Topic: Roberto Firmino

[CHOPPER]

Riddle me this, RAWK.  How can someone who has such an outrageously good first touch be such an abysmal finisher?

Their are lads who can chat the knickers of a bird, get them on the bed, knickers off, legs in the air and then fluff their lines, then there are lads who haven't got the first clue how to woo, yet smash a chicks back doors in at the first opportunity. So the moral of the riddle is - there are only a few of us, that can do all things well, so we may need to look at aquiring more shit woo'ers and less knicker whisperers.

[A-Bomb]

He truly is the glue that makes Mane and Salah work - however, somebody some weeks ago showed his stats overall were on the wane.

Now I like stats, as my day job demands it....however for footy, I use the eye test more - he's clearly not at the levels he had achieved perhaps 12 months ago.... I love Bobby, I think he's awesome, and I also see exactly what he has been bringing to the team which makes him integral....

But I don't see him as a leader, he doesn't grab games by the scruff when things are going bad recently - and force his game on the opposition - he also doesn't own tight games with important goals.

I'd like to see him take more responsibility when on the pitch these days if I'm honest.

[d.arn]

We wouldn't have won the league last season,  certainly not by the margin we did anyway, if this was actually true.

He literally played in every single league game last season.

In fact, he's only missed 5 league games since the 16/17-season. He might not have scored much in periods, but he's always been key to both our attacking and defensive play. And even in times when he's not been scoring, I'm sure he's been the first name Klopp put on the team sheet. He's never looked this lackluster and out of form in any of his previous seasons.

[wemmick]

He literally played in every single league game last season.

In fact, he's only missed 5 league games since the 16/17-season. He might not have scored much in periods, but he's always been key to both our attacking and defensive play. And even in times when he's not been scoring, I'm sure he's been the first name Klopp put on the team sheet. He's never looked this lackluster and out of form in any of his previous seasons.

Agreed. Firmino seems burnt out to me, physically and mentally. Just done right now. I don’t know what the solution is, but he can’t continue to play like this.

[Topwings!]

Why can't he put his foot through the ball?   That one-two with Robbo was a very presentable chance but he keeps slicing them very wide.   It just something he keeps doing regularly of late.

[WorldChampions]

We could live with his poor goal return when he was a pressing machine and making the rest of the attackers tick - these days the pressing is nothing like it used to be and he destroys attacks with sloppy and slow play. I think he needs a period of time on the bench, getting Jota back can't come soon enough.

[Egyptian36]

Can anyone find how many games he played the past two seasons with LFC and Brazil compared to players from other clubs ?

Sent from my MI 9 using Tapatalk

[Fromola]

We could live with his poor goal return when he was a pressing machine and making the rest of the attackers tick - these days the pressing is nothing like it used to be and he destroys attacks with sloppy and slow play. I think he needs a period of time on the bench, getting Jota back can't come soon enough.

If you've got a number 9 who's not scoring then he needs to be perfect at everything else. And you also need Salah and/or Mane to step up and score the goals that he isn't.

Neither of that is happening.

I think we're seeing a natural physical decline as he approaches 30 after running himself into the ground for the last 5 years for club and country.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

I have your back Bobby Lad - Always have, always will!

[Knight]

It's almost as if those people crowing for us to buy a 4th top quality attacker ever since Coutinho left were on to something when they suggested the number of minutes being expected of the front 3 weren't sustainable. He'll be back though, he's still boss.

[Circa1892]

I do think there’s a miles on the clock issue here that is only solved by a fairly prolonged rest from the first team.

Since the start of 17-18 he’s played the best part of 200 games for club and country (a quick google put it at about 180...).

Summer of 18 was the World Cup, Copa America in 19 and we know there was no summer last year. So that’s 200 games without a proper break. For someone who’s game is based around pressing. He’ll be mentally and physically tired and - as a striker who’s game isn’t built for goals he’s got that sort of unfair pressure to.

Football is full of people who’s game drops off a cliff in their late 20s when they’ve had too many games beforehand. Obviously some (like Rooney?) is about conditioning as much as anything - but there’s a reason sports players need rest. Maybe his best days are behind him - either way, once Jota is back he’s not a first choice starter for me.

[thejbs]

It's almost as if those people crowing for us to buy a 4th top quality attacker ever since Coutinho left were on to something when they suggested the number of minutes being expected of the front 3 weren't sustainable. He'll be back though, he's still boss.

We bought Jota in the summer and it’s just unfortunate he’s injured. The very top strikers will be in ridiculous wages and cost a ton but expected to spend plenty of time on the bench. That’s unlikely to transpire.

[lionel_messias]

He has played so so many matches. We should try and reduce his workload and if we're doing that, we also need to replicate what he gives to the team in either another player or different system.

[Fromola]

Peculiar post ? We're losing in the transfer market due to old sins.. When I see a starting line-up with Origi, Ox and Shaqiri I'm glad I still have some hair left.. We're a nice club and that is great, but why do we keep on paying millions to ox ? because he is nice, english - great sense of humour ? - and that is not laying into players and the club..

