Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...

[Alan_X]

Just out of interest how did Mandelson and Campbell having to much influence sit with you?
if you say just as bad i can agree with you, i generally have no truck with spin doctors and shadowy characters making policies or manipulating them. For me the only people a leader needs around them should be members of the shadow cabinet and the deputy leader should have a much bigger role, the PR guys should do their job in the background to my way of thinking so as such i disliked Campbell and i detest Milne.

Completely different mate. Campbell is a pragmatist and a strategist. His main skill was in making left-wing and centre-left politics digestible in a way that won three general elections. He wasn't a policy maker.

Milne is an ideologue and actually not very good at PR.

[Alan_X]

Or you could say the words coming out of his mouth you have decided what they mean from your most negative standpoint.

Could you translate "...invoke Artlicle 50 now..." in words that I can understand?

[ShakaHislop]

I didn't realise that. It might have been nothing more than complacency. After several years of rebelling against his party without ever paying a price for it he must have felt he could act with impunity. And he could. Then it got to a point where he became almost cherished for his contrariness (remember how Blair saved his skin when it looked like his local party was about to de-select him?) By then he had to defy the Labour whip otherwise what was the point of him?

It was for a similar reason that enough Labour MPs voted to put him on the ballot for the initial leadership contest. They opposed practically everything he stood for but thought he'd be good for the laugh.

A laugh for Labour not the Tories. But it turned out to be a laugh for the Tories.

And they've done next-to-nothing since to try and fix the mess they shoulder a significant amount of responsibility for. The PLP is letting the country down big time.

[Alan_X]

And they've done next-to-nothing since to try and fix the mess they shoulder a significant amount of responsibility for. The PLP is letting the country down big time.

Labour MPs pass no-confidence motion in Jeremy Corbyn

28 June 2016

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36647458

Sadly, there's fuck all they can do as long as the membership continue to support him.

MPs who argue against him get abuse, threats of deselection, death threats, if they're Jewish anti-semitic abuse, and if they're women rape threats...

A different kind of politics.

[oldfordie]

Feel free to argue over the precise meaning of 'now' as his defenders try to do but the timing and the meaning are there in black and white.

Video:

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/pBmuIHfFWdM?fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/pBmuIHfFWdM?fs=1</a>

For further clarity - see 2.00 in the interview when Dimbleby asks why he's arguing for an 'abrupt' invocation rather than taking stock as Daniel Hannan (the voice of sanity for fucks sake) and go "gently, gently rather than rushing headlong into Article 50..."

Corbyn: "...the people were asked their opinion, they've given their opinion, and it's up to parliament to now act on that opinion..."

Haven't seen that video before. it's shocking and shows exactly why he is not leadership material. he is being asked if the country should stand back and not rush into this before we know the full implications of what we are about to do, his reply is we will have to negotiate with the EU. of course we have to negotiate with the EU, that wasn't the question, he should have been the one making these arguments as the leader of the opposition.
Maybe he did mean we must trig art 50 immediately, we know he told the Tories that Labour would not stand in the way of the triggering of art 50 which is practically the same thing, feel free to do it anytime you please.

[Yorkykopite]

And they've done next-to-nothing since to try and fix the mess they shoulder a significant amount of responsibility for. The PLP is letting the country down big time.

That's not quite true. There was a large vote of no confidence against him which triggered a second leadership election. (Remember the "chicken coup" as it was called by some posters on here, and elsewhere?) But by that stage it was too late. Corbyn was on his throne and the kingmakers were people like Big Jezzas Jizza, not the PLP.

As Alan has sneakily said just before I posted this....

[Alan_X]

That's not quite true. There was a large vote of no confidence against him which triggered a second leadership election. (Remember the "chicken coup" as it was called by some posters on here, and elsewhere?) But by that stage it was too late. Corbyn was on his throne and the kingmakers were people like Big Jezzas Jizza, not the PLP.

As Alan has sneakily said just before I posted this....

The vote was 172-40.

