Topic: It's a conspiraceh

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Not sure if we should be talking about these now in the News Thread?

More and more on my News/Facebook/Twitter feeds I'm seeing rafts of Conspiracy theories about. Well. Everything.

I actually think this has been engineered (You can speculate who by) via the 'Fake News' cries and the way in which Media, Politiicians and Corporations actively spread disinformation regularly.

It has now become the norm for people to say they have 'done research' and then admitting this is actually just reading some Twitter link or Facebook link or other source where some nutjob is banging on about all sorts of shite.

I was arguing with people, but it's so widespread and so common that I rarely bother any more. It's like everyone has got their own sets of facts.

I started seeing it with some Labour left-leaning friends I have basically calling you a cretin if you 'believe' anything at all from 'MSM' - like every single report is wrong in every single way.

I'd actually say that's just as tin-hat and stupid as the Anti-Vaxxers. If you can't turn on a TV or read a paper or go to a website with factual interviews without thinking that every single thing in the entire world is a massive conspiracy then I think you have problems.

[TepidT2O]

The Salisbury one was the one that got me...

Quite astonishing that people actually tried to wriggle their way out of it being the Russians.

[thejbs]

I constantly have to look out for my in-laws. They’re smart, educated people but have a habit of getting fooled by stuff that pops up on their social media. Much of it is presented so it appears like it’s a genuine reputable source. They also don’t see through photoshoppery.  On the other end of the scale, my own parents have no social media in their lives so never regurgitate any conspiracy nonsense.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

I constantly have to look out for my in-laws. They’re smart, educated people but have a habit of getting fooled by stuff that pops up on their social media. Much of it is presented so it appears like it’s a genuine reputable source. They also don’t see through photoshoppery.  On the other end of the scale, my own parents have no social media in their lives so never regurgitate any conspiracy nonsense.

Textbook case of 0 > - 1.

It's better to not learn something at all rather than learn it haphazardly.  With the latter,  when you actually want to learn it properly there is a load of defective memories / patterns to first unlearn.

[AndyMuller]

Social media has a lot to answer for.

[redbyrdz]

Social media has a lot to answer for.

Think its more down to a lack of thinking.

[ljycb]

During my time as a member of the Labour Party I witnessed far too many instances of conspiratorial antisemitism, likewise being from Liverpool there are a lot of conspiracy theories that pick up pace in these parts. A significant minority of people I know refuse to vaccinate their children, refuse to wear a mask and actively protest against 5G masts being put up in their area.

My only take on conspiracy theories is we don’t need to find something hidden away to prove how bad our governments are - it’s all there staring us right in the face.

[BarryCrocker]

<a href="https://youtube.com/v/5muY64Oyp10" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://youtube.com/v/5muY64Oyp10</a>

[Andy_lfc]

Think its more down to a lack of thinking.

Unfortunately lack of thinking, or more accurately lack of critical thinking, is a trait of a huge percentage of the population.  Social media gives the masses access to countless sources of information and disinformation - much of it completely unverifiable and unfiltered for what is true and what's not.  People were happy enough to believe whatever was printed in a tabloid newspaper and now they are happy to believe whatever they read on the internet. 

[So… Howard Philips]

During my time as a member of the Labour Party I witnessed far too many instances of conspiratorial antisemitism, likewise being from Liverpool there are a lot of conspiracy theories that pick up pace in these parts. A significant minority of people I know refuse to vaccinate their children, refuse to wear a mask and actively protest against 5G masts being put up in their area.

My only take on conspiracy theories is we don’t need to find something hidden away to prove how bad our governments are - it’s all there staring us right in the face.

So it's in Government's interests to have a non existent bogey man hiding under the bed to distract people from the real harm. Fact or conspiracy,mmmmm.

I grew up in an era with good newspapers. An example.In the weeks leading up to the 1970 general election the Echo devoted it's broadsheet middle pages to discussion from each parties candidates about the issues facing that constituency.

Now they would focus on the candidates friendship with a celebrity or interesting hairstyle or their passion for some ephemeral fad. Policy issues would be seen as boring.

There are too many, mainly those who now see themselves as middle class, with time on their hands to disseminate this conspiracy rubbish.

[Andy_lfc]

A significant minority of people I know refuse to vaccinate their children, refuse to wear a mask and actively protest against 5G masts being put up in their area.

An approved, working COVID-19 vaccine is going to really expose how much of a problem this is all becoming.  I can only imagine the damage that would have been caused if the MMR link to Autism bollocks had happened in today's social media saturated world.

