Topic: Never mind 'Stop the Boats' - STOP THE TORIES

[oldfordie]

They hate Britain.

Politics before the country even in war. ?

[TSC]

Mortgage rates heading north again.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68874847

[TSC]

Meanwhile the marathon that is Rwanda goes on and on

https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-uk-politics-sunak-starmer-general-election-vote-labour-tories-sky-news-politics-hub-12593360

[oldfordie]

Here's a video I saw earlier today on Twitter from 2005 of people complaining that they could only book a GP appointment within 48 hours of wanting one. The Tories have absolutely destroyed everything!

https://x.com/JAHeale/status/1782000915358126114

I watched that video last night, even that improved by the time Labour were voted out.
I booked my GP appointments online, go back to when the Torys took over, I could book a appointment for any day in the following 2 weeks with a choice of doctors which is important for follow up appointments, didn't take the Torys long to ruin that. can't book online now. get the doctor your given most of the time as well when you are offered a appointment.
I also remember how the Torys left the NHS when Labour first took over back in 1997, had to phone doctors up at 8.30am as appointments were given daily, caused all sorts of problems and arguments at work getting the cover to make the phone call, engaged every time you phoned, all appointments gone for the day when you finally did get through.
People today will react the same way as I did when the Torys get back in the future, they will talk from experience and tell younger people that it will be harder to see a doctor soon, nhs waiting lists will grow, hospital A+E will be chopped.

[Red Beret]

I know the HoL gets a lot of stick for being an unelected body, but considering how many Tory grandees are in there, they really do know how to squeeze hard on the government's balls.

[PaulF]

Exactly. it's not as if this is open to opinion. it's fact. nobody is going to take the risk if they know the UK won't protect them.
Are the Torys this stupid or what. it's hard to understand why they are doing this.

I'm not so sure. Thinking specifically of Afghanistan, working alongside the brits to push out the taliban it what seems to be a permanent solution. I think people will do that again.  They might hesitate given our cuntish behaviour, but the temptation of a much better country will still be there.

[smicer07]

What a fucking waste of time and money on this Rwanda bollocks.

[TSC]

What a fucking waste of time and money on this Rwanda bollocks.

What’s half a billion when Łbillions were wasted on contracts for mates during Covid.

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/rwanda-asylum-scheme-cost-could-soar-to-500m-watchdog-says-369606/

[PaulF]

Be better value for money to pay the asylum seekers 50k a year and teach them to fix potholes. 2 birds one stone.

I've no idea of course if asylum seekers have any interest in pothole fixing! Maybe put them on the board of Thames water.

[oldfordie]

I'm not so sure. Thinking specifically of Afghanistan, working alongside the brits to push out the taliban it what seems to be a permanent solution. I think people will do that again.  They might hesitate given our cuntish behaviour, but the temptation of a much better country will still be there.

I very much doubt if the Army would agree with you, working with our troops puts themselves and their family in danger,  they can do this in the open as interpreters or they can live among the locals and provide intelligence secretly, maybe the odd single patriot might but the majority are not going to do that if they know we sell them and their family out by not protecting them when things go drastically wrong. it's bad enough not giving them visas when they did manage to get to France safely, now we want to boot them out when they do get here. the Torys will take a hammering over this, I would hope the next generation of Torys in 5 -10yrs apologise publicly and say they will never support this disgusting policy again.

[oldfordie]

I know the HoL gets a lot of stick for being an unelected body, but considering how many Tory grandees are in there, they really do know how to squeeze hard on the government's balls.

Yep, I urged people to watch the BBC documentary meet the Lords a few yrs back, the Lords needs reforming but we shouldn't cut off our nose to spite our face, the Lords is full of Charlatans getting paid a nice backhander for doing nothing but the majority do know their stuff, many are experienced ex politicians, It's not a exaggeration to say they understand government bills better than the government itself, it's very hard to con the Lords for this reason. they stood firm on Brexit, same with Rwanda and am sure there are many other examples.
What surprised me is they are always sending bills back for amendment but it's not because they oppose the bill itself, they see a problem with the wording in the bill, they make recommendations on the wording, how it won't work like this but it will if you word it like this. the bill passes without any controversy.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I very much doubt if the Army would agree with you, working with our troops puts themselves and their family in danger,  they can do this in the open as interpreters or they can live among the locals and provide intelligence secretly, maybe the odd single patriot might but the majority are not going to do that if they know we sell them and their family out by not protecting them when things go drastically wrong. it's bad enough not giving them visas when they did manage to get to France safely, now we want to boot them out when they do get here. the Torys will take a hammering over this, I would hope the next generation of Torys in 5 -10yrs apologise publicly and say they will never support this disgusting policy again.