[bigbonedrawky]

As ever with Corbyn, when defending him it's critical to understand that the words that come out of his mouth don't actually mean what they seem to mean.

'Do it now' does not mean do it now. It means something else entirely in Corbynspeak.

'These anti-semitic terrorists are my friends' is simply a normal welcome that anyone one would use when introducing anti-semitic terrorists.

"Do it now " ? I'm fairly sure he didn't say that either.
ps
I'm on a PS and I'm "Missing Plug In" to watch your vid.

Oh God, I feel pretty sure that this thread is now going to get a long disquisition on what the word "insists" means.

I'm guessing it means different things to different people.

[Yorkykopite]

I'm guessing it means different things to different people.

Most people will get it, but there's always some that don't. There's no accounting for some people's comprehension, or lack of it.

[Sangria]

I'm reminded of Johnson standing in front of a bulldozer denying that he'd ever said anything about Turkish people. The evidence is empirical and concrete, but he and his supporters will deny the evidence in front of their eyes.

[BoRed]

Could you translate "...invoke Artlicle 50 now..." in words that I can understand?

Where are all those synonym experts when you need them?

[Zeb]

The claim: Jeremy Corbyn has performed a U-turn over when Article 50 should be triggered.

Reality Check verdict: Mr Corbyn's message has certainly changed, either because he has changed his mind or because he misspoke on 24 June and waited a month to correct himself.

BBC, July 2016

Fun how it all is read again at a distance.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Oh God, I feel pretty sure that this thread is now going to get a long disquisition on what the word "insists" means.

I'm guessing it means different things to different people.

Brilliant.

[west_london_red]

I did look at the party website. Did you read the document about ownership models? The Corbyn McDonnell model of business ownership in the long term is similar to the Venezuelan ideal of co-operatisation and collectivisation.

You may think it's about nationalising the post office and the choo-choos but the long term ideal is for small businesses like mine to be turned into cooperatives. It's a lovely ideal but everywhere it's been tried on a large scale it's been a disaster.

And let me guess, he wants to liquidate the kulaks after that?

Yes, I have previously read the paper previously but I thought I’d skim through it again when I saw this bit on the front page:

“It should not be taken to represent Labour Party policy.”

So shall we go back to party policy?

[Yorkykopite]

Where are all those synonym experts when you need them?

Delia Smith uses a lot of synonym in her puddings.

[Mutton Geoff]

Like the Drumpf morans that is all the Comrade sycophants have "Show me that" "Oh but that isn't what he meant" "MSM,Blairite,but the tories,grumble,grumble"

any chance you could do this again in English, Comrade sychophants indeed and Drumpf oh dear.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Delia Smith uses a lot of synonym in her puddings.

Sounds like a ad homonym attack, that.

[BoRed]

Delia Smith uses a lot of synonym in her puddings.

It took me nearly two weeks after the Champions League final to delve into politics again, and you just had to bring Norwich into it. Eight weeks to go ...

[Alan_X]

"Do it now " ? I'm fairly sure he didn't say that either.
I'm guessing it means different things to different people.

It's on 32 seconds that he says the word "now" as part of the statement that  "...Article 50 has to be invoked now..."

He repeats that it has to be done "now" after being challenged about doing it straight away. That would appear to fit the definition of 'insist'.

[Mutton Geoff]

Could you translate "...invoke Artlicle 50 now..." in words that I can understand?

Quite simple if he said 'Invoke Article 50 now' yet he was in no position to do that, it was a suggestion, the Tories could have done as he asked or ignored it the ball was in their court so try as hard as you like with your tedious blame game, he didnt Invoke the Article 50 did he?

You could also maybe think that comment was along the same lines as your old grannie saying if i told you to put your fingers in the fire would you?  If you did put your fingers in the fire would that be your fault or your grannies ?

Or to use another one, i could walk into the Heads office tomorrow and tell him to give me a payrise, the decision would be his alone to do as i told him or ignore the request.

[ShakaHislop]

Labour MPs pass no-confidence motion in Jeremy Corbyn

28 June 2016

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36647458

Sadly, there's fuck all they can do as long as the membership continue to support him.

