Author Topic: Liverpool's Midfield  (Read 1806735 times)

Offline spider-neil

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7920 on: March 17, 2015, 05:01:15 pm »
Ok, "didn't shut him down." He bossed Fellaini and the entire Utd midfield last season at their place. MotM performance.

Allen is well capable of shutting down yard dogs like Fellaini.

I think Fellaini will only have eyes for Can at the weekend.

Offline Halcyon Lissome

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7921 on: March 17, 2015, 05:07:29 pm »
Wouldn't Pjanic be an upgrade on Henderson, rather than a replacement for Lucas/Allen, though? Honestly I don't watch enough of him to say for sure, but that's been my impression from the snippets I have seen.

Yeah, it would probably suit his natural game more to be paired with Lucas or Allen but if Henderson is played he can temper his game to be a bit more defensive and I think it would work out. Pjanic himself puts in a pretty good shift defensively, but is probably the most natural to as be the more attacking partner in the CMs. At the same time though, his passing means we probably dominate games much better with the ball and create more chances.

From conservative to expansive I think it would be a gradient like this:

Lucas-Allen > Lucas-Henderson > Allen-Henderson = Lucas-Pjanic > Allen-Pjanic > Henderson-Pjanic
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 05:09:01 pm by Halcyon Lissome »
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Offline Butter Keks

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7922 on: March 17, 2015, 05:31:16 pm »
It's not shite, it's a fact (said in a Spainish accent) - Physically Joe is not as good as some other CM's.

Joe's got his positives, all of which I've been talking about all day.  But in the past, not one game or one incident where he got kicked once.
The recent Wales vs. Belgium matches and all the Derbies where Joe's played in the middle against Fellaini, he's not been able to shut him down.

Totally different players Dembele and Fellaini, not sure why you'd compare them apart from their nationality.
And I'm not talking about Joe on the ball, so why you've brought up Xavi and Iniesta not being touched is puzzling.

It is shite. You posted above that Allen has struggled with Fellaini when in reality he hasn't. He had an on-going battle with Fellaini at Goodison which seen Fellaini resort to his normal shit house ways when he cant get his own way. As for Dembele he may not be the same as Fellaini but he was another (along with the rest of the Spurs midfield) that people had down as physical monsters we couldn't compete with, in reality we went to Spurs and smashed them 0-5 and dominated them in the middle.

If Fellaini causes up problems on Sunday it wont be because Allen isn't able to compete physically with him, it will be because we haven't stopped the supply line from getting high balls in to Fellaini.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 05:33:17 pm by Butter Keks »

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7923 on: March 17, 2015, 05:54:27 pm »
To be honest, I don't think we'll sign Pjanic (suspect the rumors were nothing more than putting 2 and 2 together), and this discussion helps explain why. He's really not a natural fit in any of the spots in our current team. Considering Henderson is currently our best midfielder, I'd rather buy someone who's more natural sitting and breaking up play in the Lucas style, but with more mobility, more willingness to carry the ball, and with more range of passing.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7924 on: March 17, 2015, 06:04:06 pm »
To be honest, I don't think we'll sign Pjanic (suspect the rumors were nothing more than putting 2 and 2 together), and this discussion helps explain why. He's really not a natural fit in any of the spots in our current team. Considering Henderson is currently our best midfielder, I'd rather buy someone who's more natural sitting and breaking up play in the Lucas style, but with more mobility, more willingness to carry the ball, and with more range of passing.

How much would a DM with these attributes cost? I'd much, much rather we put most of our money towards goalscorers, as they're the type of player who will cost, and get any DMs that we can spot a bargain for. With Lucas/Allen, our base CM spot is more than serviceable even if we don't do a thing about it, although I'd like more so as to open up options for the CM/CB area. It's goalscoring and mobile strikers where we are obviously lacking, as was clear for the first half of the season (see Timbo's campaign). For the kind of money a CM of your desired attributes will cost, we can strengthen much more productively up front.
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Offline Redman0151

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7925 on: March 17, 2015, 06:05:44 pm »
To be honest, I don't think we'll sign Pjanic (suspect the rumors were nothing more than putting 2 and 2 together), and this discussion helps explain why. He's really not a natural fit in any of the spots in our current team. Considering Henderson is currently our best midfielder, I'd rather buy someone who's more natural sitting and breaking up play in the Lucas style, but with more mobility, more willingness to carry the ball, and with more range of passing.

