Topic: Minimum price plan to end cheap alcohol sales

[Tomo!]

So the average working bloke will end up paying more to drink at home while kids and those seeking oblivion will turn to cheaper alternatives, fully expect solvent abuse to make an epic comeback with the same people championing this bemoaning the rise in dead kids from sniffing gas.

The price will do bugger all to stop the pissed up nob head culture ingrained in the UK's pubs, cocaine abuse has seen an rampant rise over the last few years despite it costing 50 quid + for a gram that lasts for a couple of hours.

There's a significant sub culture who regularly blow anywhere upto a couple of hundred quid on coke at weekends regardless of the fact that they can't really afford to do it.

You won't price people out of getting fucked up if they want to.

[Spongebob Redpants]

another 'lets beat down the plebs' idea from the tories. a stupid idea that will prompt people to jump on a ferry to france like before, a practice thats died down a lot recently ( because its now as cheap here, so people spend money HERE). what next a tax on pies or having more than two kids... oh hang on!

or getting benefits cut because you have a spare bedroom ..................

[StokieSteve]

I'm not sure I follow.  Tesco own-brand lager is £1.00 for 4x440ml cans.  How can that be anything other than at a loss and how could they possibly circumvent it?

We know the minimum price will only go up, and the VAT percentage will go up with that, so really this is just a money printing exercise.

Might as well drink water mate, not much more alcohol content than Shandy.

[Giovanni]

Actually what is fucking bollocks is ignoring research literature from all around the world and disregarding the expertise of epidemiologists, public heath specialists and primary care care experts.

Which is exactly what the UK government does on a regular basis including people on their own payroll, thank you for proving my point.

[Sir Harvest Fields]

If it is I'd like it to actually be enforced then.

I got nicked for it a few weeks ago.

[Mikuss]

I got nicked for it a few weeks ago.

Seems to be "ok" in certain areas. Remember as a student I could walk from halls to town without police batting an eye lid!

[Sir Harvest Fields]

I stood there waiting for a taxi, not pissed at all., just me and a mate quietly waiting with just one can and whilst all hell was breaking loose on the main high street the coppers deemed me more of a target. Fuck the lads kicking ten shades of shit out of each other, lets twat the can out of this blokes hand and give him verbal. Walked past the same spot the next day and there were 4 polish guys drinking from a stash they were sat on in the wide open. I admit i was in the wrong but i wasnt causing any problems or drunk.

That aside, ill watch how this all unfolds with time.

[xavidub]

Which is exactly what the UK government does on a regular basis including people on their own payroll, thank you for proving my point.

Whatever they normally do, on this occasion (which the thread is discussing) they appear to be introducing an evidence-based policy.

I haven't proved your 'point' since your 'point' is based on nothing more than your ill-informed opinion.

[B0151?]

speaking as a student this won't do shite

not like (the targeted) people drink because it's cheap, they do it because they want to get bladdered

certainly wouldnt stop the lads i know, just make them wish they had a bigger overdraft

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Don't see much wrong with it, far too many people think a good time is only achieved by drinking themselves into a stupor or into a fight. If they can't afford to have as many drinks then too bad for them and good for the rest of us.

Far too much public money is wasted on policing these morons or on the NHS treating them at the end of the night.

Of the tens of millions of people that go out and have a drink every week, how many do you think end up in hospital or fighting?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

How much do you (need to) drink before you go out? Equivalent to six/eight/ten pints/more?

The problem being, as SP intimated, is that leering at drink girls in town can easily lead to worse when an individual is so drunk, and doesnt keep their distance because they are not rational and can't interpret things correctly any more. Or if another person queers your patch. Etc...

The way you seem to believe people behave after a few pints is astonishing. Have you ever been out drinking yourself or have your got your world view from 1920s novels including the words "Bravo!" "Goit!" and "Jolly ruffian!"

Last time you imagined what a pub looks like - did it look like this perchance?

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

Of the tens of millions of people that go out and have a drink every week, how many do you think end up in hospital or fighting?