[So… Howard Philips]

Unfortunately lack of thinking, or more accurately lack of critical thinking, is a trait of a huge percentage of the population.  Social media gives the masses access to countless sources of information and disinformation - much of it completely unverifiable and unfiltered for what is true and what's not.  People were happy enough to believe whatever was printed in a tabloid newspaper and now they are happy to believe whatever they read on the internet.

Those lads, the lumpen proletariat?

Looking at the photos of the fruitcake demonstrators in Castle Street recently the majority of them looked like they weren't working class. And they obviously believe this shite enough to expose themselves to public ridicule.

[Bioluminescence]

Working on the climate crisis I've seen an increasing number of conspiracy theories that aim to discredit not only the science but also scientists, as well as maintaining the status quo. The worrying thing is that it looks like it's getting worse, and the conspiracy theories around COVID-19 in particular have been baffling, to put it mildly. And anyone can fall for them - it's got nothing to do with education. Those behind the conspiracy theories know which strings to pull to have maximum impact.

According to the Conspiracy Theory Handbook there are a number of factors that can contribute to the success of conspiracy theories, such as a feeling of powerlessness, uncertainty and threats, so it looks like it's going to get worse. I recently read (I can't remember where) that they were expecting anti-vaccine conspiracy theories to gain even more traction, which is discouraging when you consider the ongoing pandemic. Understanding the template and underlying factors of such theories might help protect us against falling for them, but since any evidence against them is considered to be part of the conspiracy, I'm not sure how much can be done to undo the damage already caused.

It's all a bit grim.

[Alan_X]

This has been a concern of mine for a long time. I wrote this in 2008:

I agree with the title.

A conspiracy theorist isn't someone who is willing to question their government. It's someone who is so gullible they will believe any old shite if it's presented in the right way - usually with the most limited of evidence.

In fact the more limited and circumstantial the evidence the better. Vague flashes, puffs of smoke, odd shadows, cod science, snatches of conversation taken out of context and most importantly coincidence are the staple "evidence" for conspiracy theories. Whereas any scientific study by experts in their field or government and independent reports can be immediately dismissed or seen as proof of the depth of the conspiracy.

Humans naturally seek explanations. Conspiracy theories are about simplistic all-encompassing explanations of things like assassinations and disasters which go against natural justice. Something as devastating and horrific as 9/11 couldn't possibly be caused by 19 Arabs could it? It's too immense and requires an appropriately immense explanation. Conspiracy theories invariably start with a supposition or an explanation, then look for evidence to support it.

The reason they're so dangerous is that they base their world view on prejudice and a willingness to accept blatant propaganda without question.

 I know that governments lie to us sometimes, but they don't lie all the time.

In the years since I wrote that the spread of conspiracy thinking has been amplified by algorithms on Facebook in particular. Garbage like 5G/Covid and the QAnon shite are repeated by news outlets like Fox in the US and by politicians and public figures across the world.

Lily Allen and David Lammy both spread stories about a 'cover-up' of the 'real number' who died at Grenfell. Tom Watson's regurgitated the Westminster paedophile-ring story. In both cases the fact that it was knoocking 'the enemy' justified the complete absence of any skepticism or critical thinking. It was the Tories so it must be true.

[Alan_X]

Those lads, the lumpen proletariat?

Looking at the photos of the fruitcake demonstrators in Castle Street recently the majority of them looked like they weren't working class. And they obviously believe this shite enough to expose themselves to public ridicule.

You are right that bening educated doesn't stop you being taken in by conspiracy thinking. There are conspiracy theories to fit every social and educational class.

For the well-educated middle-class there's a whole load of conspiracy shite around 'natural food', 'wellness', 'organic farming' and 'anti-GMO'. Anti-vaxxers tend to be well-educated and affluent. There's an arrogance that assumes being educated in one field means you can be an expert about everything. Sadly having a degree in modern languages doesn't mean you understand medicine or genetics.

[Jiminy Cricket]

You are right that bening educated doesn't stop you being taken in by conspiracy thinking. There are conspiracy theories to fit every social and educational class.

For the well-educated middle-class there's a whole load of conspiracy shite around 'natural food', 'wellness', 'organic farming' and 'anti-GMO'. Anti-vaxxers tend to be well-educated and affluent. There's an arrogance that assumes being educated in one field means you can be an expert about everything. Sadly having a degree in modern languages doesn't mean you understand medicine or genetics.

I made similar comment to this to my wife a couple of hours ago - that Qanon-types and conspiracy theorists in general are not necessarily knuckle-draggers. They can be quite functional and clever in other things. But, they are lunatics.

