Topic: SPOILERS The Chainless Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon Discussion

[zebenzui]

Have you been paying attention to the last few seasons? There's a reason why this show is marching on and the books are snowed in by the Winds of Winter.

This is a massive, flawed show. But there are lots of things to enjoy about it. The set pieces. The outrageously talented cast. Some genuinely sharp scenes here and there. The sheer spectacle of the thing.

I think you're probably barking up the wrong tree if you thought this was ever going to be a completely faithful adaptation of the books, particularly when the showrunners ran out of material to go with. That's generally a risky expectation with any adaptation, really. But this show went off on its own tangent years ago.

I did not expect it to follow the books. In fact I appreciated that the show offered emotional fanservice that the books were unlikely to provide (stark reunions for a start).

But I at least expected the show to portray a story consistent with the rules set forth within itself. As well as to follow not particularly onerous logical threads.

None of my complaints are about deviation from the source material. They're about events that are stupid and infeasible.

[jooneyisdagod]

Oh wow... so many complaints about the show not keeping up with its internal logic. This is exactly what I've been banging on about for so long that Lastrador now hates it!

I think D&D have been indulging in rampant fan service since they went past the books at the cost of the internal logic of the world they portrayed in the first four seasons. It is still the only tv I watch and that's mostly because the underlying story is just so damn good, but so many pivotal concepts that were introduced in the first few seasons have been totally cast aside. Now more than ever, viewers have begun to start noticing it in a way that book readers have for a while.

On the issue of feminism in GOT, I thought this was an interesting read.
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/07/game-of-thrones-season-7-feminism/535110/

I do agree with the assessment that the writers are trying to make the show appeal to viewers of today by inserting today's moral values into that society, but this is one of the issues I have had with it because GOT's world has its own version of feminism that befits the society it is set in. Goes back to the point I was making about fan appeasement.

[stewil007]

Also...

Spoiler

So Jon Snow was able to reach Dragonstone castle by boat all the way in the South quicker than Bran could be brought back to Winterfell? Err...

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The winds were kind

[S]

Also...

Spoiler

So Jon Snow was able to reach Dragonstone castle by boat all the way in the South quicker than Bran could be brought back to Winterfell? Err...

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Spoiler

The scenes that episodes are made up of do not necessarily happen at the same time. Again, at this point in the narrative it would be pointless to show Jon Snow travelling to Dragonstone. Just because the scene with Bran occurs later in the episode does not mean he arrived there after Jon reached the South.

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[Phil M]

Spoiler

The scenes that episodes are made up of do not necessarily happen at the same time. Again, at this point in the narrative it would be pointless to show Jon Snow travelling to Dragonstone. Just because the scene with Bran occurs later in the episode does not mean he arrived there after Jon reached the South.

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Spoiler

Maybe so but that's not how it unfolded given the Sansa taking control scenes etc.

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[S]

Spoiler

Maybe so but that's not how it unfolded given the Sansa taking control scenes etc.

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There's no way to tell that Sansa walking around Winterfell is a day or a week or a month after Jon has left. I think people are trying to look for inconsistencies in how the narrative handles travelling times, when in actual fact the writers have correctly made the decision that the show is more enjoyable if things are presented in a non-linear way.

It's necessary to stretch narrative time in some places and condense it in others. Cersei and Jaime were shown in Kings Landing in the very first episode of Season 1. In their next scene in the same episode, they were at Winterfell.

I love the show but I can accept it's flaws. Criticisms of the acting, dialogue or cameos is fine. I just think that some are guilty of trying to find any little weakness they can and are applying the wrong kind of logic to the narrative cycle.

[Phil M]

I love the show but I can accept it's flaws. Criticisms of the acting, dialogue or cameos is fine. I just think that some are guilty of trying to find any little weakness they can and are applying the wrong kind of logic to the narrative cycle.

And on the other hand, some can't accept any criticism of the show at all.

[S]

And on the other hand, some can't accept any criticism of the show at all.

Yep, I'm sure there's plenty of those as well.

[DangerScouse]

I love the show but I can accept it's flaws. Criticisms of the acting, dialogue or cameos is fine. I just think that some are guilty of trying to find any little weakness they can and are applying the wrong kind of logic to the narrative cycle.

Couldn't agree with more with this. Ultimately it'll be their loss, getting bogged down and annoyed over largely trivial matters, which will spoil their appreciation for arguably the greatest show on tv.

