Author Topic: VAR! Video Assistant Referee & Shite Referees in General  (Read 1325408 times)

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11880 on: April 25, 2021, 09:23:16 am »
Yup against spurs when Bobby was actually being fouled by Dier

Didn't it bounce off of Dier's arm first?
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11881 on: April 25, 2021, 10:04:28 am »
Yup against spurs when Bobby was actually being fouled by Dier

Yep Dier pushed him so that he handballed it.

Funnily enough yesterday the attacker was fouled and also pushed on it.

I actually disagreed that the goal was disallowed. Should have stood.

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11882 on: April 26, 2021, 12:10:37 am »
I'm going to go against the flow and say I don't mind that goal being ruled out. As football is very specifically a non-handling game, right back to its inception and the original distinguishing intent and identity, it's probably right to say a hand or arm should play no part in a goal, even if it is accidental or the player knew nothing about it.

For non-goal incidents accident or inability to avoid are fair mitigation, but probably not for a goal. As ever, consistency is important, of course.
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11883 on: April 26, 2021, 12:13:42 am »
I'm going to go against the flow and say I don't mind that goal being ruled out. As football is very specifically a non-handling game, right back to its inception and the original distinguishing intent and identity, it's probably right to say a hand or arm should play no part in a goal, even if it is accidental or the player knew nothing about it.

For non-goal incidents accident or inability to avoid are fair mitigation, but probably not for a goal. As ever, consistency is important, of course.
Would you then say that if it was a reversed situation and the ball hit the defender's arm, neatly tucked close to the body the same way, that it would be a penalty? Exactly the same situation (no outstretched arm, not discussing a natural or unnatural position) but reversed.
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11884 on: April 26, 2021, 12:20:00 am »
Would you then say that if it was a reversed situation and the ball hit the defender's arm, neatly tucked close to the body the same way, that it would be a penalty? Exactly the same situation (no outstretched arm, not discussing a natural or unnatural position) but reversed.
I think I already answered that - they key point here is 'goal'. Goals are the very centre and heartbeat of football, everything else is an adjunct. As the founders of the game made a conscious point of distinguishing association football from any of the various handling versions of the game, I (personally) feel it makes sense that a hand or arm should play no part in a goal. Anything else can entertain more leniancy.

I appreciate this is probably a minority view, and I'm cool with that. I've never agreed with the 'it's exactly the same as...' argument either, so I don't really think comparing to a defender in a penalty situation has much relevence to this. 
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11885 on: April 26, 2021, 12:25:16 am »
I think I already answered that - they key point here is 'goal'. Goals are the very centre and heartbeat of football, everything else is an adjunct. As the founders of the game made a conscious point of distinguishing association football from any of the various handling versions of the game, I (personally) feel it makes sense that a hand or arm should play no part in a goal. Anything else can entertain more leniancy.

I appreciate this is probably a minority view, and I'm cool with that. I've never agreed with the 'it's exactly the same as...' argument either, so I don't really think comparing to a defender in a penalty situation has much relevence to this. 
For me, the most important thing is the equality of the law for everyone - defenders and attackers. You make that distinction by the outcome - a goal. Fair enough then, I just don't agree that the goal should supersede equality. 
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11886 on: April 26, 2021, 01:11:48 am »
For me, the most important thing is the equality of the law for everyone - defenders and attackers. You make that distinction by the outcome - a goal. Fair enough then, I just don't agree that the goal should supersede equality. 

To add to Ghost Towns post..

A goal scored through a handball, accidental or not, should not stand. However, i would add the handball must be by the goal scorer or as a direct assist by the attacking team to eliminate the Firmino type decision.

As for an accidental handball by a defender inside the box not being a penalty, this is equitable as it stands. As an explanation the attacking team still has a chance to score from open play after the deflection. And many times they still get shot off which results in no goal. Hard luck that but no second chance through a penalty, imho.
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11887 on: April 26, 2021, 01:55:40 am »
To add to Ghost Towns post..

A goal scored through a handball, accidental or not, should not stand. However, i would add the handball must be by the goal scorer or as a direct assist by the attacking team to eliminate the Firmino type decision.

