Topic: Naby Keita Watch

[LallanaInPyjamas]

He just needs a run of games, people expect injured players to come back and boss things straight away. Has he met expectations so far? 100% no, but you can see the potential. And he always plays better when he's playing regularly.

Last night was his fourth game since a minor muscle strain... it's a complete red herring. He's not getting a run of games because he isn't fulfilling his manager's tasks to a high level.

[CraigDS]

I didn't say his inclusion 'doesn't change' how good we are defensively; I said one change isn't going to suddenly make us defensively porous. So clearly you're not reading properly, and just jumping on things like you always do. It's not an interesting way to debate, apologies.

How can you possibly say "One change in central midfield isn't going to result in us suddenly becoming porous defensively .... We're an elite team offensively and defensively." with a straight face then?

You quite clearly mean, "One change in midfield, other than Keita, who I think leaves us weaker defensively"

No need for apologies, if you just say what you mean rather than contradicting yourself we'll all be fine.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

How can you possibly say "One change in central midfield isn't going to result in us suddenly becoming porous defensively .... We're an elite team offensively and defensively." with a straight face then?

You quite clearly mean, "One change in midfield, other than Keita, who I think leaves us weaker defensively"

Putting words in people's mouths is not an interesting way to debate. You should have learned that by now.

[Melbred]

He just needs a run of games, people expect injured players to come back and boss things straight away. Has he met expectations so far? 100% no, but you can see the potential. And he always plays better when he's playing regularly.

Just as recently as December, he was influential for us.. bossing it in the Leicester demolition and then putting in MOTM performances against Bournemouth and Salzburg.

The injuries are a concern though and IMO the only thing holding him back. If anyone is doubting him on that basis, then I can understand the view from a reliability perspective.

An injury free Naby getting regular games though will come good.

[CraigDS]

Putting words in people's mouths is not an interesting way to debate.

Flip flopping about not really making any sense isn't either.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Flip flopping about not really making any sense isn't either.

It might make more sense if you take the time to read it and debate with it, rather than jumping on things you don't agree with in half-arsed, smart-arse ways. All the best.

[groove]

Still leads the squad in progression/packing stats by quite a bit. He is the best forward progresser of the ball in the squad. Still the only member of the squad to come anywhere close to the front three in terms of chance creation and involvement.

Small sample size of 360 minutes, but I think it's a carry on from last season.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Still leads the squad in progression/packing stats by quite a bit. He is the best forward progresser of the ball in the squad. Still the only member of the squad to come anywhere close to the front three in terms of chance creation and involvement.

Small sample size of 360 minutes, but I think it's a carry on from last season.

This is kind of where I take issue. With the word 'good'. As in 'just' good. It underrates what actually happened in his best games. When you look at the top end of his performances for us, they are a level above what our other midfielders are capable of. And he's the youngest of them all.

I think these are good and very fair points. But the bold is the key. Most stat users will warn against using a small sample size to make grand conclusions.

He's made three starts against relegation-threatened sides, with the other start - and by far his most impressive performance of the season imo, along with the one at Salzburg - coming at Leicester.  De Facto made a point last night that he'd use Oxlade in more even games and Keita against bus-parkers. Personally, I think it's probably the opposite. Keita looks a little lost tactically in games like last night to me. He can be slow to plug gaps from more direct passes, and slow in circulating the ball to help break them down. Against sides who have more possession against us (like Leicester and Salzburg), his ball progression and snappy tackling style often comes to the fore.

[Hank Scorpio]

Ox changes it up slightly in that he's probably our best outside of the box shooter, but what Keita can do is play short interchange passes with any of the front 3 around the edge of the box. He allows our attacks to vary between wide and through the middle which makes us so much harder to defend against, and plays to the strength of all our front 3 who love the ball around that area.

This is fair.  I think he probably is the one that does this more than most.  I'm not sure he is hugely effective at it but then there is the argument that sort of play has greater risk and less likely to come off but when it does it is huge.

I guess part of the issue with Keita is the level of promise and expectation.  There are greater expectations of him than say AOC.  But he has work to do and I'm not sure it should be considered a guarantee we continue to invest time in him. 

[CraigDS]

This is fair.  I think he probably is the one that does this more than most.  I'm not sure he is hugely effective at it but then there is the argument that sort of play has greater risk and less likely to come off but when it does it is huge.

It's massively more risky than just passing a ball out wide to TAA or Robbo. Just look at the stick Salah is getting for being 'wasteful' around the box, and he's the other main one who plays close around the box like that.

