last few seasons. Nah, that can't be it.

We were trying to integrate Thiago into the mix and , for him, it probably seemed every time he played he had to shake hands with new midfield partners. And then Everton. Which then had him take a while to get back into his stride.

But of course no excuses. We are Liverpool. We must win every match. A little rain on our parade for a bit of the season and the sky is falling.

Oh well. Wait for Bobby to misplace a pass or two and this thread will get bumped. We know who this seasons scapegoat is. It's Jurgen who doesn't know.

[Eeyore]

Bobby's stats have dropped off a cliff there is no hiding from that. He is low on confidence, his pressing ability has dropped, and he is far less influential.

That is the reality. Anyone who loves football loves Bobby, but he needs to find a way out of this slump.

[fowlermagic]

Think he would be ideal as the attacking CM as he can link play and adds 10 plus goals / assists from the area of the park that lacks attacking threat. Also takes a little pressure from him as the likes of Jota should be our automatic man in the box. Give him the #9 while Roberto can be our new #6.

[Eeyore]

Think he would be ideal as the attacking CM as he can link play and adds 10 plus goals / assists from the area of the park that lacks attacking threat. Also takes a little pressure from him as the likes of Jota should be our automatic man in the box. Give him the #9 while Roberto can be our new #6.

For me he isn't mobile enough to be an 8. Doesn't have the defensive instinct to be an 8 and above all shows his talent when he can take risks. We all love him because of his outrageous flicks, close control and no look passes. As a 9 you have the freedom to do that. 

As a CM you are one turnover from the opposition baring down on an exposed back four.

[fowlermagic]

For me he isn't mobile enough to be an 8. Doesn't have the defensive instinct to be an 8 and above all shows his talent when he can take risks. We all love him because of his outrageous flicks, close control and no look passes. As a 9 you have the freedom to do that. 

As a CM you are one turnover from the opposition baring down on an exposed back four.

How could you lose a ball in the ACM position and not have two midfielders holding the fort? To start a conversation about Firmino in a role similar to what Coutinho did and what the likes of Jones, Keita and Ox are trying to fill and talk about lack of defensive instinct beggars belief. You realise Jurgen picks defenders who are probably better in the opponents half than their own so I doubt he will lose much sleep if his attacking CM coughs up the ball now and then if he breaks down the bus parked in front of us with a little magic. Also we have the hardest working attack in the league who rarely allow a team to bear down our backline without their heels getting bitten. I see Firmino role changing with us if he stays here until the end of his contract and why not let him move back a tad as he sure would be an upgrade on Minamino and Keita even as always fit, Jurgen trusts him and has a telepathic understanding with his teammates. We could go out and spend 40m plus on the position or use the parts we already have to improve a part of the team that needs improving. Let Jones grow into the role as backup to Roberto.

[jepovic]

I want to keep Firmino, but we need serious competition for his role. Neither Origi nor Jota can do that. If we get rid of Firmino,  we would have to get two new players, and he wouldnt bring in much money.
If we need funds, we should rather look at trimming our rather bloated midfield squad

[ToneLa]

Transfers thread is here

https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=345734.30560

[redmark]

Think he would be ideal as the attacking CM as he can link play and adds 10 plus goals / assists from the area of the park that lacks attacking threat. Also takes a little pressure from him as the likes of Jota should be our automatic man in the box. Give him the #9 while Roberto can be our new #6.

How could you lose a ball in the ACM position and not have two midfielders holding the fort? To start a conversation about Firmino in a role similar to what Coutinho did and what the likes of Jones, Keita and Ox are trying to fill and talk about lack of defensive instinct beggars belief. You realise Jurgen picks defenders who are probably better in the opponents half than their own so I doubt he will lose much sleep if his attacking CM coughs up the ball now and then if he breaks down the bus parked in front of us with a little magic. Also we have the hardest working attack in the league who rarely allow a team to bear down our backline without their heels getting bitten. I see Firmino role changing with us if he stays here until the end of his contract and why not let him move back a tad as he sure would be an upgrade on Minamino and Keita even as always fit, Jurgen trusts him and has a telepathic understanding with his teammates. We could go out and spend 40m plus on the position or use the parts we already have to improve a part of the team that needs improving. Let Jones grow into the role as backup to Roberto.

