Topic: Survivors: Talk about it, share it, we'll try to help

[the invisible man]

well done jo... tough trip mate.....

but why is that blue gate still there.... don't they realise just how much angst it causes every day.... cant they just paint it black or  change it to a more modern type exit..... as you say jo, a tree and plain garden would be much better.....

[Jo S]

I know mate you can still see the old stairwells to the upper tiers where some of the lads got pulled up from the crush. The place is truly horrid 

Glad I went though, I wanted to know how it felt.

[Maggie May]

I went back yesterday, don't know why now. Never thought I would ever be able to set foot near that death trap again. But some thing was just pulling me there. It was hell, just like being in a time warp. The shithole needs to be demolished and a garden of tranquility put there.

Maybe once the anger dissipates I'll feel better, at least I got to say sorry to our ninety six, sorry for going home and leaving them behind.

Well I can only speculate.  No offence intended.

Perhaps, given HIPs it might have been the right time for you to face your demons for the past 24 years.  To lay beautiful flowers and to cry. Nothing wrong with that.  But you were among those who were staunch, who never flinched and stood by the 96 and faught for the cause for all those long years. You never left them behind mate.  They have always been with you.  Bless you.

[24/7]

Well I can only speculate.  No offence intended.

Perhaps, given HIPs it might have been the right time for you to face your demons for the past 24 years.  To lay beautiful flowers and to cry. Nothing wrong with that.  But you were among those who were staunch, who never flinched and stood by the 96 and faught for the cause for all those long years. You never left them behind mate.  They have always been with you.  Bless you.

Indeed - and you owe no one any apologies Jo, no-one, not one person. We're right there with you, brother.

[Andy G]

God Bless you Joe.  As others have stated, you have nothing to be sorry for.  The normal order of life is that you are angry as a teen/young adult, getting progressively more accepting as you get older and you realise more that you cannot beat the establishment.  We are part of small group who have got increasingly angry over the past 25 years, and we have educated others and got more people increasingly angry as they age, to a point where we are strong enough to defeat the establishment.  Of that we should be proud.  We have let no-one down.  Saying that, I too feel the guilt, I know there is no logic to it, but it is still there.

[the invisible man]

Well I can only speculate.  No offence intended.

Perhaps, given HIPs it might have been the right time for you to face your demons for the past 24 years.  To lay beautiful flowers and to cry. Nothing wrong with that.  But you were among those who were staunch, who never flinched and stood by the 96 and faught for the cause for all those long years. You never left them behind mate.  They have always been with you.  Bless you.

hiya maggie .... long time my friend....xxx ynwa

[Maggie May]

hiya maggie .... long time my friend....xxx ynwa

Hiya lovely mate .... too bloody long .... hope you are well.  With love xxxx ynwa

[Jo S]

Thanks  everyone..... Just don't know what I would do without my RAWK family at times.....

Love you all.   

[Maggie May]

Thanks  everyone..... Just don't know what I would do without my RAWK family at times.....

Love you all.   

I think you were incredibly brave to do what you did.  To go anywhere near that awful place must have required an enormous amount of resolve and determination.  But you had the strength and courage to return to honour the 96.  True scouse guts.  Red roses.  You did them proud.

[mikem]

I think like most survivors I find it difficult to talk to anyone about what happened on 15/4/89 so this is probably the best place for me to get this off my chest and this is my first post as a long time lurker.

I arrived early on the day as I had lift.  I always liked to arrive early at the games anyway so that I could get a good spot behind the goal.  I stood in the same place as I stood in 88 in pen 4 behind one of the barriers.  This year was noticeably different though.  It was much tighter with little room to move and I could see that there was plenty of space in the adjacent pen.  I remember thinking that if it was going to be like this I would move at half time, something  I have never done before.

Then the surge came. I don’t remember seeing any of the game.  I was pinned against the barrier and had to fight with all of my strength to push myself back from the barrier to avoid getting crushed. I’m not sure how long I was pinned against the barrier but suddenly there was a brief respite.  I ducked down below the barrier, a stupid thing to do in hindsight, but I was no longer being crushed.  I was now under the barrier in between everyone’s legs in front of and behind the barrier. There must have been another surge forward as I vaguely remember getting up from where I was, not sure how, on to the top of the barrier from where I was able to climb over the fence in to the narrow pen that separated the two pens leading to the pitch.