[RainbowFlick]

It's both an age of misinformation, but also the perfect time for opportunists to spread misinformation (re. Coronavirus).

Trump and Brexit have normalised the spreading of half-truths or straight out misinformation and now conspiracies have gained even more traction.

As a kid I used to watch all the scary conspiracies on YouTube, but then realised most of them conveniently often leave out a bunch of information, or target certain groups. The alt-right especially seem to have cornered a market of conspiracies, but it's worrying that these conspiracies seem to spread to those that probably aren't "alt-right".

Just had to see how quickly that Wayfair conspiracy the other month spread on the internet. It's a shame because there are some genuine "conspiracy" type things that should be the focus of these people (e.g. negligence of coronavirus handling, shady business deals by the government re. PPE etc) but people want to believe in the fanatical stuff.

It's pretty pointless arguing with these people until they hopefully realise themselves one day.

[12C]

Unfortunately lack of thinking, or more accurately lack of critical thinking, is a trait of a huge percentage of the population.  Social media gives the masses access to countless sources of information and disinformation - much of it completely unverifiable and unfiltered for what is true and what's not.  People were happy enough to believe whatever was printed in a tabloid newspaper and now they are happy to believe whatever they read on the internet.

I always think back to the Daily Mirror telling the world that John Barnes was on his way to Barcelona, on a Derby day no less.

Still waiting

[Qston]

I think the rise of conspiracy theories has many reasons. They all interplay with each other, but at its heart is social media and the need for 'bite sized' easy to understand information that is in fact nonsense. As Al says, there is no critical thinking anymore but is that the fault of the people that read it or the people that pedal it in the first place ?

Spin, the winding down of industry - particularly in the states and here - over the past 30 or 40 years has created a perfect storm of people looking for answers. Globalisation, the left wing elite, spin etc etc has all fed into this and the narrative the loons are only too happy to fill that void. Their weapon is division and conspiracy. They don`t care about facts, they care about providing those disenfranchised people with what they 'want'. Truth doesn`t matter anymore. The consequences of that are all too apparent.

There are also no really serious politicians anymore. Even post war we had Attlee, Wilson, Macmillan, Eden, Heath, Callaghan and dare I say it, even her. We can think what we want about their policies but these people were actually thinkers and public servants. People who, in the main, understood policy detail and how the state worked. We may not agree with what they concluded, and in some cases vehemently so, but were these people ever really thought of as utterly bereft of ideas and ultimately stupid ? 

What we have now is people desperate to cling on to power with whatever means necessary. Who will outright lie. If the leader of your country consistently lies and works in soundbites rather than detail or fact, then why wouldn`t the average person perhaps give credence to the likes of QAnon, paedophile rings in high places, 5G , vaccines and so on ? Politicians lie at will so the logical step is that perhaps there is truth in what people read online and are sent via social media. Bite sized information that is sold as plausible.

And now you have entire state apparatus being aimed at disinformation, again using social media.

Social media has seen the dumbing down of everything, and politicians are only too glad to follow suit. Someone needs to get a grip of it soon but I fear that the opportunity has long since gone.

And don`t for one minute think that on occasion we are not all guilty of a small part of us thinking "there maybe something in that". We all do it from time to time. We joke about Epstein and killing himself. Perhaps, just maybe, it is just that. He topped himself. Simple as that.

Just a few random thoughts on a subject that, more widely, I care deeply about.

[Red-Soldier]

You are right that bening educated doesn't stop you being taken in by conspiracy thinking. There are conspiracy theories to fit every social and educational class.

For the well-educated middle-class there's a whole load of conspiracy shite around 'natural food', 'wellness', 'organic farming' and 'anti-GMO'. Anti-vaxxers tend to be well-educated and affluent. There's an arrogance that assumes being educated in one field means you can be an expert about everything. Sadly having a degree in modern languages doesn't mean you understand medicine or genetics.

I am interested to know what this "conspiracy shite" is surrounding these topics?  What do mean by "Natural food" and  "Wellness"?

I believe we've had discussions before about organic food.  You say said that they don't have any additional vitamin content, then I replied that the animal welfare and environmental standards are much higher.  People that bash organic food seem to forget that all food was "organic" until the invention of agro-chemicals, starting in the late 1800s

In addition, I would hardly compare theories relating to 'natural food', 'wellness', 'organic farming' to the dangerous, Anti-Vaxxer movement.

[Andy_lfc]

I always think back to the Daily Mirror telling the world that John Barnes was on his way to Barcelona, on a Derby day no less.

