Author Topic: General Election December 12th  (Read 146500 times)

Offline killer-heels

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1320 on: November 14, 2019, 10:12:44 pm »
On one hand Frottage giveth, on the other hand Frottage taketh away.

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1321 on: November 14, 2019, 10:16:09 pm »
https://twitter.com/bbcbreaking/status/1195099594859991040?s=21

Yeah, a government who’s main people admire left wing authoritarians knowing all your internet search history, nothing can go wrong there (not to mention it’d be something someone like long bailey would be in charge of)

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1322 on: November 14, 2019, 10:18:02 pm »
Labour has promised to give every home and business in the UK free full-fibre broadband by 2030, if it wins the general election. ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50427369

Hmmm, that's a promise that assumes they will not only win this election, but the one after too.





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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1323 on: November 14, 2019, 10:19:03 pm »
Labour has promised to give every home and business in the UK free full-fibre broadband by 2030, if it wins the general election. ...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50427369

Hmmm, that's a promise that assumes they will not only win this election, but the one after too.






and the one after that as well!

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1324 on: November 14, 2019, 10:23:28 pm »
and the one after that as well!

For some reason, and though it's a laudible idea, I'm not sure this has actually been thought through particularly well, least of all taking into consideration the plethora of cable companies that now exist and own the infrastructure into peoples homes and businesses other than BT.


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Offline Zeb

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1325 on: November 14, 2019, 10:24:22 pm »
https://twitter.com/bbcbreaking/status/1195099594859991040?s=21

Yeah, a government who’s main people admire left wing authoritarians knowing all your internet search history, nothing can go wrong there (not to mention it’d be something someone like long bailey would be in charge of)

You've dived off deep end there. ;D It's a really good plan (in the idea, detail may get messy) and would help a lot of people. Comes from the universal basic services ideas which McDonnell has picked up on.

Quote
The plan includes nationalising parts of BT - namely its digital network arm Openreach - to create a UK-wide network owned by the government.

A Labour government would compensate shareholders by issuing government bonds. Mr McDonnell gave an absolute guarantee that no pensioner would lose out as a result of the nationalisation.

He said Labour had taken legal advice about the move, including ensuring pension funds with investments in BT are not left out of pocket.

As with other planned Labour nationalisations, he said MPs would set the value of the company at the time of it being taken into public ownership.

Having already announced plans to nationalise water, rail and now broadband, Mr McDonnell said this latest plan was "the limit of our ambitions".

A new entity called British Broadband would run the network, with maintenance - estimated to cost £230m a year - to be covered by the new tax on companies such as Apple and Google.

Lots of problems around it though, not least that it's yet another big policy offer from Labour which involves substantial government time and a long term outlook to when it would be delivered. Do the electorate trust Corbyn and McDonnell and Labour to see it through? Big ask of people's trust.
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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1326 on: November 14, 2019, 10:25:20 pm »
For some reason, and though it's a laudible idea, I'm not sure this has actually been thought through particularly well, least of all taking into consideration the plethora of cable companies that now exist and own the infrastructure into peoples homes and businesses other than BT.
had they done something like free broadband for pensioners and people in low income areas, or just invest more in the infrastructure it’d be a great idea, but this smacks of an idea from people who know they aren’t going to win so just throw anything in there

You've dived off deep end there. ;D It's a really good plan (in the idea, detail may get messy) and would help a lot of people. Comes from the universal basic services ideas which McDonnell has picked up on.

Lots of problems around it though, not least that it's yet another big policy offer from Labour which involves substantial government time and a long term outlook to when it would be delivered. Do the electorate trust Corbyn and McDonnell and Labour to see it through? Big ask of people's trust.
It can be done better, just focus on those who would need this the most based on cost, even if it means they can’t nationalise someone or have to be creative and give companies that do such a scheme tax breaks provided the broadband meets various SLAs to save infrastructure costs, don’t need to give it free to people who don’t need it (which will be most people), your penultimate sentence is very true, but it’s long bailey who’d probably be responsible, as at least McDonnell is a bit competent
« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 10:29:00 pm by Lush is the best medicine... »

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1327 on: November 14, 2019, 10:27:38 pm »
And by being accused of Islamophobia they mean Tom Holland.

Who is in no way an islamaphobe....