Jurgen is going to have to get ruthless now, if we want to challenge again.

[Fromola]

I do think there’s a miles on the clock issue here that is only solved by a fairly prolonged rest from the first team.

Since the start of 17-18 he’s played the best part of 200 games for club and country (a quick google put it at about 180...).

Summer of 18 was the World Cup, Copa America in 19 and we know there was no summer last year. So that’s 200 games without a proper break. For someone who’s game is based around pressing. He’ll be mentally and physically tired and - as a striker who’s game isn’t built for goals he’s got that sort of unfair pressure to.

Football is full of people who’s game drops off a cliff in their late 20s when they’ve had too many games beforehand. Obviously some (like Rooney?) is about conditioning as much as anything - but there’s a reason sports players need rest. Maybe his best days are behind him - either way, once Jota is back he’s not a first choice starter for me.

We'll see it more and more as players are forced to play more games in more and more competitions. We've got a front three all at that age together now, pushing 30.

The signs were that last season. It's not normal for your number 9 to go almost the whole season without a goal in the league at home, despite pretty much playing them all.

It's simplistic to say he just needs a rest. He's naturally slowing down, so can't carry the burden of chasing around like a loon for 90 minutes, leading the press in a Jurgen Klopp team. Not anymore. But if he's not scoring goals either then he needs to be spot on at everything else. He may benefit from a slower league (Serie A like Alexis Sanchez who had a similar decline). It's difficult for South American forwards in particular, with all the international demands on top.

[Timbo's Goals]

We really shouldn't have some members questioning whether others are supporters or not, simply because of an opinion they hold or because of their thumbnail picture, and then people taking sides on that.

What occurred earlier was bullying and there is no defence for bullying. There are no circumstances where that would/should be acceptable. If you are trying to justify bullying behaviour then we'll just agree to disagree, I don't think that is called for in my opinion.

Sorry fellow posters but can't let this one go. Approaching me 8th decade and the only time anyone has ever called me a bully. A c*nt maybe but a fucking bully!! Fuck me. Like most decent folk I despise every minute element of the term and all its connotations and ramifications.

Besides maybe in the light of the current Red malaise it's the exact right time to lay some cards on the table on this forum about what real supporting is meant to be about.



So let’s see if I’ve got this right Mr A.

On an open forum I posted my honest and robust gut opinion challenging the corresponding opinion of another poster [Naby Lad] concerning one of our tried and trusted players whom he was repeatedly calling into question as being no longer fit for the first team spot he has represented with such peerless aplomb for most of these past three seasons or so. You then proceed to cite me in full view of all as a bully because the opinion I expressed questioned the validity of that poster’s entitlement to term himself a real supporter of the club. 

As it is, my own particular gut opinion represents no idle attempt on my part to insult. Rather, it was to robustly challenge what I consider to be contemptible posting of this sort and happens to be borne out of the intrinsic Liverpudlian culture of support imbued within me from over 60 years following the Reds home and away - from the days of our Second Division suffering right through to exalted World Champion status. Namely that the likes of those who seek to so resolutely undermine the first team suitability of any tried and trusted Red’s player due to a drop in form or such like cannot in my long suffering red-tinted eyes consider themselves worthy of the term ‘Liverpool supporter’ in the literal and true sense of the word.

And yet that, in your seemingly aspiring erudite opinion, constitutes bullying?

Well Mr A, I happen to vehemently disagree with your assertion and furthermore I, too, am deeply offended just as Naby Lad manifestly was by my questioning of his credentials as a real supporter, by your overly simplistic dismissal of myself as a bully. I assure you I am not a bully; the complete opposite in fact – very frequently tried and tested. Indeed, I would say your own public submission that I am a bully is actually more akin to a form of bullying than my own rather more organic adherence to an intrinsic culture of loyally supporting our team, our tried and trusted managers and our tried and trusted players through thick and thin.

As it was, I actually apologized to Naby Lad because my post had clearly offended him. And in the cold light of day, once the red mist evoked by reading his many affirmations of Bobby’s alleged decline had cleared, I sought to diffuse the situation and attempt to explain from where my own feelings on such matters emanated. This was a post incidentally which you seem rather conveniently to have ignored – presumably because a bully apologising would not fit in very snugly with your bullying categorization of myself.

Nevertheless I stick by that apology and my regret at offending the lad. However, my apology does not alter one jot my opinion. Namely that supporters are there to support not undermine. Otherwise how can they possibly be termed supporters? Whether that be at the match or on forums such as these. We all know when things are going badly but piling on the negatives on those players and/or managers who have served us so peerlessly well is just not the way to go for a proper supporter.

Sure, discussions concerning player form and player preference are of course very much the meat and drink of football fans including myself. Where I personally draw the line and where I feel such talk begins to negate true supporter status is when it descends as in this instance to calling for the dropping or removal or worse of the particular tried and trusted club servant whether they be Roger Hunt, Bobby Firmino, Gerard Houllier or even Shanks himself.