Question is whether Rodgers sees this as a long term tactic or if it's just a means to an end to fit what he has right now.

Could go out in the summer and hope to buy a CM, RB and striker and revert to 4-2-3-1
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Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7926 on: March 17, 2015, 06:49:49 pm »
How much would a DM with these attributes cost? I'd much, much rather we put most of our money towards goalscorers, as they're the type of player who will cost, and get any DMs that we can spot a bargain for. With Lucas/Allen, our base CM spot is more than serviceable even if we don't do a thing about it, although I'd like more so as to open up options for the CM/CB area. It's goalscoring and mobile strikers where we are obviously lacking, as was clear for the first half of the season (see Timbo's campaign). For the kind of money a CM of your desired attributes will cost, we can strengthen much more productively up front.
Illara probably €20 million. Ki probably similar, maybe less. There are plenty of younger guys who could develop into superstars who already are in that mold at least who would cost about the same or less. We've got room in the budget for forwards and a midfielder, and I'm sure you'll see us buy one, whether Lucas leaves or not.

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7927 on: March 17, 2015, 06:54:34 pm »
To be honest, I don't think we'll sign Pjanic (suspect the rumors were nothing more than putting 2 and 2 together), and this discussion helps explain why. He's really not a natural fit in any of the spots in our current team. Considering Henderson is currently our best midfielder, I'd rather buy someone who's more natural sitting and breaking up play in the Lucas style, but with more mobility, more willingness to carry the ball, and with more range of passing.
But if we were to sign a truly top level talent in a playmaking mould, it could take the team to the next level on the ball and in terms of breaking teams apart. Not necessarily Pjanic - it might be someone who is a bit more defensively responsible or athletically gifted and slightly less technically outstanding - but a 'pass master' of some form.

Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7928 on: March 17, 2015, 06:56:59 pm »
But if we were to sign a truly top level talent in a playmaking mould, it could take the team to the next level on the ball and in terms of breaking teams apart. Not necessarily Pjanic - it might be someone who is a bit more defensively responsible or athletically gifted and slightly less technically outstanding - but a 'pass master' of some form.

Nainggolan?  ;)

Illara probably €20 million. Ki probably similar, maybe less. There are plenty of younger guys who could develop into superstars who already are in that mold at least who would cost about the same or less. We've got room in the budget for forwards and a midfielder, and I'm sure you'll see us buy one, whether Lucas leaves or not.

Ki would cost nowhere near €20m. I know you like him - I do as well - but we're talking about a guy who shines in a midtable team, and was loaned out to Sunderland last season.

I don't see what Illaramendi brings that Allen doesn't when firing on all cylinders.
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Offline The G in Gerrard

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7929 on: March 17, 2015, 07:00:09 pm »
We should get Cabaye as an addition to our midfield. Quality player. Is one midfielder enough this summer (assuming Gerrard only leaves).

Offline ThePeetmix

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7930 on: March 17, 2015, 07:02:04 pm »
We should get Cabaye as an addition to our midfield. Quality player. Is one midfielder enough this summer (assuming Gerrard only leaves).

I think so. One midfielder who can do what Hendo does would be ideal. Lucas and Allen are pretty much spot on for our defensive midfielders.

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7931 on: March 17, 2015, 07:04:28 pm »
Nainggolan?  ;)

Ki would cost nowhere near €20m. I know you like him - I do as well - but we're talking about a guy who shines in a midtable team, and was loaned out to Sunderland last season.

I don't see what Illaramendi brings that Allen doesn't when firing on all cylinders.
You wouldn't think, but I suspect PL inflation is going to be even crazier than usual this summer, especially when a big club is trying to buy. Anyway, the cheaper he is, the more it strengthens my point that you don't have to blow your budget to get a player to play in that spot with at least most those attributes.  As for the latter, he might not, but I sure don't want us to sell Allen either! Both he and Lucas are too fragile to rely on completely, however.