MPs who argue against him get abuse, threats of deselection, death threats, if they're Jewish anti-semitic abuse, and if they're women rape threats...

A different kind of politics.

That's not quite true. There was a large vote of no confidence against him which triggered a second leadership election. (Remember the "chicken coup" as it was called by some posters on here, and elsewhere?) But by that stage it was too late. Corbyn was on his throne and the kingmakers were people like Big Jezzas Jizza, not the PLP.

As Alan has sneakily said just before I posted this....

To be fair, I did say "next-to-nothing" rather than simply "nothing" 

That challenge was led by Owen Smith, who I remember being criticised even by some of those who wanted Corbyn gone. Corbyn hasn't been challenged by someone who commands more respect than Smith among anti-Corbynites/"moderates" (I'm thinking of the likes of Cooper and Benn); someone who could inspire those people to make the effort and spend the money to join the party in order to vote for them in a leadership contest. The PLP has had 3 years since the Smith challenge to organise behind such a stronger challenger but nothing.

Likewise, they've had 3 years to go for a more radical option and quit together to form a new Labour (pun not intended) A party clearly of the centre-left, rather than the fuzzy stance of Change UK.

Neither of the above options is easy but at least one of them needed/needs to be tried. To just say "oh well, we tried in 2016" is defeatism worthy of severe criticism IMO. Waiting Corbyn out is proving to be disastrous. We're looking at PM Boris, a no deal Brexit and  close to 15 years at least of Tory rule (presuming PM Boris calls, and wins a GE this year)

[bigbonedrawky]

any chance you could do this again in English, Comrade sychophants indeed and Drumpf oh dear.

Ironically it's the kind of thing that loses referendumbs and gets the likes of Trump elected in the first place.
It's also helped solidify Corbyn's support in the leadership elections.
Honey or vinegar make your choice.   

[Yorkykopite]

It's on 32 seconds that he says the word "now" as part of the statement that  "...Article 50 has to be invoked now..."

He repeats that it has to be done "now" after being challenged about doing it straight away. That would appear to fit the definition of 'insist'.

But the dictionary definition of "insist" is - "When you hold a gun to someone's head and threaten to pull the trigger unless you get your own way". So, I guess, Big Boned is right on this.

[Alan_X]

And let me guess, he wants to liquidate the kulaks after that?

Yes, I have previously read the paper previously but I thought I’d skim through it again when I saw this bit on the front page:

“It should not be taken to represent Labour Party policy.”

So shall we go back to party policy?

Anyone who believes that the Labour manifesto actually reflects the long term goals of Corbyn and his mates is naive.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

any chance you could do this again in English, Comrade sychophants indeed and Drumpf oh dear.

Shut up & grow up stalker.

[Mutton Geoff]

Shut up & grow up stalker.

ha ha you remind me of a certain Dr from Manhattan it couldnt be now though could it?

[Mutton Geoff]

Completely different mate. Campbell is a pragmatist and a strategist. His main skill was in making left-wing and centre-left politics digestible in a way that won three general elections. He wasn't a policy maker.

Milne is an ideologue and actually not very good at PR.

Was it pragmatic to print known lies to take us into a war, or was that an example of him being a strategist, as for not a policy maker, well Prescott would refute that to begin with. Along with Mandelson he had the ear of Blair constantly the only diference is that actually you liked them but you dont like Milne and Murrey whereas i have no time for any of them.

[Alan_X]

Quite simple if he said 'Invoke Article 50 now' yet he was in no position to do that, it was a suggestion, the Tories could have done as he asked or ignored it the ball was in their court so try as hard as you like with your tedious blame game, he didnt Invoke the Article 50 did he?

You could also maybe think that comment was along the same lines as your old grannie saying if i told you to put your fingers in the fire would you?  If you did put your fingers in the fire would that be your fault or your grannies ?

Or to use another one, i could walk into the Heads office tomorrow and tell him to give me a payrise, the decision would be his alone to do as i told him or ignore the request.