So writing a history of the rise of Islam makes you an Islamaphobe? I know there were different interpretationsal views of the Sword if Islam but a scholarly dispute doesn't turn a respected historian into an Iskamaphobe.

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1328 on: November 14, 2019, 10:29:49 pm »
BT's competitors in the Broadband area are going to love that....

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1329 on: November 14, 2019, 10:34:44 pm »
BT's competitors in the Broadband area are going to love that....
at first, but it’s this after a while



https://twitter.com/generalboles/status/1195104168110940161?s=21

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1330 on: November 14, 2019, 10:37:05 pm »
had they done something like free broadband for pensioners and people in low income areas, or just invest more in the infrastructure it’d be a great idea, but this smacks of an idea from people who know they aren’t going to win so just throw anything in there

It does, though the idea has merit so I'm not going to dismiss it out of hand.

I just think it's going to be a nightmare of legislation and litigation from companies effected.

Personally I'm all for it (free www access) and have been for the last 20 years, though I think a better idea would be a free and basic 5g phone network, possibly of limited bandwidth in order to keep running costs manageable and to prevent abuse, and for it to be provided throughout the land, especially since in order just to file stuff, more and more Government and Banking services are requiring web access.

That would cover the pensioners and low income yet also allow other current providers to give bells and whistles and charge for them if you wanted them.

Laying a fibre to so many places outside of towns is just too expensive in comparison to a 5g mast.
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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1331 on: November 14, 2019, 10:38:00 pm »
For some reason, and though it's a laudible idea, I'm not sure this has actually been thought through particularly well, least of all taking into consideration the plethora of cable companies that now exist and own the infrastructure into peoples homes and businesses other than BT.



I think the overwhelming majority is owned by BT still.  It’s leased off them.  Virgin cable isn’t, but I think the rest is...
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1332 on: November 14, 2019, 10:41:47 pm »
I think the overwhelming majority is owned by BT still.  It’s leased off them.  Virgin cable isn’t, but I think the rest is...

The backbone capacity probably yes, but the tails I'm not so sure, especially on new build estates.
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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1333 on: November 14, 2019, 10:42:14 pm »
Real issues of course.  At the moment I can get poor service from my broadband company, get passed off with them and leave.

If you have a nationalised broadband system then I’m stuck with them no matter how crap they were.

And let me tell you, when it was just BT, it was really really crap.

And why should anyone pay for my broadband?  I can pay for my own.  Why are other people expected to pay for me?

Waste of money giving tax breaks to the middle classes.

Give it to those who need it, not to me.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1334 on: November 14, 2019, 10:47:31 pm »


It's now a requirement for businesses to file their VAT online, you can't simply pop it in the post.

And that's just the start of what's going to happen.

Live in a rural community and there are no local banks anymore, you need the web in order to do any banking business.

I think a free basic service to support this should be on offer for the National good.

If you want to watch youtube or stream in super HD or whatever, then sure, you can pay.

I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1335 on: November 14, 2019, 10:47:51 pm »
I think the overwhelming majority is owned by BT still.  It’s leased off them.  Virgin cable isn’t, but I think the rest is...

Yep, it's all open reach.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2019, 10:20:11 am by Red-Soldier »

Offline Zeb

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1336 on: November 14, 2019, 10:48:08 pm »
It can be done better, just focus on those who would need this the most based on cost, even if it means they can’t nationalise someone or have to be creative and give companies that do such a scheme tax breaks provided the broadband meets various SLAs to save infrastructure costs, don’t need to give it free to people who don’t need it (which will be most people), your penultimate sentence is very true, but it’s long bailey who’d probably be responsible, as at least McDonnell is a bit competent

Universal part of it is for a reason, although hear you on the pragmatic argument for targeting. Depends on whether you're aiming for shifting things to a basic level of equality of provision or whether subsidy etc. has better results, although nothing says you can't have both. Details'll get kicked up and down but I think the principle is moving in the right direction even if I have concerns over misselling how quickly change can happen. All the downsides of the problems, none of the upsides of getting it done in time for the next election.
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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1337 on: November 14, 2019, 10:59:12 pm »
I don’t have such an issue with them nationalising open reach and giving it free to those who need it..  but me? Why give me free broadband?

Weird.

Anyway.

I have a bigger concern. Fibre to house broadband.  Maybe that sounds great?