Still waiting

Exactly this! Back then the power to spread disinformation was held by the few - newspaper editors, television news for example.  Now any anonymous lunatic can set themselves up as an anonymous 'insider' and spread any old guff they want on public, open access forums.  There are differences though - look at the Q-Anon 'Q drops', they rarely explicitly say anything concrete, but scatter enough seeds and encourage others to 'do the research'.  this leads to fantastical nonsensical 'takes' that gain traction among those duped in to believing.  I can still hear the screams of the mole children under Central Park!

[Jm55]

I agree with the premise of the thread, conspiracy theories are something which I tend to avoid at all costs unless a fancy a laugh. There's a certain sadness about an individual who is so lacking in the ability to enjoy life for what it is, that they have to seek gratification by engaging in a fantasy world of fabricated versions of the truth, as if exposing this greater explanation for historical events somehow validates their existence.

What I will say is part of this reminds me of a phrase which I first heard concerning offence culture, and that is 'people are only offended when it affects them,' the classic example being a comedian mocking several different types of people, professions etc, which a member of audience laughs at, until he makes a joke that affects them personally and that is 'taking it too far.' The reason I say this is because I do think that, whilst the majority of sane people accept that notions of chem-trails, anti-vaxxing and the earth being flat are overtly ridiculous, that there are levels of conspiracy theory which we're more willing to accept despite featuring the same characteristics as the more obvious examples (those characteristics being a lack of objective evidence, comments taken out of context and a hard and fast line of subjectivity pointing to the explanation that the theorist is trying to promote.) I do feel as though it is more common than we will readily admit, to take the tack of 'conspiracy theories are ridiculous apart from the few that I think have some merit, I can certainly admit to being guilty of this myself in the past. As example of that within this forum, whenever Man United get a penalty, or whenever City get a favourable cup draw this forum is full to the brim of conspiracy shite that the refs have been paid off etc etc, you don't need me to point the details out as everyone is familiar. As per the point Alan made in the post in which he quoted that 'Government's lie sometimes but not all the time' it is also fair to say that 'there is some corruption in football (or whatever example you want to pick,') but it is not there all the time.

I think you have groups of conspiracy theorists who, for whatever reason, choose to live in a world of fantasy despite all rational evidence pointing to the contrary, but I also think there's another, likely far more populous group of individuals who use conspiracy theories to explain away events which they don't like the result of, rather than looking at the far more rational and obvious explanations which are usually present.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Working on the climate crisis I've seen an increasing number of conspiracy theories that aim to discredit not only the science but also scientists, as well as maintaining the status quo. The worrying thing is that it looks like it's getting worse, and the conspiracy theories around COVID-19 in particular have been baffling, to put it mildly. And anyone can fall for them - it's got nothing to do with education. Those behind the conspiracy theories know which strings to pull to have maximum impact.

According to the Conspiracy Theory Handbook there are a number of factors that can contribute to the success of conspiracy theories, such as a feeling of powerlessness, uncertainty and threats, so it looks like it's going to get worse. I recently read (I can't remember where) that they were expecting anti-vaccine conspiracy theories to gain even more traction, which is discouraging when you consider the ongoing pandemic. Understanding the template and underlying factors of such theories might help protect us against falling for them, but since any evidence against them is considered to be part of the conspiracy, I'm not sure how much can be done to undo the damage already caused.

It's all a bit grim.

There's a conspiracy theories handbook!?

Wow!

[So… Howard Philips]

I wonder if all of these people who religiously follow all of these crank conspiracies would have benefited by exposure to established religion?

They could have wasted as much energy praying in a mosque or taking communion or even better going to confession or chanting hari Krishna. At least then their fantasies would have stood the test if time and left the rest of us to get on with our lives.

[Alan_X]

I am interested to know what this "conspiracy shite" is surrounding these topics?  What do mean by "Natural food" and  "Wellness"?

I believe we've had discussions before about organic food.  You say said that they don't have any additional vitamin content, then I replied that the animal welfare and environmental standards are much higher.  People that bash organic food seem to forget that all food was "organic" until the invention of agro-chemicals, starting in the late 1800s

In addition, I would hardly compare theories relating to 'natural food', 'wellness', 'organic farming' to the dangerous, Anti-Vaxxer movement.

I would connect them. There's general sense of 'getting in touch with nature' as being a good thing. Organic foods, Reiki healing, Homeopathy are all essentially about rejecting science. 'Science' is seen as something to be suspicious of at best, positively evil at worst.

