Topic: Thread for Discussion on Trans Rights (*)

[WhoHe]

As I said earlier mens jails would empty considerably and not necessarily because of the access or whatever you want to call it to women but simply because they are much much safer jails - meaning a cushier time in jail.

If this self ID becomes law I will guarantee that the numbers locked up between men and woman will alter considerably and in my opinion not for the better.

Whoever said men get raped in jail "all the time" is talking absolute shit, they dont, violence/bullying/coercion are far bigger issues.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The idea that as a man, who has decided they want to rape a woman, is going to assess their various options and decide that their best option to rape someone is to pretend they are a woman for 3 months in order to get a GRC to be recognised as a woman, so that they can enter a womens toilet, which no one was goign to stop them entering anyway, is fanciful. There are far easier options for them (sadly).

if you have self ID then they don’t need to bother trying to get a GRC

[Elmo!]

if you have self ID then they don’t need to bother trying to get a GRC

Won't need to bother for what though? It isn't actually illegal for a man to enter a womens toilet or vice versa.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Won't need to bother for what though? It isn't actually illegal for a man to enter a womens toilet or vice versa.

to get access to women’s spaces like shelters etc

[Elmo!]

to get access to women’s spaces like shelters etc

The idea of the proposals isn't that everyone can just change their gender as and when they want to. As I said earlier, the Scottish proposals are to reduce the timeframe and to reduce the medical requirement.

Their seems to be this myth that the proposals are that there will be a self ID and anyone can just change their gender on a whim whenever they want - that is not the case.

It's also important to not conflate 2 different issues - the legal arguments, and the moral argument. If someone said to me they wanted to identify as a woman, I would respect that and use the right pronouns, I wouldn't tell them I would have to wait until they had their GRC.

[vblfc]

Surely this issue of invading in women's spaces isn't a real trans issues?  Rather it's a not real trans gender issue.  We can't hold the trans community accountable for that in any way, except that they exist.   

[Something Worse]

Surely this issue of invading in women's spaces isn't a real trans issues?  Rather it's a not real trans gender issue.  We can't hold the trans community accountable for that in any way, except that they exist.

It's a straw man people use to attack a community that makes them uncomfortable, for the most part.

Not gonna say that everyone in this thread using it is of that mindset, but the vast majority of people out there are.

[J_Kopite]

Could you provide any statistics on how many transgender prisoners are there that would want to be moved to women's prisons? What is the relative risk of this type of sexual violence compared to other violence etc taking place in prisons?

I mean trans people are a very small percentage of overall population. Yet some like to make it out that this will lead to some epidemic of men (for some reason only men) identifying as women to get in women's washrooms/ prisons etc. for sexual pleasure. Yet I have seen very little data to show that this is a major problem.
 

Its already happened, numerous times, why the fuck is that not enough? Better still, how many times would be enough? The point I'm making is that it makes predators have easier access to vulnerable women.

The idea that as a man, who has decided they want to rape a woman, is going to assess their various options and decide that their best option to rape someone is to pretend they are a woman for 3 months in order to get a GRC to be recognised as a woman, so that they can enter a womens toilet, which no one was goign to stop them entering anyway, is fanciful. There are far easier options for them (sadly).

As easy as - "What the fuck are you doing here? Get out or I'll call the police?", "I identify as a woman, dont misgender me, Im legally allowed to use this facility, that's a hate crime TERF."

[J_Kopite]

Can't help but notice two of my earlier questions have remained unanswered ...if anyone is feeling up to it:

Define "woman" without using the word "woman" in the definition.

What does "living as a woman" mean? (Avoid using gender stereotypes on this one please)

[Snail]

Can't help but notice two of my earlier questions have remained unanswered ...if anyone is feeling up to it:

Define "woman" without using the word "woman" in the definition.