But 5G May well have killed broadband in 5 years whilst we piss £20bn on it.. this is something that really needs to be thought about..
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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1338 on: November 14, 2019, 11:28:34 pm »
had they done something like free broadband for pensioners and people in low income areas, or just invest more in the infrastructure it’d be a great idea, but this smacks of an idea from people who know they aren’t going to win so just throw anything in there

A pledge like you suggest or some kind of commitment to ensure that everyone in the country has access to high-speed broadband seems like it would make more sense than their plan.

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1339 on: November 14, 2019, 11:29:37 pm »
Labour: comes up with a policy that provides a universal good

Centrists: let’s immediately means test this so that a future conservative government can reduce the threshold and render it irrelevant


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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1340 on: November 14, 2019, 11:29:51 pm »
Offering free broadband is more complicated than the cables and the wires.

If you're offering it to non-tech savvy people then you'll also need to provide an army of people that can be called to assist. You'll need an army of engineers to come around to people's houses and sort genuine issues. You need an army of engineers to fix genuine problems, trunk problems, junction problems and you'll need to pay for locations for them to work in and transport to move them from call to call. If they plan to give free broadband in more rural locations, then it'll cost a fortune to set all this up and if not then they'll still need to pay for relay towers and switches.

And has been said, I can pay for my own Broadband thanks very much - so who exactly are they aiming at here?
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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1341 on: November 14, 2019, 11:31:03 pm »
Labour: comes up with a policy that provides a universal good

Centrists: let’s immediately means test this so that a future conservative government can reduce the threshold and render it irrelevant


Bollocks to that.

Let’s not waste billions giving tax breaks to people like me who don’t need them.  Let’s give MORE to those who need it.

This is absurdly simple
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Offline Skeeve

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1342 on: November 14, 2019, 11:33:56 pm »
Labour: comes up with a policy that provides a universal good

Centrists: let’s immediately means test this so that a future conservative government can reduce the threshold and render it irrelevant



Most areas already have high-speed broadband, surely the priority when doing something like this would be ensuring that those who do not already have it due to financial or geographic reasons are catered to first, that will be on a much smaller scale and thus more achievable, while also providing the biggest benefit since it would be providing it to those without it.

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1343 on: November 14, 2019, 11:52:38 pm »
One thing regarding this tech company tax, how do they define what is a tech company, would someone like Nike count for example? Would startups have to pay this? Does any company with an e-commerce site count as a ‘tech’ company, or any company with an in house IT team that does any kind of development work?

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1344 on: November 14, 2019, 11:54:54 pm »
One thing regarding this tech company tax, how do they define what is a tech company, would someone like Nike count for example? Would startups have to pay this? Does any company with an e-commerce site count as a ‘tech’ company, or any company with an in house IT team that does any kind of development work?
They could just say you, you, you and you...

A tech company tax isn’t necessarily a bad idea.. (like the windfall tax) as long as you don’t piss the money up the wall on something you could achieve better and more cheaply a different way.
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Offline Robinred

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1345 on: November 14, 2019, 11:59:38 pm »
It's now a requirement for businesses to file their VAT online, you can't simply pop it in the post.

And that's just the start of what's going to happen.

Live in a rural community and there are no local banks anymore, you need the web in order to do any banking business.

I think a free basic service to support this should be on offer for the National good.

If you want to watch youtube or stream in super HD or whatever, then sure, you can pay.



Agree entirely.

I live in the foothills of the Snowdonia National Park. B.T have converted all the small formerly analogue exchanges to fibre optic. But excepting a few anomalies from trials a decade ago, the cost of doing the same for small housing communities is not feasible. So we have old copper cabling to the house - in my case less than 200 meters from the fully modernised exchange.

For many of my neighbours, with the nearest bank 13 miles away, internet banking, and more pertinently internet shopping, using Asda or Tesco online, and of course Amazon, are the only practical alternatives to a long drive, or carefully planned bus journeys.
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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1346 on: November 14, 2019, 11:59:45 pm »
One thing regarding this tech company tax, how do they define what is a tech company, would someone like Nike count for example? Would startups have to pay this? Does any company with an e-commerce site count as a ‘tech’ company, or any company with an in house IT team that does any kind of development work?

Good point actually, when people think of tech tax they assume its Facebook/Amazon/Google etc, but it really could be a lot wider than that, could apply to where I work very easily given most of our sales are via internet now, not that we actually make much money worldwide anyway!