The way it's portrayed in the media you'd swear it was like MMA down the pub. I've been going out for 13 years and have had 2 scuffles where I got smacked by some c*nt each time by no fault of my own, not bad going I'd say.

[Sir Harvest Fields]

Ive seen my fair share of drunken trouble but it is far outweighed by the masses that go out for a laugh. Id drink enough to floor a horse and still walk straight without wanting aggro. A lots to do with the individual. Thats not to say ive not caused problems with my drinking, just not the sterotypical view of friday/saturday night pissed up twats who cant handle their piss.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Ive seen my fair share of drunken trouble but it is far outweighed by the masses that go out for a laugh. Id drink enough to floor a horse and still walk straight without wanting aggro. A lots to do with the individual. Thats not to say ive not caused problems with my drinking, just not the sterotypical view of friday/saturday night pissed up twats who cant handle their piss.

It's the usual thing - you get 50,000 people that go out and have a nice time in a City. You get 50 absolute gobshites that go out causing trouble.

You notice the 50 gobshites. Not the 49,950 decent people.

[Giovanni]

Whatever they normally do, on this occasion (which the thread is discussing) they appear to be introducing an evidence-based policy.

I haven't proved your 'point' since your 'point' is based on nothing more than your ill-informed opinion.

If you think putting 50p on a can of beer is going to stop kids getting fucked up on the weekend you wrong.

You are not tackling the cause of the problem head on, which is why do kids feel they have to get fucked up every week? Kids will just find a cheaper way to get fucked up and the problem will continue. It's a stupid policy, and I don't care what paper you pull out that says otherwise.

[Mad Max]

Hopefully this stupid idea will be fucked off by Europe.

[JohnHobbes]

Of the tens of millions of people that go out and have a drink every week, how many do you think end up in hospital or fighting?

How many of those people think it's only possible to have a good time by drinking themselves insensible? That's where this is aimed at, the ones who get so drunk that their decision making is critically impaired. Not the majority of people who have a drink whilst having a good time and don't drink to have one.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

How many of those people think it's only possible to have a good time by drinking themselves insensible? That's where this is aimed at, the ones who get so drunk that their decision making is critically impaired. Not the majority of people who have a drink whilst having a good time and don't drink to have one.

Address the cause of the issue? As has been suggested at least twice already. This won't solve anything, you can quote me on that.

[Red Beret]

The way you seem to believe people behave after a few pints is astonishing. Have you ever been out drinking yourself or have your got your world view from 1920s novels including the words "Bravo!" "Goit!" and "Jolly ruffian!"

Last time you imagined what a pub looks like - did it look like this perchance?

I've got a history book showing people pissed on gin in front of the pawn brokers.  Change the gin to White Lightning and the pawn brokers to cash converters and really nothing has changed in 300 years.

[Bangin Them In]

Heavy penalties for those that are the most persistant anti social people, we have gone away from personal responsibility here.

Those that are in serious scraps aren't that drunk, they are headcases anyway and aggressive violent people, a couple of drinks just elevates their violence, gives them an excuse

Worked in clubs for 20 years and every town, every club, it's been a hardcore of 10-20 people, once you get them banned the actual trouble halves as they are 90% of it.

Banning orders on these people from town centres 7pm-6am, prison if they breach the order.

[JohnHobbes]

The way you seem to believe people behave after a few pints is astonishing. Have you ever been out drinking yourself or have your got your world view from 1920s novels including the words "Bravo!" "Goit!" and "Jolly ruffian!"

Last time you imagined what a pub looks like - did it look like this perchance?

Bravo, you made a "funny". Well done, did you think that up all by yourself? What a jolly ruffian you are. Keep up the good work you rapscallion.

If you asked a serious question then I'd answer it, if you just talk crap then you're not inspiring me to bother with you.

However let it not be said that I didn't try, so let me say it again in small and simple terms for you. People who drink too much, lose both their inhibitions and their ability to judge situations. With me so far? If said people are perving at girls then some of the time the loss of those two things above cause problems to happen. Things are said or misinterpreted easier in such scenarios and this can lead to fights or worse.