What does "living as a woman" mean? (Avoid using gender stereotypes on this one please)

With the greatest of respect, you’re doing a lot of speaking on behalf of women without actually being a woman. I didn’t answer your question about “what makes a woman” earlier because I didn’t want to bicker but for the record, I’m an intersectional feminist. That’s a woman.

[Elmo!]

What does "living as a woman" mean? (Avoid using gender stereotypes on this one please)

The bill is only in consultation so all the details so these details I don't think have been fully fleshed out but I would have thought this was pretty obvious. Have you been identifying as a woman to your family, friends and peers? That would be enough for me to be living as a woman.

[J_Kopite]

The bill is only in consultation so all the details so these details I don't think have been fully fleshed out but I would have thought this was pretty obvious. Have you been identifying as a woman to your family, friends and peers? That would be enough for me to be living as a woman.

What is "identifying as a woman" though? If it's obvious you should be able to tell me

[Elmo!]

What is "identifying as a woman" though? If it's obvious you should be able to tell me

Why should I be able to tell you?

As a cis man I'm not going to pretend I understand the concept of feeling like I was a different gender to what I was assigned at birth but if a friend of mine came to me and says I identify as a woman and want me to refer to them using she/her etc, I would respect that and use those pronouns, and I would say she is now identifying as a woman.

If they do that for 3 months they can make an application for a GRC.

[SP]

Allowing dangerous men in women's prisons or other women's only spaces would:

1. Make better
2. Make worse

The occurrence of rape?

That case is a clear failure of prison management. Putting a predatory sexual predator in any prison general population should not happen. If the prison is competent it is not an instructive example.

[J_Kopite]

Why should I be able to tell you?

As a cis man I'm not going to pretend I understand the concept of feeling like I was a different gender to what I was assigned at birth but if a friend of mine came to me and says I identify as a woman and want me to refer to them using she/her etc, I would respect that and use those pronouns, and I would say she is now identifying as a woman.

If they do that for 3 months they can make an application for a GRC.

Well it seems quite important in discussing the rights of women or whether trans women are women or not.

[Elmo!]

Well it seems quite important in discussing the rights of women or whether trans women are women or not.

Honestly I wish we had separate terms for identifying different sexes and different genders, rather than using the words men and women for both. It would make things a lot easier.

I think it would make the debate a lot easier if you separate out the fundamentals - like whether sex and gender are really two different things or whether you believe a man should be able to decide to identify as a woman or vice versa - from the specific issues like prisons, competing in sports and toilets. You keep jumping between the 2 and it makies it difficult to have a sensible debate.

[ianburns252]

I get where J_Kopite is coming from with his question re: what defines a woman.

It is clearly not question with an easy answer but, for those of us who aren't, having some sort of tangible definition to work with would help with discussing and engaging with the topic of transgender rights and so on.

Sian - I ask this as a genuine question, how does being an intersectional feminist make you a woman? My (very limited) understanding is that it refers to a split from what is called white feminism and tries to look at the concept of feminism from a multitude of standpoints relating to race, background, experiences etc. My reading of that would be that anyone could be an intersectional feminist as it relates more to beliefs - but I could be completely off base here.

I know a number of trans people (both male and female) and a different stages (if that is the right word) of transitioning - some have fully transitioned, some would be described as the early stages where they are identifying but not had an surgery to change things biologically. I can't say I have ever taken issue with their identification and if someone identifies as male or female that is their business, not mine.

It is, however, something that for the wider population will be a relatively new concept (in that there is more visibility these days) and many will not fully understand the various elements and conditions (environmental, psychological, internal and external loci) that will lead to someone making the realisation and taking the steps down that path and it will, possibly, be scary for them and so having things defined as clearly and easily to understand as they can possibly be would seem, to me, a good way of helping people to adapt their thinking to the current landscape.

[J_Kopite]

I don't think it's a difficult question to answer at all Ian! Anyway with that said, I've probably posted enough today and don't want to dominate the thread. I think everyone here is arguing in good faith which is not the case on many other online platforms, and is what I like about RAWK. I wish everyone well even if we disagree.