In which case you have to ask yourself:  "What is the point of Jeremy Corbyn?"

The question being discussed was whether Corbyn was the first to say that Article 50 should be invoked. The answer to that is yes.

Did he have the power to actually do it? You say no, but the real answer is no one person has the power to do it as we don't have a President with executive powers.

The power rested with Parliament and as part of the Remain campaign (in theory), leader of a pro-EU party with a pro-Eu membership and leader of the opposition, he was in a position to build cross-party agreement for a considered approach to the process.

Instead he gave everything away like a teenager suffering from premature ejaculation or someone with Tourettes.  He's the Ed Woodward of British politics.

[Alan_X]

Was it pragmatic to print known lies to take us into a war, or was that an example of him being a strategist, as for not a policy maker, well Prescott would refute that to begin with. Along with Mandelson he had the ear of Blair constantly the only diference is that actually you liked them but you dont like Milne and Murrey whereas i have no time for any of them.

The Chilcott Inquiry cleared him of those allegations.

[west_london_red]

Anyone who believes that the Labour manifesto actually reflects the long term goals of Corbyn and his mates is naive.

Well, you asked me about economic policy so I pointed you towards the party site and manifesto, and you point me towards another document that says on it ‘this is not policy’, but your telling me the policy is not the policy and what’s not policy is policy and this is all happening on the very same site.

I’m out.

[bigbonedrawky]

The Chilcott Inquiry cleared him of those allegations.

Yeah we were sent to war on a pack of...Information.

[Alan_X]

Yeah we were sent to war on a pack of...Information.

The intelligence was rubbish and Blair and Campbell have admitted that they didn’t question it hard enough.

There is no evidence that either of them lied or that the information was ‘sexed up’.

You clearly are missing the irony that you are repeating unsubstantiated rumours to justify a particular point of view. Isn’t that a bad thing?

[TepidT2O]

The transfer forum is a haven of peace and goodwill compared to this place.

[bigbonedrawky]

The intelligence was rubbish and Blair and Campbell have admitted that they didn’t question it hard enough.

There is no evidence that either of them lied or that the information was ‘sexed up’.

You clearly are missing the irony that you are repeating unsubstantiated rumours to justify a particular point of view. Isn’t that a bad thing?

So we were sent to war on a pack of...Information Intelligence.
I'm sorry for repeating these unsubstantiated rumours Alan but unfortunately like Cambellend himself I simply cant spin it any more positively than that.

[Mutton Geoff]

The Chilcott Inquiry cleared him of those allegations.

And we know from experience that all enquiries have always found all the evidence required and given the correct verdict.

[Mutton Geoff]

The transfer forum is a haven of peace and goodwill compared to this place.

Well get back to it then.

[Alan_X]

And we know from experience that all enquiries have always found all the evidence required and given the correct verdict.

They often do. I assume that you are alluding to the Taylor Report ("we know from experience") which examined the evidence and cleared Liverpool fans of any responsibility. It placed the blame on failures in policing and the state of the ground.

The problem was the South Yorkshire Police and their allies ignoring the report's findings and telling their own stories.

Do you have any evidence that Chilcott gave the wrong verdict? Or do you just want to believe a different story?

[filopastry]

In a hugely unsurprising piece of news, Chukka Umunna has joined the LibDems.

Wollaston and Heidi Allen also expected to join and Phillip Lee may be jumping from the Tories as well

[Alan_X]

So we were sent to war on a pack of...Information Intelligence.
I'm sorry for repeating these unsubstantiated rumours Alan but unfortunately like Cambellend himself I simply cant spin it any more positively than that.

Don't be sorry - you're happy to repeat rumours and tittle-tattle. That's up to you.

[Zeb]

In a hugely unsurprising piece of news, Chukka Umunna has joined the LibDems.

Wollaston and Heidi Allen also expected to join and Phillip Lee may be jumping from the Tories as well

If Lee goes, that's the (notional including DUP) majority down to 2 MPs, isn't it? Confidence vote tricky to call because of the number of independents but...