After that it was just blur.  I was exhausted.  People all over the place, the police in a line across the pitch, an overwhelming thirst.   I remember talking to a copper outside the ground after the game discussing the number of people that died.

I had to wait for my lift home and all I can remember from that is just lying down on the back seat of the car all of the way home to London.  What I hadn’t realised is that during the time I was pinned against the barrier it had rubbed some of the skin off my waist and the skin was now black as if it had been burned and I was bleeding. (Hope that’s not too graphic). I never sought any medical help as the wounds weren’t too severe but they did take three months to heal properly but the scars are still there.

I still have an overwhelming sense of guilt.  For surviving?  For not doing enough to help?  I don’t really know.  I didn’t know anyone that died that day and I still feel like a bit of an outsider attending the memorial service.  I’m not sure how much good it does for me to go every year but I feel I need to go to show my support for the families that did lose loved ones that day.

I have more things on my mind but I think I’ll leave it there as I don’t want to ramble on.

Thanks for reading.

[The 5th Benitle]

I think like most survivors I find it difficult to talk to anyone about what happened on 15/4/89 so this is probably the best place for me to get this off my chest and this is my first post as a long time lurker.

Welcome Mike, and please keep posting. There are some wonderful people on here and I hope that posting that has already helped you in a small way.
But please, don't feel guilty. We know who the guilty people are, and now so does the whole world.

[Maggie May]

Welcome Mike.  Please do post again, I do implore you.  It isn't rambling mate, its simply the time that at last you spoke about everything that's been on your mind.  Guilt that you survived?  Its called survivor syndrome and its perfectly natural after being involved in extreme traumatic circumstances.  Christ mate.  I burned with guilt and shame for years because I wasn't even there.  Because I should by rights have been and I thought that if I was I could have made a difference.  Saved somebody, bossed the bizzies, forced the ambulances to come.  All kinds.  But we only feel guilty because we care.  And as 5Ben so rightly says, the real guilty ones didn't give a fuck.  And we know who they are, and we have and will continue t.o hunt them down.

And as for not doing enough to help.  Fucks sake mate, you were barely capable of helping yourself.  And since your physical wounds took three months to heal and you still bear the scars, they were clearly more severe than you make out.  And you're not an outsider at the memorials because you lived  - don't lay that on yourself.  You have every right to be there and to be an absolute and important part of the fight for justice because you lived to bear witness.   Listen to what the families say and how valued your testiment as to what happened was and to what your support of the 96 has always been   They never could have done it without it.

I very much look forward to hearing from you again.

[the invisible man]

hello mikem..... brilliant mate, well done for a frank and revealing experience....

mate, we all feel the guilt at one time or another, and we al know what you are going through or have gone through, these lying twats have made us feel like this for 24 years but their time is up mikem....they have been found out, and wriggle and squirm as they may, straw, and benniston and all the other corrupt lying cowards, they will be named and shamed forever.....

meanwhile mate, post again, we'd love to hear how you follow the very different reds these days !!!!!!!  HIYYA-HOYYA!!!!!lol

and remember, you have NOTHING to feel guilty about, the cops were in charge of crowd  safety not you or i...  they were an arrogant bunch of tossers who were just INCOMPETENT.... and at the end of the day were just too cowardly to admit they made a mistake....

take care buddy... ynwa

[Harinder]

mikem - welcome. Echo the words of all those before me and please do stay and post more.

[Andy G]

Mikem, thanks for your post and as others have said, please post again when you are ready.  No matter how illogical it is, and in our hearts we know it is not our fault, I am sure that every one of us who was there on the day have guilty feelings.  It is natural and we can't help feeling like that.  I try to tell myself over and again that others are to blame and then I feel more at peace for a while.  I can't say that I couldn't have done more, because I froze, and whilst I am not comfortable with that, I generally manage the guilt because I know it was also not my responsibility as I was an untrained 18 year old boy.  You could not have done more.

God bless mate.

[Craig67]

Hope it’s OK to post this in here?

I posted just after the HIP report was published. Until the report was published I hadn’t spoken or written about it at all.

My wife had been on at me (encouraging, not nagging) to go and speak to someone for years. I’d always dismissed it – other people worse than me, I wasn’t badly enough affected to need counselling, excuses like that.