[24/7]

So I would like to just start off by apologising to the moderators.

Credit where it's due, that's a great OP. And I for my part apologise for leaping all over you like a bad pair of smelly trabs.

I have no specific viewpoint on the subject other than to say that people should have the right to identify however they feel, without fear of punishment or prejudice. Thanks for taking this subject into a dedicated space. Hope the thread delivers what you seek - non toxic rational debate.

Rest assured too that the moderation of this thread shall be no less attentive than any other - in fact, I just starred it (*), meaning the bar was just raised in terms of quality and tolerance levels.

Although, as you rightly observed, we do this in our spare time and there are already a few very active threads on quite sensitive matters - so if you think something genuinely stinks and you think someone might not be following the rules or even ethos of this site (which we proudly and loudly proclaim as inclusive, unless you're a fuckin bad man* wum of course), then report it and we'll look at it.

We do though rely on a degree of self-moderation and self-censure.........something I hope a couple of people already in this thread will take to heart


* that was a typo of 'manc' but in this context it seems equally apt

[24/7]

So, for those who might not know, (*) means this thread is considered particularly sensitive in its subject matter. Which means we tend to cut a little less slack on any muppetry 

[TepidT2O]

So, for those who might not know, (*) means this thread is considered particularly sensitive in its subject matter. Which means we tend to cut a little less slack on any muppetry 

Good point...

Whatever people’s views, I think we can all agree that being transgender is incredibly difficult in our society.  And that as a fair and tolerant society we can and should treat people with respect and dignity due to each and every individual. Words said without thought could be painful to members or their friends and family.

[Dench57]

The idea that as a man, who has decided they want to rape a woman, is going to assess their various options and decide that their best option to rape someone is to pretend they are a woman for 3 months in order to get a GRC to be recognised as a woman, so that they can enter a womens toilet, which no one was goign to stop them entering anyway, is fanciful. There are far easier options for them (sadly).

Exactly. Much easier to get together with your mate and spike two women’s drinks, as happened to me and my mate when we were 18. I’ve got a non-binary mate I went to school with and they have to deal with people assuming they’re somehow dangerous and it’s absolutely awful.

Agree with both these.

So often those that try to steer the trans debate in the direction of "protecting women's rights" are strangely silent on the much, much wider problem of domestic/sexual violence committed against women by cis men.  Like how 90% of all female homicide victims in England and Wales are murdered by men. And approximately half of those are murdered by a partner or ex partner. Like how in Northern Ireland any Tom Dick and Harry can just walk into a courtroom where a rape trial is taking place, and see the victim and hear her name being said. Do they want to talk about that? Or do they want to spend all their energy getting worked up over where a tiny minority of people want to shit?

[ianburns252]

I don't think it's a difficult question to answer at all Ian! Anyway with that said, I've probably posted enough today and don't want to dominate the thread. I think everyone here is arguing in good faith which is not the case on many other online platforms, and is what I like about RAWK. I wish everyone well even if we disagree.

Apologies if I've misinterpreted from above.

My reason for thinking it is a difficult question is that clearly we are beyond the simply biological definition i.e. XX chromosomes, ovaries, uterus etc. etc.

There are, I'd say. psychological elements i.e. the feeling of being in the wrong body, societal elements - many people across many different strands of society will have different opinions on what makes one a woman and many, many more.

There will be differing opinions on at what point you are defined as a woman - some will say that it is purely biological, some will say it requires behavioural element and I can't speak for anyone else.

It seems, to me, that it is difficult to get a single definition that works for everyone and that is part of the problem.

[Mutton Geoff]

Good point...

Whatever people’s views, I think we can all agree that being transgender is incredibly difficult in our society.  And that as a fair and tolerant society we can and should treat people with respect and dignity due to each and every individual. Words said without thought could be painful to members or their friends and family.