I guess part of the issue with Keita is the level of promise and expectation.  There are greater expectations of him than say AOC.  But he has work to do and I'm not sure it should be considered a guarantee we continue to invest time in him.

There is definitely a weird amount of expectation on him, and a lot is based on a bit of a misconception as to how he played at RB. I think some were thinking we were having a proper no 8 coming in, a Gerrard in that he'll drive the team single handedly from the edge of our own box to the edge of theirs, but that was never his game there.

[AndyMuller]

He just needs a run of games, people expect injured players to come back and boss things straight away. Has he met expectations so far? 100% no, but you can see the potential. And he always plays better when he's playing regularly.

But it's been this same excuse ever since he arrived.

[CraigDS]

But it's been this same excuse ever since he arrived.

When has he managed to get a decent run of games though when fully fit?

[clinical]

How many games has Keita played in row for us?

I reckon it's something like 5 max.

[Melbred]

When has he managed to get a decent run of games though when fully fit?

Just look at some of the posts in this very thread in December when he actually had a good run of games.

All of a sudden we're not sure if he's going to cut it here..

[AndyMuller]

When has he managed to get a decent run of games though when fully fit?

Is this going to be the case throughout the rest of his Liverpool career though? We are an elite team and can't have players like this going forward.

[Coolie High]

He just needs a run of games, people expect injured players to come back and boss things straight away. Has he met expectations so far? 100% no, but you can see the potential. And he always plays better when he's playing regularly.

Exactly it’s bizarre, the same people will criticise Origi as if he is supposed to play to his best ability when he only ever gets the last 10 minutes of games and the odd start here and there, anyone not named Sturridge(which puts into perspective just how talented that lad was) will generally need a run of games to get their rhythm back and dust off the cobwebs, from professional to amateur level you get better and stronger and more assured the more games you play without having to constantly sit out due to injuries.

[Knight]

The idea that Klopp doesn't trust or rate him keeps coming up and keeps being wrong. Klopp, for the most part, trusts the occupant of the jersey. When a player like Keita keeps getting injured he misses both the time spent injured and then misses game time with the time it takes for Klopp, either because of rotation or fitness, to bring him back in. Everyone needs to remember that he started Barcelona away last season. A game where defensive solidity was massively important as well an ability to fit tactically and cut passing lanes and every other stick people use to beat him. Obviously injuries have been a massive problem and may well stop him fulfilling his potential long term. However, if he'd been as consistently fit as others have been, would he have been in the starting 11 most of the time since he arrived? I think there's a very good argument to be made that the answer to that question is yes. Statistically he's bossing it and yes this season it's a small sample size but it continues from last season AND it continues from his time in Germany.

[CraigDS]

Is this going to be the case throughout the rest of his Liverpool career though? We are an elite team and can't have players like this going forward.

Well none of us are really placed to be able to answer that. The fact he's getting game time when not injured suggests we are looking to continue with him.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

The most important thing is that Klopp has belief in him.

[hesbighesred]

Is this going to be the case throughout the rest of his Liverpool career though? We are an elite team and can't have players like this going forward.

At the moment he's a player who, due to injury, has contributed at largely elite levels from a relatively limited amount of time. Unless we're paying him obscene wages, isn't that a very, very useful player to have? We need depth in the squad - if absolutely nothing else, Keita has provided that exceptionally well, surely?

The most important thing is that Klopp has belief in him.

100%. Klopp has belief in everyone he buys and, while he might well let a player quietly run their contract down or accept a better offer elsewhere, he is *never* going to show someone the door if they have the right character and mentality and they're consistently producing the goods *off* the pitch.

One of the ironies of Klopp's success is that that his teams perform so well because, actually, what happens during the 90 minutes of matchplay is far from being the only thing that determines whether Klopp picks a player or has faith in them or not.

[Yorkykopite]

The pitch seemed too big for him to be effective. It was surprisingly big since West Ham stretched play more than anyone thought they would. Consequently there were big open spaces in midfield and a lot of ground to cover for our central midfielders. Wijnaldum and the others are now masters of this of course. Their first instinct on recovering the ball or receiving it from a colleague is to shrug off the opponent's challenge and then carry the ball forward at speed. As they do so they are generally faced by our three attackers also ploughing ahead, making the pitch bigger still. In these circumstances you want your midfielders to be quick over long distances with the ball at their feet.

Keita isn't like that. I said last night that he is an excellent player who would be more suited to Barcelona than us. He's not slow exactly, but his speed with the ball happens over short distances, not long - and he has the gift of appearing to maintain that speed in areas which are crowded. Give him two opponents doubling up on him and he's likely to dribble past them both, or deliver a quick pass and move to a colleague just a few paces away. Give him the big pitch, and teammates moving away from rather than towards him, and he's redundant.