To address the bolded point first - because we're not that static. Even playing as the false nine, Firmino will sometimes come between the central midfielders to pick up the ball. Any of our three midfielders can be the deepest at any moment; it's usually Fabinho, but not always - and certainly it's never guaranteed to have two deeper than the more notionally attacking player. Much of the time, either (occasionally both) of the two more attacking midfielders will be relatively wide, and deeper than the fullback on that side. One of our issues this season is that our midfielders have infact been losing the ball more frequently in such positions.

On the first point - Jota certainly scores goals. I'm yet to be convinced that he does anything else to the same level as any of the alternatives in the front three roles. After the first leg against Madrid he seemed to escape any criticism (clearly, it's very good to just have him back), but he was hugely ineffective off the ball, meandering around without either pressing or blocking passing angles, and is frequently ineffective on the ball unless it's within clear sight of goal. He has plenty of positives and plenty of promise, but he's not the magic bullet to our attacking issues.

[killer-heels]

To address the bolded point first - because we're not that static. Even playing as the false nine, Firmino will sometimes come between the central midfielders to pick up the ball. Any of our three midfielders can be the deepest at any moment; it's usually Fabinho, but not always - and certainly it's never guaranteed to have two deeper than the more notionally attacking player. Much of the time, either (occasionally both) of the two more attacking midfielders will be relatively wide, and deeper than the fullback on that side. One of our issues this season is that our midfielders have infact been losing the ball more frequently in such positions.

On the first point - Jota certainly scores goals. I'm yet to be convinced that he does anything else to the same level as any of the alternatives in the front three roles. After the first leg against Madrid he seemed to escape any criticism (clearly, it's very good to just have him back), but he was hugely ineffective off the ball, meandering around without either pressing or blocking passing angles, and is frequently ineffective on the ball unless it's within clear sight of goal. He has plenty of positives and plenty of promise, but he's not the magic bullet to our attacking issues.

I think Jota’s all round game hasnt been good since he has returned but we saw glimpses of it at the start of the season. He had good games against Leicester but also he looked good when we lost 7-2 to Villa. In the first half him and Robertson had a good partnership going.

Might be one of this things still to appear after his injury.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Bobby's stats have dropped off a cliff there is no hiding from that. He is low on confidence, his pressing ability has dropped, and he is far less influential.

That is the reality. Anyone who loves football loves Bobby, but he needs to find a way out of this slump.

Find me a Liverpool player who had a career year Al.... Slumps aren't always individual - they can be collective too - like in a prolonged losing streak?

And as you already know, when one area of the pitch takes on added stressors, it affects the others (especially with a close-knit team like we have).

[AndyMuller]

Find me a Liverpool player who had a career year Al.... Slumps aren't always individual - they can be collective too - like in a prolonged losing streak?

And as you already know, when one area of the pitch takes on added stressors, it affects the others (especially with a close-knit team like we have).

He wasn’t at his best when we won the league last year either though Trend.

[4pool]

He wasn’t at his best when we won the league last year either though Trend.

Says who?

This mantra of Bobby not at his best last season has become the go to bit of a criticism.

We had 99 points last season. We won as a team. Bobby was very, very, very much integral to how we constantly won. And lets not forget we didn't lose a Premier League match until February 29th last season. Almost 7 months on the trot without a League loss.

Now if Bobby had such a poor season last season..what the fuck are people expecting? Invincibles through the whole season?

Fuck his "stats" from last season trying to prove some point about how his play dropped off. If he had the same stats the next 3 years and we continue to win Trophies doing it, I won't give two shits. And neither will Jurgen.

It's like the age old whinges at Hendo. He never did enough. Wasn't really Captain material. Yet the manager had Hendo doing all the dirty work which went under appreciated. Jordans stats weren't the best and many reminded us of it. Jurgen stuck with Jordan because he was doing the roll he was asked to do and doing it very well.

Same with Bobby. It's more than just stats. Always has been.

[AndyMuller]

Says who?

This mantra of Bobby not at his best last season has become the go to bit of a criticism.