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7932 on: March 17, 2015, 07:07:16 pm »
I think so. One midfielder who can do what Hendo does would be ideal. Lucas and Allen are pretty much spot on for our defensive midfielders.
Henderson is always fit, rarely tires and will be our captain next year. I sure wouldn't want to spend a substantial portion of the budget on someone who can't play next to him. But I take your general point.

Offline Butter Keks

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7933 on: March 17, 2015, 07:07:17 pm »
Nainggolan?  ;)

Ki would cost nowhere near €20m. I know you like him - I do as well - but we're talking about a guy who shines in a midtable team, and was loaned out to Sunderland last season.

I don't see what Illaramendi brings that Allen doesn't when firing on all cylinders.

He's neat and tidy Ki but he always strikes me as the type to struggle to impose himself on the game if things aren't going Swansea's way. At 26 I'm not sure he's what we need if we want to change things up next season.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7934 on: March 17, 2015, 07:16:56 pm »
Illara probably €20 million. Ki probably similar, maybe less. There are plenty of younger guys who could develop into superstars who already are in that mold at least who would cost about the same or less. We've got room in the budget for forwards and a midfielder, and I'm sure you'll see us buy one, whether Lucas leaves or not.

I wouldn't bother paying more than 10m or so for someone in that area. In our attack, we have 1 player, Sturridge, who is fitting of the description, and 3 who are not (not counting those out on loan). At the very least, we need someone at Sturridge's level but without the penchant for injuries. That's 30m minimum, even before we look at bulking the squad. How much money do you expect us to spend? How much money do you expect us to have left after getting one of these strikers, or are you suggesting we can do without?
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Offline ThePeetmix

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7935 on: March 17, 2015, 07:18:20 pm »
Henderson is always fit, rarely tires and will be our captain next year. I sure wouldn't want to spend a substantial portion of the budget on someone who can't play next to him. But I take your general point.

I agree. Hence why I think someone like Cabaye wouldn't be the best guy to bring in. Maybe in midfield we don't necessarily need a big money signing. Especially if we have Can too. I think a more dynamic midfield role suits him more than a purely defensive one. He has lovely dribbling skills and calmness on the ball and it'd be a shame to not use that. I think the main portion of our budget should go on buying a good ball playing CB and maybe if we decide we want another CM, we go for one in the more cheaper 20-23 market that we've had a lot of success in under Rodgers.

Offline swordfishtrombone

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7936 on: March 17, 2015, 07:21:36 pm »
Wouldn't you expect us to have a minimum of Ł30m + sales this summer, possibly Ł50m+ if we qualify for the CL again? We've already got Origi coming in, so hopefully we're in a position to spend that whole budget on two or three players

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7937 on: March 17, 2015, 07:33:28 pm »
You're quite fond of this line of argument, but I think you'll find almost everyone in here appreciates what Lucas and Allen do. I personally like to gloat about our form without Lucas because there's a Cult of Lucas that likes to attribute all our improvement to him, but he's certainly played well this year when he's gotten in the game and restored balance to us. I'd also, however, be perfectly happy to be rid of Lucas in the summer, as he's slowing down physically and gets injured a lot, though only if we get another midfielder who can do the Allen/Lucas things well, perhaps with a bit more progressive ability and mobility than Lucas.

I've seen the Cult of Lucas thing get bandied around here a lot and I don't think it's a fair assessment of things really, certainly there's no more a Cult of Lucas than there is of Sakho, where people ridicule every claim of 'oh he looks awkward' or a Cult of Gerrard where people take offense if there's any hint of criticism and his team mates get called shithouses. And these types of things are oftentimes mentioned alongside things such as 'I like Lucas but...'. In the same vein, there's always the opposite whereby four year agendas against Henderson are still being pursued or opinions that Skrtel is an awful footballer, as was the case earlier on in the season. If you look hard enough, there's these types of things for almost all players.