Isnt this a case of better education more intelligent information and natural evolution will eventually make this a non factor in future societies , may be the wrong example but in my childhood and just beyond being Gay was a crime and society in general failed to grasp the complexities of being gay in a staunchly hetro society! Now it is a totally different case for the majority within society through in my opinion a society better informed and with it greater tolerance so that people can be exactly what they want to be!
I can see in perhaps the next decade or two this will not be a major issue and with it far less scaremongering with all the negativity it contains!
One final point i cant claim to understand the complexities of these issues myself but i will be reading and educating myself to better understand it, but would it not be easier to discard all these labels and just regard all of us in society as a person? 
i just find in general labelling people creates more divisions than solutions

[J-Mc-]

I’ve got a very good friend there, a woman who identifies as a man, feels like a man and suffers with body dismorphia (I think that’s what it’s called,) as a result.

One of the best mates i’ve ever had, just because he wants to be a man doesn’t mean it’s for underlying, pervy and/or malicious reasons, it’s because he wants to feel comfortable in his own skin and not have to wear a bodysuit under his clothes just to feel somewhat comfortable.

Let people be happy in their own skin, not everyone wants to do it just to get at the opposite sex.

[Sheer Magnetism]

It seems, to me, that it is difficult to get a single definition that works for everyone and that is part of the problem.

Well yeah, that is a significant part of the problem. There isn't even agreement within the trans community as to who should be able to identify as trans. Should gender dysphoria be required for treatment? Should non-binary people be regarded as trans? At what age is it acceptable for the medical system to assist with transitioning? How much effort should people have to show before they can be unequivocably regarded as being the opposite gender? All of these are huge hot button subjects and the subject of some vicious online wars right now even between people who are trans themselves.

I think a lot of people, maybe even most in the UK in 2020 are accepting enough that they're willing to respect someone's pronouns and treat them how they want to be identified in a general sense. It's the nitty gritty where things start getting tricky. The vast majority of trans women don't transition because they want to intrude on women's spaces. But it only takes a small number to have a massively damaging effect. Is that a price worth paying? I don't know how I can begin to express an opinion on that but it's one of many questions we as a society may well be thinking about for a while.

[WillG.LFC]

No problem with it but it should also have its restrictions for things such as sport where there is a clear biological advantage. Fallon fox (think that was the name) fought in the ufc as a woman and broke another womans skull. Surely that can't be right or fair

[Alan_X]

I’ve got a very good friend there, a woman who identifies as a man, feels like a man and suffers with body dismorphia (I think that’s what it’s called,) as a result.

One of the best mates i’ve ever had, just because he wants to be a man doesn’t mean it’s for underlying, pervy and/or malicious reasons, it’s because he wants to feel comfortable in his own skin and not have to wear a bodysuit under his clothes just to feel somewhat comfortable.

Let people be happy in their own skin, not everyone wants to do it just to get at the opposite sex.

Side issue but have they been formally diagnosed with BDD? Body Dismorphic Disorder is a specific condition where there is an inability to actually recognise what you look like to others. I'm asking because it's a condition I'm familiar with. My son has suffered with it for 25 years now.

To explain my son's condition. He is a young man who looks perfectly normal to anyone he meets. In his mind he sees a horribly distorted version of himself where any minor defect is exagerated. Many people with BDD have repeated cosmetic surgeries but the accepted treatment is not to carry out corrective surgery because the problem is psychological, not physical. Fortunately my son has not resorted to cosmetic surgery - he recognises it's pointless - but it has had a debilitating impact on his life. The analogy to your friend's condition would be if he was badly disfigured and wanted to get rid of the disfigurment.

Your friend's condition seems to be best described as Gender Dysphoria:

Gender dysphoria is the feeling of distress or discomfort because of the difference between a person’s gender (assigned at birth) and their gender identity.  This applies to both males who are assigned a female gender at birth and females who were assigned the male gender at birth.  People with gender dysphoria are normally transgender.  However, there are cases of non-binary gender identities in which gender dysphoria is present.