These sort of clashes have gone on down the years and many who feel entitlement to slag certain players and managers have termed such supporters as myself who stand by those same players and managers as “Superfans” or “Super Supporters” who consider themselves a cut above those who express their forthright views for disposing of whoever happens not to be cutting the mustard. The stark reality, of course – an unpalatable one to the fickle fan - is that the likes of myself are by no stretch super in any way, shape or form. We are merely ordinary supporters as defined by the very term itself. With regard to those teams, players and managers who have earned our support we just ‘support’, often through gritted teeth but we do it nonetheless.

YNWA  Redmen.   

[vivabobbygraham]

I've scoured this thread looking for evidence of 'bullying'. The reason I did that is because I deal with it on a regular basis, physically, verbally and through the various social media platforms as part of my job in education. I abhor it, I witness its devastating effect, particularly on mental health. It has serious consequences.

It can also have serious consequences for the perpetrator. Whether in school, the workplace or online; exclusion, dismissal and even criminal charges can follow if proven. Sounds dramatic but when an allegation of bullying is made and prosecuted, there has to be zero tolerance if upheld. Rehabilitation and education should be offered but that's another conversation.

What can be just as deplorable is when an allegation of bullying is made that on investigation turns out to be false. Mud sticks. No matter that the actuality was more akin to 'handbags' or 'taking the piss' too far, what could have been resolved with a handshake or a hug turns into a nightmare for the accused... and here's the thing, who's being 'bullied' then?

The term 'bullied' has now become so diluted, so misused, it buries the real issue under an avalanche of virtue signalling and an 'always the victim' mentality. Tolerance is dead; long live intolerance!

When it comes to the reds, I can be intolerant, particularly as I'm old school kopite...and a grumpy, curmudgeonly old bugger to boot. I can lose my rag but I rarely bear a grudge. I don't slag off the team or the manager. I have opinions but am not opinionated, I hope. I consider myself special because I'm scouse. You don't have to be from Liverpool to be scouse, it's not the bow bells type of thing. But you have to love the City and you have to love the people in it. Bobby does, he's scouse hence his name now which he loves. So, you want to slag him off, call time on his career, sell him on? Then, fuck you and the horse you rode in on...if you wouldn't mind awfully old chap. 

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Interesting to read the last couple of pages.

Sadly it really encapsulates what the internet has become. I’m not going to get into the bullying allegations other than to make the point that it’s interesting to see how people who look fairly new to a forum feel as though they can come out with some fairly robust views that are the antithesis of what being a Liverpool fan actually means and then get upset when those who do understand it respond.

The desperation to “win” the argument was, and I’m paraphrasing here ......”you mean the Shankly that used to blank players”

Astonishing. So in order to score points in response to a post referencing Shankly’s values, Naby Lad sees fit to post a one liner with no context which was an attempt to cast doubt on Shanklys character.

I’ve seen some shit on this forum, but that is up there. Perhaps it’s my naivity though, I should realise that anyone and their character are fair game when it comes to justifying opinions. Because that’s what’s sacrosanct these days. Everyone must have their say, no matter how I’ll informed, ignorant or irrelevant it is.  Just witness the last few weeks in the USA for examples of ignorant witless gullible people having their opinion.

[liverbloke]

let's not forget that the word 'fan' comes from fanatic - a belief or behaviour involving uncritical zeal or an obsessive enthusiasm

sums up this place 

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Well said Timbo, Bobby, and Charlie.  Thoughtful, resilient and to the point, on point.

[mrantarctica]

Sorry fellow posters but can't let this one go. Approaching me 8th decade and the only time anyone has ever called me a bully. A c*nt maybe but a fucking bully!! Fuck me. Like most decent folk I despise every minute element of the term and all its connotations and ramifications.

Besides maybe in the light of the current Red malaise it's the exact right time to lay some cards on the table on this forum about what real supporting is meant to be about.



So let’s see if I’ve got this right Mr A.

On an open forum I posted my honest and robust gut opinion challenging the corresponding opinion of another poster [Naby Lad] concerning one of our tried and trusted players whom he was repeatedly calling into question as being no longer fit for the first team spot he has represented with such peerless aplomb for most of these past three seasons or so. You then proceed to cite me in full view of all as a bully because the opinion I expressed questioned the validity of that poster’s entitlement to term himself a real supporter of the club. 

As it is, my own particular gut opinion represents no idle attempt on my part to insult. Rather, it was to robustly challenge what I consider to be contemptible posting of this sort and happens to be borne out of the intrinsic Liverpudlian culture of support imbued within me from over 60 years following the Reds home and away - from the days of our Second Division suffering right through to exalted World Champion status. Namely that the likes of those who seek to so resolutely undermine the first team suitability of any tried and trusted Red’s player due to a drop in form or such like cannot in my long suffering red-tinted eyes consider themselves worthy of the term ‘Liverpool supporter’ in the literal and true sense of the word.

And yet that, in your seemingly aspiring erudite opinion, constitutes bullying?