For me, Lucas wasn't the sole reason we had an upturn in form but he was a factor in it but one of the best things about the past few months is that we're able to replace our injured players without losing anything in terms of performance and results. Allen, in particular over the past few games has been excellent and deserves to keep his place IMO. Like Rodgers mentioned, when Gerrard was coming back, no one's guaranteed to walk back straight into the side and that's how it should be. How great is it that we have Gerrard and Lucas available again but that they won't necessarily come back into the side. That's a huge complement to the rest of team and to Rodgers himself.
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Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7938 on: March 17, 2015, 07:38:08 pm »
I wouldn't bother paying more than 10m or so for someone in that area. In our attack, we have 1 player, Sturridge, who is fitting of the description, and 3 who are not (not counting those out on loan). At the very least, we need someone at Sturridge's level but without the penchant for injuries. That's 30m minimum, even before we look at bulking the squad. How much money do you expect us to spend? How much money do you expect us to have left after getting one of these strikers, or are you suggesting we can do without?
Well, I'll bet you anything we won't spend more than Ł30m on a striker unless there's an absolute perfect storm of circumstances, like there almost was with Sanchez. It's just not how we operate, and it's smart strategy. Most transfers fail for almost all teams, so it's much better over the long haul to spend Ł50m on 4 players than on 1. Notice how over the last several years, once we get past the super cheap "punts," there's almost no correlation between the quality of player we bring in and what it cost to sign them.

We don't need it anyway. We'll get Origi, who, despite his struggles, will bring the physicality and mobility we lacked when Sturridge was out. You could say similar about Ings, who may not be a world beater, but will bring the movement everyone but Borini lacked with a little bit of technique to go with it (and for almost nothing). After that, we don't need a Benzema or an Icardi or whoever. We don't buy guys for that price who would demand the wages they do unless we can see a perfect fit, and neither are better than a fit Sturridge. Would I be upset if we got one? Of course not, and I wouldn't complain if that meant we stood completely pat in central midfield. But I just don't see it. For me, it's much more likely, if we buy another attacker beyond Ings and Origi, that it will be someone who plays behind the striker and scores goals, but perhaps also could play as the 9 in a pinch. The reasonably solid links to Depay are the perfect example of that. We've looked great with Sterling as a striker, so I'm not sure we will (or should be) so frightened of having him as a backup to Sturridge that we need a top tier number 9 to back up our other top tier number 9.

And, for the record, I'm not suggesting Lucas should or will be pushed out. My wild speculation is that Rodgers will take him aside in the summer and explain that  there will be lots of competition for places in midfield, and he can't guarantee Lucas anything like a starter's minutes. He'll explain he definitely still wants him at the club, but if Lucas wants to leave, he'll be willing to let that happen. Much like what happened with Shelvey.

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7939 on: March 17, 2015, 07:41:41 pm »
I've seen the Cult of Lucas thing get bandied around here a lot and I don't think it's a fair assessment of things really, certainly there's no more a Cult of Lucas than there is of Sakho, where people ridicule every claim of 'oh he looks awkward' or a Cult of Gerrard where people take offense if there's any hint of criticism and his team mates get called shithouses. And these types of things are oftentimes mentioned alongside things such as 'I like Lucas but...'. In the same vein, there's always the opposite whereby four year agendas against Henderson are still being pursued or opinions that Skrtel is an awful footballer, as was the case earlier on in the season. If you look hard enough, there's these types of things for almost all players.

For me, Lucas wasn't the sole reason we had an upturn in form but he was a factor in it but one of the best things about the past few months is that we're able to replace our injured players without losing anything in terms of performance and results. Allen, in particular over the past few games has been excellent and deserves to keep his place IMO. Like Rodgers mentioned, when Gerrard was coming back, no one's guaranteed to walk back straight into the side and that's how it should be. How great is it that we have Gerrard and Lucas available again but that they won't necessarily come back into the side. That's a huge complement to the rest of team and to Rodgers himself.
Oh, there's definitely a Cult of Sakho too. It's also fair enough to say the Lucas thing is mostly two posters, one of whom is now banned, but their brand is/was particularly amusing.

Agree with the rest.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7940 on: March 17, 2015, 07:44:46 pm »
I've seen the Cult of Lucas thing get bandied around here a lot and I don't think it's a fair assessment of things really, certainly there's no more a Cult of Lucas than there is of Sakho, where people ridicule every claim of 'oh he looks awkward' or a Cult of Gerrard where people take offense if there's any hint of criticism and his team mates get called shithouses. And these types of things are oftentimes mentioned alongside things such as 'I like Lucas but...'. In the same vein, there's always the opposite whereby four year agendas against Henderson are still being pursued or opinions that Skrtel is an awful footballer, as was the case earlier on in the season. If you look hard enough, there's these types of things for almost all players.

