Topic: General Political discussion with kesey-style vibes & tantric breathing stuff...

[Sangria]

I think that's the new pitch for Corbyn. "Vote Labour. We're as bad as the Tories."

[BarryCrocker]

Well the BBC aren't backing Jeremy C*nt.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/DRd9rMCM_MA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/DRd9rMCM_MA</a>

[Mutton Geoff]

What point are you making? I'm not dismissing it. As I said, there is an acceptance of prejudice in the Tory Party that I find unacceptable and even if the rest of their politics was acceptable, it would prevent me from voting Tory.

I apply the same principles to any party. I don't vote for parties where bigotry is accepted by the leadership.

Are you suggesting that because the Tories allow Islamophobia it gives Labour a pass on anti-semitism?

So change the bloody thread title to  something like what the hell is happening with the labour party rather than mislead the people into believing this is a thread about the whole of politics.

I am not allowing a pass to any party for their racism so you stuff that comment,  you however simply seem to dismiss it as well they are tories what can you expect so are you allowing a pass to them, shrugging it off as well they are tories we expect that creates a climate were its ok because they are tories rather than defending the Muslim community in the same way as you might defend any other community under attack.  Is that a level playing field..

 Corbyn is a shithouse, and also all people who indulge in any form of racism are shithouses as well simple as that.

[Yorkykopite]

Been chilling out to this tonight. Would recommend if anyone needs an hour of relaxed non-partisan discussion of where we're at politically as a country: http://stukroodvlees.nl/stuk-rood-vlees-podcast-episode-31-electoral-realignment-in-the-uk-with-rob-ford/

It's Rob Ford, from Manchester Uni, and a Dutch mate of his who does politics stuffs. About an hour long and discussing the fractures in British politics around Brexit. Was a good listen as it covers everything from low percentage vote shares in FPTP through to how referendums bollox up the 'unwritten' constitution.

Thanks for posting that. I thought it was interesting.

I wonder whether he's right, however, when he says that the Labour party was taken by surprise at how large (and defectable) their Remain vote is? He's surely right that the predominant narrative has been about what will happen to the working-class Brexit voters if Labour plumps for a Second Referendum*, but I refuse to believe that Corbyn and that crowd failed to realise the strength of Remain opinion among Labour voters. For one thing, Corbyn (like Starmer, Abbott and Thornberry) is an MP for a North London constituency where 70-odd per cent of people voted Remain. There was no dodging this.

So there must be another explanation for their readiness to ignore Remainers. In Corbyn's case it's easy. He is a dogmatic Brexiteer who doesn't care what the majority of his supporters want. He knows best. Abbott is just thick and governed by a single principle ("I'll do what Jeremy does"). As for Starmer and Thornberry I imagine that, as Remainers themselves, they believed that most of Labour's Remain votes would swallow their deepest convictions and continue to vote for the Labour party, just as they are doing. Wrong.

If Starmer and Thornberry want to save the Labour party is as clear as day that they are going to have to seize the controls from Corbyn now. They won't do it though.   

*Although even that narrative is desperately out of date since Labour's working class vote may defect to the Right anyway, regardless of what Labour does over Europe in future.

[filopastry]

Thanks for posting that. I thought it was interesting.

I wonder whether he's right, however, when he says that the Labour party was taken by surprise at how large (and defectable) their Remain vote is? He's surely right that the predominant narrative has been about what will happen to the working-class Brexit voters if Labour plumps for a Second Referendum*, but I refuse to believe that Corbyn and that crowd failed to realise the strength of Remain opinion among Labour voters. For one thing, Corbyn (like Starmer, Abbott and Thornberry) is an MP for a North London constituency where 70-odd per cent of people voted Remain. There was no dodging this.

So there must be another explanation for their readiness to ignore Remainers. In Corbyn's case it's easy. He is a dogmatic Brexiteer who doesn't care what the majority of his supporters want. He knows best. Abbott is just thick and governed by a single principle ("I'll do what Jeremy does"). As for Starmer and Thornberry I imagine that, as Remainers themselves, they believed that most of Labour's Remain votes would swallow their deepest convictions and continue to vote for the Labour party, just as they are doing. Wrong.

If Starmer and Thornberry want to save the Labour party is as clear as day that they are going to have to seize the controls from Corbyn now. They won't do it though.   