Last night I expect that Klopp thought West Ham would present just a dense, massed, low-lying defence. Keita therefore was a sensible choice. But in fact there were only a few occasions where Liverpool were faced by that kind of massed defence - mainly in the first half. I thought then that Keita looked to be the player most likely to break through. He offered his trademark incisions through the centre but none of the one-twos quite came off (usually because Firmino and Mane weren't precise enough). But in the second half, with the bigger pitch, he was an irrelevance. Oxlade-Chamberlain showed how to play the game as soon as he came on.

I'd consider him for Atletico however. That might be exactly the kind of game in which his skills prosper. A Hendo-Fabinho-Gini midfield might be a redundant one against them.

PS He wasn't helped last night by Mane's dreadful performance in the first 65 minutes.

[hesbighesred]

Interesting perspective, thank you Yorky.

EDIT:
I only watched the last half hour or so but that also seemed to me why Oxlade-Chamberlain was so effective - the game seemed stretched and relatively open and I think he absolutely excels when he can turn and run at players. Not that he's ineffective when there's little space but he doesn't quite have the speed of thought and foot to escape from locked boxes in the way that Keita and Gini do.

[thaddeus]

With his well-documented injury problems, the shambolic way he was treated in the last AFCON and the next AFCON coming mid-season next season I'd like to see him retire from international duty.  I just think he'd benefit from having those extra weeks training with the club and having his fitness managed by Liverpool without Guinea jeopardising that.

And before I get accused of disrespecting African football, my disrespect is universal for international football.  National managers running players into the ground with no concern for what state they return them to their clubs in isn't new or restricted to African teams (if I was a Spurs fan I'd be very unhappy about how England utilise Harry Kane).

[CraigDS]

The pitch seemed too big for him to be effective. It was surprisingly big since West Ham stretched play more than anyone thought they would. Consequently there were big open spaces in midfield and a lot of ground to cover for our central midfielders. Wijnaldum and the others are now masters of this of course. Their first instinct on recovering the ball or receiving it from a colleague is to shrug off the opponent's challenge and then carry the ball forward at speed. As they do so they are generally faced by our three attackers also ploughing ahead, making the pitch bigger still. In these circumstances you want your midfielders to be quick over long distances with the ball at their feet.

Keita isn't like that. I said last night that he is an excellent player who would be more suited to Barcelona than us. He's not slow exactly, but his speed with the ball happens over short distances, not long - and he has the gift of appearing to maintain that speed in areas which are crowded. Give him two opponents doubling up on him and he's likely to dribble past them both, or deliver a quick pass and move to a colleague just a few paces away. Give him the big pitch, and teammates moving away from rather than towards him, and he's redundant.

Last night I expect that Klopp thought West Ham would present just a dense, massed, low-lying defence. Keita therefore was a sensible choice. But in fact there were only a few occasions where Liverpool were faced by that kind of massed defence - mainly in the first half. I thought then that Keita looked to be the player most likely to break through. He offered his trademark incisions through the centre but none of the one-twos quite came off (usually because Firmino and Mane weren't precise enough). But in the second half, with the bigger pitch, he was an irrelevance. Oxlade-Chamberlain showed how to play the game as soon as he came on.

I'd consider him for Atletico however. That might be exactly the kind of game in which his skills prosper. A Hendo-Fabinho-Gini midfield might be a redundant one against them.

PS He wasn't helped last night by Mane's dreadful performance in the first 65 minutes.

Sums it up quite well. I said last night part way through the first half the game would be good for Ox due to the amount of space he could sprint into. He showed that as soon as he came on and is almost certainly why that change was made.

I do wonder, if Keita had more games under his belt, if we'd have seen Gini being the one taken off to change the game.

[classycarra]

About three months? Gini's gone up a gear this and last season though, there's no doubt about that, and I think he's the player Keita should be looking to learn from the most as replacing him is the best shot he's got at becoming a mainstay in this side.

Took Fabinho about four months just to get a start, forced by a suspension, let alone be up to speed. Then took a fair few games to get up to speed physically much as it has this season post-injury. Not to slate him but for the sake of perspective for all those rushing to say last night was a bad performance, I don't think Keita has ever played as badly for us as Fabinho did against Shrewsbury.

Chamberlain I think took less time to get on the pitch but took much longer to get up to speed as a centre midfielder in our team. Even in positions requiring less discipline he by his and Klopp's admission looked out of sorts. Remember the league cup game he played, I think against Leicester? Again, Keita probably hasn't ever performed that poorly for us either when returning from injury and getting up to speed or even when he was learning to play centre midfield Klopp's way.