Well Mr A, I happen to vehemently disagree with your assertion and furthermore I, too, am deeply offended just as Naby Lad manifestly was by my questioning of his credentials as a real supporter, by your overly simplistic dismissal of myself as a bully. I assure you I am not a bully; the complete opposite in fact – very frequently tried and tested. Indeed, I would say your own public submission that I am a bully is actually more akin to a form of bullying than my own rather more organic adherence to an intrinsic culture of loyally supporting our team, our tried and trusted managers and our tried and trusted players through thick and thin.

As it was, I actually apologized to Naby Lad because my post had clearly offended him. And in the cold light of day, once the red mist evoked by reading his many affirmations of Bobby’s alleged decline had cleared, I sought to diffuse the situation and attempt to explain from where my own feelings on such matters emanated. This was a post incidentally which you seem rather conveniently to have ignored – presumably because a bully apologising would not fit in very snugly with your bullying categorization of myself.

Nevertheless I stick by that apology and my regret at offending the lad. However, my apology does not alter one jot my opinion. Namely that supporters are there to support not undermine. Otherwise how can they possibly be termed supporters? Whether that be at the match or on forums such as these. We all know when things are going badly but piling on the negatives on those players and/or managers who have served us so peerlessly well is just not the way to go for a proper supporter.

Sure, discussions concerning player form and player preference are of course very much the meat and drink of football fans including myself. Where I personally draw the line and where I feel such talk begins to negate true supporter status is when it descends as in this instance to calling for the dropping or removal or worse of the particular tried and trusted club servant whether they be Roger Hunt, Bobby Firmino, Gerard Houllier or even Shanks himself.

These sort of clashes have gone on down the years and many who feel entitlement to slag certain players and managers have termed such supporters as myself who stand by those same players and managers as “Superfans” or “Super Supporters” who consider themselves a cut above those who express their forthright views for disposing of whoever happens not to be cutting the mustard. The stark reality, of course – an unpalatable one to the fickle fan - is that the likes of myself are by no stretch super in any way, shape or form. We are merely ordinary supporters as defined by the very term itself. With regard to those teams, players and managers who have earned our support we just ‘support’, often through gritted teeth but we do it nonetheless.

YNWA  Redmen.

If that's the way you feel then that's the way you feel. I didn't actually call you a bully, but you feel that I have - OK fair enough.

I pointed out what I thought was bullying behaviour - namely the act of responding to an argument that one does not agree with by calling into question the loyalty of another's support for the club and team and thereby placing that person in an 'inferior' position whilst holding oneself in a 'superior' position (indicated by the presumption of what a great former manager would have thought about the posters opinions, and by the use of the royal 'We'). In this case, the superior position being a 'better supporter' over a 'worse supporter'. The characteristics which define bullying are those which identify an imbalance of authority or power (on a supporters forum obviously better supporters have more power than worse supporters), and an intent to injure which in the case of your post is only intended to insult. You say, instead this was a robust challenge but personally, I don't see how if you had tried to put yourself in the shoes/eyes of whom you had addressed it to, how you would think they would be anything but offended. Read what you said originally out loud. What if someone had addressed that to you? Can you actually imagine any supporter on this forum receiving that and not being insulted?

A bully is someone who does these things over and again - and I have not called you that because I have highlighted just one instance which I thought was an example of bullying.

I think I have represented my argument fairly well in previous posts. But just to summarise briefly, a public Liverpool FC internet Forum is an entirely appropriately place for supporters to air their views about all sorts of things pertaining to the club and football, in this particular case a player - Bobby Firmino. I think there are a variety of opinions about what is considered an 'appropriate level of whinging' about our players when they aren't perhaps at their best. Some people will consider no amount of whinging appropriate, and others will allow as much whinging as anyone wants and anywhere in between. This is the nature of opinions, particularly on the internet. However, what is entirely inappropriate is to call out someone as lesser or inferior supporter because you disagree with their opinion, and with their stance on how much whinging should be allowed. One can probably argue whether that really is bullying or not bullying etc. but that is besides the point. Who is right after all? Have we actually set rules between LFC supporters about what you are allowed to do and not do and how much whinging is permissible? And who is the arbiter of who is a better supporter or worse supporter?

What was so wrong with just saying "... look I disagree with that chap's points and it's not really my thing to bag our players but if he wants to do it well then I'm not going to get involved with that, but to be honest I'm going to stick by our players until we have more justifiable reasons to criticise them so strongly than just a spot of poor form"  and just leave it at that? I mean, at the end of the day, it's just an Internet forum. People have opinions, you're not going to agree with all of them and some of them you are going to think are downright stupid. That's life...

Anyway, not much about Firmino in this post so I'll just leave it at that. Nice hearing all of you opinions, as always.

[smurfinaus]

So, whats the solution? Play him deeper?.

[Timbo's Goals]

So, you want to slag him off, call time on his career, sell him on? Then, fuck you and the horse you rode in on...if you wouldn't mind awfully old chap. 

