Topic: The Murder of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter.

[Escorcio]

I understand what you're saying, which is why I don't post in here very often, because for me, those reactions ARE evidence. You just cannot fake that.  In a judicial system of reasonable doubt, as Glenn Kirschner alluded to several days ago, the amount of pressure required to cause dangerous to lethally low dosages of oxygen to the brain isn't much.

Thank fuck you’re not on the jury

[oldfordie]

It's up to the jury to decide what evidence they find important. facial expressions etc are very important when deciding if a witness is giving credible evidence, I wouldn't be relying on the pathological evidence when deciding guilt.  imo. any person would have died if they can't breath because someone kneels on their neck for over 9 min.
Chauvins chat with a bystander doesn't seem to be getting much attention yet, am sure it will by the end of the trial.

The Minneapolis officer who put his knee on George Floyd's neck defended himself to a bystander afterward by saying Floyd was “a sizable guy” and “probably on something."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/firefighter-blocked-helping-floyd-returns-stand-76782423

So what's Floyds size got to do with it. well Chauvin is admitting this was on his mind for those 9 mins. Chauvin was s.. scared of Floyd as he was a big man, he treated him like a dangerous wild animal he had managed to capture and hold down till help came. he dare not give him the slightest chance to wriggle free to attack him. Chauvin was a s,, house who was never fit to be a cop, other cops would have handled the situation more considerately, they would put their own safety first but they wouldn't let their fear over come them.
 I still find that video terrible, it always reminds me of a Lion holding it's prey by the neck

[Red Beret]

Thank fuck you’re not on the jury

Thank fuck your opinion matters about as much as mine.

[Shankly998]

Do we think worse than Rodney King riots should Chauvin be acquitted?

[Ray K]

10 serving police officers, 9 of them with the Minneapolis PD, have testified against Chauvin so far. I think they've decided as a policy that he's expendable and they're not going to let him drag everyone else down.

Jury is not expected to start to deliberate until the week after next.

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

Do we think worse than Rodney King riots should Chauvin be acquitted?

Aye. Rodney King survived his torture. Floyd did not have a chance of hell in surviving.

[stoa]

To be honest, after hearing that expert witness today, I can't see how Chauvin could get away with this. He adressed basically everything that could have been cause for doubt. He said, that his health issues had no impact and that a healthy person would have died as well. He also showed that the drugs in George Floyd's system made no difference. The most shocking part was the one where he basically pointed out in a video "That is the moment he died". That was just truly horrible and it gave me goosebumps. I would imagine it was the same for those jurors.

[Billy The Kid]

I see Ben Shapiro is up to his usual antics of trying to appear smarter than he actually is

The fucking smarmy, water muddying, pseudo intellectual, blowhard, bullshit spewing little fraud

[mallin9]

I have extremely low confidence that justice will be served in this case, because to my mind it is clear Chauvin committed murder.  Yet I think you see with dimwits like Shapiro, and the defense lawyer wondering why people filmed the murder if it was so life and death, the cracks into which justice will disappear.

[stoa]

I see Ben Shapiro is up to his usual antics of trying to appear smarter than he actually is

The fucking smarmy, water muddying, pseudo intellectual, blowhard, bullshit spewing little fraud

Whatever drug he's taking, he should use less of it, because he clearly missed about 99 percent of what was said in the trial, if that's what he has picked up as the important stuff...

[FlashGordon]

Whatever drug he's taking, he should use less of it, because he clearly missed about 99 percent of what was said in the trial, if that's what he has picked up as the important stuff...

That's the tactic him and all his ilk use though. Pick a very specific and minute detail of a problem and use that to further their own already formed opinion. Flying in the face of all the other evidence that strongly disproves their points. It works for them, I'll give them that the shape shifting lizards.

[Hazell]

To be honest, after hearing that expert witness today, I can't see how Chauvin could get away with this. He adressed basically everything that could have been cause for doubt. He said, that his health issues had no impact and that a healthy person would have died as well. He also showed that the drugs in George Floyd's system made no difference. The most shocking part was the one where he basically pointed out in a video "That is the moment he died". That was just truly horrible and it gave me goosebumps. I would imagine it was the same for those jurors.

I saw that, really thorough and unequivocal that any healthy person (which the defence is saying George Floyd wasn't, for various reasons) would have suffered the same consequences. Heard on the news that the prosecution also have a cardiologist and toxicologist they're going to call. No doubt the defence will have their own experts so it might come down to who's most persuasive. This guy's been pretty strong so far.