We had 99 points last season. We won as a team. Bobby was very, very, very much integral to how we constantly won. And lets not forget we didn't lose a Premier League match until February 29th last season. Almost 7 months on the trot without a League loss.

Now if Bobby had such a poor season last season..what the fuck are people expecting? Invincibles through the whole season?

Fuck his "stats" from last season trying to prove some point about how his play dropped off. If he had the same stats the next 3 years and we continue to win Trophies doing it, I won't give two shits. And neither will Jurgen.

It's like the age old whinges at Hendo. He never did enough. Wasn't really Captain material. Yet the manager had Hendo doing all the dirty work which went under appreciated. Jordans stats weren't the best and many reminded us of it. Jurgen stuck with Jordan because he was doing the roll he was asked to do and doing it very well.

Same with Bobby. It's more than just stats. Always has been.

I didn’t say he had such a poor season, I said he wasn’t at his best last season even though we pissed the league. 9 goals in that season and 6 this season is poor, I know Firmino is immune to criticism for some on here but his goal return the past two seasons has been poor and it’s on a downward trend.

[fowlermagic]

To address the bolded point first - because we're not that static. Even playing as the false nine, Firmino will sometimes come between the central midfielders to pick up the ball. Any of our three midfielders can be the deepest at any moment; it's usually Fabinho, but not always - and certainly it's never guaranteed to have two deeper than the more notionally attacking player. Much of the time, either (occasionally both) of the two more attacking midfielders will be relatively wide, and deeper than the fullback on that side. One of our issues this season is that our midfielders have infact been losing the ball more frequently in such positions.

On the first point - Jota certainly scores goals. I'm yet to be convinced that he does anything else to the same level as any of the alternatives in the front three roles. After the first leg against Madrid he seemed to escape any criticism (clearly, it's very good to just have him back), but he was hugely ineffective off the ball, meandering around without either pressing or blocking passing angles, and is frequently ineffective on the ball unless it's within clear sight of goal. He has plenty of positives and plenty of promise, but he's not the magic bullet to our attacking issues.

Well do we leave as is and continue to see numbers that are way below what is required to win a title or continue to tweak until we get back to a tempo that made us one of the best sides in Europe. Thankfully we can add 3 or 4 starters from within once all are fit as Henderson (at 31 he may have a great season or two left in him), Virgil, Gomez and even Matip will add spine back into our defense. We still are lacking in creativity which is why I am hinting Roberto can move in there as we cannot expect Jones to be the solution yet. The likes of Ox, Keita, Minamino, Shaqiri and Gini could all be gone by Sept, some def should be gone as their numbers / never available hardly warrant a place in the squad. Firmino will be here next season so why not see how he prospers as the link man btw Salah & Jota. I am not worried about him losing possession, its going to happen anyway as we have the players to win it back.

Jota will surely prosper with a full preseason under his belt and right now his form is more than decent considering other vital parts around him are playing their worse football in years. He can only improve once all is settled and he is one of the few bright sparks from this season. You can hardly complain about him v Real when others a lot more experienced have gone missing and he has turned quite a few games already this year with a goal as his per minute average is better than Salah even. That alone should make him an automatic choice for a side sadly lacking in goals this year.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

He wasn’t at his best when we won the league last year either though Trend.

Club World Cup MVP - (btw, he was the starting #9 on a team that won the Champions League, Club World Cup, and Premier League - all in about 12 months time)


Andy mate, my perspective is NEVER to look at individual stats for a team game when the problems are multi-factoral - it leads us to individual conclusions rather than systemic ones.

[4pool]

I didn’t say he had such a poor season, I said he wasn’t at his best last season even though we pissed the league. 9 goals in that season and 6 this season is poor, I know Firmino is immune to criticism for some on here but his goal return the past two seasons has been poor and it’s on a downward trend.

As Jurgen would say, if this is all you look at, there is nothing more to discuss. Or he may say there is nothing more to discuss. Or he may say you don't know football. Or any number of retorts. Similar to when he said other managers come watch LFC and rave about what Bobby does for the team yet he ( Jurgen) gets questions about his stats and not being a proper #9.