"... look I disagree with that chap's points and it's not really my thing to bag our players but if he wants to do it well then I'm not going to get involved with that, but to be honest I'm going to stick by our players until we have more justifiable reasons to criticise them so strongly than just a spot of poor form"  and just leave it at that?

Hmmm....eeny meeny miny mo... now which of the two responses to criticisms of our wonderful amazing Bobby most accurately represents my own code of supporting this incredible unique footy club and its tried and trusted players and managers?

I wonder.

 

Mr A. With the greatest respect, it's clear we occupy entirely different planets when it comes to LFC with so little in common in our respective experiences of supporting this amazing peerless club. My own LFC is a club of huge peerless overriding emotion. An emotion which I share and inhabit deeply. And if I believe those who claim to be supporters of this club are falling short of living up to what that term 'supporter' stands for then I'll always reserve the right to level that accusation at them. It's not a case of being superior or inferior, better or worse. It's just supporting. If you choose to believe my approach constitutes bullying then that's your prerogative and as such it seems futile for us to engage any further on the matter as our perspectives lie so far apart. 

[mrantarctica]

Mr A. With the greatest respect, it's clear we occupy entirely different planets when it comes to LFC with so little in common in our respective experiences of supporting this amazing peerless club. My own LFC is a club of huge peerless overriding emotion. An emotion which I share and inhabit deeply. And if I believe those who claim to be supporters of this club are falling short of living up to what that term 'supporter' stands for then I'll always reserve the right to level that accusation at them. It's not a case of being superior or inferior, better or worse. It's just supporting. If you choose to believe my approach constitutes bullying then that's your prerogative and as such it seems futile for us to engage any further on the matter as our perspectives lie so far apart.

This is where I would also respectfully differ. While our experience of things might be entirely different, we occupy the same planet and reality that everyone else also shares. The only way forward for useful dialogue is through a shared understanding. I am also not trying to restrict your right to pass judgement on who you think is an adequate supporter and who is not. You are right about one thing though; further dialogue on this subject is neither necessary nor fruitful. Best get back to the topic of the thread. Thanks for your contributions!

[LiamG]

Not sure if these stats have been posted before but over the last 4 league games He's had the most shots in the league with 14 (joint top with Kane) He's had the most in the box 13, 4 ahead of Martial (9), But only 3 have been on target and only 2 have been big chances!

So his underlying stats are not that bad, He's just massively shot in confidence by the looks of things, Sometimes i think he can try too hard to score when sometimes he should just blast it at the goal  instead of trying to score the perfect goal in placing it

Just my opinion of course 

[McrRed]

I've said it before but your position on Bobby tells me what you know and understand about football and the way we play, a bit like your opinion on Lucas used to a while ago.

What I'm saying could come across as a bit superfan-ish but it's actually the same as when we look at lowest common denominator comments from pundits. How idiotic they sound with their truisms and respewed opinions. They've played the game, some of them under great managers, but they don't know jack.

There's a reason The Kop sing his song; there's a reason Klopp plays him every game periodization will allow. And I get why pundits and supporters of other teams don't understand his role but the fact that Liverpool fans don't just makes me sick as a parrot.

Oh, and Bobby... he's good isn't he!

[McrRed]

Not sure if these stats have been posted before but over the last 4 league games He's had the most shots in the league with 14 (joint top with Kane) He's had the most in the box 13, 4 ahead of Martial (9), But only 3 have been on target and only 2 have been big chances!

So his underlying stats are not that bad, He's just massively shot in confidence by the looks of things, Sometimes i think he can try too hard to score when sometimes he should just blast it at the goal  instead of trying to score the perfect goal in placing it

Just my opinion of course

I think this is a reaction to overfacillitating...he's been told to be more if a goal threat again himself (as this will also create more space and time for Salah and mane). But it's in a period of overall team malaise, against "teams that have worked us out" so it's not gone well at all. Interesting though. What are Mane and Salah's figures looking like? (because sadly as we know none of those shots have gone in either)

[LiamG]

I think this is a reaction to overfacillitating...he's been told to be more if a goal threat again himself (as this will also create more space and time for Salah and mane). But it's in a period of overall team malaise, against "teams that have worked us out" so it's not gone well at all. Interesting though. What are Mane and Salah's figures looking like? (because sadly as we know none of those shots have gone in either)

Mane and Salah both have 9 Total Goal attempts each over last 4 league games
Mane has had 8 in the box, Salah 7
Salah has had the most big chances (3) Mane (1)

So all of them combined have had 6 big chances and scored 0

[McrRed]

Mane and Salah both have 9 Total Goal attempts each over last 4 league games
Mane has had 8 in the box, Salah 7
Salah has had the most big chances (3) Mane (1)

So all of them combined have had 6 big chances and scored 0

Cheers mate. It frustrates me because we know it's systemic but the majority of fans really, really need an identifiable figure to hang their explanations and frustrations on.

[LiamG]

To put things into perspective our total team big chances over last 4 league games is 7, The same as West Brom who have managed to score 4

Do West Brom have a better attack than us? we all know the answer to that, i'm confident things will eventually click because the underlying stats are not bad!