Leads me on to my final point, the local nightclub to me had a fatal stabbing recently, care to make more jokes about this? Note in the report below how excessive consumption of alcohol has caused almost all the problems there

According to police, the weapon had been taken into Oceana through Woo Woo bar, which does not have metal detectors.

Documents submitted to the court by Met Police showed a catalogue of crimes at the Clarence Street venue in 2012 including over 250 cases of theft, eight cases of grievious bodily harm and the alleged rape of a 19-year-old girl.

Kingston's borough commander Martin Greenslade said the death was the "defining moment" in the decision to call for the club to be closed.

He told the committee that "almost all" of the violent crimes were committed under the influence of alcohol and that often victims and assailants could not recall events when interviewed the following day by officers.

[JohnHobbes]

Address the cause of the issue? As has been suggested at least twice already. This won't solve anything, you can quote me on that.

Education hasn't worked. The industry has pushed for self-regulation and education for years and nothing has changed. Similar to how well the press self-regulated itself quite happily whilst hacking phones, inventing stories, etc...

If education worked then everyone would be happy to leave it alone. It doesn't though.

[♠Dirty Harry♠]

Education hasn't worked. The industry has pushed for self-regulation and education for years and nothing has changed. Similar to how well the press self-regulated itself quite happily whilst hacking phones, inventing stories, etc...

If education worked then everyone would be happy to leave it alone. It doesn't though.

I'm not talking about education, it's more so the government that needs educated (they already know the answer but just don't give a fuck) in what motivates people to drink so much.

No one drinks to get pissed for the sake of it, there's always a reason, it's the feel good buzz that comes along with it. Why is it that so many young people answer with "There's fuck all else to do" when asked why they use alcohol for their kicks and are then are routinely accused of having a false sense of entitlement and their reasons ignored.

[JohnHobbes]

I'm not talking about education, it's the government that needs educated (not really though, the already know the answer but just don't give a fuck) in what motivates people to drink so much.

No one drinks to get pissed for the sake of it, there's always a reason, it's the feel good buzz that comes along with it. Why is it that so many young people answer with "There's fuck all else to do" when asked why they use alcohol for their kicks and are then are routinely accused of having a false sense of entitlement and their reasons ignored.

There are many factors. I've been told people smoke because they've got nothng better to do, seems bizarre reason to me but who knows?

Whilst there is a culture however that going out with your mates and getting absolutely plastered is the thing to do on a night out then nothing will change. Most countries in Europe people drink but not to the excess that we seem to do. A couple of pints for them is enough but for here it is just a starter.

Who knows why it that is the case? Why people here will drink to the point of having to 'tactically chunder' so they can make room for more, rather than going him and sleeping it off?

[Trada]

I drunk myself though the Thatcher years, but the Tories are trying to make sure I remember the c*nts this time.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

How many of those people think it's only possible to have a good time by drinking themselves insensible? That's where this is aimed at, the ones who get so drunk that their decision making is critically impaired. Not the majority of people who have a drink whilst having a good time and don't drink to have one.

I don't know. How do you know how many they are? Just because people are having ale doesn't mean they are 'drinking themselves insensible'. How many do you think it too much for yourself? Half a glass of sherry? Half a pint of shandy? Don't judge everyone by the fact you seemingly can't take your ale. Plenty of people can have a few pints (or more) and have a perfectly reasonable night out. You seem obsessed with the fact that you think people can't drink without acting like arseholes.

[StokieSteve]

The only thing this current government is doing is making life more and more difficult for the average joe, and it's pissing me off. Prices on everything seem to rise every week, disposable income gets less and less because our wage rises come nowhere near matching that. I'm not joking here, I am slightly worse off every week, something has increased a penny here, two pence there. The thing that really gets me though are fuel prices. If they go up, fuck me we know about it. When they come down, we don't. I'm sick to death of our out of touch politicians telling us what we can and cannot afford. What do they know? Flitting between their houses and claiming expenses. Do me a favour Mr Twat, do something that will actually help hard working families. Otherwise, get your nicely combed hair out of sight. You make me want to puke.

[B0151?]

