Author Topic: The Labour Party (*)  (Read 883440 times)

Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5880 on: April 19, 2017, 11:48:25 pm »
Indeed - though I'd probably argue against that too.

Maybe I'm being a blindly optimistic democrat but despite my tribalism in favour of Labour, I still don't think it's morally wrong for newspapers to dig up accurate political dirt from politicians careers serving the public.

I suspect that an awful lot of context would be lost, probably enough to remove the bolded word. I don't think that anything the Mail prints is accurate, so I doubt a smear piece will be.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5881 on: April 19, 2017, 11:51:18 pm »
I suspect that an awful lot of context would be lost, probably enough to remove the bolded word. I don't think that anything the Mail prints is accurate, so I doubt a smear piece will be.

Most likely true I suppose, certainly for near enough any other Labour leader. I wouldn't touch the Mail for exactly that reason. In my hypothetical I was thinking more in terms of direct quotes with correct context.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5882 on: April 19, 2017, 11:52:36 pm »
I see tomorrow's Independent saying Corbyn won't step down even if Labour are hammered, he will hold on apparently until any rule changes on nominating leadership candidates are put into place.

I find that all too believable personally/

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5883 on: April 19, 2017, 11:57:59 pm »
I see tomorrow's Independent saying Corbyn won't step down even if Labour are hammered, he will hold on apparently until any rule changes on nominating leadership candidates are put into place.

I find that all too believable personally/

If they are hammered, will he be able to carry the NEC? I suspect that after a catastrophe, he may well not be able to get those changes through.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5884 on: April 20, 2017, 01:24:16 am »
If they are hammered, will he be able to carry the NEC? I suspect that after a catastrophe, he may well not be able to get those changes through.

I guess the risk is that if Labour get annihilated and Corbyn stays on all of those in the centre and right of the party will hand back their membership cards and leave the lunatics to run the asylum.

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5885 on: April 20, 2017, 05:17:03 am »
If they are hammered, will he be able to carry the NEC? I suspect that after a catastrophe, he may well not be able to get those changes through.

In an 'ideal' scenario for Corbyn and McDonnell the moderates will be demoralised and leave the party to a rump of Corbynites. Electoral devastation isn't really a big deal for people who never expected to wield power. It will allow for a clear out of the party - purge the Blairites. It will take time but then Corbyn has been waiting thirty years for a chance like this. If it takes ten years of reselections and resignations to allow a takeover of the NEC it will be a 'win' for Corbyn and his mates. A virtual one party state would be worth it to ensure the takeover of the Party apparatus.

We have to remind ourselves that these are people whose life has been spent bitching from the sidelines. Maybe they really think they are going to win but it's really about a life of protest.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5886 on: April 20, 2017, 10:40:28 am »
I'm looking forward to Jeremy's campaign launch speech this morning. Hopefully not waiting too much longer, he's 8 minutes late and counting...

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5887 on: April 20, 2017, 10:46:55 am »
I'm looking forward to Jeremy's campaign launch speech this morning. Hopefully not waiting too much longer, he's 8 minutes late and counting...

My bad. He started on time, but the BBC obviously didn't have their cameras on. They missed the first 10 minutes. Another MSM conspiracy?

Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5888 on: April 20, 2017, 11:01:37 am »
He is playing the outsider line. He has been an MP for 34 years. He is a career politician. It rings hollow.

Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5889 on: April 20, 2017, 11:05:54 am »
"Making sure that everyone pays theirs taxes"

Sets alarm bells ringing. Closing tax loopholes never realises anything like the money that politicians forecast that it will. I am exceptionally wary of any spending commitment made on the back of such illusionary gains. As a soundbite, it's fine. It just should never be relied upon.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5890 on: April 20, 2017, 11:07:13 am »
"Making sure that everyone pays theirs taxes"

Sets alarm bells ringing. Closing tax loopholes never realises anything like the money that politicians forecast that it will. I am exceptionally wary of any spending commitment made on the back of such illusionary gains. As a soundbite, it's fine. It just should never be relied upon.

It's Labour's equivalent of the Tories pledge to deliver efficiency savings in the public sector

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5891 on: April 20, 2017, 11:15:22 am »
There's so much wrong with the structure of Corbyn's rhetoric and his language-of-a-victim, but this bit is good:

Quote
Everyone, and I mean everyone, has a contribution to make and a life to lead. Poverty and homelessness are a disaster for the individual and a loss to all of us.
Positive and differentiating.

Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5892 on: April 20, 2017, 11:19:59 am »
There's so much wrong with the structure of Corbyn's rhetoric and his language-of-a-victim, but this bit is good:
Positive and differentiating.

It lacks the killer soundbite to be repeated ad nauseam on the news. There is little that will spread beyond the relatively small numbers that will listen to the whole speech.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5893 on: April 20, 2017, 11:42:55 am »
It lacks the killer soundbite to be repeated ad nauseam on the news. There is little that will spread beyond the relatively small numbers that will listen to the whole speech.
I agree, but that bit was a positive. It's because Corbyn's speech was written in a manner for consumption by people who already share his views. He's not persuasive. That's down to the structure of his speech:

Don’t be angry at the government ministers running down our schools and hospitals, they tell us, be angry instead at the disabled woman or the unemployed man.

Corbyn's just spent his time speaking for his opponents which is obviously confusing. How can you make a soundbite out of that? He doesn't account for the fact that people think whilst you talk, so they hear "Don't blame X" and think to themselves "oh, okay" and then pick up the sentence somewhere further down the line.

He needs to get to the point - Don't blame X. Blame Tory Y because <reason>. Then he'd have a soundbite.