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1347 on: November 15, 2019, 12:05:00 am »
Good point actually, when people think of tech tax they assume its Facebook/Amazon/Google etc, but it really could be a lot wider than that, could apply to where I work very easily given most of our sales are via internet now, not that we actually make much money worldwide anyway!
yeah that’s kind of my point, you think of those three (which plays well with voters) but the reality is someone like boots would count as a tech company which most would find ridiculous, even if it is technically true

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1348 on: November 15, 2019, 12:05:42 am »
Offering free broadband is more complicated than the cables and the wires.

If you're offering it to non-tech savvy people then you'll also need to provide an army of people that can be called to assist. You'll need an army of engineers to come around to people's houses and sort genuine issues. You need an army of engineers to fix genuine problems, trunk problems, junction problems and you'll need to pay for locations for them to work in and transport to move them from call to call. If they plan to give free broadband in more rural locations, then it'll cost a fortune to set all this up and if not then they'll still need to pay for relay towers and switches.

And has been said, I can pay for my own Broadband thanks very much - so who exactly are they aiming at here?

I know plenty of people who cannot justify the expense of broadband. And my parents, living in rural NI, pay £20 a month for what is essentially 3G. A free baseline broadband makes a lot of sense. People will still pay for better broadband.

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1349 on: November 15, 2019, 12:10:03 am »
Labour: comes up with a policy that provides a universal good

Centrists: let’s immediately means test this so that a future conservative government can reduce the threshold and render it irrelevant



They'll just re-privatise it before anyone notices any difference. Agree with you on the universal good driving this, or which drove the ideas Fisher and McDonnell like to take from, but it's a case which has to be made for things like transport and information. Skipping making it would be a real shame because it lands not only with rural communities but also towns which need those links to prosper in future. Whatever happens with Corbynism, there's a left wing case to build on around extending the idea of universalism and equality of access to beyond the NHS and (if in spirit not action) housing.
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Offline Mutton Geoff

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1350 on: November 15, 2019, 01:26:27 am »
Bollocks to that.

Let’s not waste billions giving tax breaks to people like me who don’t need them.  Let’s give MORE to those who need it.

This is absurdly simple

but then you have the same problem who do you target it towards if they say pensioners well i can afford my broadband so do you means test it , nobody likes doing that and some out of pride will miss out rather than fill in the forms.
i think Andy has a point if you are doing this focus on the rural areas who not only have poor public transport to get to a bank they also cannot adequately do it at all on line
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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1351 on: November 15, 2019, 01:29:44 am »
Agree entirely.

I live in the foothills of the Snowdonia National Park. B.T have converted all the small formerly analogue exchanges to fibre optic. But excepting a few anomalies from trials a decade ago, the cost of doing the same for small housing communities is not feasible. So we have old copper cabling to the house - in my case less than 200 meters from the fully modernised exchange.

For many of my neighbours, with the nearest bank 13 miles away, internet banking, and more pertinently internet shopping, using Asda or Tesco online, and of course Amazon, are the only practical alternatives to a long drive, or carefully planned bus journeys.

great place to live though
A world were Liars and Hypocrites are accepted and rewarded and honest people are derided!
Who voted in this lying corrupt bastard anyway

Offline losCHUNK

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1352 on: November 15, 2019, 02:35:03 am »
Offering free broadband is more complicated than the cables and the wires.

If you're offering it to non-tech savvy people then you'll also need to provide an army of people that can be called to assist. You'll need an army of engineers to come around to people's houses and sort genuine issues. You need an army of engineers to fix genuine problems, trunk problems, junction problems and you'll need to pay for locations for them to work in and transport to move them from call to call. If they plan to give free broadband in more rural locations, then it'll cost a fortune to set all this up and if not then they'll still need to pay for relay towers and switches.

And has been said, I can pay for my own Broadband thanks very much - so who exactly are they aiming at here?

When I heard it on the news I was kinda hoping it would be some kind of municipal internet, heard good things about its adoption in other countries and only makes sense.  If it's genuinely free internet then like you say, it's not as easy or cheap and sounds more like someone blerting nonsense without thinking it through.