[Ghost Town]

There's a reason The Kop sing his song;

To be fair, it's probably because it's a really catchy, melodious, highly singable song

But otherwise do agree about Bobby. And also, for avoidance of doubt, I am on Timbo's planet when it comes to the way I feel fans should support, and show support, and conduct themselves during discussion about the team and players.

[tubby]

I've said it before but your position on Bobby tells me what you know and understand about football and the way we play, a bit like your opinion on Lucas used to a while ago.

What I'm saying could come across as a bit superfan-ish but it's actually the same as when we look at lowest common denominator comments from pundits. How idiotic they sound with their truisms and respewed opinions. They've played the game, some of them under great managers, but they don't know jack.

There's a reason The Kop sing his song; there's a reason Klopp plays him every game periodization will allow. And I get why pundits and supporters of other teams don't understand his role but the fact that Liverpool fans don't just makes me sick as a parrot.

Oh, and Bobby... he's good isn't he!

I'm not sure this is really correct.  You could argue that back when we were just starting to gel and the Bobby, Sadio and Mo attack was beginning to tear teams apart, but that's not the case anymore.  Firmino dropping deep to give space to our other two forwards doesn't really make much difference these days when we're playing against packed penalty boxes, it was much more effective when we were able to break on teams and he'd move their defenders around to create those gaps.

These days him dropping deep just means there's one less person in the box to attack the ball while we slowly work it wide for Trent to hit his 100th cross of the match.

We need to evolve as a team and the problem we have with Firmino now is that he can't play as a traditional target man, and he's never really been that great as a traditional number 10 either.  He's been brilliant as a false 9, but now teams have cottoned on to that and are just digging in, his effectiveness has waned massively.

He'll still have some really good games against opposition that don't set up specifically to counter us, but those games are becoming much less frequent.

[vivabobbygraham]

'...But, but, but, it's a football forum, you should be allowed to have an opinion....blah, blah, fucking blah'

Yes, it is a football forum but it's a Liverpool football forum and you get your education here from the likes of Timbo cos we're different in how we support our team or rather some of us are. Arrogance? Too fucking right..

"Oh, you got your education, got your education, you got your education from the kop".


Bobby will be back!

[Wengerpresser101]

If that's the way you feel then that's the way you feel. I didn't actually call you a bully, but you feel that I have - OK fair enough.

I pointed out what I thought was bullying behaviour - namely the act of responding to an argument that one does not agree with by calling into question the loyalty of another's support for the club and team and thereby placing that person in an 'inferior' position whilst holding oneself in a 'superior' position (indicated by the presumption of what a great former manager would have thought about the posters opinions, and by the use of the royal 'We'). In this case, the superior position being a 'better supporter' over a 'worse supporter'. The characteristics which define bullying are those which identify an imbalance of authority or power (on a supporters forum obviously better supporters have more power than worse supporters), and an intent to injure which in the case of your post is only intended to insult. You say, instead this was a robust challenge but personally, I don't see how if you had tried to put yourself in the shoes/eyes of whom you had addressed it to, how you would think they would be anything but offended. Read what you said originally out loud. What if someone had addressed that to you? Can you actually imagine any supporter on this forum receiving that and not being insulted?

A bully is someone who does these things over and again - and I have not called you that because I have highlighted just one instance which I thought was an example of bullying.

I think I have represented my argument fairly well in previous posts. But just to summarise briefly, a public Liverpool FC internet Forum is an entirely appropriately place for supporters to air their views about all sorts of things pertaining to the club and football, in this particular case a player - Bobby Firmino. I think there are a variety of opinions about what is considered an 'appropriate level of whinging' about our players when they aren't perhaps at their best. Some people will consider no amount of whinging appropriate, and others will allow as much whinging as anyone wants and anywhere in between. This is the nature of opinions, particularly on the internet. However, what is entirely inappropriate is to call out someone as lesser or inferior supporter because you disagree with their opinion, and with their stance on how much whinging should be allowed. One can probably argue whether that really is bullying or not bullying etc. but that is besides the point. Who is right after all? Have we actually set rules between LFC supporters about what you are allowed to do and not do and how much whinging is permissible? And who is the arbiter of who is a better supporter or worse supporter?

What was so wrong with just saying "... look I disagree with that chap's points and it's not really my thing to bag our players but if he wants to do it well then I'm not going to get involved with that, but to be honest I'm going to stick by our players until we have more justifiable reasons to criticise them so strongly than just a spot of poor form"  and just leave it at that? I mean, at the end of the day, it's just an Internet forum. People have opinions, you're not going to agree with all of them and some of them you are going to think are downright stupid. That's life...

Anyway, not much about Firmino in this post so I'll just leave it at that. Nice hearing all of you opinions, as always.

100% agree with this post and Antartica's point, especially the part where people should be more open to a difference in perspective. Like just because Naby lad thinks Firmino should be dropped or sold doesn't make him a lesser supporter, nor should people call him such.