The Saturday after the HIP I was still in a mess. Couldn’t think straight, nothing. I was driving my daughter somewhere and wasn’t taking anything in and thought I can’t carry on like this so made the decision to try and get counselling.

Even making the decision was a bit of a lift. In hindsight, although the first few days of the report were rough, that in itself was….. I don’t know exactly – to say relief is too mild, but don’t know how else to put it.

So, I made an appointment  at the doctors – got to see a newish young doctor. Just getting the words out as to why I wanted counselling were really hard. I don’t think the poor girl new what to say really.

Anyway, after a while (a good while actually) the appointment comes through. By this time, the fact that the whole truth was out, and talking to my wife and writing on hear, I was feeling better. But, I thought I’ve come this far I may as well see it out – they might decide I don’t need any sessions anyway.

In the end I went about 6 or 7 times. Just speaking the words out loud, not just about what happened, but about feelings and guilt, and talking about them (not something that comes easy to me generally) made a difference. Take guilt – survivor guilt, then feeling guilty about feeling guilty, feeling guilty about not feeling guilty – it never ends. But having a discussion about it definitely helped. You think in your head that it’s not your fault, your not being rationale, but it makes no difference – somehow, talking out loud, as difficult as it was, did help.

There are still times when I struggle. For example, the thread about other fans – the Sheffield Wednesday fan that  brought a shirt signed by lots of other fans had me in tears – touching gestures like that leave me struggling to hold it together.

I’m not writing this saying it would work for everyone, but I think it helped me.

As does this thread – without it, and reading other peoples accounts, there is a good chance I wouldn’t have done anything.

Thanks.

[Harinder]

hi mate

that's very brave of you and definitely is something that helps. Welcome to the best part of this forum and community.

Stick around. There are some gems here who will walk with you 

[the 92A]

Hope it’s OK to post this in here?

I posted just after the HIP report was published. Until the report was published I hadn’t spoken or written about it at all.

My wife had been on at me (encouraging, not nagging) to go and speak to someone for years. I’d always dismissed it – other people worse than me, I wasn’t badly enough affected to need counselling, excuses like that.

The Saturday after the HIP I was still in a mess. Couldn’t think straight, nothing. I was driving my daughter somewhere and wasn’t taking anything in and thought I can’t carry on like this so made the decision to try and get counselling.

Even making the decision was a bit of a lift. In hindsight, although the first few days of the report were rough, that in itself was….. I don’t know exactly – to say relief is too mild, but don’t know how else to put it.

So, I made an appointment  at the doctors – got to see a newish young doctor. Just getting the words out as to why I wanted counselling were really hard. I don’t think the poor girl new what to say really.

Anyway, after a while (a good while actually) the appointment comes through. By this time, the fact that the whole truth was out, and talking to my wife and writing on hear, I was feeling better. But, I thought I’ve come this far I may as well see it out – they might decide I don’t need any sessions anyway.

In the end I went about 6 or 7 times. Just speaking the words out loud, not just about what happened, but about feelings and guilt, and talking about them (not something that comes easy to me generally) made a difference. Take guilt – survivor guilt, then feeling guilty about feeling guilty, feeling guilty about not feeling guilty – it never ends. But having a discussion about it definitely helped. You think in your head that it’s not your fault, your not being rationale, but it makes no difference – somehow, talking out loud, as difficult as it was, did help.

There are still times when I struggle. For example, the thread about other fans – the Sheffield Wednesday fan that  brought a shirt signed by lots of other fans had me in tears – touching gestures like that leave me struggling to hold it together.

I’m not writing this saying it would work for everyone, but I think it helped me.

As does this thread – without it, and reading other peoples accounts, there is a good chance I wouldn’t have done anything.

Thanks.

Craig, thanks for posting that I hope that it helps you and others that read it. The damage done that day is still hurting so many of our fans sharing sometimes can make people realise there are others out there going through the same thing.

[Red_Mist]

The most important thread on this forum. Takes such guts to share. Hope it helps to realise you're not alone. YNWA.

[the invisible man]

The most important thread on this forum. Takes such guts to share. Hope it helps to realise you're not alone. YNWA.