Yeah right. They are c*nts mate. Absolutely evil.

[Jiminy Cricket]

It does seem incredibility low doesn't it, I was quite shocked myself, assumed it would be the Truss reign? But anyway it's here, 1st June 2019 - set filter to ALL.

https://www.politico.eu/europe-poll-of-polls/united-kingdom/

Ah, the Johnson effect, makes sense. I don't think they have a Super Sub with the Super star status in their ranks anymore - unless Rees-Mogg fancies a crack at the top job?
 

But, you will note, Reform was actually slightly ahead (22%) of the Tories (20%) at the time, for a combined share of 42%. Whereas now, their combined share is 35%.

Edited to add: And at the time of the election, the Tories at 44%, with reform at just 2%.

[thaddeus]

I know the HoL gets a lot of stick for being an unelected body, but considering how many Tory grandees are in there, they really do know how to squeeze hard on the government's balls.

Did the Lords get the final amendment accepted in the end?  The one about Rwanda only being a "safe country" if an independent assessor said so.

I've lost track amongst all the comings and goings but didn't the initial bill declare Rwanda a "safe country" now and forever more?

I'm sure Sunak and his puppeteers will be hoping for countless legal challenges culminating in the ECHR being drawn into it.  The policy is clearly a hugely expensive dud but if it lets the Tories badge themselves as the people vs. the system then it's served a purpose for them.

[gazzalfc]

Did the Lords get the final amendment accepted in the end?  The one about Rwanda only being a "safe country" if an independent assessor said so.

The Lords backed down on that but they did manage to get through an amendment on Afghan translators (the government will not send those who are eligible under the Afghan Relocations and Assistance Policy (Arap) to Rwanda)

[PaulF]

The Lords backed down on that but they did manage to get through an amendment on Afghan translators (the government will not send those who are eligible under the Afghan Relocations and Assistance Policy (Arap) to Rwanda)

going back to what oldfordie was saying. You'd think this leaves the 'policy' open to all sorts of legal challenges now. Ie how can we ship people off to a not safe country.
The Lords was trying to do its job and make sure there couldn't be legal succesful legal challenges, as Rwanda would have to be deemed safe before trying to put people on planes.

Good explanation by the way oldfordie (assuming you are right, and I have no reason to doubt you), the purpose of the Lords is not to rule on whether it is right to pass the bill. Just if the bill will be effective in achieving its intention.

[oldfordie]

The Lords backed down on that but they did manage to get through an amendment on Afghan translators (the government will not send those who are eligible under the Afghan Relocations and Assistance Policy (Arap) to Rwanda)

The purpose of the Lords is to highlight bad laws to bring them to the attention of the public. to offer advice to the government on the proposed law. you have to remember when the Lords was first formed, there wasn't any media so this was the way bad laws were exposed. the Lords has always allowed bad laws to pass after so many attempts as they concede a very important point, they are not elected. the government make the laws not them so I wouldn't look at it as backing down, they've held up the bill for as long as they can to highlight just how bad it is, they've made suggestions to improve the bill.

Are you sure this amendment on afghan translators passed. am not doubting what you say but it must have been late in the evening when it did pass. Cooper was saying it never passed at 7.15pm last night.

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Yvette Cooper
@YvetteCooperMP
Tory MPs have just voted again to insist that Afghans who worked for our armed forces & who put their own lives at risk for our country can be sent to Rwanda.

Against military advice.

And against the pledges Ministers  made to support those who supported us

[TepidT2O]

5 migrants have died when their boat sank.

Today.

There are no safe routes, so people take tremendous risks. We can stop this, we choose not to

[stewil007]

5 migrants have died when their boat sank.

Today.

There are no safe routes, so people take tremendous risks. We can stop this, we choose not to

And they will continue to do so even IF planes ever do take off to Rwanda because when theres only 1% chance of being jetted off especially after you've risked life and limb to get here, this isn't and never was a deterrent.

[oldfordie]

I think Labour really has to ask the Torys if they have other ways of stopping people coming on the boats besides the Rwanda deterrent, if the numbers do go down by the election late in the year the Torys are going to put all down to Rwanda deterrent working when other clamp downs have worked.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

I think Labour really has to ask the Torys if they have other ways of stopping people coming on the boats besides the Rwanda deterrent, if the numbers do go down by the election late in the year the Torys are going to put all down to Rwanda deterrent working when other clamp downs have worked.

The numbers will inevitably drop in the winter due to the weather. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Tories try and time the first flights so that they can point at that drop as evidence that the policy is working.

