Author Topic: A Song of Ice and Fire  (Read 42221 times)

Online rushyman

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #560 on: May 20, 2019, 05:16:40 pm »
Lazy?! How many 400,000+ word, 1000-page character-heavy fantasy novels have you written, tell me?

And it's not like he's been twiddling his thumbs since 2011. He's released novels and novellas alongside writing the next SIF book.

He had 8 years to finish that. Lazy possibly isn’t the right word amd you’re right is probably unfair as he’s obviously meticulous. They started the project for tv in 07 thinking he’d be well finished

It must be a nightmare for his agents and the production companies him not finishing. ESP since he’s been doing other stuff as you say

Screen writers rush job last episode has left a bitter taste in a few mouths probably

PS using the well worn  ‘how many have you written’ . Come on. That means this thread and the other one should be empty. This entire site almost in fact
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 05:21:33 pm by rushyman »
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Online rushyman

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #561 on: May 20, 2019, 05:20:05 pm »

Well that sure told him  ;D.


You're not allowed to criticise GRRM Rushy.

It’s difficult coming into a never before trodden thread

Stepping of toes is going to happen ;D

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Offline tommy LFC

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #562 on: May 20, 2019, 05:20:10 pm »
Damn.

I honestly thought he’d have at least one ready to go go as soon as the TV show ended. Would have been the best time to ensure maximum sales.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #563 on: May 20, 2019, 05:36:16 pm »
Damn.

I honestly thought he’d have at least one ready to go go as soon as the TV show ended. Would have been the best time to ensure maximum sales.

I'm half expecting him to drop it this week,be funny if he does and there hasn't been any leaks from the printers.
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Online rushyman

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #564 on: May 20, 2019, 05:41:34 pm »
I'm half expecting him to drop it this week,be funny if he does and there hasn't been any leaks from the printers.

As I understand it He hasn’t even started what follows from what we’ve seen ?
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #565 on: May 20, 2019, 05:44:29 pm »
As I understand it He hasn’t even started what follows from what we’ve seen ?

I think he has most of The Winds of Winter written or at least he said he had ages ago,not sure what follows as I'm not reading them until he gets them both finished.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #566 on: May 20, 2019, 05:57:18 pm »

Well that sure told him  ;D.


You're not allowed to criticise GRRM Rushy.

Criticize away if it's justified. I have plenty of criticism of his work while still enjoying it - I'm certainly no GRRM fanboy.

I'm coming more from the perspective of calling an author lazy because they're not churning out books like a machine. It took me 18months to write the first draft of a 70k word novel. As enjoyable as it was, it was arduous. It would take me years to write something as colossal as what GRRM has undertaken - especially if I was also having to write companion novels, screenplays, editing as well as attend book tours, conduct interviews and attend fan conventions which I'm sure takes a lot out of a 70-year-old.

It's one thing to want the next book (I certainly wish it was done) but it's an entitlement to have a go at the author for taking his time. The TV series is a great example of how time and care should be taken with complex storytelling.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #567 on: May 20, 2019, 06:06:06 pm »
I think he has most of The Winds of Winter written or at least he said he had ages ago,not sure what follows as I'm not reading them until he gets them both finished.

Wind of winter is what we’ve (sort of) seen I thought

A Dream of Spring is the last story no one knows is what I’ve read I may be wrong
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Offline thejbs

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #568 on: May 20, 2019, 06:11:56 pm »
PS using the well worn  ‘how many have you written’ . Come on. That means this thread and the other one should be empty. This entire site almost in fact

The "have you written" argument is with respect to the writing process. Critiquing a book's content without writing one is fine, critiquing the process or describing an author as lazy is something altogether different.