Well said redmist, but its not even guts, its more of an overwhelming desire to be rid of the guilt.... the guilt that STILL, EVEN NOW, even fucking now... that is the impact these twats had and still have, until they are STOPPED AND KICKED OUT AND BROUGHT TO ACCOUNT... thats when the guilt and hurt might start to heal..!!!!!!

[hitman89762000]

Any of yas need to talk ya can pm anytime, i probably wont be much help but the offers there if needed.

[the invisible man]

Any of yas need to talk ya can pm anytime, i probably wont be much help but the offers there if needed.

top man thanks..... ynwa

[hitman89762000]

top man thanks..... ynwa

Appreciate that.

Ive always grown up with the feeling this clubs about more than what happens on the pitch we all look out for each other on here at the match around the world so if people want to pm then great its what we're here for to help. The clubs anthem is more than just words i believe we mean it when we sing it.

Sorry for rambling and as far as im concerned your all amazing the way youve fought over the years ive got the utmost respect for each and every one of you.

[Ozzie Red]

Hi All hope all is as good as it could be, this forum is the best.
I posted a year ago just after the HIP and had some great support, now after all the years and eventually talking about it last year, I am getting extremely angry about the time all this is taking!!! probably just me, and the wheels of justice taking a long time, but everyday recently we are finding more and more about what happened, such as the Police putting in for some moneys from the fund, beggars belief.
What concerns me is I do not trust the people now running this to do the right thing, I think, they are stalling, I read somewhere that the lead person has previously not said the right thing and been independant, surely they should recuse themselves??? gives a reason to challenge any finding?

I now live in Oz and  I am a little detached, which works for me, however every now and again, well you all know, anyway rant over.

YNWA

[That Kennedy moment]

Ive always grown up with the feeling this clubs about more than what happens on the pitch we all look out for each other on here at the match around the world so if people want to pm then great its what we're here for to help. The clubs anthem is more than just words i believe we mean it when we sing it.

I'm with you there mate, totally. Especially as an OOT, long-term… I've always believed this club is something much bigger than the team. But I do believe - and it's not for me to say really, but I will anyway – that if you support the club you should either buy into the soul of the city and its people, or at least try to understand the local culture. Even today, many of our fans don't do that.

One thing that sticks uncomfortably in my mind was being outside the Shankly Gates a couple of years ago. It was a quiet day, only a dozen or so people there, and I wanted just a few quiet moments to pay my respects. There were a group of three lads there, wearing Liverpool shirts, and they had clearly done the club-shop visit. They were taking photos of the memorial, then they started messing around in front of it, posing with different gestures. Then one of them started doing star jumps in front of the memorial, so his mate could take photos of him. I had to walk away…

As for the last post, Ozzie Red... I share your frustration mate. I'm a survivor (pen 3) and I'm a journalist, and privy to quite a lot of information behind the scenes. All I would say at the moment is we have to remain realistic. There are some powerful people ranged against us, but there are some really impressive people working very hard to hold them to account.

There may be some encouraging news in The Guardian this Thursday 

[No666]

I'm with you there mate, totally. Especially as an OOT, long-term… I've always believed this club is something much bigger than the team. But I do believe - and it's not for me to say really, but I will anyway – that if you support the club you should either buy into the soul of the city and its people, or at least try to understand the local culture. Even today, many of our fans don't do that.

One thing that sticks uncomfortably in my mind was being outside the Shankly Gates a couple of years ago. It was a quiet day, only a dozen or so people there, and I wanted just a few quiet moments to pay my respects. There were a group of three lads there, wearing Liverpool shirts, and they had clearly done the club-shop visit. They were taking photos of the memorial, then they started messing around in front of it, posing with different gestures. Then one of them started doing star jumps in front of the memorial, so his mate could take photos of him. I had to walk away…

As a teenager I was at the 1972 Olympics and went to Dachau which is one of the most powerful places I have been to. There were some kids posing for photos with a really inappropriate gaiety in front of the ovens. Your post just reminded me. I suppose the obtuse and the insensitive are rife in every corner of the world. I'm sorry you had this experience, mate. The sensitivity of your writing on your experiences of Hillsborough has affected and moved me more than I can express in a post.

[That Kennedy moment]

Thanks mate, I really appreciate that. But whatever I've done, writing wise, could not have been done without Rawk, and that's a fact.