As for an accidental handball by a defender inside the box not being a penalty, this is equitable as it stands. As an explanation the attacking team still has a chance to score from open play after the deflection. And many times they still get shot off which results in no goal. Hard luck that but no second chance through a penalty, imho.
To me though that looks like the "hand ball" is one-directional. And not only that, but it benefits the defender, not the attacker, whereas the spirit of the law is to benefit the attacker (e.g., the pre-VAR offside rule if in line).

Again, I'm not talking about "hand of God", Thierry Henry's goal against Scotland and such blatant use of the hand, but even a settle motion to make yourself bigger if you can't properly judge the ball path, or if you put your arm close to the body to trap the ball "at the chest", etc., goals from all such incidents should be ruled out. Even unintentional events that helped the attacker score should be ruled out if it would not have been a goal if the arm was not there (like a deflection). But when the arm is tucked in and it's position does not change the outcome, I think it's wrong to penalize the attacker. The disallowed goal against us was such an example - if the arm was behind his back and the ball hit his chest, he would have still scored. If the arm deflected the ball unintentionally, e.g., away from the keeper, then the goal shouldn't be counted.

There is always going to be grey area in such definitions, I just don't like the current ones. They were made to help a bunch of incompetent referees make better decision on paper, and the game isn't getting any better and the referees aren't getting any smarter.
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11888 on: April 26, 2021, 09:35:11 am »
To add to Ghost Towns post..

A goal scored through a handball, accidental or not, should not stand. However, i would add the handball must be by the goal scorer or as a direct assist by the attacking team to eliminate the Firmino type decision.



From next season the goal will stand if someone other than the player who handles it then scores.
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11889 on: April 26, 2021, 11:11:16 am »
It's just nuts that a defender can handball it onto an attackers arm who can then handball it in the exact same way and the attacker will be the one punished.
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Offline HomesickRed

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11890 on: April 26, 2021, 02:00:34 pm »
MOTD totally glossed over the Luke Shaw potential handball yesterday. Was there anything in that?

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11891 on: April 26, 2021, 02:35:24 pm »
West Ham appealing Balbuena's red. Good luck with that.

Offline RobinHood

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11892 on: April 28, 2021, 12:58:48 pm »
West Ham appealing Balbuena's red. Good luck with that.

They won, it’s been overturned.

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11893 on: April 28, 2021, 01:03:14 pm »
They won, it’s been overturned.

So, the VAR suggested the ref looked at it, the ref went and looked at it and sent him off, and now it has been decided it was the wrong decision. West Ham may not have got anything out of the game, but they had a far better chance of doing so with 11 men on the pitch instead of 10. It was clear as day in real time and in all the slow mo replays that it shouldn't have been a red card, yet VAR and a ref fucked it, and with it fucked any chance of West Ham getting something from what could be a pivotal game.
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Offline BoRed

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11894 on: April 28, 2021, 01:07:05 pm »
They won, it’s been overturned.

Not the first time this has happened either. It's been said already, why not put the people who deal with these appeals on VAR duty?

Also, what does this tell us about the referees? If they can watch an incident on video and still come to the wrong decision, why do they never face any sanctions?

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11895 on: April 28, 2021, 02:44:17 pm »
What's Dermot Gallagher's view on this?

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11896 on: April 28, 2021, 02:46:12 pm »
What's Dermot Gallagher's view on this?

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11897 on: April 28, 2021, 02:59:26 pm »
So which high profile game does Chris Kavanagh have this weekend as his punishment? Leeds vs Brighton. That'll teach him!
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11898 on: April 28, 2021, 03:06:43 pm »
In reading Dale Johnson’s thread on Monday it seems to consistently be the same refs and VARs that fuck up.  Wouldn’t know it otherwise and I’m sure Mike Riley will say they got 99.9% of decisions right this season and on we go......

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11899 on: May 8, 2021, 07:28:14 pm »
So Anthony Taylor doesn't see a pen when Stirling is taken down from behind. All the while thinking Chelsea need the points to keep Liverpool out of the CL spots. VAR Stuart Attwell, went for a cuppa. Twice in the match.
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11900 on: May 8, 2021, 07:42:01 pm »
So Anthony Taylor doesn't see a pen when Stirling is taken down from behind. All the while thinking Chelsea need the points to keep Liverpool out of the CL spots. VAR Stuart Attwell, went for a cuppa. Twice in the match.

It's a shocker really.