It is important to contextualise what a colossal undertaking a book like this is. Even if GRRM wrote 1000 perfect words every single day, without the need of editing, one of his books would take over a year. LOTR, which clocks in a little longer than Dance with Dragons, took 12 years to write and a further 6 years from that to get published (during which time parts were revised and rewritten). Gone with the wind is around the same length as Dance with Dragons and it took over a decade.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #569 on: May 20, 2019, 07:00:26 pm »
The "have you written" argument is with respect to the writing process. Critiquing a book's content without writing one is fine, critiquing the process or describing an author as lazy is something altogether different.

It is important to contextualise what a colossal undertaking a book like this is. Even if GRRM wrote 1000 perfect words every single day, without the need of editing, one of his books would take over a year. LOTR, which clocks in a little longer than Dance with Dragons, took 12 years to write and a further 6 years from that to get published (during which time parts were revised and rewritten). Gone with the wind is around the same length as Dance with Dragons and it took over a decade.

I agree and you did kind of omit my retraction in your quote lol

I think the main problem is the ending of the tv show. It’s a bit of a mess even viewing it as just a tv show and if you didn’t know it was also a book series you could tell it was a let’s get this done job

I think the Author will be hugely dissapointed with it after all this is his story being shown to a huge audience. I think the moral of the story is don’t start a tv show if the story isn’t done

I will say they probably thought him being 16 years ahead of them in ‘07 gave them enough time though...
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #570 on: May 20, 2019, 07:29:22 pm »
So many people just flat out don't understand what it's like to write something.

Some authors stick to a word count they reach everyday and are able to churn out books whilst still keeping their standards up. Others need the conditions to be exactly right. In theory such writers could finish a whole book in a day, but neither them or the reader would be happy with it.

Asking a writer to write faster is sort of like telling a painter to churn out another painting. It shows such an ignorance of how creativity works, how delicate the process can be and how fleeting moments of inspiration are.

With Martin you have to take into account that his life is completely different to how it was when he began. That would be the case with anyone, as we all get older and change. However he has the added complication in that he was unknown when the first titles were released and now is now one of the most famous writers in the world. There were no expectations when he began, and now millions of fans are waiting impatiently. He is a different person leading a completely different life.

The lengthy delay between books is a sign that he cares about his creation more than anyone else.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #571 on: May 20, 2019, 09:02:38 pm »
So many people just flat out don't understand what it's like to write something.

Some authors stick to a word count they reach everyday and are able to churn out books whilst still keeping their standards up. Others need the conditions to be exactly right. In theory such writers could finish a whole book in a day, but neither them or the reader would be happy with it.

Asking a writer to write faster is sort of like telling a painter to churn out another painting. It shows such an ignorance of how creativity works, how delicate the process can be and how fleeting moments of inspiration are.

With Martin you have to take into account that his life is completely different to how it was when he began. That would be the case with anyone, as we all get older and change. However he has the added complication in that he was unknown when the first titles were released and now is now one of the most famous writers in the world. There were no expectations when he began, and now millions of fans are waiting impatiently. He is a different person leading a completely different life.

The lengthy delay between books is a sign that he cares about his creation more than anyone else.

That’s brilliantly put. Very succinct

It’s been one of my fondest wishes to become a writer but somehow I can never get round to it. I’m certainly not ignorant to the chores of writing. Your point about pre and post fame I think hits the nail on the head. Much like the dreaded 2nd or 3rd album for a band
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Offline Redcap

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #572 on: May 21, 2019, 06:06:09 am »
The "have you written" argument is with respect to the writing process. Critiquing a book's content without writing one is fine, critiquing the process or describing an author as lazy is something altogether different.

It is important to contextualise what a colossal undertaking a book like this is. Even if GRRM wrote 1000 perfect words every single day, without the need of editing, one of his books would take over a year. LOTR, which clocks in a little longer than Dance with Dragons, took 12 years to write and a further 6 years from that to get published (during which time parts were revised and rewritten). Gone with the wind is around the same length as Dance with Dragons and it took over a decade.

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/predicting-when-game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-will-come-out-with-his-next-book/

Fivethirtyeight did a jokey article about this all the way back in 2014. It's jokey, but it still has some half decent analysis in it, if only because it includes the rate at which he's done previous books.