For me, Lucas wasn't the sole reason we had an upturn in form but he was a factor in it but one of the best things about the past few months is that we're able to replace our injured players without losing anything in terms of performance and results. Allen, in particular over the past few games has been excellent and deserves to keep his place IMO. Like Rodgers mentioned, when Gerrard was coming back, no one's guaranteed to walk back straight into the side and that's how it should be. How great is it that we have Gerrard and Lucas available again but that they won't necessarily come back into the side. That's a huge complement to the rest of team and to Rodgers himself.

And the thing about Lucas/Allen is that, certain tactical aspects aside, they're pretty much interchangeable at base CM, and we've been getting good results with either. I'd give greater credit to Lucas than some are willing to, for the same reason that I'd give credit to Toure as well - they performed consistently well when the rest of the team wasn't, and they set the foundations we're now enjoying. But right now, I'd be happy with either of them at base CM.

Compare with the situation at striker. What alternatives do we have to Sturridge who makes Lucas and Allen look indestructible? I'd have thought striker was the one position absolutely screaming for high level reinforcement. But instead, people are looking anywhere but, bandying ideas for big money signings elsewhere that would take up the bulk of our available funds.
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7941 on: March 17, 2015, 07:47:06 pm »
For me, Lucas wasn't the sole reason we had an upturn in form but he was a factor in it but one of the best things about the past few months is that we're able to replace our injured players without losing anything in terms of performance and results. Allen, in particular over the past few games has been excellent and deserves to keep his place IMO. Like Rodgers mentioned, when Gerrard was coming back, no one's guaranteed to walk back straight into the side and that's how it should be. How great is it that we have Gerrard and Lucas available again but that they won't necessarily come back into the side. That's a huge complement to the rest of team and to Rodgers himself.

Definitely agree like that and it covers all areas. If you consider our victories against City, Southampton, Swansea, Spurs and since January then nearly everyone has contributed. Against Spurs for example we had no Sterling, Lucas, Allen, Lallana in the starting 11 but then Ibe, Markovic, Sturridge and even Balotelli performed. Lovren got in a good game, Gerrard contributed as well.

Offline theMilkman

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7942 on: March 17, 2015, 07:49:54 pm »
He's neat and tidy Ki but he always strikes me as the type to struggle to impose himself on the game if things aren't going Swansea's way. At 26 I'm not sure he's what we need if we want to change things up next season.

wouldn't be surprised if we go for ki. Aside from the fact i think he could be at least a good back up, we'd probably cover most of the 15-20 mil with sold jerseys, ad deals and commercial revenue in east asia over a few seasons with a summer trip there. United exploded there after buying park. Even if he barely plays, i can imagine FSG thinking it's a good investment strategy -perhaps a subtle nudge to the TC from ayre here and there. IFF the brodge wants him of course.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2015, 07:56:04 pm by theMilkman »
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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7943 on: March 17, 2015, 08:02:37 pm »
Oh, there's definitely a Cult of Sakho too. It's also fair enough to say the Lucas thing is mostly two posters, one of whom is now banned, but their brand is/was particularly amusing.

Agree with the rest.

I did neglect to mention that I'm a fully fledged member of those two particular cults :P

I don't think there's necessarily wrong with having favourite players, heck I have loads as well, it's just that there's sometimes a trend whereby posters start criticising other players unnecessarily when their favourites are brought up or worse they just do that for no reason.

Anyway, I think Lucas is terrific and unlike you, wouldn't want him sold this summer for a variety of reasons but at the same time Allen and Henderson have been excellent in our games recently - and really tough games at that, especially when there was a feeling amongst some that our good run earlier on this calendar year was because we didn't play any difficult sides - and Allen yesterday especially in the second half was superb. Long may it continue.
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Offline Djimi Smicer34

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7944 on: March 17, 2015, 08:07:54 pm »
The key issue isn't Lucas or Allen. The key issue is Lucas/Allen as a type. Those who gloat over the probable omission of Lucas were even more scathing about Allen before Lucas came in earlier in the season. They don't appreciate the usefulness of attending to the midfield basics consistently and before any other qualities come to be considered for the midfield. They'd be glad to be rid of Lucas, and when the time comes they'll be glad to be rid of Allen too, in order to get in a more "dynamic" CM. And by dynamic I mean someone who doesn't do so much of the basic work, as the basic work is often denigrated (until a period when the lack of such results in the midfield not working), and every quality but the midfield essentials is highlighted as a plus (and the essentials are assumed to be part of any package, when this is pointed out).