*Although even that narrative is desperately out of date since Labour's working class vote may defect to the Right anyway, regardless of what Labour does over Europe in future.

It sounds interesting and I will have to have a listen later, it does seem that the electorate is becoming more fractured on social issues (and Brexit seems to be very much a reflection of that) and views rather than necessarily economic ones

[Red-Soldier]

I don't proclaim to know everything.  I just like to correct fallacies now and again.

Sorry if that grates on you 

[The Gulleysucker]

I don't proclaim to know everything.  I just like to correct fallicies now and again.

Sorry if that grates on you 

Just a minor detail, but it's fallacies.

[So… Howard Philips]

I don't proclaim to know everything.  I just like to correct fallicies now and again.

Sorry if that grates on you 

Fallacies - That's your warning from the spelling police.

Edit - just saw Gulley.

[Red-Soldier]

Just a minor detail, but it's fallacies.

Apologies for my dyslexia/dyspraxia.

[The Gulleysucker]

Apologies for my dyslexia/dyspraxia.

You should arrange for a Private Consultation.

I suggest you ring up your Doctor and ask for a Secret one...

[Skeeve]

I simply believe all politics needs to be discussed and even if you all agree the tories are vermin to quote a great man,  then why not state that instead of thinking well everyone knows that, people who read these threads may not be aa aware about that as you think, especially non UK citizens who perhaps read these posts.

A discussion involves more than one viewpoint, repeatedly calling out the tories for being c*nts would not generate any debtate since it is fucking obvious and as far as the catering to less aware rationalisation, if people want to contribute to a debate then it should be up to them to make themselves aware of the situation before jumping right in, a bit of lurking before posting is not an unreasonable expectation.

[Red-Soldier]

You should arrange for a Private Consultation.

I suggest you ring up your Doctor and ask for a Secret one...

Or perhaps a "separate" one 

[The Gulleysucker]

You said Private and Secret are interchangeable and synonyms and that they mean the same thing.

Of course you are correct.

[Alan_X]

Just a minor detail, but it's fallacies.

And secret not being an exact synonym for private is not a fallacy as there is no argument involved. As with secret/private, a fallacy and something being incorrect have nuanced differences.

I think he’s a bit out of his depth. Ah well.

[Mutton Geoff]

You said Private and Secret are interchangeable and synonyms and that they mean the same thing.

Of course you are correct.

Well that explains the old Etonian clique with their Private (secret) Education.

[Red-Soldier]

You said Private and Secret are interchangeable and synonyms and that they mean the same thing.

Of course you are correct.

I didn't write the English language.  I'm just telling you how it is.  If you want to discuss things further I suggest you write to Oxford, Cambridge and Collins, and give them your thoughts.

Synonyms are just words that can be used to replace a said word that has the same, or similar meaning:

synonym
noun [ C ]
uk ​ /ˈsɪn.ə.nɪm/ us ​ /ˈsɪn.ə.nɪm/
​

C2 a word or phrase that has the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or phrase in the same language:
The words "small" and "little" are synonyms.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/synonym

[Red-Soldier]

I think he’s a bit out of his depth. Ah well.

Like I said, there's no debate.  It's the English language.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/synonym

synonym
noun [ C ]
uk ​ /ˈsɪn.ə.nɪm/ us ​ /ˈsɪn.ə.nɪm/
​

C2 a word or phrase that has the same or nearly the same meaning as another word or phrase in the same language:
The words "small" and "little" are synonyms.


https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english-thesaurus/private


Synonyms of 'private'
Explore 'private' in the dictionary
1 (adjective)  in the sense of nonpublic
Definition
owned or paid for by individuals rather than by the government
a joint venture with private industry
Synonyms
nonpublic
, independent
, commercial
, privatised
, private-enterprise
, denationalized
, closed (of data or programming language)
See examples for each synonym
2 (adjective)  in the sense of exclusive
Definition
not for general or public use
He has had to sell his private plane.
Synonyms
exclusive
, individual
, privately owned
, own
, special
, particular
, reserved
See examples for each synonym
Opposites
public
, general
, common
3 (adjective)  in the sense of secret
Definition
confidential or secret
He held a private meeting with the country's political party leaders.
Synonyms
secret
, confidential
, covert
, inside
, closet
, unofficial
, privy (archaic)
, clandestine
, off the record
, hush-hush (informal)
, in camera

[Mutton Geoff]

A discussion involves more than one viewpoint, repeatedly calling out the tories for being c*nts would not generate any debtate since it is fucking obvious and as far as the catering to less aware rationalisation, if people want to contribute to a debate then it should be up to them to make themselves aware of the situation before jumping right in, a bit of lurking before posting is not an unreasonable expectation.