[Clayton Bigsby]

If I was Dany I would done 'shock and awe' and rolled into kings landing. From looking unbeatable I now cant see a way Dany wins.

Loving the episodes as ridiculous as they are. When GOT finishes I hope this gives studios greenlight to adapt other books of its ilk

[JHova2427]

If I was Dany I would done 'shock and awe' and rolled into kings landing. From looking unbeatable I now cant see a way Dany wins.

Loving the episodes as ridiculous as they are. When GOT finishes I hope this gives studios greenlight to adapt other books of its ilk

The writers are cheating here.  That is the whole point.  She looks unbeatable... we make her look dead to rights... she turns to the dragons and decimates the enemy.  She literally has history to look back on, and she still messed it up.  Her ancestor came over with three dragons, forced lords to bend the knee until no lords remained and voila a Targaryen dynasty for centuries. 

The people supposedly loved Aegon as well so I am not sure about the whole making enemies of the small folk.  Win power first, take care of the common folk second.  We all know how fickle they are. 

[S]

The writers are cheating here.  That is the whole point.  She looks unbeatable... we make her look dead to rights... she turns to the dragons and decimates the enemy.  She literally has history to look back on, and she still messed it up.  Her ancestor came over with three dragons, forced lords to bend the knee until no lords remained and voila a Targaryen dynasty for centuries. 

The people supposedly loved Aegon as well so I am not sure about the whole making enemies of the small folk.  Win power first, take care of the common folk second.  We all know how fickle they are.

Yeah I think this is more or less how it will play out. Victories in Game of Thrones are usually won at great expense. I expect Daenerys will come out on top, but in doing so she will also lose a lot on the way.

[Schmidt]

The writers are cheating here.  That is the whole point.  She looks unbeatable... we make her look dead to rights... she turns to the dragons and decimates the enemy.  She literally has history to look back on, and she still messed it up.  Her ancestor came over with three dragons, forced lords to bend the knee until no lords remained and voila a Targaryen dynasty for centuries. 

The people supposedly loved Aegon as well so I am not sure about the whole making enemies of the small folk.  Win power first, take care of the common folk second.  We all know how fickle they are. 

I think her fathers reputation is heavily influencing her approach. The people in Westeros don't know her, all they know is that she's the daughter of the king who lost his mind and burned people alive because he felt like it. She seems worried that if she rocks up to the capital on the back of a dragon and burns the place down she'll be building her empire on fear, not love.

[paddysour]

The writers are cheating here.  That is the whole point.  She looks unbeatable... we make her look dead to rights... she turns to the dragons and decimates the enemy.  She literally has history to look back on, and she still messed it up.  Her ancestor came over with three dragons, forced lords to bend the knee until no lords remained and voila a Targaryen dynasty for centuries. 

The people supposedly loved Aegon as well so I am not sure about the whole making enemies of the small folk.  Win power first, take care of the common folk second.  We all know how fickle they are.

She doesn't have the control over the dragons that Aegon had though, which is why they aren't using them at the moment

[Brian Blessed]

Spoiler

Jon getting to Dragonstone faster than Bran to Winterfell wasn't nearly as problematic to me as Sam finding Jorah in E1, curing him in E2 and then Jorah being up and about in E3, as that felt like it covered days, and during that time Euron was up and down the coast. But I don't think it can be helped, so accept it for what it is.

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This is a pretty fair article on how the show has changed since it started, teleporting included. I don't agree with all of it, but there are some decent points.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/07/31/game-of-thrones-5-ways-the-show-has-changed-for-the-worse/#4c80e51d7ba3

[JHova2427]

Spoiler

Jon getting to Dragonstone faster than Bran to Winterfell wasn't nearly as problematic to me as Sam finding Jorah in E1, curing him in E2 and then Jorah being up and about in E3, as that felt like it covered days, and during that time Euron was up and down the coast. But I don't think it can be helped, so accept it for what it is.

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This is a pretty fair article on how the show has changed since it started, teleporting included. I don't agree with all of it, but there are some decent points.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...-show-has-changed-for-the-worse/#5d49c44d7ba3

Getting a "can't find the page" notice.

[JHova2427]

I think her fathers reputation is heavily influencing her approach. The people in Westeros don't know her, all they know is that she's the daughter of the king who lost his mind and burned people alive because he felt like it. She seems worried that if she rocks up to the capital on the back of a dragon and burns the place down she'll be building her empire on fear, not love.