He's never written more than 700 (final) words a day while writing this series. At his fastest, when he had a cohesive plan, he pumped out A Storm of Swords at a rate of around 673 words a day (incidentally also undoubtedly the best book of the series).

For 'Feast' and 'Dance' his speed was more around 150-200 words a day.

'Dance' was 415,000 words. If "Winds" is the same length, and he wrote at the slowest speed he's written one of these so far (145 words/day, for 'GoT'), he would have finished about 6 days ago (calculating 145 words a day from, for the sake of argument, the release date of 'Dance': 12 July 2019).

If he's down to about 2/3 of his slowest ever speed, to about 100 words a day (which I think most writers would agree, is slow), to produce a work the same length as 'Dance', 'Winds' will take 11 years and we'll get something in around 2022.

I don't think GRRM is lazy, but I think we should dispense with the idea that he's being held to the speed expectations of some sort of fantasy-writing robot. He's not been a fast writer in the past. Currently he's a slow writer. But there's no point in feeling upset or unhappy or defensive about it, because it's entirely out of our control. The guy is who he is, and he'll work at the speed at which he works. He's accountable ultimately only to himself and we'll get the book (or not) when it's finished.

And here's another article which hilariously projected an early 2017 finish date:

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/heres-the-best-new-projection-for-when-the-next-game-of-thrones-book-will-be-done/

« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 06:09:30 am by Redcap »

Offline blert596

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #573 on: May 21, 2019, 11:52:26 am »
I think he'll rush the last book and have it down to about 6 chapters.


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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #574 on: May 21, 2019, 12:26:02 pm »
I don't think he's lazy, but it's infuriating that he's been churning out spin-off books whilst the people who bought his books and invested in his story have had to wait almost a decade for the next instalment.

To me it shows a disregard for the people whose money has given him his great life.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #575 on: May 21, 2019, 02:12:18 pm »
I don't think he's lazy, but it's infuriating that he's been churning out spin-off books whilst the people who bought his books and invested in his story have had to wait almost a decade for the next instalment.

To me it shows a disregard for the people whose money has given him his great life.


What made him rich was HBO buying the rights to his story and making him into a celebrity with their successful adaptation (at least in the early seasons). Fantasy writers typically don't get rich off of their book sales alone.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #576 on: May 21, 2019, 03:11:20 pm »
What made him rich was HBO buying the rights to his story and making him into a celebrity with their successful adaptation (at least in the early seasons). Fantasy writers typically don't get rich off of their book sales alone.

Without his book sales and the resultant loyal fanbase (who would be nailed on to watch the tv series), he wouldn't have got the HBO gig.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #577 on: May 21, 2019, 03:14:34 pm »
Without his book sales and the resultant loyal fanbase (who would be nailed on to watch the tv series), he wouldn't have got the HBO gig.


I don't know, I just don't like this idea that he owes his book readers as a sort of transaction because they've paid for his stories thus far. It's a shame, and I'm pretty sure he won't ever finish the story, but I don't think it's out of disregard for his readers, it's probably just an inability to maintain commitment to the hard work required. I say this as someone who has also waited a long time for the books, it would be nice, but I don't like to think of authors in debt to me because I paid for their product :)
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Offline SamAteTheRedAcid

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #578 on: May 21, 2019, 03:20:49 pm »
I don't know, I just don't like this idea that he owes his book readers as a sort of transaction because they've paid for his stories thus far. It's a shame, and I'm pretty sure he won't ever finish the story, but I don't think it's out of disregard for his readers, it's probably just an inability to maintain commitment to the hard work required. I say this as someone who has also waited a long time for the books, it would be nice, but I don't like to think of authors in debt to me because I paid for their product :)