He's going to be cross examined shortly so I'm wondering what they're going to ask to try and cast doubt on his testimony.

[rafathegaffa83]

That's the tactic him and all his ilk use though. Pick a very specific and minute detail of a problem and use that to further their own already formed opinion. Flying in the face of all the other evidence that strongly disproves their points. It works for them, I'll give them that the shape shifting lizards.

Spot on. It's what everyone of them do.

To be honest, after hearing that expert witness today, I can't see how Chauvin could get away with this. He adressed basically everything that could have been cause for doubt. He said, that his health issues had no impact and that a healthy person would have died as well. He also showed that the drugs in George Floyd's system made no difference. The most shocking part was the one where he basically pointed out in a video "That is the moment he died". That was just truly horrible and it gave me goosebumps. I would imagine it was the same for those jurors.

Definitely.

[Machae]

I see Ben Shapiro is up to his usual antics of trying to appear smarter than he actually is

The fucking smarmy, water muddying, pseudo intellectual, blowhard, bullshit spewing little fraud

Hes a twat, but just goes to show how deeply racist they are. I mean if the Officer was black and he killed a white guy under the same circumstances, hed be all over it, demanding justice.

[HomesickRed]

Horrible watching the trial lowlights on the news.
Disgusting that what was going on was clear for all those watching on.
Unfortunately, unless they can find a motive for this to be pre-meditated, it may end up as manslaughter.
Not ideal, but so long as blame is attached to the officer, justice can be seen to  be done. But only just.

[stoa]

Horrible watching the trial lowlights on the news.
Disgusting that what was going on was clear for all those watching on.
Unfortunately, unless they can find a motive for this to be pre-meditated, it may end up as manslaughter.
Not ideal, but so long as blame is attached to the officer, justice can be seen to  be done. But only just.

Premeditation doesn't play a part in this as far as I understand. It's explained here:
https://www.startribune.com/derek-chauvin-charges-trial-george-floyd-murder-manslaughter-police-minneapolis-minnesota/600030691/

I'm not sure the prosecution can get the second degree murder charge, but the third degree murder charge seems basically made for this case. None of the cops looked like they cared about what happened to George Floyd and even when he stops moving and shows no signs of being conscious or even alive, they keep on doing what they're doing. Chauvin even keeps his knee on Floyd's neck when the ambulance arrives and the paramedic has to tell him to get out of the way.

[12C]

https://twitter.com/alexhortontx/status/1380640537867399181?s=21

Shocking story that sadly shows the cops are none the wiser.

What saddens me is the fact that black people now have to have a “tactic” to prevent them being shot by twitchy racist cops.
Indicate you are pulling in but slow and continue within the speed limit to a petrol station or similarly lit/cctv covered area, to try and reduce the chances of being shot and the police lying to cover up your murder.

These cops stopped this serving officer in his uniform with no cause other than they felt a black man shouldn’t have a new car.

Seems some cops are still living in the 1940s

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Woodard

[stoa]

This issue will not be solved over night I'm afraid, because there's just too much wrong with the whole justice/police system (or even the system in general like with the lax gun laws or even the distribution of wealth) in the US. Just like this incident is not just about racism. It is clear why they've pulled him over and that is bad enough, but just think about it. This is a fucking traffic stop, because the car has no proper rear plate and only a minute into the bodycam video you have cops with their guns out. That's fucking insane. And them being so trigger happy makes the whole situation even worse, because the man in the car is clearly afraid of what is going to happen to him, when he gets out of the car. That leads to the cops becoming even more riled up and the whole thing escalates even more. And the whole pepper spray thing shows what an idiot that cop is, because he sprays multiple times and then there's such a "cloud" in the air that he starts coughing himself. That's just utter stupidity.

I think I've said it in this thread (or in the gun violence thread), I'm not sure that things will ever really change in the US in the short or medium term. Just so many things are messed up there. The various police forces seem to have massive issues with racism and cops who are not fit for the job. For a lot of them there still seems to be this wild west mentality of getting a criminal at any cost (whether they're a murderer or someone who was driving and just forgot his license at home), "Dead or Alive". The one case (I'm sorry, but I don't remember the name of the victim, because there are so many of them) shows that perfectly. I think it was about a DUI or whatever and the guy runs away and the cops shoot him in the back instead of letting him get away and get him at a later point. Or the case of Philando Castile where the cop shoots into the car seven or how ever many times it was, because Castile didn't do what the cops expected him to do.