If they had Body Dismorphia the treatment would be something like Cognitive Behaviour Therapy to help them accept that their birth body/gender is who they are. Whereas with Gender Dysphoria the treatment would be to help them re-identify and that might include surgery.

As I say, it's a side issue but an important one.

[redmark]

This is a discussion I generally keep out of (though do a fair bit of reading), because I was brought up by a socialist feminist, who at times was involved with radical feminist groups, and am aware that some of that background seems now to be in territory others would describe as 'TERFs'. We also at one point shared a house with a trans woman (called Barbara; this is the mid-late 1970s, which was essentially a different planet) and I probably knew more lesbians at the time than was common. All while having an extended family that had a social and political outlook ranging all the way from Thatcherism to outright fascism...

Seeing arguments flare up on social media obviously highlights some extremes of the debate, but my 'gut feel' on the tone and relative 'tolerance' (a useful barometer when it comes to several elements of the radical left in general) has pushed me away from some of the hardline trans activists. I don't see how 'A Womans Place' can be described as a hate group, and I think there is some validity in some of the more thoughtful fears amongst lesbian groups in particular of increasing numbers of girls and young women being pressured (?) into diagnoses of gender dysphoria when they might infact just be 'butch lesbians'.

Mostly though, I strongly dislike identity politics, because it inevitably fragments into ever increasing numbers of competing, overlapping and (sometimes) barely relevant 'differences' when I think effective political and social change comes from solidarity and cooperation.

But, yeah. I'm a middle aged (cis) white man.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Seeing arguments flare up on social media obviously highlights some extremes of the debate, but my 'gut feel' on the tone and relative 'tolerance' (a useful barometer when it comes to several elements of the radical left in general) has pushed me away from some of the hardline trans activists. I don't see how 'A Womans Place' can be described as a hate group, and I think there is some validity in some of the more thoughtful fears amongst lesbian groups in particular of increasing numbers of girls and young women being pressured (?) into diagnoses of gender dysphoria when they might infact just be 'butch lesbians'.

its the crying of ‘bigot’,’transphobe’ etc directed at people who don’t fully buy their worldview and have legitimate areas of concern (tavistock, womens place, trans women competing in men’s sports as three examples), don’t think a lot of them realise that their approach does far more harm than good in the outside world (as many will equate their view to the trans community at large), despite how good they may feel amongst themselves acting in that manner

[whiteboots]

I have been a Trustee of a Trans Charity so have some practical insight into this.

The overwhelming majority of T men and women simply wish to live their lives in peaceful anonymity. There will be some amongst you that you would never even imagine were T.

Currently, when someone goes to the Doctor wanting to transition there is no “test”. They are taken at their word. No-one undertakes this lightly. The proposed legislative changes were prompted by Doctors who believed that their time was being wasted.

There is an issue about safe spaces, particularly for women, which can be overcome, but needs to be done sensitively. It is true that the T Political arm have put their own rights ahead of the legitimate concerns of the broader community.

No-one transitions for the purposes of sexually abusing others. Currently there are those, a tiny minority, who may seek to use what amounts to disguise, for sexual purposes. The law deals with that now.

Underneath all this is a sub-conscious, and natural, desire to see the world in a binary way. Shifting that ever so slightly, is not a big deal.

[TepidT2O]

Entirely sensible

[24/7]

Quick diversion and a possibly little-known fact.

The GP character in The League of Gentleman (played wonderfully by Steve Pemberton) is based on a real GP, Dr John Randall, who was 'helping' a patient transition, Julia Grant - looks like it was in the 70s.

The apparent gross exaggeration is something you'd expect in a caricature, right?

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/PMUBoa0URlY" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/PMUBoa0URlY</a>

Wrong.

One of the fans of the show took the time to splice in footage from the original documentary and it highlights well the attitude of certain elements of society to trans people back then.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/OLGZuOqiJfE" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/OLGZuOqiJfE</a>

(Okay, I've tried 10 times now to embed this one - if it's not working, here's the effin link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLGZuOqiJfE)

I'm glad to see the post below indicating that things have moved on somewhat......