Well i agree with your definition of a discussion!

 So as it is the case in this thread and any other thread centering on Corbyn since he was elected that any other viewpoint other than Corbyn is a c*nt are not tolerated and any poster who forms a different opinion is personally derided in this discussion so how does that fit in with your definition of a discussion?

[classycarra]

Well i agree with your definition of a discussion!

 So as it is the case in this thread and any other thread centering on Corbyn since he was elected that any other viewpoint other than Corbyn is a c*nt are not tolerated and any poster who forms a different opinion is personally derided in this discussion so how does that fit in with your definition of a discussion?

You've made more posts bringing up Corbyn on this page than anyone else

[Jiminy Cricket]

Well i agree with your definition of a discussion!

 So as it is the case in this thread and any other thread centering on Corbyn since he was elected that any other viewpoint other than Corbyn is a c*nt are not tolerated and any poster who forms a different opinion is personally derided in this discussion so how does that fit in with your definition of a discussion?

Jiminy Cricket. I knew there was a good reason for me choosing that username.

[Mutton Geoff]

You've made more posts bringing up Corbyn on this page than anyone else

[The Gulleysucker]

Look, let's say you go to your GP for an appointment.

It could be called a Private Consultation in that no other patient is present in the room when you see the Doctor though Private here in the UK could also imply that the GP was seeing you outside of the NHS and would bill you privately for his diagnosis of you.

It could probably also be called or at least implied as a Confidential Consultation in that what is discussed remains only between yourself and your Doctor ... and obviously the Health Service via your records...

And according to your rules, you claim that since Private and Secret are synonyms, they are completely interchangeable so it could also be called a Secret Consultation.

Now it's true that what is discussed during the consultation would perhaps remain secret but it would also infer that the no one else knew of your consultation Which is patently absurd since you would have had to book the appointment so the Practice manager/receptionist would also know as well as anyone else in the waiting room, so Confidential would be a better word to describe that.

As I have just demonstrated, while Private and Secret may be synonyms (meaning describing similar things), a Private meeting implies a quite different meaning from a Secret meeting.

If you don't believe me then it's simple, try ringing your Surgery and ask for a Secret appointment with your Doctor and see what happens.

It's context that always matters with words as it's what provides or implies a particular meaning to what is actually being described.

And as to what started this off and what you defended, I believe that writer deliberately changed the text from Private to Secret in an attempt to convey an element of furtiveness about the meeting and to thus fit in with his obsession of there being secretive Jewish control over things going on in the world ie NWO/PEZ bollocks.

[Red-Soldier]

There may or may not have not been shady underlying reasons why they chose to substitute the words they did.

I just wanted to highlight that there was a perfectly legitimate reason for using them too, that's all.

[oldfordie]

People on here have not only tore into the Tories over the way they have stirred up hatred towards Muslims, they tore into Newspapers like the Mail+Express. how did Brexit come about. immigration.
I don't believe most leave voters were that bothered about people from France or Germany coming to
I thought Frottage should have been sent to prison for his Breaking point poster.
Joe Cox was murdered only hours after the newspapers had that image on their front pages yet I didn't hear any of our politicians bringing this up at the time, it was discussed on here though.
Remember the Vote leave TV adds showing unrestricted FOM coming from Turkey while implying Muslims from Iraq etc will also be able to come and theres sod all we can do about it.
Johnson argued this. Rhabb refused to acknowledge the fact we have a veto arguing it's only a matter of time, he even argued we have no veto so we can't stop it. all these things helped to light a fire in this country. yet we still haven't learned any lessons, our politicians will still be able to say what they like with impunity.
I can see why people fear unrestricted movement from other countries, Ive argued with people who have told me this countries going to f.. by the time their grand kids grow up. they were thinking of Muslims when they voted leave. they seemed lost for words when you point out that this sort of immigration comes from outside the EU. the Tories and right wing Media brought this about.
There is no logic to racism, ignorance and fear. I can understand they have genuine fears even if this fear has been used to con them into voting for Brexit, ive no idea where people with AS views are coming from. no idea how they could fall for all the conspiracy s.. no idea how they can ignore the lessons from history that tells us where this hatred leads.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

So change the bloody thread title to  something like what the hell is happening with the labour party rather than mislead the people into believing this is a thread about the whole of politics.