It's not absolute - it's a continuum, but if someone believes buying a homeopathic remedy in Holland and Barrett is in any way more effective than prescribed medicine they are more likely to believe people who say vaccines are dangerous because they are 'unatural'.

The epitome of the 'wellness' fetish is Goop, where Gwyneth Paltrow sells women jade eggs to shove up their vaginas and other, very expensive nonsense.

*edit, and you're right that all food was 'organic' until the creation of chemical fertilisers and pesticides. It's interesting that you call them 'agrochemicals'. Do you call aspirins 'medicochemicals?  Are 'Chemicals' bad?

Here's a diagram that shows the impact of 'agrochemicals' and scientific development on potato and sugar beet yields in the UK:



There are similar graphs for corn, wheat etc. Organic farming would need a huge land area to feed the world or the culling of billions of people across the world.

I love 'heritage' foods and I buy 'farm-reared' meat but that's because I can afford it and it often taste better. I don't confuse that with the realities of feeding the planet. My personal solution is to buy meat less often but buy better quality.

[Alan_X]

I wonder if all of these people who religiously follow all of these crank conspiracies would have benefited by exposure to established religion?

They could have wasted as much energy praying in a mosque or taking communion or even better going to confession or chanting hari Krishna. At least then their fantasies would have stood the test if time and left the rest of us to get on with our lives.

Conspiracy theories are religion to all intents and purposes. They are belief-based and evidence-free, offering a single over-arching explanation for everything.

Religion and conspiracy theories offer reassurance that the world is not completely random and chaotic. They don't stop bad things happening but at least when they do happen it's possible to ascribe a meaning to them.

The natural human reaction to the Beirut blast for example is that something that devastating and traumatic had to happen for a reason. Someone must be behind it. Surely something that big couldn't happen through a random chain of events?

[S]

I don't have any data to hand, but I think we can all assume there is a direct correlation between the rise of social media and the popularity of conspiracy theories.

At the heart of it, as I mentioned in another thread, is a basic need to be "in the know". The person who believes in a conspiracy theory is driven by a desire to assert a level of superiority over a non-believer. Of course they don't know that's why they behave in such a way. I think there's a deep underlying sense of insecurity in such people though. A healthy mind should maintain a rational skepticism of power, the conspiracy theorist instead goes down the route that everything has been designed to thwart them. That's where the insecurity comes in, because nothing can ever be their fault. The game is rigged.

There's a guy who runs a YouTube car channel that I watch. He's only about 19. A lot of the videos are just a dash cam of him driving around, talking to whoever is sat with him. His thoughts on any current affairs are just an impenetrable mess of deluded theories, to such an extent I almost feel sorry for him. I confronted him in the comments section once. I did it almost as an experiment in guessing how he would try to wriggle free. How will I be in the wrong, I wondered?

"Covid-19 is a flu, it's not going to kill thousands of people" was a statement in one of his videos. I quoted this back at him when in the UK alone deaths surged past 10,000.

"The death tolls are inaccurate" was his reply. I quoted data from the World Health Organisation.

"They're paid by Bill Gates" I said I still trust the WHO more than a YouTube mechanic, and asked him if he was using Windows.

He hasn't replied, but if he did I imagine he would have another sidestep ready. I realise this is very anecdotal, but I think it's a useful study of how these people function. At every step I presented reliable and cold statistics. Every response of his put him a step ahead of me. That's what you're able to do when you don't rely on any kind of fact-checking or authenticity. In your own mind you can never, ever lose an argument. You just widen the circle of your conspiracy as far as you want.

[Qston]

I don't have any data to hand, but I think we can all assume there is a direct correlation between the rise of social media and the popularity of conspiracy theories.

At the heart of it, as I mentioned in another thread, is a basic need to be "in the know". The person who believes in a conspiracy theory is driven by a desire to assert a level of superiority over a non-believer. Of course they don't know that's why they behave in such a way. I think there's a deep underlying sense of insecurity in such people though. A healthy mind should maintain a rational skepticism of power, the conspiracy theorist instead goes down the route that everything has been designed to thwart them. That's where the insecurity comes in, because nothing can ever be their fault. The game is rigged.

There's a guy who runs a YouTube car channel that I watch. He's only about 19. A lot of the videos are just a dash cam of him driving around, talking to whoever is sat with him. His thoughts on any current affairs are just an impenetrable mess of deluded theories, to such an extent I almost feel sorry for him. I confronted him in the comments section once. I did it almost as an experiment in guessing how he would try to wriggle free. How will I be in the wrong, I wondered?