So?  Give the common people a couple loaves of bread and protection, and they will shrug and keep going.  As long as you can easily quell your foes it doesn't really matter.  Win favor later.

She doesn't have the control over the dragons that Aegon had though, which is why they aren't using them at the moment

Fair point there.  Another failure on her part allowing them to be chained up rather than training and forming a better connection with them. 

[Brian Blessed]

Getting a "can't find the page" notice.

Let me try again...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2017/07/31/game-of-thrones-5-ways-the-show-has-changed-for-the-worse/#4c80e51d7ba3

That one works.

[paddysour]

So?  Give the common people a couple loaves of bread and protection, and they will shrug and keep going.  As long as you can easily quell your foes it doesn't really matter.  Win favor later.
Fair point there.  Another failure on her part allowing them to be chained up rather than training and forming a better connection with them.

Imagine if she could control them. Instead of sweeping into Kings Landing breathing fire, she drops crates of food and supplies. Common problem won over instantly 

[Schmidt]

So?  Give the common people a couple loaves of bread and protection, and they will shrug and keep going.  As long as you can easily quell your foes it doesn't really matter.  Win favor later.
Fair point there.  Another failure on her part allowing them to be chained up rather than training and forming a better connection with them. 

I'm not saying she's right, just that I think it's heavily affecting her judgement.

[El Lobo]

I read a spoiler mistakenly somewhere (cant remember where) which basically chronicled what happens over the course of this season, and its annoyingly accurate so far.

[Schmidt]

I read a spoiler mistakenly somewhere (cant remember where) which basically chronicled what happens over the course of this season, and its annoyingly accurate so far.

How do you make the mistake of reading spoilers for an entire season?

[Titi Camara]

Not sure if this is a spoiler or not but....

Spoiler

Cracking norks!

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[Zoomers]

Probably the best episode so far for s07.

[MattyBoy21]

Loved the episode, just one thought...

Spoiler

The commoners spitting on and throwing things at Ellaria Sand when Euron was walking her through the streets were the same commoners throwing things and spitting on Cersei during her walk of atonement. Why all of a sudden do they hate anyone who has wronged Cersei and laud Euron, her ally?

Would like to see more from the Hound, Bronn, Tormund & the army of the dead eventually too. Although I know it's difficult to check in on characters like that at the moment when there is so much to fit in to such a short space of time.

Anyway, interested to see where Jaime goes in the remaining 4 episodes. Seems only a matter of time before he kills Euron and/or Cersei in my opinion.

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[Brian Blessed]

Loved the episode, just one thought...

Spoiler

The commoners spitting on and throwing things at Ellaria Sand when Euron was walking her through the streets were the same commoners throwing things and spitting on Cersei during her walk of atonement. Why all of a sudden do they hate anyone who has wronged Cersei and laud Euron, her ally?

Would like to see more from the Hound, Bronn, Tormund & the army of the dead eventually too. Although I know it's difficult to check in on characters like that at the moment when there is so much to fit in to such a short space of time.

Anyway, interested to see where Jaime goes in the remaining 4 episodes. Seems only a matter of time before he kills Euron and/or Cersei in my opinion.

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Spoiler

The commoners are sheep.

One thing about that parade, when Euron talks about Theon, he says "what a twat!" and sounds exactly like David Brent.

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[zebenzui]

Couldn't agree with more with this. Ultimately it'll be their loss, getting bogged down and annoyed over largely trivial matters, which will spoil their appreciation for arguably the greatest show on tv.

It was my loss when Rome got cancelled. Would rather have had the proper 4 full seasons of that than GoT.

[El Lobo]

How do you make the mistake of reading spoilers for an entire season?

It was just a paragraphs worth, cant for the life of me remember where I saw it but it pretty much nailed what Jon Snow is gonna be doing this season.

[thegoodfella]

I'm not saying she's right, just that I think it's heavily affecting her judgement.

Not having a proper general is what's affecting everyone's judgement. Any general worth his salt would put the infantry (Unsullied, Dornish army and whatever Highgarden can muster) in the middle and flank it with the cavalry (Dothraki horsemen) and keep the forces together. Pick out the main host of Lannister army first, then lay siege to the capital. But nope, these are bumbling fools pretending to be fighting a war rather than actually fighting one. And where are the spies keeping an eye on the movement of enemy forces, you have a dragon, ride the damn thing and have eyes from above. And why didn't Olenna Tyrell summon Tarly and order him to get in line before the Lannisters got to him? Ah fuck it... I suppose the show needs people turn in to idiots for plot purposes rather than actual character development like before.