Those people can believe what they want, its not a line of thinking that I subscribe to.

When Lucas was turning in excellent performances week after week I gave him the credit he deserved, he played a significant part in turning our season around.  Saying that he's not going to get back into the team when he's fit isn't gloating on my part so I hope it didn't come across like that, I'm just giving Allen the credit he deserves for his excellent performances since he's come back into the team and I believe he should keep his place when Lucas is fit to play.

My personal opinion, not based on anything other than a gut feeling, is that Lucas will leave in the summer.  Not because he's not good enough or because I have some sort of agenda against him, I just think he's going to go.  If he does then I'll be sorry to see him go, if he doesn't then I'll be very happy to still have him as part of our squad.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if Lucas and Gerrard go and are replaced by James Milner and another new signing.

But Lucas and Allen have clear roles to play in our squad and team, they've shown that when they're on fom they can be vital players for us.

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7945 on: March 17, 2015, 08:21:46 pm »
I did neglect to mention that I'm a fully fledged member of those two particular cults :P

I don't think there's necessarily wrong with having favourite players, heck I have loads as well, it's just that there's sometimes a trend whereby posters start criticising other players unnecessarily when their favourites are brought up or worse they just do that for no reason.

Anyway, I think Lucas is terrific and unlike you, wouldn't want him sold this summer for a variety of reasons but at the same time Allen and Henderson have been excellent in our games recently - and really tough games at that, especially when there was a feeling amongst some that our good run earlier on this calendar year was because we didn't play any difficult sides - and Allen yesterday especially in the second half was superb. Long may it continue.
As I said, I don't actually want Lucas to leave, I just kind of suspect it will happen and wouldn't be bothered by it. Djimi's post sums up my feelings well:
My personal opinion, not based on anything other than a gut feeling, is that Lucas will leave in the summer.  Not because he's not good enough or because I have some sort of agenda against him, I just think he's going to go.  If he does then I'll be sorry to see him go, if he doesn't then I'll be very happy to still have him as part of our squad.  It wouldn't surprise me at all if Lucas and Gerrard go and are replaced by James Milner and another new signing.

Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7946 on: March 17, 2015, 08:34:28 pm »
Compare with the situation at striker. What alternatives do we have to Sturridge who makes Lucas and Allen look indestructible?
Origi and very likely Ings, for a start.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7947 on: March 17, 2015, 09:22:11 pm »
Interesting comment from Neil Taylor on Joe Allen. He must have an account on here :D

Quote
"Unless you are a real football person and know the game and see the game like we do, because we're in it, then you may not see the nuts and bolts that Joe does so well," left-back Taylor added.
Better looking than Samie.

Offline Clint Eastwood

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7948 on: March 17, 2015, 09:34:19 pm »
Allen is playing very well at the moment. I'm not getting carried away though, there have been times every season since he's been here in which he's looked good, and I've said that, just for him to go missing after a handful of games. He really needs to keep this run up and find some consistency.

On the topic of consistency, Lallana also needs to find some. I don't think he's suited at RWB, but nor is Sterling, who incidentally is struggling for form, so I'd let them both battle out for a position in the front three.

RWB is actually a bit of a blackhole. Only Ibe has shone in that position, Markovic has in one or two games but has been ineffective in most others... I'd like to see Can play there to be honest. I know it's a bit risky meddling with a winning team, and we don't really have the opportunity to experiment, but it would be interesting to stick Lovren at RCB and try Can at RWB.

Not sure what everyone else thinks of this; I mean, Can is hardly a Sterling/Markovic/Moreno type player, but he has experience of playing in a full-back position, he's very good on the ball and has shown he's not scared of bombing forward every now and again. I just think it's something new to try. I feel as though Markovic and Sterling don't really know what to do when they find themselves so far wide and tend to force a cross (which we are poor at).