"Covid-19 is a flu, it's not going to kill thousands of people" was a statement in one of his videos. I quoted this back at him when in the UK alone deaths surged past 10,000.

"The death tolls are inaccurate" was his reply. I quoted data from the World Health Organisation.

"They're paid by Bill Gates" I said I still trust the WHO more than a YouTube mechanic, and asked him if he was using Windows.

He hasn't replied, but if he did I imagine he would have another sidestep ready. I realise this is very anecdotal, but I think it's a useful study of how these people function. At every step I presented reliable and cold statistics. Every response of his put him a step ahead of me. That's what you're able to do when you don't rely on any kind of fact-checking or authenticity. In your own mind you can never, ever lose an argument. You just widen the circle of your conspiracy as far as you want.

it is impossible to argue with anyone who doesn`t believe in facts that don`t suit their view or agenda. Denial is the basic defence of all people defending misinformation and more general nonsense. You will never convince them otherwise.

"but basic factual science and mathematics demonstrates that the earth is not flat"...."the science is wrong". You cannot argue with someone like that. You cannot convince. You could be in a plane with them and show them the curvature of the earth and they will dispute what their own eyes tell them.

I remember a few years ago watching Richard Dawkins discussing science v religion with various people when he was doing a documentary off the back of The Great God Delusion. One of them, I seem to recall, was teaching science at a well known and respected school to a high standard, but also believed that the earth was only 8000 years old or something. You could see how awkward this fella was as his basic factual education told him he was wrong......but he wouldn`t change his view.

[Nobby Reserve]

Exactly this! Back then the power to spread disinformation was held by the few - newspaper editors, television news for example.  Now any anonymous lunatic can set themselves up as an anonymous 'insider' and spread any old guff they want on public, open access forums.  There are differences though - look at the Q-Anon 'Q drops', they rarely explicitly say anything concrete, but scatter enough seeds and encourage others to 'do the research'.  this leads to fantastical nonsensical 'takes' that gain traction among those duped in to believing.  I can still hear the screams of the mole children under Central Park!

Was the impact of disinformation, lies and 'fake news' any less back then?

We know full well the effect of disinformation, lies and 'fake news'; we fought it for years.

I've read widely about the miner's strike and have been agog at the level of disinformation, lies and 'fake news' spread not just by what is known to the be the right-wing media (expected), but also so-called left-leaning papers like the Mirror and even the BBC (their doctored footage of Orgreave, to make it look like the miners had attacked the police who'd then waded in with brutal violence, when it was the other way round - SYP again, of course, the fucking scum)

I remember having a deep discussion over the course of several days in the early 00's about the impact of the internet on society. This was the time before Facebook/Twitter/etc, when social media consisted of fairly primitive messageboard forums and Friends Reunited. My position then was that the internet gave 'the left' a massive opportunity to get its message out, to counter the constant right-wing propaganda spewed by the predominantly right-wing media.

Rather naive of me, as the left is never able to be cohesive enough to utilise the internet tool effectively, whereas the well-funded right-wing have been able to master the dark arts of it sufficiently well.

[Red-Soldier]

You are right that bening educated doesn't stop you being taken in by conspiracy thinking. There are conspiracy theories to fit every social and educational class.

For the well-educated middle-class there's a whole load of conspiracy shite around 'natural food', 'wellness', 'organic farming' and 'anti-GMO'. Anti-vaxxers tend to be well-educated and affluent. There's an arrogance that assumes being educated in one field means you can be an expert about everything. Sadly having a degree in modern languages doesn't mean you understand medicine or genetics.

I think this is an important point.  For example, I bow down to your superior knowledge and experience in all things construction and the Labour Party, everything else, not so.

[Qston]

Was the impact of disinformation, lies and 'fake news' any less back then?

We know full well the effect of disinformation, lies and 'fake news'; we fought it for years.

I've read widely about the miner's strike and have been agog at the level of disinformation, lies and 'fake news' spread not just by what is known to the be the right-wing media (expected), but also so-called left-leaning papers like the Mirror and even the BBC (their doctored footage of Orgreave, to make it look like the miners had attacked the police who'd then waded in with brutal violence, when it was the other way round - SYP again, of course, the fucking scum)

I remember having a deep discussion over the course of several days in the early 00's about the impact of the internet on society. This was the time before Facebook/Twitter/etc, when social media consisted of fairly primitive messageboard forums and Friends Reunited. My position then was that the internet gave 'the left' a massive opportunity to get its message out, to counter the constant right-wing propaganda spewed by the predominantly right-wing media.