From observation, I think the superfans type tend to have one singular view of what it is to be a supporter, and that is to support all our players, manager, owners no matter what. That's fine. Personally my view of being a supporter is wanting the best for the club, and sometimes that includes dropping certain players, and selling certain players. And I think some of the others on here share this perspective too, like Samie and Naby lad, who both advocated for the dropping of Firmino due to his ineffectiveness. Anyway, it's fine to have difference in perspective, but like I fully agree with what Antartica is saying, that people should be more accepting of a difference in perspective, without getting personal and hurling personal insults. It's not like Naby lad slapped two pieces of bread on Firmino head and called him an idiot sandwich.

In regards to players, my view is that dropping off form players and selling in decline players, is part and parcel of being a football club. Sometimes, dropping a player can be beneficial for a club, for example when we dropped Firmino for Origi vs Burnley, and Origi performed well, nearly scoring a goal. Other times, selling a player can mean we can use the reinvestment to further our club, like with Coutinho to get Van Dijk and Allison which won us multiple trophies. Alex Ferguson used to be ruthless in dropping and selling players, quality players like Jaap Staam, Van Nistelrooy, Roy Keane etc when they were in decline, and that's how he manage to achieve sustained success. Hence I think that if we want to be a modern, successful club, we gotta be ruthless in player management, and run the club as a meritocracy, which includes dropping and selling in decline players when the time is right, especially since we have a sell to buy policy.

Like two scenarios:
Player A has performed badly for the past 2 years.
Scenario 1: We continue playing and supporting him for the next 2 years no matter what, treat him like family. His performance continue to decline, the club finish 4th and 6th because of it.
Scenario 2: We drop and sell him and use the funds to buy a better player, treat the situation like a meritocracy. The new player puts in good performance, helps the club to 2nd and 1st because of it.

The superfans mindset of blind support no matter what would lead to scenario 1, which I think ultimately in the long run isn't good for the club. And that's the line of reasoning of why me, Samie and Naby lad would choose Scenario 2, as we see it as resulting in the best outcome for the club. Anyway hopefully this explanation clears up this issue of dropping and selling. Ultimately, I agree with Antartica point, that whether we choose Scenario 1, or Scenario 2, neither of us is right or wrong, it's just a difference in perspective, and people shouldn't get all personal about it. Should be more open to a difference in perspective.

[vivabobbygraham]

100% agree with this post and Antartica's point, especially the part where people should be more open to a difference in perspective. Like just because Naby lad thinks Firmino should be dropped or sold doesn't make him a lesser supporter, nor should people call him such.

From observation, I think the superfans type tend to have one singular view of what it is to be a supporter, and that is to support all our players, manager, owners no matter what. That's fine. Personally my view of being a supporter is wanting the best for the club, and sometimes that includes dropping certain players, and selling certain players. And I think some of the others on here share this perspective too, like Samie and Naby lad, who both advocated for the dropping of Firmino due to his ineffectiveness. Anyway, it's fine to have difference in perspective, but like I fully agree with what Antartica is saying, that people should be more accepting of a difference in perspective, without getting personal and hurling personal insults. It's not like Naby lad slapped two pieces of bread on Firmino head and called him an idiot sandwich.

In regards to players, my view is that dropping off form players and selling in decline players, is part and parcel of being a football club. Sometimes, dropping a player can be beneficial for a club, for example when we dropped Firmino for Origi vs Burnley, and Origi performed well, nearly scoring a goal. Other times, selling a player can mean we can use the reinvestment to further our club, like with Coutinho to get Van Dijk and Allison which won us multiple trophies. Alex Ferguson used to be ruthless in dropping and selling players, quality players like Jaap Staam, Van Nistelrooy, Roy Keane etc when they were in decline, and that's how he manage to achieve sustained success. Hence I think that if we want to be a modern, successful club, we gotta be ruthless in player management, and run the club as a meritocracy, which includes dropping and selling in decline players when the time is right, especially since we have a sell to buy policy.

Like two scenarios:
Player A has performed badly for the past 2 years.
Scenario 1: We continue playing and supporting him for the next 2 years no matter what, treat him like family. His performance continue to decline, the club finish 4th and 6th because of it.
Scenario 2: We drop and sell him and use the funds to buy a better player, treat the situation like a meritocracy. The new player puts in good performance, helps the club to 2nd and 1st because of it.

The superfans mindset of blind support no matter what would lead to scenario 1, which I think ultimately in the long run isn't good for the club. And that's the line of reasoning of why me, Samie and Naby lad would choose Scenario 2, as we see it as resulting in the best outcome for the club. Anyway hopefully this explanation clears up this issue of dropping and selling. Ultimately, I agree with Antartica point, that whether we choose Scenario 1, or Scenario 2, neither of us is right or wrong, it's just a difference in perspective, and people shouldn't get all personal about it. Should be more open to a difference in perspective.