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7949 on: March 17, 2015, 09:52:54 pm »
Interesting comment from Neil Taylor on Joe Allen. He must have an account on here :D

To be honest I was going to say that last night in the half time thread but didn't want to come across as some wana-be-pro. But I really don't think you can appreciate that type of player unless you regularly play football, or have regularly played football at some point in your life. He was immense in that first half last night. Uses his small frame so well to retain possession when being harried by an opponent. Only thing I remember him doing wrong last night was a misplaced left footed pass after a corner had broken down.

Surprised Sky awarded Henderson MOTM and not Allen.

Offline Broad Spectrum

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7950 on: March 17, 2015, 10:06:03 pm »

And, for the record, I'm not suggesting Lucas should or will be pushed out. My wild speculation is that Rodgers will take him aside in the summer and explain that  there will be lots of competition for places in midfield, and he can't guarantee Lucas anything like a starter's minutes. He'll explain he definitely still wants him at the club, but if Lucas wants to leave, he'll be willing to let that happen. Much like what happened with Shelvey.

Yeah I think you're right there. Frustrating thing now though is Lucas was starting to hit pre-cruciate injury form before his recent thigh injury, and unless there's fitness issues with Henderson, Allen, Gerrard etc. I'd be surprised if he starts more than a game or two between now and the end of the season.

On a completely random note, has anyone noticed the difference in Henderson over the last 12 months during interviews? He's really beginning to sound like Brendan, always using his terminology, which is by no means a bad thing. It just reminds me of how far he's come since he's been here, and more importantly, how vital Rodgers has been, and will continue to be, in his development.

Offline swordfishtrombone

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7951 on: March 17, 2015, 10:15:39 pm »
On the topic of consistency, Lallana also needs to find some. I don't think he's suited at RWB, but nor is Sterling, who incidentally is struggling for form, so I'd let them both battle out for a position in the front three.

RWB is actually a bit of a blackhole. Only Ibe has shone in that position, Markovic has in one or two games but has been ineffective in most others... I'd like to see Can play there to be honest. I know it's a bit risky meddling with a winning team, and we don't really have the opportunity to experiment, but it would be interesting to stick Lovren at RCB and try Can at RWB.

Not sure what everyone else thinks of this; I mean, Can is hardly a Sterling/Markovic/Moreno type player, but he has experience of playing in a full-back position, he's very good on the ball and has shown he's not scared of bombing forward every now and again. I just think it's something new to try. I feel as though Markovic and Sterling don't really know what to do when they find themselves so far wide and tend to force a cross (which we are poor at).

Just said the same thing in another thread. Like you say, nobody has really nailed down that role so far. We've got umpteen players who can do some sort of a job there - Markovic, Sterling, Lallana, Johnson, Manqillo and probably a couple more at a push - but nobody who's claimed the spot the way Moreno has done on the other side. Can might well be worth a look there. He's had a few more wobbles defensively the last couple of games as well. I guess the manager can choose to stick with him in the same position - he'll have bad games throughout his career and maybe he just needs to play through it - or push him somewhere else where he's maybe not under the same kind of scrutiny but still has plenty to offer for a couple of games.

Offline Shaved Crossbar

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7952 on: March 17, 2015, 10:43:30 pm »
Stav is banned?

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7953 on: March 17, 2015, 10:50:33 pm »
I think some of you are really stretching yourselves to make sure you emphasise that Lucas isn't all that. Bloody hell - he came into the side as a permanent fixture (the predominant change during that period) and we went from very shit to quite solid. Whether or not that means he would make us better today is a different question - but I tell you what - I'm fucking stoked to have a player of his quality to call upon for the situations that could benefit from his presence.

He played very well during that period - most importantly going forward (or returning the ball at least) because of his quickness of pass and finding the right angles almost universally.

Anyway, I've never understood those that criticise our own players because there may be 1 or 2 better players in the world. Sure yearn, but fuck me, you don't have to be negative about our own player in the meantime.

Offline Sangria

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7954 on: March 17, 2015, 11:13:17 pm »
I think some of you are really stretching yourselves to make sure you emphasise that Lucas isn't all that. Bloody hell - he came into the side as a permanent fixture (the predominant change during that period) and we went from very shit to quite solid. Whether or not that means he would make us better today is a different question - but I tell you what - I'm fucking stoked to have a player of his quality to call upon for the situations that could benefit from his presence.