I am not allowing a pass to any party for their racism so you stuff that comment,  you however simply seem to dismiss it as well they are tories what can you expect so are you allowing a pass to them, shrugging it off as well they are tories we expect that creates a climate were its ok because they are tories rather than defending the Muslim community in the same way as you might defend any other community under attack.  Is that a level playing field..

 Corbyn is a shithouse, and also all people who indulge in any form of racism are shithouses as well simple as that.

I actually created this thread to point out how fucking mental politics has become.

[TepidT2O]

No idea why, but the title is bonkers

[Yorkykopite]

Look, let's say you go to your GP for an appointment.

It could be called a Private Consultation in that no other patient is present in the room when you see the Doctor though Private here in the UK could also imply that the GP was seeing you outside of the NHS and would bill you privately for his diagnosis of you.

It could probably also be called or at least implied as a Confidential Consultation in that what is discussed remains only between yourself and your Doctor ... and obviously the Health Service via your records...

And according to your rules, you claim that since Private and Secret are synonyms, they are completely interchangeable so it could also be called a Secret Consultation.

Now it's true that what is discussed during the consultation would perhaps remain secret but it would also infer that the no one else knew of your consultation Which is patently absurd since you would have had to book the appointment so the Practice manager/receptionist would also know as well as anyone else in the waiting room, so Confidential would be a better word to describe that.

As I have just demonstrated, while Private and Secret may be synonyms (meaning describing similar things), a Private meeting implies a quite different meaning from a Secret meeting.

If you don't believe me then it's simple, try ringing your Surgery and ask for a Secret appointment with your Doctor and see what happens.

It's context that always matters with words as it's what provides or implies a particular meaning to what is actually being described.

And as to what started this off and what you defended, I believe that writer deliberately changed the text from Private to Secret in an attempt to convey an element of furtiveness about the meeting and to thus fit in with his obsession of there being secretive Jewish control over things going on in the world ie NWO/PEZ bollocks.

Private detective: Some former copper who has taken early retirement and makes a bit of money chasing cheating husbands and faithless wives.

Secret policeman: A state employee, most commonly an employee of a Fascist or Communist or Theocratic state who operates outside the law and arrests, tortures and kills dissidents.

[The Gulleysucker]

No idea why, but the title is bonkers

It's a bit Catch 22'ish.

[Yorkykopite]

PS The British Cabinet meets in private. It does not meet in secret.

As does the Labour party's National Executive Committee.

It's obvious from the context of that tweet that the substition of the word "secret" for "private" was intended to suggest something nefarious and something conspiratorial. It doesn't involve much of a leap of imagination to believe that the writer thinks that's what Jews are always like - and wants his readers to think it too.

For what it's worth Mike Pompeo is an idiot.   

[Alan_X]

I didn't write the English language.  I'm just telling you how it is.  If you want to discuss things further I suggest you write to Oxford, Cambridge and Collins, and give them your thoughts.

Synonyms are just words that can be used to replace a said word that has the same, or similar meaning:

synonym
noun [ C ]
uk ​ /ˈsɪn.ə.nɪm/ us ​ /ˈsɪn.ə.nɪm/
​

C2 a word or phrase that has the same or  nearly the same meaning as another word or phrase in the same language:
The words "small" and "little" are synonyms.

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/synonym

QED.

Synonyms are not interchangable. You cannot substitute 'secret' for 'private' without changing the meaning.

Hoist by his own petard.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

This thread title is very misleading and could cause certain posters pursue another campaign to get a thread shut down 

[Mumm-Ra]

WTF am I reading here

[WhereAngelsPlay]

WTF am I reading here

It's beyond the pale 

[Alan_X]

There may or may not have not been shady underlying reasons why they chose to substitute the words they did.