In most of those cases the victims did something wrong. They either committed a crime (even if it was just a misdemeanour or whatever) or they behaved in a way the cops didn't like (not in terms of being violent or something, but maybe just not getting out of the car like the man in this case here). And all the time the first thing the cops do is pull their guns. Just like with George Floyd where the cop knocks on his window, Floyd doesn't react immediately and then out comes the gun. To me that shows that there is someting seriously wrong with the mentality of a lot of the law enforcement people in the US. Shooting someone should be a last resort, if there is actual danger. Not something that happens at a traffic stop where a person might have made a mistake. Having said that, the amount of guns out there in the US certainly doesn't make it easier for the cops, so you would have to sort that issue out as well in my view. It can't be an excuse though to be shooting everyone who does not immediately follow your orders. Or the issue that poverty plays a huge part in certain areas and that crime goes along with that. It's just so many things that are going on in the US that exacerbate the situation and they can't be sorted out overnight. And it's not helping that the US is one country, but every state, county, city and whatever have their own rules and regulations. I think there are police departments who actually try and change things with special kind of training or raising awareness, but it just seems that there are too many who don't really care about those things.

[oldfordie]

Leaving the racism out of it as it's all too easy to just assume all the problems in policing in the US are down to racism. it's far more complicated than that.
One US police force invited some UK police over to observe how they police troubled areas, they wanted to learn how UK police manage to avoid so many of the problems US police suffer.
First observation by UK police was US police draw their guns far too quickly, they escalate the situation to high level straight away when they should be talking first to calm the situation. one of the cops drew his gun as they were knocking on Floyds side of the car. he immediately escalated the situation to a high level, there was absolutely no reason for this except fear.
One US policeman was talking about how people grow up in the safety of middle class backgrounds. completely out of touch of life in the poorer areas of a city, they join the police and suddenly they are walking around areas full of blacks and crime, they are terrified, everyone is a potential criminal.
Relaxed gun laws also have a hidden consequence in the US which hardly gets acknowledged, police walk around in fear assuming everyone has a gun so they draw their gun as a first response and escalate the situation straight away.
I think it's pretty obvious how they felt about Floyd. they were s,, scared of him and over reacted at every stage of the arrest.

[So… Howard Philips]

First observation by UK police was US police draw their guns far too quickly, they escalate the situation to high level straight away when they should be talking first to calm the situation. one of the cops drew his gun as they were knocking on Floyds side of the car. he immediately escalated the situation to a high level, there was absolutely no reason for this except fear.
One US policeman was talking about how people grow up in the safety of middle class backgrounds. completely out of touch of life in the poorer areas of a city, they join the police and suddenly they are walking around areas full of blacks and crime, they are terrified, everyone is a potential criminal.
Relaxed gun laws also have a hidden consequence in the US which hardly gets acknowledged, police walk around in fear assuming everyone has a gun so they draw their gun as a first response and escalate the situation straight away.

And here's a good example;

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56707979

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

An officer in Minneapolis has killed another unarmed black male.   

Now the cops are firing tear gas and attacking the protesters.

[Mumm-Ra]

There was an incident in Chicago a couple of weeks ago that has things on edge now, a 13 year old was shot and killed by the police. The family is going to see the bodycam video this week and I think the city is going to ask them to not have it made public. It feels like the city is ready to go up again.

I don't know what the video is going to show but the circumstances of the shooting sound...reasonable, if that's the right word - two gang members in an alley at 2am shooting at cars, one gets shot by police with a gun in his hand. But the video of a tiny kid getting shot could cause some real waves

[stoa]

Fucking hell... They just showed the bodycam footage of the incident at a press conference and it looks like the female officer wanted to use her taser when the man who was shot was resisting arrest and tried to flee and she pulled her handgun instead. In the video you can even hear her shout "Taser, taser, taser" and then shortly after she is shocked when she realises that she used her gun.

[Mumm-Ra]

Fucking hell... They just showed the bodycam footage of the incident at a press conference and it looks like the female officer wanted to use her taser when the man who was shot was resisting arrest and tried to flee and she pulled her handgun instead. In the video you can even hear her shout "Taser, taser, taser" and then shortly after she is shocked when she realises that she used her gun.

Oh no...that is just terrible all round. It sounds familiar too, wasn't there another case like that recently where the cop thought they were shooting a taser?

[So… Howard Philips]

Fucking hell... They just showed the bodycam footage of the incident at a press conference and it looks like the female officer wanted to use her taser when the man who was shot was resisting arrest and tried to flee and she pulled her handgun instead. In the video you can even hear her shout "Taser, taser, taser" and then shortly after she is shocked when she realises that she used her gun.