FWIW I think the policy will work to an extent as it will likely discourage the proportion of migrants who are travelling for economic reasons. The problem then though is that the policy ends up being targeted at the most vulnerable migrants who are either desperate enough to still make the crossing or isolated enough from any information that they are not aware of the risk of being sent on to Rwanda. Then you also have the issue of whether it is right that the policy should be used retrospectively on people who have already arrived in the UK before its introduction.

One other thought - whilst the Tory rhetoric on this is grim I think it is important to acknowledge that this issue is one where a great deal of the responsibility lies with Western Europe as a whole rather than just the UK Tories. You never hear a lot of talk about what responsibility France bears for making its country so inhospitable and hostile that people are forced into small boats to cross the channel to escape from there.

[PaulF]

And they will continue to do so even IF planes ever do take off to Rwanda because when theres only 1% chance of being jetted off especially after you've risked life and limb to get here, this isn't and never was a deterrent.

the flip side to that though, is send a bigger percentage. That's what they'll say.

[oldfordie]

The numbers will inevitably drop in the winter due to the weather. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Tories try and time the first flights so that they can point at that drop as evidence that the policy is working.

FWIW I think the policy will work to an extent as it will likely discourage the proportion of migrants who are travelling for economic reasons. The problem then though is that the policy ends up being targeted at the most vulnerable migrants who are either desperate enough to still make the crossing or isolated enough from any information that they are not aware of the risk of being sent on to Rwanda. Then you also have the issue of whether it is right that the policy should be used retrospectively on people who have already arrived in the UK before its introduction.

One other thought - whilst the Tory rhetoric on this is grim I think it is important to acknowledge that this issue is one where a great deal of the responsibility lies with Western Europe as a whole rather than just the UK Tories. You never hear a lot of talk about what responsibility France bears for making its country so inhospitable and hostile that people are forced into small boats to cross the channel to escape from there.

Some good points, not sure how many come for economic reasons but am sure that must be at the back of the Torys minds. something to think about.
What annoys me is this stop the boats dates back to when we left the EU, the Torys incompetence created a new opportunity for criminal gangs to make real money, we are stuck with that for many years to come.  the Torys attitude towards France and the rest of the EU caused a lot of friction, Labour were saying this a few yrs back, the Torys were insulting France, they needed to ask for Frances co-operation to stop people leaving in the boats. something the Torys looked at as crawling to the EU, Patel lied many times over setting up Visa application posts when Labour were telling them people are coming on boats because you haven't set up visas application posts, Patel lied and said she had done, all she did was talk nasty and tough instead of actually solving the problem. Braverman carried it on, talk nasty and tough while doing nothing to stop it. I couldn't blame France if they told us to piss off after the way the Torys Brexit nutters ridiculed them.
I think you maybe jumping to a few conclusions though, some already have family here, some can speak English better than French but yeah. afaik. benefits are given quicker here.
Am not going to look for the stats right now but don't France take in far more refugees than us?

[Yorkykopite]

Here's a video I saw earlier today on Twitter from 2005 of people complaining that they could only book a GP appointment within 48 hours of wanting one. The Tories have absolutely destroyed everything!

https://x.com/JAHeale/status/1782000915358126114

That's quite a famous clip. It shows how difficult it is for a social-democratic government to govern. People essentially complaining that the health service was working too efficiently. Never underestimate the desire of voters to whinge and to blame all politicians for everything. That was 2005 too. 2025 will be ten times as bad.

[west_london_red]

The numbers will inevitably drop in the winter due to the weather. I wouldn't be surprised to see the Tories try and time the first flights so that they can point at that drop as evidence that the policy is working.

FWIW I think the policy will work to an extent as it will likely discourage the proportion of migrants who are travelling for economic reasons. The problem then though is that the policy ends up being targeted at the most vulnerable migrants who are either desperate enough to still make the crossing or isolated enough from any information that they are not aware of the risk of being sent on to Rwanda. Then you also have the issue of whether it is right that the policy should be used retrospectively on people who have already arrived in the UK before its introduction.

One other thought - whilst the Tory rhetoric on this is grim I think it is important to acknowledge that this issue is one where a great deal of the responsibility lies with Western Europe as a whole rather than just the UK Tories. You never hear a lot of talk about what responsibility France bears for making its country so inhospitable and hostile that people are forced into small boats to cross the channel to escape from there.

The main reason I don’t think the Rwanda plan will work is the proportion of people Rwanda is taking is pretty small, 99% of Asylum Seekers won’t go anywhere near Rwanda and they will know that and take the chance as the odds are heavily in their favour.

[shy_talk]

The main reason I don’t think the Rwanda plan will work is the proportion of people Rwanda is taking is pretty small, 99% of Asylum Seekers won’t go anywhere near Rwanda and they will know that and take the chance as the odds are heavily in their favour.