I've got a history book showing people pissed on gin in front of the pawn brokers.  Change the gin to White Lightning and the pawn brokers to cash converters and really nothing has changed in 300 years.

Yep. Young adults and certain sections of society will always want to get hammered. Always have and always will. I know that just through reading literature and watching old films.

When I was a kid (so few years ago) my schoolmates didn't go out to the park and get drunk because there was cheap alcohol, they did it because they wanted to get drunk, and didn't need to have much at that age anyway. Ridiculous notion to think a price increase will solve anything.

People who pre-drink at home with the Supermarket deals will just have more to drink when they go out (if the price increase bothered them)

[Lucas DuoFlush]

In my hometown, those £5 pints at pubs and clubs on the main club street have really helped stop violent crime. So much so that certain areas of the city have the highest young male assault rate in the country. Frankly, the policy is a load of shit. The article posted above by some guy doesn't prove much either. Someone went into a club tooled up? With a fucking knife? Sorry but I don't see the root cause of the problem there being alcohol. Maybe its more the fact that someone went to a club with you know, a weapon designed to kill other people? Don't know about anyone else on this board but I've never taking a knife out for a night out, and I regularly (as a 21 year old student) get absolutely wasted. Want to know how many fights I've got into in 5 years of going out? None.

[ashy9]

Here in Perth Oz, going out to drink costs a fortune. Pints can be up to 12 dollars in some bars. Mainly though they are between 8-10 bucks a pint. Even mid strength. Plus buying cartons for consumption at home are also way more expensive than home. They also have much stricter licensing laws, in one club in town they breathalyse you as you go in and if you are over the drink drive limit they refuse you entry! They will cut people off at the drop of a hat and you cannot get cheap shots or triples like you can at home.

Has this stopped anti-social behaviour? Nope! In Northbridge which is the party capital I guess of Perth they still have their issues with fighting, arguing, D&D etc. There has also been a rise over the last few years of house parties that get out of control. Often with local residents in the suburbs calling out the police and getting harrassed. And this is in a country which in my opinion has far more going on for the youth than we did at home when I was growing up. Local YMCA disco on a friday! Wahoo! The fact is that young people, alcoholics, weekend partiers, students, (I could go on), will always get wrecked regardless of how much it costs. I agree with those who say that this is just another stealth tax on the common man really.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see lessor impact by drinking on the NHS. Having fairly recently had to spend a sat night in A&E with my sick Mother who was put to the back of the queue due to drunken/drugged morons getting rowdy there and overloading the staff but there is no evidence so far that this minimum cost will indeed have that benefit.

[JohnHobbes]

I don't know. How do you know how many they are? Just because people are having ale doesn't mean they are 'drinking themselves insensible'. How many do you think it too much for yourself? Half a glass of sherry? Half a pint of shandy? Don't judge everyone by the fact you seemingly can't take your ale. Plenty of people can have a few pints (or more) and have a perfectly reasonable night out. You seem obsessed with the fact that you think people can't drink without acting like arseholes.

And you seem obsessed with missing the point each and every time, and just want to portray me as someone who has a sip of alcohol and is intoxicated. Way to have an argument buddy, deliberately twist what the other is saying and then ignore their point and pretend they've said something else. Bet you are the whizz of your school's debating team.

We shall try once again.

Some people - as in a percentage and not all (thought that was self evident but obviously not) of those going out to drink and enjoy themselves

drink themselves insensible - as in they drink too much, which is clearly more than a 'few pints' and more likely either pre-loading or nearer double figures or mixtures of drinks over a long period without food.

as they think this is how to have a good time - as I clearly made obvious before, most people have a drink whilst having a good time but these kind of people (need to) get drunk to have a good time. Can you see the difference there??

and they lose inhibitions/control/memory and can get in trouble - as in my quote the police force commander supports.

Okay, I've tried and no doubt you'll twist it again.

[wampa1]

I've got a history book showing people pissed on gin in front of the pawn brokers.  Change the gin to White Lightning and the pawn brokers to cash converters and really nothing has changed in 300 years.

Well that makes it okay then. 