This really is an amazing resource, when you look at some of the fact sharing and research being done on here. And threads like this are so important: they give people the reassurance and support we never had in those early years - at least, those of us not lucky enough to be on Merseyside.

I remember going to my GP a few days after the disaster. I wasn't breathing properly, and wanted to get my chest and lungs checked out. And he was an old, patrician GP - he wore those glasses tied with a cord over his ears. And although he was happy to refer me to the local hospital for an x-ray, I was sitting there shaking, thinking 'I need to talk to somebody about this…'

But he wouldn't look at me. Couldn't look at me. Eventually, without looking up, he kind of mumbled 'Do you… do you want to talk to someone about your experience?'

But his whole body language was saying: go away, and pull yourself together.

So I just said "No, I'm fine.'

Seventeen years later, I finally found someone to talk to - on here.

[Floydy]

I'm with you there mate, totally. Especially as an OOT, long-term… I've always believed this club is something much bigger than the team. But I do believe - and it's not for me to say really, but I will anyway – that if you support the club you should either buy into the soul of the city and its people, or at least try to understand the local culture. Even today, many of our fans don't do that.

One thing that sticks uncomfortably in my mind was being outside the Shankly Gates a couple of years ago. It was a quiet day, only a dozen or so people there, and I wanted just a few quiet moments to pay my respects. There were a group of three lads there, wearing Liverpool shirts, and they had clearly done the club-shop visit. They were taking photos of the memorial, then they started messing around in front of it, posing with different gestures. Then one of them started doing star jumps in front of the memorial, so his mate could take photos of him. I had to walk away…

As for the last post, Ozzie Red... I share your frustration mate. I'm a survivor (pen 3) and I'm a journalist, and privy to quite a lot of information behind the scenes. All I would say at the moment is we have to remain realistic. There are some powerful people ranged against us, but there are some really impressive people working very hard to hold them to account.

There may be some encouraging news in The Guardian this Thursday 

Adrian- I would have chinned all 3 of the whoppers mate , or at least said something. you did well to restrain yourself.

[That Kennedy moment]

It's hard to work some people out mate, really... Flipside was there were a couple of Scots there - Hearts fans, if I remember right - and they were doing everything right.

Seeing the scarves and colours of other clubs tied to the Shankly Gates is one of the most moving sights anywhere

[Hij]

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s90//sh/56f17ed3-acd7-4e93-9a47-c199dff11841/aa50f3987b820c0fe21b40f579dee371

It took me 20 years to write this, but feel like it may be time to post this. Thanks. JFT96. YNWA.

I'm too young to have been there as I am only 26, but I have friends I go to the games with much older than me who have been, and told me depressing stories and despite them, your story really humbled me- not in a bad way mind, not that yours is any  better or worse than anyone elses - not that a story of Hillsborough should be 'good' or 'bad', it's hard to explain, I'm sure you know what I mean, it's all horrible, no one should have suffered at all, but reading your story brought a tear to my eye that is almost impossible to wash away.

I'm so sorry for what you went through, it should never be like that for someone going to a football game. I truly wish you peace going forwards in your life fella. You deserve some peace and happiness.

[mccred]

Just been reading through some of the old posts and people are right, its hard to to get even Reds who are under 30 and OOT's to fully understand why its such an important part of being a Liverpool FC supporter, to understand what happened that day and why so many are still so vocal about it.
Someone who knows I was at Hillsborough and how much I despise The Scum, passed me a copy the other week on our way to the races. Just looked at him and shook my head. He clicked after a few choice words.
I left it there cause I didn't want it to spoil a good day at Cheltenham but a couple days later, bombarded him with emails and texts about why you can't support Liverpool and give those scum bastards your money. He's a good friend and I think I finally got it through to him by saying, next to time we go the match, I'll wear a Man Utd shirt without a coat or jumper and you just read the Scum on the Kop before the game. I bet I watch the game and I bet you don't even see kick off. Then gave him all the reasons why and what they had said about ME and thousands of others who were there. Think I finally got through, but its taken a few years! It really shouldn't of been that hard.
Anyway the reason I came in here is because its that time of year again and I'm sure I'm not the only one who's first thought every day is that its 25 years on Tuesday.