So sheer incompetence then.

Shows the danger of routinely arming police.

[Hazell]

Fucking hell... They just showed the bodycam footage of the incident at a press conference and it looks like the female officer wanted to use her taser when the man who was shot was resisting arrest and tried to flee and she pulled her handgun instead. In the video you can even hear her shout "Taser, taser, taser" and then shortly after she is shocked when she realises that she used her gun.

Yeah. Watching the press conference, the Chief of Police said officers are trained to put guns on their dominant side and tasers on their non-dominant side.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

So sheer incompetence then.

Indeed. And damning evidence of a lack of mens rea too.

[So… Howard Philips]

Indeed. And damning evidence of a lack of mens rea too.

Unless the officer was saying that just to cover the use of the gun - stretching things a bit.

[stoa]

The judge just gave a quick update on where they are and what the plans are in the Derek Chauvin trial. It seems like the defence will start presenting their case soon and they'll be finished by Friday or even Thursday. So, the plan now is to have the closing arguments for both sides on Monday and then the jury will deliberate. Friday might be off, because the judge said he doesn't want the closing arguments on Friday, because the jury will be sequestered afterwards meaning they would have to spend the weekend away from home and he doesn't want to do that to them.

Another decent day for the prosecution in my view. The first expert (cardiologist) was pretty good, but I'm not so sure about the second one. He made good points, but as a person he was just a bit too full of himself I feel. His points still stand though.

[Red Beret]

Unless the officer was saying that just to cover the use of the gun - stretching things a bit.

I thought that myself too, but dismissed it as too fanciful.  If the cop says "taser" when they always meant to use their gun, then they're clearly saying it for the benefit of the bodycam. But it would say a lot that a cop would rather look incompetent than malicious or trigger happy. It's not really a great alibi.

Weird they have to announce deploying a non lethal weapon like a taser but not drawing a gun?

[John C]

The judge just gave a quick update on where they are and what the plans are in the Derek Chauvin trial.

Cheers stoa, I may have flicked over at the wrong time but it didn't seem to be on CNN when I had a look.

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

Unless the officer was saying that just to cover the use of the gun - stretching things a bit.

That would be very hard to prove though. Manslaughter all over this.

[So… Howard Philips]

That would be very hard to prove though. Manslaughter all over this.

I agree. But looking at the video he seems to squirm free of the officer attempting to handcuff him and jumps back in the car, presumably to drive away. I initially thought he was running away so she would have time to assess the situation and draw the right weapon, which appears to have been her intention.

I can only assume the speed of his evading the handcuffs and the possible danger of him driving off caused her to panic. But I've only seen a clip of the incident so who knows?

[GBF]

I think Iraq needs to invade USA and bring peace and democracy there

How do they train those police officers in that shithole country?

[stoa]

I agree. But looking at the video he seems to squirm free of the officer attempting to handcuff him and jumps back in the car, presumably to drive away. I initially thought he was running away so she would have time to assess the situation and draw the right weapon, which appears to have been her intention.

I can only assume the speed of his evading the handcuffs and the possible danger of him driving off caused her to panic. But I've only seen a clip of the incident so who knows?

I don't really think there is anything in the bodycam footage that might suggest that this was anything than a mistake by the officer. You can hear how shocked she is after she realises what she has done. She even drops the gun immediately as if it was a hot potato. It was a terrible accident, but given the cirumstances it will be very important how this will be dealt with. Anything else but real punishment for her (i.e. more than just losing her job and a slap on the wrist) and there will be massive unrest. I kind of feel that this will be a more difficult case to handle for the authorities than the Chauvin trial. I still can't see Chauvin getting away with it, but I could see a jury acquitting the police officer in this case.

[Dull Tools]

How can you mistake a gun for a taser?

[Jshooters]

How can you mistake a gun for a taser?

Good point...surely a gun is multiple times heavier and made of metal whereas I believe a taser is plastic?

[GBF]

Good point...surely a gun is multiple times heavier and made of metal whereas I believe a taser is plastic?

roughly 1kg difference

like holding a litre of water vs. an empty bottle

[RedGuy]

I wouldn't hurry to judge her, it's obvious her training wasn't good enough (not good at all I'd even say...). The weight difference isn't something that would go through her mind in tense situations like this.

[FlashGordon]

I wouldn't hurry to judge her, it's obvious her training wasn't good enough (not good at all I'd even say...). The weight difference isn't something that would go through her mind in tense situations like this.

She was a 26 year veteran, not some kid fresh from the academy.