[whiteboots]

Julia Grant, and then Stephanie Lloyd, were ground breaking, but controversial figures in the T community.

Ironically the Coronavirus pandemic has been a good thing for this debate as it has taken the heat, and pace, out of it.

Winning hearts and minds is as important as securing the right legislation.

[Red_Bear]

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what self ID actually means. Effectively, the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) to allow self ID do not mean that anyone can just say that they're a man / woman and must be accepted as such in all situations. They simply mean that instead of having to have 2 doctors letters (which can cost a lot of money, many GPs and specialists charge upwards of £50 to fill in a simple form) - and research has consistently shown that trans people have higher rates of unemployment and underemployment than cis people - the trans person can self-declare their gender. This is still a legal document; it's done as a statutory declaration, and it's an offence to make a false stat dec.

This misunderstanding has been spread by certain transphobic groups, as it suits their agenda for people to believe that it means that anyone can simply say one day that they're a woman and that everyone must accept it, as this plays into people's fears especially around toilets.

By the way, there is no law in the UK that says certain only people can use the facilities behind a certain symbol on the door - it's just a societal convention. However, we DO have laws against people assaulting and attacking people, and these apply regardless of the gender of the person or the sign on the door.

Also, if a cis het man wanted to disguise themselves in order to attack a woman in the toilets, rather than claim to be a woman and make a false legal declaration it would be much easier for them to put on some overalls and pretend to be the cleaner, or a maintenance person. And given how many cis het men react when asked to hold their partner's handbag - holding it out in front of them as if it's about to bite them - I can't see many of them wanting to pretend to be a trans woman in order to enter the women's toilets!

Furthermore, why should we discriminate against and place hurdles in front of the trans community because of the behaviour of a small number of people who aren't even part of the community? That's not a good way to make laws!

In terms of refuges etc, a woman doesn't automatically have the right to enter one. An individual risk assessment is carried out on everyone to ensure that they won't be a danger to any of the other residents, who are also very vulnerable. Don't forget, women in same-sex relationships can also be victims (and thus perpetrators) of domestic violence - shelters are already aware of those possible issues as well. The reason that all those organisations in Scotland are happy to support the proposals is because they are already trans inclusive and have not found any problems in this.

As far as trans women competing in sports is concerned, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) has had trans inclusion policies since 2003 - the Stockholm Consensus, and many other sports follow these rules also. Since then, there have been 4 Olympic Games - so if it really was a massive advantage in being a trans woman competing in women's sport then don't you think that at least one medal would have been won by a trans woman?!

Right, that's become quite a long and heavy post, so I'll stop there for now - but I might come back to it later!

[Something Worse]

There seems to be some misunderstanding about what self ID actually means. Effectively, the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) to allow self ID do not mean that anyone can just say that they're a man / woman and must be accepted as such in all situations. They simply mean that instead of having to have 2 doctors letters (which can cost a lot of money, many GPs and specialists charge upwards of £50 to fill in a simple form) - and research has consistently shown that trans people have higher rates of unemployment and underemployment than cis people - the trans person can self-declare their gender. This is still a legal document; it's done as a statutory declaration, and it's an offence to make a false stat dec.

This misunderstanding has been spread by certain transphobic groups, as it suits their agenda for people to believe that it means that anyone can simply say one day that they're a woman and that everyone must accept it, as this plays into people's fears especially around toilets.

By the way, there is no law in the UK that says certain only people can use the facilities behind a certain symbol on the door - it's just a societal convention. However, we DO have laws against people assaulting and attacking people, and these apply regardless of the gender of the person or the sign on the door.

Also, if a cis het man wanted to disguise themselves in order to attack a woman in the toilets, rather than claim to be a woman and make a false legal declaration it would be much easier for them to put on some overalls and pretend to be the cleaner, or a maintenance person. And given how many cis het men react when asked to hold their partner's handbag - holding it out in front of them as if it's about to bite them - I can't see many of them wanting to pretend to be a trans woman in order to enter the women's toilets!