He played very well during that period - most importantly going forward (or returning the ball at least) because of his quickness of pass and finding the right angles almost universally.

Anyway, I've never understood those that criticise our own players because there may be 1 or 2 better players in the world. Sure yearn, but fuck me, you don't have to be negative about our own player in the meantime.

Toure as well. Those two had the mentality to put up a fight no matter what the perceived situation was. If we were to be beaten, at the very least the opposition would have to work bloody hard to earn their win.
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Offline Giono

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7955 on: March 18, 2015, 06:25:17 am »
I think some of the problem for us today in the first half, and probably until Gerrard came on, was that neither Henderson nor Allen took on the role of stopper, allowing the other one to go forward. They took it in turns, but neither of them actually got forward with any real purpose. This is the value of Lucas, though. He does take it upon himself to be the stopper, with few runs forward, and that allows the other midfielder to become more box-to-box or even outright attacking as a midfielder, knowing that Lucas has the door bolt behind him. I think a Lucas/Allen pair could work, as long as Allen took realised he was the runner, and left Lucas to mind the shop. When Gerrard came on, he did the stopper job, which meant both Allen and Henderson could get forward, which increased our pressure and attacks immensely from that point on.

Interesting point. It sounds reasonable that with two players asked to be cautious and bold that they may both be overly cautious overall rather than both be overly bold.

Allen has been a revelation recently. But I find that Henderson does not look as good next to him as he does next to Lucas for some reason. Maybe that is connected to your idea about the shared roles above? To be honest I hate seeing Henderson as the deepest defender. He doesn't interplay with defenders near as well as Allen and Lucas do.
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7956 on: March 18, 2015, 08:50:39 am »
Interesting point. It sounds reasonable that with two players asked to be cautious and bold that they may both be overly cautious overall rather than both be overly bold.

Allen has been a revelation recently. But I find that Henderson does not look as good next to him as he does next to Lucas for some reason. Maybe that is connected to your idea about the shared roles above? To be honest I hate seeing Henderson as the deepest defender. He doesn't interplay with defenders near as well as Allen and Lucas do.

And while he's good from outside the box, not so sure he's going to score too many from his own half ;)

Offline Roger Federer

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7957 on: March 18, 2015, 10:13:14 am »
Origi and very likely Ings, for a start.
I'd be very disappoined if those were our options next year, unless Ings is much better than everyone on here says he is (even those who rate him). We wont get a Sturridge level player, I realise that, but I'd guess there are quite a few strikers whose quality is somewhere between Ings and Sturridge that are available to us. Certainly if we get into the Champions League again. I think we need another midfielder as well, but our options in central midfield are better than those up front right now.

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7958 on: March 18, 2015, 10:39:51 am »
I'd be very disappoined if those were our options next year, unless Ings is much better than everyone on here says he is (even those who rate him). We wont get a Sturridge level player, I realise that, but I'd guess there are quite a few strikers whose quality is somewhere between Ings and Sturridge that are available to us. Certainly if we get into the Champions League again. I think we need another midfielder as well, but our options in central midfield are better than those up front right now.

How good would Ings really need to be?

About as good as someone like Remy? Or Welbeck? Those sort of players who occupy a similar squad position at their respective clubs?

I dont think he's too far from that sort of class at all to be honest.

Offline Nessy76

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Re: Liverpool's Midfield
« Reply #7959 on: March 18, 2015, 10:41:37 am »
wouldn't be surprised if we go for ki. Aside from the fact i think he could be at least a good back up, we'd probably cover most of the 15-20 mil with sold jerseys, ad deals and commercial revenue in east asia over a few seasons with a summer trip there. United exploded there after buying park. Even if he barely plays, i can imagine FSG thinking it's a good investment strategy -perhaps a subtle nudge to the TC from ayre here and there. IFF the brodge wants him of course.

Ah, the old kit sales chestnut. How many shirts do you really imagine the club would sell off the back of this? Even if you ignore the fact that the kit deal is front loaded so we get a flat rate from NB covering most of our income from kit sales, you're talking about maybe ten pounds profit per unit.
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