I just wanted to highlight that there was a perfectly legitimate reason for using them too, that's all.

And we're pointing out that there is not. Substituting secret for private is consciously implying something nefarious is happening. Especially in the context of a meeting involving Jews. The only excuse would be if the writer is an idiot or illiterate, which given it's probably from Sqwawkbox is highly likely.

[Alan_X]

WTF am I reading here

You're reading people defending anti-semitism in Labour, people defending other people for defending anti-semitism in Labour, a chunk of whataboutery, and someone defending the use of anti-semitic tropes in their report of a meeting between Mike Pompeo and a Jewish organisation in the US.

Standard fare really...

[Jiminy Cricket]

Look, let's say you go to your GP for an appointment.

It could be called a Private Consultation in that no other patient is present in the room when you see the Doctor though Private here in the UK could also imply that the GP was seeing you outside of the NHS and would bill you privately for his diagnosis of you.

It could probably also be called or at least implied as a Confidential Consultation in that what is discussed remains only between yourself and your Doctor ... and obviously the Health Service via your records...

And according to your rules, you claim that since Private and Secret are synonyms, they are completely interchangeable so it could also be called a Secret Consultation.

Now it's true that what is discussed during the consultation would perhaps remain secret but it would also infer that the no one else knew of your consultation Which is patently absurd since you would have had to book the appointment so the Practice manager/receptionist would also know as well as anyone else in the waiting room, so Confidential would be a better word to describe that.

Imply.

As I have just demonstrated, while Private and Secret may be synonyms (meaning describing similar things), a Private meeting implies a quite different meaning from a Secret meeting.

If you don't believe me then it's simple, try ringing your Surgery and ask for a Secret appointment with your Doctor and see what happens.

It's context that always matters with words as it's what provides or implies a particular meaning to what is actually being described.

And as to what started this off and what you defended, I believe that writer deliberately changed the text from Private to Secret in an attempt to convey an element of furtiveness about the meeting and to thus fit in with his obsession of there being secretive Jewish control over things going on in the world ie NWO/PEZ bollocks.

Absolutely, this. Bad faith reporting of a closed door, private (invited guests) meeting. Of course this is not the same thing as a secret meeting.

[Red-Soldier]

And we're pointing out that there is not. Substituting secret for private is consciously implying something nefarious is happening. Especially in the context of a meeting involving Jews. The only excuse would be if the writer is an idiot or illiterate, which given it's probably from Sqwawkbox is highly likely.

And I am pointing out that there could be.

It is up to you if you choose to ignore what I've said.  I'm sure Cambridge, Oxford and Collins will be interested to hear your thoughts 

[Red-Soldier]

You're reading people defending anti-semitism in Labour, people defending other people for defending anti-semitism in Labour, a chunk of whataboutery, and someone defending the use of anti-semitic tropes in their report of a meeting between Mike Pompeo and a Jewish organisation in the US.

Standard fare really...

That's bollocks!  I am not defending the use of AS tropes.  They are your words, not mine. My family helped many Jewish people escape Nazi occupied territory during WW2, and I detest all forms of descrimination/persecution, so you can do one with that shit!

I am just saying that the use of those words may not be what you are implying.  That is all.  They could be talking about dogs and cats, I'd still make the same point.  I am just highlighting that your assumption could be wrong.

Yes I am being a pedant, I am making the point simply because I can, and that I am right.

[Jiminy Cricket]

And I am pointing out that there could be.

It is up to you if you choose to ignore what I've said.  I'm sure Cambridge, Oxford and Collins will be interested to hear your thoughts 

Christ. A thesaurus is just lists of words which share some similarities in meaning. It does not mean that they are directly interchangeable. I find a thesaurus useful for when the right does not spring to mind - I look up words which share some similarities, but are not quite right. I look them up in a thesaurus.

Maybe this will help:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesaurus

[Jiminy Cricket]

That's bollocks!  I am not defending the use of AS tropes.  They are your words, not mine.

I am just saying that the use of those words may not be what you are implying.  That is all.  They could be talking about dogs and cats, I'd still make the same point.  I am just highlighting that your assumption could be wrong.

Yes I am being a pedant, I am making the point simply because I can, and that I am right.

No. As this would imply that you are indeed correct. You are not.