[Giovanni]

Education hasn't worked. The industry has pushed for self-regulation and education for years and nothing has changed. Similar to how well the press self-regulated itself quite happily whilst hacking phones, inventing stories, etc...

If education worked then everyone would be happy to leave it alone. It doesn't though.

I'm sorry, but the underlying reason behind why kids get fucked up is not because they can get a litre of vodka for a tenner, it's because they feel there is nothing else worthwhile to do. And that stems from the pathetic education system we have in place currently, and wide spread social welfare cuts further reducing opportunities for kids.

If the government was actually serious about getting kids drinking less and off the streets they would be increasing youth club funding not cutting it to the bare minimum.

This plan is a waste of everyones time and money - like every drug policy.

[gordonchas]

another 'lets beat down the plebs' idea from the tories.

It was the SNP who introduced it in Scotland and Labour are in favour of it, so it's another daft intrusion by politicians and when they're broadly all in favour you can be certain they just want to claim credit for something which will happen naturally.

The reason is there's already been a marked decline in alcohol consumption since 2004 and amongst all age groups.

So, the supposed benefits of a reduction in alcohol usage and binge-drinking should already be seen. If they haven't been, then any politically motivated measure to further reduce consumption won't shown any benefits either.

[xavidub]

It's a stupid policy, and I don't care what paper you pull out that says otherwise.

Yeah, because as a taxi driver once said to Stuart Lee, "You can prove anything with facts"

[Ziltoid]

Bollocks to that, I'm off for a pint this lunchtime

[Red Beret]

If people want to drink, they'll drink and bugger the cost.  Same with ciggies or any illegal substance you care to think of.  The US outright banned the shit and it didn't help - this wont either.

As I said, if the government really meant business they'd address the underlying social causes of binge drinking, but it's far easier for them to take a sledgehammer to the nut representing mere symptoms of a much deep rooted problem than tackling the real issues.

[Red Beret]

History is its own judge.  This sort of thing never works.  You'll get a small reduction in the target group for a brief period and the government will make money out of it.  It really is that simple.

[SP]

History is its own judge.  This sort of thing never works.  You'll get a small reduction in the target group for a brief period and the government will make money out of it.  It really is that simple.

I doubt they will make a profit out of it. The increase in the tax take is not going to be enormous. Given that most alcohol prices won't be affected, it is not going to raise huge amounts of money. The actual cost of enacting and enforcing the measures - plus the increase in smuggling of the goods most affected by the price rise could well end up costing money.

[Red Beret]

I doubt they will make a profit out of it. The increase in the tax take is not going to be enormous. Given that most alcohol prices won't be affected, it is not going to raise huge amounts of money. The actual cost of enacting and enforcing the measures - plus the increase in smuggling of the goods most affected by the price rise could well end up costing money.

I understand where you're coming from but I have to disagree.  What does it cost to pass a law that states supermarkets have to charge a minimum price per unit?  In the great scheme of law creation I doubt the overall cost is significant.

Let me go back to the bog-standard Tesco lager.  4x440ml cans, 2% alcohol, costing £1.00.  I'm no mathematician, but I'm figuring that's 8.8ml of alcohol per can.  One UK unit of alcohol is 10mls.  So those cans contain roughly 3½ units. 

So, if you're going to charge a minimum of 45p a unit then you're talking about a revised cost of £1.58 for that four pack.  Bear in mind that the previous price of £1.00 included VAT, whereas this new price is just the base alcoholic unit price.  So, VAT @ 20% = 32p.

Booze that previously cost £1.00 increases to £1.90 - that's nearly doubling the price - and that's just some bog standard piss-ale that you'd have to have a skip-load full to even get tipsy on.  Try the math on a bottle of Kopperberg - 4.5% volume and already about £2.18 a bottle (the minimum price of the alcohol in one bottle would be £1.17 - that's before VAT, whatever the supermarket lobs on to make a profit etc).

And, once you take into account that the minimum unit price will not stay at 45p, but will continue to rise, then you can see it's only a matter of time before this becomes a nice little earner for the government.  Perhaps not now, but as soon as they realise it's not having the health impact they want, they'll just use it as an option to rake in more cash.