Another example of this virtue signalling I alluded to earlier with some. Label it, in this case a 'superfan' and then make up your own version of what that means to suit your narrative as a put down. Reading your post, the temptation would be to label you as a 'footie manager' type supporter. You seem to know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. However, I won't...

Bobby has value and will be back 👍

[number 168]

Another example of this virtue signalling I alluded to earlier with some. Label it, in this case a 'superfan' and then make up your own version of what that means to suit your narrative as a put down. Reading your post, the temptation would be to label you as a 'footie manager' type supporter. You seem to know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. However, I won't...

Bobby has value and will be back 👍

I am intrigued by the notion of a 'super fan' who has blind loyalty to the players. I have never met such a supporter in all my years going to the match. All match going supporters have their favourites and players they will slag off at the slightest mistake. Individual criticism is usually absorbed by the general support the team enjoys. Only rarely do you get a noticeabley negative response to a player. I recall the Lucas episode, which was not as nasty as some claim, much worse was Carragher being subbed early in his career when there was a clear cheer when he went off. Going back a bit Boersma got quite a bit of stick when selected. 'Dozey Bosy' was his unfortunate nickname. There have been others and always will be unfortunately. As for today's game I would like to see Thiago and Minamino play, as Thiago might just spot Taki's runs and pass to him.

[Reeves]

I agree with OfflineGegenpresser101 and MrAntarctica. I would never ever ever by negative in the ground. I shout and encourage all the players all the time, because it has an impact. On a football forum, one should be able to speak one's mind and articulate one's concerns. People may not agree but they should treat that person with respect, debate the opinion and not personalise the issue. We all want the best for LFC.

[markmywords]

Another example of this virtue signalling I alluded to earlier with some. Label it, in this case a 'superfan' and then make up your own version of what that means to suit your narrative as a put down. Reading your post, the temptation would be to label you as a 'footie manager' type supporter. You seem to know the cost of everything but the value of nothing. However, I won't...

Bobby has value and will be back 👍

I not sure a footie manager type supporter label makes sense in this case.

Surely if you think bobby is a good player and will come again, isn't this the type of decision a footie manager will make, as well as deciding when to sell?

I agree with OfflineGegenpresser101 and MrAntarctica. I would never ever ever by negative in the ground. I shout and encourage all the players all the time, because it has an impact. On a football forum, one should be able to speak one's mind and articulate one's concerns. People may not agree but they should treat that person with respect, debate the opinion and not personalise the issue. We all want the best for LFC.

I think this distinction is important, in the ground we need unqualified support for 90 mins+, this is important and has been largely upheld thanks to people like Timbo, many who would help to police and model this behaviour. Kudos to those who have gone before us and helped pave the way for some of our success. 

However I'm not sure such policing is necessary for a fans forum, especially in a day and age where;

* players can directly interact with fans on their social media profiles, thus Firmino is unlikely to be disheartened by Naby lad's posts.
* Fans aren't allowed into the ground. There may have been a feeling a negative sentiment to a player might be emboldened by match going reds seeing dozens of posts echoing their own view that someone is past it and this might lead to bad vibes coming from the "stands" towards such a player.

I see no damage in a frank, respectful conversation about a player in the current circumstances.

Onto Firmino, ironically I agree with what  Trend... has seemingly suggested, I feel bobby's downturn in numbers (g/a) is largely attributable to the approach other teams take to playing us.  Firmino  ( and salah to a certain extent) are more effective when there is space in behind.  Unfortunately this is a graver problem than a mere downturn in form and probably requires new personnel to rectify. The fact he is 29 is just an extra reason to shake things up.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

Lads, understandably we have had difficulty in the final third (minus a few games) for the better part of three months.

What I mean is that we had been willing to grind out games with massive possession and be patient for our opportunities against blocks of 8, 9, and 10.  And we did have successful play, dominant in fact even with many personnel losses and injuries with top of the table results.

It was clear back then, but nay to talk about, that we were too reliant upon Trent and Robbo service from the flanks to initiate opportunities, and this has clearly been ensconced with injuries and positional switches.  The slow side to side rhythmic midfield movements, once the defense gets set, are too easy to defend.

Our pattern play in the offensive third has been predictable, easier to defend and counter, and requires more and more energy with less and less belief on behalf of the players.  Henderson absent in the 8 role for large swathes of time can help with Gini and Thiago anchoring in the future. 

But we need to play quicker, use space and tempo better and get back to demoralizing teams with our different skills --- all it takes is one play.

But this should not be put at the doors of any individuals --- this is a collective rut brought about by the usual adjustments opponents make, our team's personality of willing to grind out wins in ways we have done before and stale decision making by the group.

Not on Bobby, not on Mo or Sadio, not on the midfield, not on injuries or CoVid or shitty fucking referees  ------> its a collective trend that needs some tactical tweaks, emotional investment in fixing, and a renewed sense of creativity from all involved!!


For some of us old timers, this is not something one can simulate, its something we have to work through (good, bad and ugly).

[DelTrotter]

Encouraging performance, should never have been subbed (assuming he wasn't injured)