[Agent99]

I've read through the last few pages and you've all brought me round. He's shit. Get rid in the summer.

[disgraced cake]

With his well-documented injury problems, the shambolic way he was treated in the last AFCON and the next AFCON coming mid-season next season I'd like to see him retire from international duty.  I just think he'd benefit from having those extra weeks training with the club and having his fitness managed by Liverpool without Guinea jeopardising that.

And before I get accused of disrespecting African football, my disrespect is universal for international football.  National managers running players into the ground with no concern for what state they return them to their clubs in isn't new or restricted to African teams (if I was a Spurs fan I'd be very unhappy about how England utilise Harry Kane).

I wouldn't blame you for disrespecting African football. The AFCON is fucking shite. The fact it's in January is the biggest joke of it all, besides last year's one. Why move it back to January straight away? 2 tournaments in 18 months 

I also hate the fact they've got to play the Copa America every year now. For some fucking reason. I must have had about 10 games on throughout those tournaments in the summer, usually just half watching them. The funniest thing was during every single game, there wasn't a full stadium in any of them.

[CraigDS]

I wouldn't blame you for disrespecting African football. The AFCON is fucking shite. The fact it's in January is the biggest joke of it all, besides last year's one. Why move it back to January straight away? 2 tournaments in 18 months 

I also hate the fact they've got to play the Copa America every year now. For some fucking reason. I must have had about 10 games on throughout those tournaments in the summer, usually just half watching them. The funniest thing was during every single game, there wasn't a full stadium in any of them.

Because the two organisations running South American and African football are as corrupt as you get and are looking to (personally) pocket as much cash as they can through needless games.

[Yorkykopite]

I've read through the last few pages and you've all brought me round. He's shit. Get rid in the summer.

Odd response to a wee bit of criticism and a lot of praise.

[JackWard33]

Interesting perspective, thank you Yorky.

EDIT:
I only watched the last half hour or so but that also seemed to me why Oxlade-Chamberlain was so effective - the game seemed stretched and relatively open and I think he absolutely excels when he can turn and run at players. Not that he's ineffective when there's little space but he doesn't quite have the speed of thought and foot to escape from locked boxes in the way that Keita and Gini do.

Think AOC was also effective because we seemingly freed him from all defensive responsibilities and told him to go try and win us the game - which made sense.
Great on the attacking end but we were wide open through midfield in the last half an hour whenever we lost the ball

[friendofrocky]

The point here in my opinion is that compared to 2 seasons ago we now have a Naby or an Ox to call upon when Hendo/Milner are out injured... both Naby and Ox know themselves that if all midfielders are fit the more than likely will not be in the starting 11.. but still they are there ready to step in and make a difference...we won last night because we now have a squad. yes there are going to be players better than others in that squad and at different stages of trying to improve themselves to be first 11 regulars and that is where I see both Naby & Ox now, fulfilling a huge role in Klopps bigger plan.

[Ghost Town]

It really seems this way .... but this is the same fan base that has taken our pitch forks if Wijnaldam or Henderson are criticized when they do way less of the ‘Gerrard stuff’ when playing as 8s.

You can also add that this is the same fanbase who have trashed Gini and Hendo mercilessly - many a call about them having ''played their last game for LFC'' and ''never want to see them play for us again'' and so on, but are now purring about the pair (and rightly so).

People never learn. The right to trash players and act like a tit is paramount, it seems. In the future when Naby is doing brilliant things in our midfield and wowing the world, those who are spouting bollocks about him now will pretend they never had.

[Kopenhagen]

I've read through the last few pages and you've all brought me round. He's shit. Get rid in the summer.

So we can't constructively analyze our players in a respectful manner. Got it! 

[Ghost Town]

Last night was his fourth game since a minor muscle strain... it's a complete red herring. He's not getting a run of games because he isn't fulfilling his manager's tasks to a high level.

This is bollocks mate, and you must know it. It's never as straightforward as ''if player is fit and not starting then he is not fulfilling the manager's tasks'' or whatever. You know very well that if a player is out injured it means that other players may well cement a place in the team and become unshiftable. Just because the injured player is fit again, it won't mean he will start getting a regular run of games. And his not getting the games won't say anything about his ability or the manager's view of him. He will just have to wait until an opportunity comes his way, something which may not happen if the cemented regulars keep doing their thing.