I was looking through the game thread for Sunday and back in 89/90 I stopped going at the end of the season, just over a year after Hillsborough, because of Scum c*nts at Maine Road singing about Hillsborough. The first time I heard supporters of an other team "take the piss" was the Manchester City away game. Don't get me wrong, they were boo'ed by their own support but I sat/stood?, can't fully remember, but remember thinking, I can't take this.
Things kind of went tits up from there. I had a medical the other day and the woman doing it mentioned that my GP had mentioned PTSD in my report, I've a fairly serious lung disease, so PTSD was only put as a side note. She asked me why PTSD was mentioned, so I replied I was at Hillsborough and she said asked if I was in the army and was that a battle? I just shook my head and said no, I'm just a football supporter. Slowly I think the word "Hillsborough" sunk into her head and she realized where she'd heard it before. I guess she was mid 30's?
Hard to believe that some people still don't know what happened.

Thoughts are with everyone, hope Sundays game can give us something good to keep our minds occupied.

Just wanted to add that been reading through the inquest news only thread, obviously would love to comment but understand why now ain't the time, thoughts and prayers to the families who must be really going through it at the moment.
JFT96, Justice for All.

[SwedenRed]

As a survivor myself, I think I'm really going to hit a high level of emotion when I watch the live game on Saturday afternoon, with the delayed kick off. Everyone around the world who watches the PL, will ask why all games start late, and the message will be so strong and clear for all football fans across the Globe. I know it's going to hit me hard, but it helps having a good cry and knowing all footy fans around the World understanding somewhat to our pain and suffering. Take care all xxx

[Millie]

Time to post this again I think

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/mar/15/hillsborough-disaster-survivors

[cmh86]

Time to post this again I think

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2009/mar/15/hillsborough-disaster-survivors

Harrowing, the scale of people, families affected by Hillsborough is so sad. Reading the words of survivors on here makes me proud to support this great club. We're all one - side by side. YNWA, Craig.

[Glorious Future]

Thinking of everyone.
JFT96
YNWA

[Maggie May]

Thinking of everyone.
JFT96
YNWA

Thinking of you my lovely. 

[Floydy]

was at Hillsborough today. I walked past leppings lane and round the south stand to the reception. I asked the very nice lady at the desk could I go and stand on the Leppings Lane.  She phoned through to the Stadium Manager who basically said 'No' and that the stadium will be open tomorrow from 10am till 6pm for those that wanted to pay their  respects just so that all who wants to go are aware.  The lady politely asked me would I be in the area tomorrow , unfortunately I wont. I had an a meeting with a customer  5 minutes away. Very eerie and quiet at the ground today. One thing really struck me though, there were some flowers just on the floor as if they had been dropped, just opposite were Gate C used to be as now the turnstiles are on a flat wall, but next to the railings opposite where Gate C lay 6 red roses. The sun was shining Very surreal , part of that ground seems stuck , frozen in time , some parts of the ground had changed, others looked exactly the same particularly in and around leppings lane and Vere road. JFT96

[sinnermichael]

"Hillsborough's Untold Stories" on Five Live tonight at 9pm.

[Garcias Sangria]

I was 11 and the semi-final was my first away match out of Merseyside. My mum didn't want to let me go but I begged and pleated and cajoled non-stop for ages. Eventually she let me go with my eldest brother.

My brother and I were so lucky not to be in the crush. A lot of my memories of that day are one massive blur, but in the chaos I recall very clearly desperately wanting to help. I was a St John's ambulance cadet and was screaming at my brother to let me try and help others, he got me the hell out of the ground asap. I was a naive little girl who thought I could save people.

 I still feel so fucking guilty for still being here. I know my brother does too but he doesn't talk about it.  I still have flashbacks, so I self-medicate with sleeping pills. Then I beat myself up for feeling sorry for myself. Anyone who got hurt, or worse, those people are no longer with us, so what right do I have to feel that way. I wasn't even injured. The poor families of our fellow supporters who died have it far far worse than I do.

I've never been back to that place, I tried to force myself to go once, a few years ago, but as soon as I get anywhere near it I can't cope. I couldn't go to a game anywhere for years after that without panicking, and Mum wouldn't let me go to any more matches until I left home.

This probably seems disjointed, it's hard to translate my thoughts into something that makes sense at the moment, please forgive the self-indulgence.

[spen71]

Thinking of everyone. ..  jft96