It's so inconsistent. One match the VAR will send the ref to have a look (which was meant to be happening a lot more) the next it'll let something like that go without a second thought.

Offline BoRed

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11901 on: May 8, 2021, 07:44:03 pm »
So Anthony Taylor doesn't see a pen when Stirling is taken down from behind. All the while thinking Chelsea need the points to keep Liverpool out of the CL spots. VAR Stuart Attwell, went for a cuppa. Twice in the match.

City would have missed again anyway. The way they defended at the end, it was like they wanted to lose. Chelsea had two goals chalked off for offside minutes before, City weren't bothered.

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11902 on: May 8, 2021, 07:44:48 pm »
Dermot Gallagher looks like the kind of prick that moves in next to a pub and then complains about the noise
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11903 on: May 8, 2021, 07:56:09 pm »
It's a shocker really.

It's so inconsistent. One match the VAR will send the ref to have a look (which was meant to be happening a lot more) the next it'll let something like that go without a second thought.

Only some sort of review system can correct such inconsistency though.

I say give each team one review per half with only potential pens, fouls in build up to goals and sending offs within the remit of a review.
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11904 on: May 8, 2021, 08:00:35 pm »
Only some sort of review system can correct such inconsistency though.

I say give each team one review per half with only potential pens, fouls in build up to goals and sending offs within the remit of a review.

Does sort anything when the ones reviewing them are fucking inept.

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11905 on: May 8, 2021, 08:03:05 pm »
It's a shocker really.

It's so inconsistent. One match the VAR will send the ref to have a look (which was meant to be happening a lot more) the next it'll let something like that go without a second thought.

If that had been a Liverpool defender, it would have been a guaranteed penalty. Even if he had got the ball.
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11906 on: May 8, 2021, 10:52:46 pm »
 Mad shout by VAR not to review it - the sterling decision

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11907 on: May 9, 2021, 04:18:42 pm »
VAR should have seen the contact on Watkins and asked the ref to go to the screen.
And then, in SLO MO, zoomed in on the contact and awarded the penalty.

It was never a pelanty of course. But you can bet your house that if it had been Rashford or Bruno Fernandes or the great Paul "I like to go down" Pogba then it would have been a quick as you like penalty and easy justification "there was contact so he has a right to go down there".

I am happy. Happy that the rules are being consistently applied.
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11908 on: May 9, 2021, 04:38:11 pm »
VAR should have seen the contact on Watkins and asked the ref to go to the screen.
And then, in SLO MO, zoomed in on the contact and awarded the penalty.

It was never a pelanty of course. But you can bet your house that if it had been Rashford or Bruno Fernandes or the great Paul "I like to go down" Pogba then it would have been a quick as you like penalty and easy justification "there was contact so he has a right to go down there".

I am happy. Happy that the rules are being consistently applied.

Annoys the fuck out of me how its been turned into "there was contact so its a pen", its a cheats paradise now.
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11909 on: May 9, 2021, 04:57:10 pm »
How many managers and players complaining about Jon Moss will it take before anything is done?  Is there even a limit?  Will an 80 year old Moss be pushed around the field guessing at penalty calls even after AI has taken over?

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11910 on: May 9, 2021, 06:26:52 pm »
How many managers and players complaining about Jon Moss will it take before anything is done?  Is there even a limit?  Will an 80 year old Moss be pushed around the field guessing at penalty calls even after AI has taken over?
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11911 on: May 9, 2021, 06:46:20 pm »
If that had been a Liverpool defender, it would have been a guaranteed penalty. Even if he had got the ball.

It does feel like we are more harshly treated by refs but why would be more biased against us?

Tomkins has written some interesting things about this but he seems not to be that highly regarded by some on here.   
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Offline Dr Stu-Pid

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11912 on: May 11, 2021, 11:46:28 am »
Another shocking week for VAR.

The Vestergaard red card being overturned was yet another slap in the face for PGMOL and is the sort of thing that you might be able to accept happening once a season, but for it to happen twice in two weeks and twice in the same season for the same team is a shocking indictment of the referees and the process that they follow (or maybe don't follow...).

Then we have last night's match and the blatant penalty not awarded to Fulham and then a couple of minutes later a blatant sending off not given for Burnley.  Ultimately it didn't effect the game, but imagine if things were a bit closer at the bottom of the table and that was a proper relegation 6 pointer with a couple of weeks of the season left. 