Rather naive of me, as the left is never able to be cohesive enough to utilise the internet tool effectively, whereas the well-funded right-wing have been able to master the dark arts of it sufficiently well.

It is all connected. Misinformation/propaganda has always been a tool of political parties but the means to do that was, as suggested, the newspapers - particularly when Murdoch took over large tracts of the press and media.  However, the prevalence and spread of conspiracy theories has really gained traction since the dawn of the social media age. Fox news in the states picked up on a growing trend of loudmouth radio stations who started to pedal this nonsense and ran with it - frankly it served their needs and increased their share of the market. People love it and they understood that. Social media is the easiest tool to get the nonsense to the most amount of people.

[lobsterboy]

It was called propaganda before. Now its known as social media.

[Alan_X]

I don't have any data to hand, but I think we can all assume there is a direct correlation between the rise of social media and the popularity of conspiracy theories.

At the heart of it, as I mentioned in another thread, is a basic need to be "in the know". The person who believes in a conspiracy theory is driven by a desire to assert a level of superiority over a non-believer. Of course they don't know that's why they behave in such a way. I think there's a deep underlying sense of insecurity in such people though. A healthy mind should maintain a rational skepticism of power, the conspiracy theorist instead goes down the route that everything has been designed to thwart them. That's where the insecurity comes in, because nothing can ever be their fault. The game is rigged.

There's a guy who runs a YouTube car channel that I watch. He's only about 19. A lot of the videos are just a dash cam of him driving around, talking to whoever is sat with him. His thoughts on any current affairs are just an impenetrable mess of deluded theories, to such an extent I almost feel sorry for him. I confronted him in the comments section once. I did it almost as an experiment in guessing how he would try to wriggle free. How will I be in the wrong, I wondered?

"Covid-19 is a flu, it's not going to kill thousands of people" was a statement in one of his videos. I quoted this back at him when in the UK alone deaths surged past 10,000.

"The death tolls are inaccurate" was his reply. I quoted data from the World Health Organisation.

"They're paid by Bill Gates" I said I still trust the WHO more than a YouTube mechanic, and asked him if he was using Windows.

He hasn't replied, but if he did I imagine he would have another sidestep ready. I realise this is very anecdotal, but I think it's a useful study of how these people function. At every step I presented reliable and cold statistics. Every response of his put him a step ahead of me. That's what you're able to do when you don't rely on any kind of fact-checking or authenticity. In your own mind you can never, ever lose an argument. You just widen the circle of your conspiracy as far as you want.

In the 2008 Conspiracy thread I quoted the most amazing thing I read was in a piece about the Pentagon attack, where it was argued that eye-witnesses who said they saw the plane fly into the building was evidence of the high level of illusion and control 'they' could achieve and therefore categoric proof that the plane did not fly into the building.

What is really scary is that there is good evidence that a lot of the worst current conspiracy theories are actually disseminated by Russia and by right-wing groups in the US and elsewhere.

[Alan_X]

I think this is an important point.  For example, I bow down to your superior knowledge and experience in all things construction and the Labour Party, everything else, not so.

That's fair comment. And I wouldn't recommend you take anything I say at face value - always look for verification if it's an important issue.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

In the 2008 Conspiracy thread I quoted the most amazing thing I read was in a piece about the Pentagon attack, where it was argued that eye-witnesses who said they saw the plane fly into the building was evidence of the high level of illusion and control 'they' could achieve and therefore categoric proof that the plane did not fly into the building.

What is really scary is that there is good evidence that a lot of the worst current conspiracy theories are actually disseminated by Russia and by right-wing groups in the US and elsewhere.

Yeah saw some bollocks on Facebook and followed it back to two different websites.

Both Russian run.

One of them was this one; rt.com

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RT_(TV_network)

[Nobby Reserve]

It is all connected. Misinformation/propaganda has always been a tool of political parties but the means to do that was, as suggested, the newspapers - particularly when Murdoch took over large tracts of the press and media.  However, the prevalence and spread of conspiracy theories has really gained traction since the dawn of the social media age. Fox news in the states picked up on a growing trend of loudmouth radio stations who started to pedal this nonsense and ran with it - frankly it served their needs and increased their share of the market. People love it and they understood that. Social media is the easiest tool to get the nonsense to the most amount of people.

My perception is that initially with the net/social media, conspiracy theories were similarly prevalent, but they were scattergun and often dismissed as crackpot.

It took well-funded groups with expertise in SM algorithms to be able to explode the theories to a wider audience, in a more skilful way, and presented with a better veneer of legitimacy.