[JHova2427]

Not having a proper general is what's affecting everyone's judgement. Any general worth his salt would put the infantry (Unsullied, Dornish army and whatever Highgarden can muster) in the middle and flank it with the cavalry (Dothraki horsemen) and keep the forces together. Pick out the main host of Lannister army first, then lay siege to the capital. But nope, these are bumbling fools pretending to be fighting a war rather than actually fighting one. And where are the spies keeping an eye on the movement of enemy forces, you have a dragon, ride the damn thing and have eyes from above. And why didn't Olenna Tyrell summon Tarly and order him to get in line before the Lannisters got to him? Ah fuck it... I suppose the show needs people turn in to idiots for plot purposes rather than actual character development like before.

Why didn't Olenna just close the doors with all the Tyrell's amazing grain and just sit around for a couple months?

[jammy dodger]

Predictions:

Sansa will kill Littlefinger, but only after marrying him to gain The Vale
Jaime will kill Cersei because she refuses to yield while her people die, and he'll probably do it mid-coitus
Tyrion will doublecross Team Daenerys
Daenerys will be the main villain by the end

[TepidT2O]

With the appearance in the last episode, it's surely the case that

Spoiler

Jon Snow cannot any longer claim to be king of the north now that Ned Starks true son has turned up.
To be fair, he spent two seasons sitting under a fucking tree, so his pissed about a bit.

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[McrRed]

It was my loss when Rome got cancelled. Would rather have had the proper 4 full seasons of that than GoT.

That's the daftest thing I've read on here... and there's been some pretty daft stuff said.

[Brian Blessed]

With the appearance in the last episode, it's surely the case that

Spoiler

Jon Snow cannot any longer claim to be king of the north now that Ned Starks true son has turned up.
To be fair, he spent two seasons sitting under a fucking tree, so his pissed about a bit.

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Spoiler

Well Sansa did say he was the rightful heir, and he essentially renounced it.

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[McrRed]

Jesus Christ. The bitching and moaning. You're all daft as brushes.

Know what I do with a shit show? I jib it in. Not able to suspend disbelief? Knock it on the head. I dare ya. I double-dare ya.
No. Didn't think so.

Meanwhile. Lovin this show.

[Stockholm Syndrome]

Predictions:

Sansa will kill Littlefinger, but only after marrying him to gain The Vale
Jaime will kill Cersei because she refuses to yield while her people die, and he'll probably do it mid-coitus
Tyrion will doublecross Team Daenerys
Daenerys will be the main villain by the end

Jamie will stab Cersei in the back after she tries to burn kings landing with wildfire to stop Daenerys army

Daenerys will end up winning but not helping Jon Snow because he won't bend the knee - end up getting ousted by Varys for it

Bran is going to control a dragon (maybe the last living one) to help defeat the white walkers

Sansa will end up in some position of power - this whole season is to show her political development. Obvious one is Queen of the North, but if everyone with claim dies the people of Westeros may be able to tweak her to the iron throne (through being Joffrey or Tyrion's wife or something - when no one else is around you have to make someone ruler from any tenuous link)

[Popcorn]

Can't believe so many people are getting so caught up on timing issues, chronological issues.

Some people are far too cynical.. At the end of it all, it's a great tv show. Enjoy it for what it is.

[wellred82]

I wonder if Jon Snow will end up in bed with Danerys. I've got a feeling it's gonna happen.

[S]

Ha ha - it's so true. I've fucked off loads of stuff, even after multiple seasons when it went to shit in some cases. If you don't like GOT we are in a very literal golden age of TV right now, spend time on soemthing else.

Couldn't agree more. There's enough great shows that you could probably even find one in the same genre as GOT.

[zebenzui]

Jesus Christ. The bitching and moaning. You're all daft as brushes.

Know what I do with a shit show? I jib it in. Not able to suspend disbelief? Knock it on the head. I dare ya. I double-dare ya.
No. Didn't think so.

Jumped ship round about season 4. Rather inclined to do it again.

Actually started watching again just to get my fix because the sixth book is so long in the coming, but the show logic is so patchy it's absurd. If you're able to temporarily lobotomise yourself for every episode then I congratulate you.