Keita has been unfortunate that his injuries have prevented him for cementing a place as a regular at the critical time. Other players have become undroppable powerhouses and now stand in his way. That's the nature of football, esp. Klopp's approach. And it's not a reason to trash Naby.

[clinical]

This is bollocks mate, and you must know it. It's never as straightforward as ''if player is fit and not starting then he is not fulfilling the manager's tasks'' or whatever. You know very well that if a player is out injured it means that other players may well cement a place in the team and become unshiftable. Just because the injured player is fit again, it won't mean he will start getting a regular run of games. And his not getting the games won't say anything about his ability or the manager's view of him. He will just have to wait until an opportunity comes his way, something which may not happen if the cemented regulars keep doing their thing.

Keita has been unfortunate that his injuries have prevented him for cementing a place as a regular at the critical time. Other players have become undroppable powerhouses and now stand in his way. That's the nature of football, esp. Klopp's approach. And it's not a reason to trash Naby.

Exactly this. Trouble is you can only have 11 men on the pitch at once, players who don't play will become a little rusty. It happens. Trouble with Naby is he get a run of games gets really good then gets injured. Let's hope the last part stops.

Naby I feel will be the key to play a team like Atletico in a few weeks.

[Ghost Town]

Most of our success has come from our "functional" midfield - combinations of Hendo, Gini, Milner, and Fabinho. They supply the base for the fullbacks and front three to create and perform. They are in the mould of the Dutch "total footballers" - they've all played multiple positions for us and throughout their careers - and have outstanding tactical awareness. Is it any surprise Klopp thinks Hendo, Gini, and Milner would be the best future coaches of this team? Or that they're captain, vice-captain and fourth captain?

Where does Keita fit into this midfield, when his tactical awareness just isn't on the level on those above? Unsurprisingly, likely the same position he's rotating with Ox right now. And the same criticisms were levelled at Ox just a few weeks ago, and now he "changed the game for us" against WHU.
Considering everything - the first season getting up to speed, the injury-racked season this year - the third season will be huge for him. It'll determine whether he's a mainstay in this team, as people thought he would be, or another dynamic, inconsistent midfield option to be rotated in and out.

But don't you feel that you are underselling the key point here, which is whether, and how easy, or otherwise, it is to switch from a functional midfield to a more progressive, creative one? Or rather how easy is it for a player suited to a more progressive, creative midfield, to be be dropped into the established functional unit and be immediately successful and noteworthy?

We know Klopp likes the functional midfield, the powerplant that allows the fullbacks and front three to bring the creativity to the party. But we also know that Klopp had bought, and looked for (e.g Fakir) midfielders who can provide the creativity. So he must want to utilise both approaches. So it's not like Naby has accidentally revealed himself to be a fish out of water. Klopp has a plan for him - and players of his type - viz a viz the team's development over the coming seasons. It's just some fans who are impatient and calling the player a dud without seeing the bigger picture - or maybe I should say the longer view.

[NotTooXabi12]

Fairly sure he just isn't 'that' good. Very good player sure, just not a world beater that doesn't get into our best team

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Keita imo is better against sides that play like Atletico. Last night was a different type of game and I still don't understand why people compared it to the Atletico match when the game was no where near similar in terms of tempo,space,pace,etc..

[Fitzy.]

This issue with being so brilliant as a collective and having so few negatives to discuss can, I believe, distort certain perspectives and discussions. Any slight imperfection is jumped on with a certain degree of enthusiasm that is possibly disproportionate to the reality of the situation.

Recent performances from the likes of Keita, Ox and even Fabinho are being micro-analysed and overtly criticised and there is, arguably, a complete an utter lack of perspective. Since winning the league in 1990, so many Liverpool players have fallen short of the requisite standard yet probably never really received concerted criticism because we were just grateful to win two out of three games or three out of five. Times were rough and micro-analysing the players wasn't high on the list of gripes.

But now...now we don't know we're born; we're in such a rarefied position that we have licence to criticise good players who just do a job in a team that wins every week. They're somehow failing to meet our expectations even though they are in a team that are more than meeting our expectations. It's a bit nuts when you stand back and think about it.

The nature of forums and social media means that reactions are instant and widespread, which doesn't help.

[Fitzy.]

Fairly sure he just isn't 'that' good. Very good player sure, just not a world beater that doesn't get into our best team

Bit of a moot point. - strongest XIs are a distraction to the business of doing well over 9 months.

Klopp has built a squad to weather a long hard season without any significant drop in quality. The midfield depth is good because that's where most of the leg work takes place. You don't needs 11 world beaters, nothing of the sort in fact. You need about 20 really good players. Keita fits the bill.