This for me, yes. I am disappointed but I can't begrudge him enjoying his success. And its fucking hard to write books, especially mad convoluted ones like ASOIAF.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #579 on: May 21, 2019, 03:27:04 pm »
I don't know, I just don't like this idea that he owes his book readers as a sort of transaction because they've paid for his stories thus far. It's a shame, and I'm pretty sure he won't ever finish the story, but I don't think it's out of disregard for his readers, it's probably just an inability to maintain commitment to the hard work required. I say this as someone who has also waited a long time for the books, it would be nice, but I don't like to think of authors in debt to me because I paid for their product :)


I personally think he's struggling with how to marry up the multitude of story arcs he's so far created. There's probably twice as many as the tv series condensed it into, and B&W couldn't even intertwine them properly as the book material ran out. B&W just seemed to ignore half the backstories, time-travel the key people, and make the set-piece battles take centre stage in the hope of distracting enough people from noticing.

Martin isn't going to have that luxury and I can appreciate it's a gargantuan task. But he's not been short of time, and has done other projects in the meantime (including publishing other books). It's his life, but that doesn't mean fans of the books can't be frustrated that he's taking an eon to get the next book out.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #580 on: May 21, 2019, 03:44:16 pm »
Heavily rumored to be working/writing for a non-GOT/ASOIAF videogame.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #582 on: May 21, 2019, 10:03:20 pm »
Even though the books will be different, I think most of the character conclusions will be the same, which does suck a little bit. We'll be reading these new books knowing Bran will become King, Jon will kill Dany, Arya will sail west etc. They spoiled the books ending in such a shittty way, it felt so small and inconsequential in the end.

Offline Redcap

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #583 on: May 22, 2019, 01:08:46 am »
I don't know, I just don't like this idea that he owes his book readers as a sort of transaction because they've paid for his stories thus far. It's a shame, and I'm pretty sure he won't ever finish the story, but I don't think it's out of disregard for his readers, it's probably just an inability to maintain commitment to the hard work required. I say this as someone who has also waited a long time for the books, it would be nice, but I don't like to think of authors in debt to me because I paid for their product :)

I don't think of it as a transactional thing. It's got nothing to do with the money side of things. It's more like an emotional pact with his fans that he would finish the story he started.

With that said, I've never thought that he doesn't intend to deliver on that pact. I'm sure he does. But as a writer he's clearly not as disciplined as some and thinks he can be all things to all people and still do what he set out to do, whereas the reality is he's less likely to be able to finish the series because he does about 8 different things at the same time.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #584 on: May 22, 2019, 06:39:10 am »
Even though the books will be different, I think most of the character conclusions will be the same, which does suck a little bit. We'll be reading these new books knowing Bran will become King, Jon will kill Dany, Arya will sail west etc. They spoiled the books ending in such a shittty way, it felt so small and inconsequential in the end.

The realisation that GRRM didn't get to complete his story made me genuinely sad. I would have probably been sad regardless of whether the show finished on a bang or not but at least if it did, it would have been less maddening than now with the way the show has gone out on a whimper.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #585 on: May 22, 2019, 06:47:54 am »
The closest thing to a finishing date for WoW from GRRM that we've heard of for a while.

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/21/thanks-new-zealand/
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #586 on: May 22, 2019, 07:21:04 am »
The closest thing to a finishing date for WoW from GRRM that we've heard of for a while.

http://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2019/05/21/thanks-new-zealand/

I'm going to take that as permission to freak out about Winds dropping next year. I might even start re-reading towards the end of this year.

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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #587 on: May 22, 2019, 07:34:37 am »
I'm going to take that as permission to freak out about Winds dropping next year. I might even start re-reading towards the end of this year.

So fucking exciting. Maybe with another re-read, I can put the bitter aftertaste of the dogshite that the show turned into the back of my mind.
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Re: A Song of Ice and Fire
« Reply #588 on: May 27, 2019, 08:26:04 pm »
Wow. All of the online fandom folk have all fallen out with each other.

A timely reminder that online communities are a paper thin illusion waiting to be revealed as a tissue of lies. Sleep tight. ;D
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