Rwanda will be the first, not the last. Getting this arbitrary scheme off the ground pardon the pun, is the enablement of a much greater forced exodus. A few hundred million here, a few hundred million there, guarantee's of safety not worth the paper they're signed on, and suddenly a new underclass is borne to be exploited and worse.

This is the cusp of a whole new nightmare.

[TSC]

Rwanda will be the first, not the last. Getting this arbitrary scheme off the ground pardon the pun, is the enablement of a much greater forced exodus. A few hundred million here, a few hundred million there, guarantee's of safety not worth the paper they're signed on, and suddenly a new underclass is borne to be exploited and worse.

This is the cusp of a whole new nightmare.

It’s taken over 2 years to get the Rwanda legislation approved and still the only folk to have travelled from here to Rwanda are the likes of Braverman.  Beyond some unforeseen turnaround for the Tories they’ll be out of power later this year, so zip time time for a Rwanda part 2, etc.

[Huyrob]

What has “ allegedly “ happened today is tragic. It has moved the appalling scenario to even darker times.
A boat with 50 then being “ attacked “ by others resulting in a boat containing 100;+  … is beyond shocking.
It is suggested that armed ( with sticks ) individuals caused the issue.
This event has, in my opinion taken the whole situation to a level I had nor envisaged. 5 people apparently died , 3 males , a mother and a 7 year old child.The males were apparently still on the boat ?
The mob arrived in the Uk …..
I am struggling to work out this situation.

[west_london_red]

What has “ allegedly “ happened today is tragic. It has moved the appalling scenario to even darker times.
A boat with 50 then being “ attacked “ by others resulting in a boat containing 100;+  … is beyond shocking.
It is suggested that armed ( with sticks ) individuals caused the issue.
This event has, in my opinion taken the whole situation to a level I had nor envisaged. 5 people apparently died , 3 males , a mother and a 7 year old child.The males were apparently still on the boat ?
The mob arrived in the Uk …..
I am struggling to work out this situation.

I just saw the clip on Newsnight, basically a load of people made a run for what looked like a large inflatable dingy (much larger then a usual inflatable dingy), the people with the sticks were using them to beat back the French police who were trying to stop them and other people trying to get on the boat.

[PaulF]

BBC News - PM's dementia adviser quits over benefits clawback policy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68885241

I'm guessing the chap that's quit is not a tory.

[TSC]

UK is on a ‘war footing’ is the latest nonsense peddled by the desperado’s.  The man of many identities, Grant Shapps, being challenged on sky news now on the fact that much of the funding proposed for defence is not new.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/pm-sunak-we-will-put-the-uk-defence-industry-on-a-war-footing/ar-AA1nwdlZ

[Andy @ Allerton!]

So, the plan at the moment is to shift the idea of the state looking after you, to the state actively wanting to force you to work (The American model again)

Decisions for signing people off, for instance, would be taken from a body that wants you to be well, that wants you to get better and wants to support you and wants to move those medical decisions about your welfare to a body that is employed to save money for the government. They don't care if you're well, they just want you to work or die. They don't want to support you and they absolutely don't want anything but what is 'good' for the economy and the state.

The American model again. Which is the same terminology used by many Tories - including the book that was written about privatising the NHS and moving to the American model.

I said years and years ago that this whole idea of the Tories, Brexit and their assault on Human Rights and other elements is the UK becoming a mini-me USA where we have no rights, we have no NHS (Except for an insurance model which doesn't allow you to be insured if you need it) and we are all forced to work until we die while the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Sick people, disabled people, people with mental health issues are not going to be cared about in the slightest and the Tories would rather they work til they die or just die.

That's actually evil.

But Labour are the same as the Tories. Right. Ok.

[Red Beret]

The Golden Calf known as The Economy - the God we are all expected to sacrifice our lives to, for the Greater Good.

If you are unable to make offerings, then you will suffer exile. Fucked off to a park bench begging for scraps. This is a country only for the strong and capable.

[TSC]

 No fault evictions ban delayed following pressure from Tory landlords

https://www.bigissue.com/news/housing/renters-reform-bill-commons-lords-no-fault-eviction-ban/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/property/no-fault-evictions-ban-not-go-ahead-full-court-review/

https://www.standard.co.uk/homesandproperty/renting/renters-reform-bill-no-fault-evictions-section-21-ban-delay-b1153635.html

[ToneLa]

Fuck off Tory scum
I don't think you should be allowed to be a Landlord AND an MP

=============

This from Politico made me laugh

BOOKED: Speaking of Truss, the tome the temp-PM released last week reached sixth place in the hardback non-fiction chart according to the latest Nielsen figures in the Bookseller.
 Five of the top 10 are air fryer cook books