You mention Fox and all the right-wing shock jocks and you're right. But behind the scenes are the real pernicious hands. The Koch brothers have reportedly fed approaching $half-a-billion into their operations to further their hard-right politics and the manipulation of social media is a major element of that. They're happy to have their names publicised, but others are more clandestine. They all seem to have the same motives, though - to destroy faith in governments and the state apparatus in order to cause a meltdown in societal structure for reasons presumably leading to them being able to redraw society in a tiny state/low-tax/deregulated/survival-of-the-fittest image.

[S]

What is really scary is that there is good evidence that a lot of the worst current conspiracy theories are actually disseminated by Russia and by right-wing groups in the US and elsewhere.

Without a doubt. Given how easily spread conspiracy theories are, it would actually be naive to think that certain states aren't stoking the fires themselves. Your two examples of the Pentagon and Russian meddling actually leads on to another issue with conspiracy theorists.

There are some stories whereby the official explanation of events is more farfetched than the unofficial theory. For example, the official story is that Epstein killed himself. It's far more believable that he didn't. To the theorists that this thread is aimed at though, that isn't interesting enough. Same with Prince Andrew where it's clear the story goes deeper. In those instances the popular sway of opinion is in favour of a conspiracy, and the theorists aren't as fervent. Why? It goes back to what I was saying about being "in the know". Those stories don't give them the same feeling of superiority and insider knowledge as saying the Twin Towers were hollow.

[Lusty]

I don't think this has really changed by modern forces like social media etc.  I think there were plenty of conspiracy theorists out there back in the day and things like Diana being murdered, aliens at area 51, MMR etc. were all pretty mainstream opinions.  Everyone knew a classic pub bore who would get going on stuff like this after a couple of pints.  The X-Files was the biggest show on TV for a while and I know a lot of people who weren't exactly sure it was a work of fiction.  You could buy magazines that covered all this nonsense in WH Smiths.  The MMR hoax was practically endorsed by the Prime Minister and his wife at the time, as well as a lot of the mainstream press.

What maybe has changed is that outside forces are trying to harness this kind of thing to their benefit.  So the aliens at area 51 have been replaced with a deep state conspiracy that only Donald Trump can combat for some reason.

[Qston]

My perception is that initially with the net/social media, conspiracy theories were similarly prevalent, but they were scattergun and often dismissed as crackpot.

It took well-funded groups with expertise in SM algorithms to be able to explode the theories to a wider audience, in a more skilful way, and presented with a better veneer of legitimacy.

You mention Fox and all the right-wing shock jocks and you're right. But behind the scenes are the real pernicious hands. The Koch brothers have reportedly fed approaching $half-a-billion into their operations to further their hard-right politics and the manipulation of social media is a major element of that. They're happy to have their names publicised, but others are more clandestine. They all seem to have the same motives, though - to destroy faith in governments and the state apparatus in order to cause a meltdown in societal structure for reasons presumably leading to them being able to redraw society in a tiny state/low-tax/deregulated/survival-of-the-fittest image.

You may well be right. They understood that people are easy to manipulate and entertain. It is easier to do that though with a receptive audience who are disenfranchised with 'politics as normal' - whatever in reality that is supposed to mean. That takes us back to the dawn of spin, the media specialists and if you want to go even further back, the use of TV as a means of communication with the masses.

The use of social media is just an extension of that but is even more effective because it only allows/requires limited information to take hold. The audience is also much much bigger.

[Nobby Reserve]

You may well be right. They understood that people are easy to manipulate and entertain. It is easier to do that though with a receptive audience who are disenfranchised with 'politics as normal' - whatever in reality that is supposed to mean. That takes us back to the dawn of spin, the media specialists and if you want to go even further back, the use of TV as a means of communication with the masses.

The use of social media is just an extension of that but is even more effective because it only allows/requires limited information to take hold. The audience is also much much bigger.

Absolutely agree on all points.

WRT people disenfranchised with 'politics as normal' as you put it, I had a waffle about this and its impact on recent political matters in the US Election thread - https://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=342706.msg17305834#msg17305834.

Millions upon millions of people DO feel disenfranchised. Jobs are precarious, and an increasing proportion are paid at minimum wage and/or on a temp or ZHC basis. House prices are kept artificially high through massive levels of investment in houses to rent out by people seeking a RoI better than the 1% a bank invariably gives. And we're all bombarded with advertising and a culture that screams your life is a failure if you don't have a nice house/good car/foreign holidays/new kitchen/designer gear/etc/etc.