Coote just outright f*cked up the first decision, but that is when VAR need to step in and tell him that he made a mistake, not hide behind the ridiculous 'clear and obvious' error guidance.  If it is a penalty then it is a penalty.

For the second one I have a bit more sympathy for Coote as his view of the incident was blocked and so he would have been guessing, but the Assistant Referee should have had a good view, and on the off chance that neither of them saw it then we now have VAR as a safety net to step in and give them a second chance to look at it.  The fact that the referee was not asked to go and look at either incident again tells you everything you need to know about how badly VAR has been implemented.

But of course PGMOL will tell us that VAR is doing a great job because it managed to correct one of the worst penalty awards of all time in the Man City v Chelsea game, whereas all it really highlighted is how bad the referees are in the first place.  And then of course they manage to f*ck up the obvious penalty on Sterling and once more the referee doesn't get to have a second look at it.

One of either VAR or PGMOL needs to be removed, as we've got more than enough evidence now to show that the two together simply do not work.

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11913 on: May 11, 2021, 12:08:49 pm »
One of either VAR or PGMOL needs to be removed, as we've got more than enough evidence now to show that the two together simply do not work.

Not necessarily removed, but they definitely need to operate separately. Having the same bad referee's operating VAR as those on the pitch just doubles the problem. And worse, you can tell from the more recent decisions that their confidence is just shot on VAR and they've second guessed themselves into not having a clue.

VAR should have a separate lot of referee's that are trained to within an inch of their lives as to what are right and wrong decisions. The process needs to be made as objective as is possible to avoid the ridiculous "clear and obvious" excuses and a clear lack of consistency.
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11914 on: May 11, 2021, 12:20:51 pm »
Said in the match thread yesterday, but that decision not to send off the goalie in the Fulham match is outrageous.

Their excuse was that there was a covering defender.

1. The defender is flat on his arse from the goalie taking him out.
2. The defender isn't quick enough to stop a shot into an empty goal.
3. If the goalie didn't trip either of them up, then it's still a Burnley forward vs a Fulham Defender with NO GOALKEEPER. How is that less of a goal scoring opportunity than when it's last man and there is a goalkeeper still in goals. So now no reds should occur as the goalkeeper is still here to cover?

How fucking incompetent can they be?
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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11915 on: May 11, 2021, 12:37:28 pm »
They make it up as they go along and will try and justify any decision that favours the ref

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11916 on: May 11, 2021, 02:25:37 pm »
Not necessarily removed, but they definitely need to operate separately. Having the same bad referee's operating VAR as those on the pitch just doubles the problem. And worse, you can tell from the more recent decisions that their confidence is just shot on VAR and they've second guessed themselves into not having a clue.

VAR should have a separate lot of referee's that are trained to within an inch of their lives as to what are right and wrong decisions. The process needs to be made as objective as is possible to avoid the ridiculous "clear and obvious" excuses and a clear lack of consistency.

I agree that just having a separate organization running VAR would be a better option than the status quo, but I think we also just need to address how bad the referees actually are in this country, and that buck stops with PGMOL.  They are incompetent on the field, incompetent off it (VAR), and worst of all the organization itself does everything it can to back up its members rather than admit their flaws and mistakes.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11917 on: May 11, 2021, 02:37:07 pm »
Annoys the fuck out of me how its been turned into "there was contact so its a pen", its a cheats paradise now.

There was contact so it's a pen, unless it's against Manchester United in which case it's a sending off and no pen
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11918 on: May 11, 2021, 04:22:53 pm »
There was contact so it's a pen, unless it's against Manchester United in which case it's a sending off and no pen

I'm confused now.

What happens when there's contact on Salah or Mane?

We then get told that not all contact is a pen or that they made the most of it, or that there was not enough to make them go down.

Diving well gets rewarded in this league. Because Salah especially is shit at it, he gets stick, but when Kane does his full on belly flop, not a word is said.

Offline tubby

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Re: VAR! Huh! What is it good for? Bit shit innit?
« Reply #11919 on: May 11, 2021, 04:25:44 pm »
but when Kane does his full on belly flop, not a word is said.

There was literally a post-match interview with Kane on Sky(?) where the interviewer made him watch one of his dives and try to explain it.
Sit down, shock is better taken with bent knees.