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1353 on: November 15, 2019, 06:51:51 am »

but then you have the same problem who do you target it towards if they say pensioners well i can afford my broadband so do you means test it , nobody likes doing that and some out of pride will miss out rather than fill in the forms.
i think Andy has a point if you are doing this focus on the rural areas who not only have poor public transport to get to a bank they also cannot adequately do it at all on line
And I don’t necessarily disagree there.

But....

Fibre to house in rural areas would be an absurd cost. Over £20bn. All the easy places have already been done.

I suspect that a much cheaper way of doing this will arrive with 5G. Compel mobile phone companies to provide a much higher coverage.  5G might well have killed by 2030 anyway (I think there’s a real chance of this).

With the money needed to buy open reach (£10bn?? More??) plus the £20bn to do fibre to house (which maybe irrelevant by 2030) it seems like a huge amount of money for something we may end up not needing.

Privatise open reach?  Yes, that probably makes sense it has an almost total monopoly (and probably has to) so like network rail it probably fits amongst state owned assets best.

But, I can think of way better ways of using a windfall tax of internet based mega companies (good idea) and I can think of cheaper ways of delivering super fast internet, and I can think of way better ways of spending money than giving it to me.

Still, it’s a headline grabbing policy that seems popular on the face of it, and it does recognise the importance of good infrastructure
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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1354 on: November 15, 2019, 06:59:33 am »
Is Royal Mail still being brought back into public ownership if Labour win?

Now that would be a waste of money.

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1355 on: November 15, 2019, 07:16:36 am »
And I don’t necessarily disagree there.

But....

Fibre to house in rural areas would be an absurd cost. Over £20bn. All the easy places have already been done.

I suspect that a much cheaper way of doing this will arrive with 5G. Compel mobile phone companies to provide a much higher coverage.  5G might well have killed by 2030 anyway (I think there’s a real chance of this).

With the money needed to buy open reach (£10bn?? More??) plus the £20bn to do fibre to house (which maybe irrelevant by 2030) it seems like a huge amount of money for something we may end up not needing.

Privatise open reach?  Yes, that probably makes sense it has an almost total monopoly (and probably has to) so like network rail it probably fits amongst state owned assets best.

But, I can think of way better ways of using a windfall tax of internet based mega companies (good idea) and I can think of cheaper ways of delivering super fast internet, and I can think of way better ways of spending money than giving it to me.

Still, it’s a headline grabbing policy that seems popular on the face of it, and it does recognise the importance of good infrastructure

I've not done much reading on 5G specifically, but 4G/LTE/Wimax and all the other wireless options generally don't scale well. They are good for phones but would be crippled if everything that went over the regular cabled phone network went over it instead.

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1356 on: November 15, 2019, 07:19:17 am »
I've not done much reading on 5G specifically, but 4G/LTE/Wimax and all the other wireless options generally don't scale well. They are good for phones but would be crippled if everything that went over the regular cabled phone network went over it instead.
I think we will find this exactly where 5G is heading us though....  whatever government is in power.
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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1357 on: November 15, 2019, 07:24:14 am »
Can I just say though...

I like the idea of windfall taxes on these companies that pay almost no tax.  It seems the easiest way of making them pay tax without spending billions to close loopholes. They aren’t going to bugger off and leave and they can’t wriggle out of them by moving their HQ elsewhere

I also like the idea of improving infrastructure. I’m just thinking that it’s 15 years too late and we should probably move on the the next generation of tech and that this should be free to people who can afford it. It certainly shouldn’t be free to banks and multinationals ..
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Offline Elmo!

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1358 on: November 15, 2019, 07:25:42 am »
Can I just say though...

I like the idea of windfall taxes on these companies that pay almost no tax.  It seems the easiest way of making them pay tax without spending billions to close loopholes. They aren’t going to bugger off and leave and they can’t wriggle out of them by moving their HQ elsewhere

I also like the idea of improving infrastructure. I’m just thinking that it’s 15 years too late and we should probably move on the the next generation of tech and that this should be free to people who can afford it. It certainly shouldn’t be free to banks and multinationals ..

Banks and Multinationals won't be using the governments shitty free broadband.  :lmao :lmao

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Re: General Election December 12th
« Reply #1359 on: November 15, 2019, 07:50:11 am »
Banks and Multinationals won't be using the governments shitty free broadband.  :lmao :lmao

True, although with a windfall tax they would effectively fund same for the rest of the country.