Furthermore, why should we discriminate against and place hurdles in front of the trans community because of the behaviour of a small number of people who aren't even part of the community? That's not a good way to make laws!

In terms of refuges etc, a woman doesn't automatically have the right to enter one. An individual risk assessment is carried out on everyone to ensure that they won't be a danger to any of the other residents, who are also very vulnerable. Don't forget, women in same-sex relationships can also be victims (and thus perpetrators) of domestic violence - shelters are already of those possible issues as well. The reason that all those organisations in Scotland are happy to support the proposals is because they are already trans inclusive and have not found any problems in this.

As far as trans women competing in sports is concerned, the International Olympic Committee (IOC) has had trans inclusion policies since 2003 - the Stockholm Consensus, and many other sports follow these rules also. Since then, there have been 4 Olympic Games - so if it really was a massive advantage in being a trans woman competing in women's sport then don't you think that at least one medal would have been won by a trans woman?!

Right, that's become quite a long and heavy post, so I'll stop there for now - but I might come back to it later!

Fantastic post

[TepidT2O]

This is a very interesting thread.

[Red_Bear]

All you need to do is look at reply 6 in this thread.

This argument falls down in that firstly, Karen White is a trans woman, not a man pretending to be a woman. What she did was clearly despicable, but this is a failing of the risk assessment that put her in a facility such as that - by which I don't mean a women's prison, I mean one where she had access to other prisoners in that way.

Secondly, there are people who commit awful crimes from all demographics of society, but we shouldn't use this as a reason to deny rights to all of that group of people.

[Snail]

Spot on, Red_Bear.

[Son of Spion]

This is a very interesting thread.

It is.

I used to post elsewhere on this topic but eventually grew tired of the politics and bigotry on show, so stopped doing so.

I see things more from a basic, human angle, so the politics go over my head. I just see people as human beings, and I believe all human beings deserve the same rights and respect.

I've known a number of trans people in my time. My partner had a trans woman in her family until she tragically died last year. I know the abuse, violence and discrimination she suffered and how many people turned their backs on her. The son of a good friend of mine is also trans too.

I also used to attend a trans group in a counselling capacity, so certainly got to hear about the difficulties those in that community face. Each person could write a very compelling book on their lives if they had mind to do so. Such depth of experience, both in external life experience and inner, emotional experience. Seriously interesting people to listen to and learn from.

I also attended a fantastic workshop on the subject once. It was run by a Nun and a middle aged fella. They came to the charity I counselled at. It was an excellent half day. I've done lots of training days on various subjects and they've always been run by people who have had the issues they are talking about. So, a day on self-harm would be hosted by a person who had personally gone through it themselves. Same with depression, anxiety, PTSD etc...

With the above in mind I was a little surprised that this wasn't the case with this particular training day / workshop and I felt it might have been a missed opportunity. I already knew a fair bit on the subject, but learned a lot more during the talk ... then about three quarters of the way through, both revealed that they were actually trans. The Nun was born Intersex but brought up as a boy by her parents, but always identified as female herself. The guy was born into a female body but always believed he was male. The rest of the workshop was an amazingly interesting conversation with both about their personal journeys.

It's a complex subject, but I just see human beings who have gone through so much, have such incredible depth of experience and have had to learn to be very tough in order to survive. Most of us take it for granted that our very existence is not questioned on a daily basis. Most of us can walk down the street without worrying about being attacked just for being who we are. Most of us don't have to watch as others discuss whether we should have the same rights as everyone else or not.

I've never met a trans person who wasn't interesting, who wasn't sensitive and caring, but who also wasn't as tough as a Mersey docker and who hasn't got a life story they could write a book with. That might sound a little cliché and even a bit stereotypical in an unintentional way, but it's just my personal observation and experience.