Also, notice in this example he blames "government ministers" instead of Tory ones. Two years in and he hasn't changed his language to someone intending to form a government. People pick up on these things even if they don't process them in real time.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5894 on: April 20, 2017, 12:04:46 pm »
My bad. He started on time, but the BBC obviously didn't have their cameras on. They missed the first 10 minutes. Another MSM conspiracy?

What programme were you watching?

I saw the introduction by another London MP who made a joke about her mum being in the audience and then she introduced Corbyn who gave his speech and took questions.

All seemed live and unedited/censored.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5895 on: April 20, 2017, 01:04:53 pm »
There's so much wrong with the structure of Corbyn's rhetoric and his language-of-a-victim, but this bit is good:
Positive and differentiating.

At risk of sounding like a heartless bastard, most people aren't in poverty or homeless so focussing on reducing those problems seems a bit pointless to me. People aren't all selfish twats by any means but the vast majority certainly vote out of self-interest - reducing poverty and homelessness (as New Labour did brilliantly) comes after you've convinced people that Labour will work for them.

 If you win, will the voters keep their jobs? Will their taxes stay at the same level or maybe be reduced? Will their kids have a decent school to go to and will parents have a choice? Will people feel their chances of owning their own home will go up if they vote for you? These are the questions you've got to convince people on. If they don't trust you on these issues they frankly couldn't give a toss about poverty and homelessness.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5896 on: April 20, 2017, 01:56:42 pm »
@KateHoeyMP
Thanks to all who have asked me to stand as Vauxhall's Labour candidate once more. Pleased to confirm & look forward to a positive campaign


Look forward to you getting the trashing you deserve....

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5897 on: April 20, 2017, 03:10:58 pm »
Reports anti-establishment, anti-nepotism Jeremy Corbyn is planning on getting his son the Walton seat. Not confirmed yet but I'd love to see any Corbynite try to defend that one...
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea and he conquered the bloody world! And that's what I wanted; for Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

Offline SP

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5898 on: April 20, 2017, 03:15:42 pm »
Reports anti-establishment, anti-nepotism Jeremy Corbyn is planning on getting his son the Walton seat. Not confirmed yet but I'd love to see any Corbynite try to defend that one...

Cambridge Graduate, interned for McDonnell. Appears never to have had a proper job. 

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5899 on: April 20, 2017, 03:28:43 pm »
Reports anti-establishment, anti-nepotism Jeremy Corbyn is planning on getting his son the Walton seat. Not confirmed yet but I'd love to see any Corbynite try to defend that one...

I thought the only thing Corbyn had going for him was that he is a man of principles? I think he is an utter waste of time as Labour leader as he is presiding over their descent into electoral irrelevance, but there were some of his principles that I thought deserved credit. If he were to carry out this typical self-serving political act he will have confirmed he is a complete fraud both in terms of leadership and principles.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5900 on: April 20, 2017, 03:38:01 pm »
I thought the only thing Corbyn had going for him was that he is a man of principles? I think he is an utter waste of time as Labour leader as he is presiding over their descent into electoral irrelevance, but there were some of his principles that I thought deserved credit. If he were to carry out this typical self-serving political act he will have confirmed he is a complete fraud both in terms of leadership and principles.

Descriptions of decency, kindness, honesty and being principled are very easy to self-assign. Just look at the "compassionate conservatism" branding.

It's probably the greatest success of his many expensive communications staff that some of that branding has stuck. How frequently do you hear people preface their views of him with lines like 'now, i think he's a decent guy, but the problem is he's totally incompetent'

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5901 on: April 20, 2017, 03:44:02 pm »
Along the same lines of Labour - Coyne suspended from Unite...

Offline Alan_X

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5902 on: April 20, 2017, 04:13:40 pm »
Thornberry says Ł70,000 may not be 'rich' after all.

Speaking on Thursday, Thornberry said wealth would be relative to other factors. “I think there are many people on Ł70,000 who may well feel that their circumstances are such that they are not rich,” she told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.

“Many people feel that the elite has not been taken on. People who don’t think the rules apply to them. People who feel they can keep their wealth offshore and avoid paying taxes.

“There has begun to be a view around that ordinary people are the only ones who should be paying taxes and it’s about time that stopped. It’s been glacial and we can see there are people who take the mickey, and it’s not fair.”


So that's clear then. And what is the 'view around' that it's only ordinary people who should pay tax?
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Offline Purple Red

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5903 on: April 20, 2017, 04:18:34 pm »
Descriptions of decency, kindness, honesty and being principled are very easy to self-assign. Just look at the "compassionate conservatism" branding.

It's probably the greatest success of his many expensive communications staff that some of that branding has stuck. How frequently do you hear people preface their views of him with lines like 'now, i think he's a decent guy, but the problem is he's totally incompetent'

Basically every times someone speaks about him they say that. It's a good point about self-assigning values. I don't follow mainland politics extremely closely but I imagine my opinion about Corbyn comes as much from what others say about him as opposed to what he says himself.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5904 on: April 20, 2017, 06:03:32 pm »
Thornberry says Ł70,000 may not be 'rich' after all.

Speaking on Thursday, Thornberry said wealth would be relative to other factors. “I think there are many people on Ł70,000 who may well feel that their circumstances are such that they are not rich,” she told BBC Radio 4’s Today programme.

“Many people feel that the elite has not been taken on. People who don’t think the rules apply to them. People who feel they can keep their wealth offshore and avoid paying taxes.

“There has begun to be a view around that ordinary people are the only ones who should be paying taxes and it’s about time that stopped. It’s been glacial and we can see there are people who take the mickey, and it’s not fair.”


So that's clear then. And what is the 'view around' that it's only ordinary people who should pay tax?


Its strange, 6 months ago i moved into this bracket (new job which gave me 50% payrise)  and compared with where i was before i definitely feel richer but i wouldn't say i'm rich.

Would i mind being taxed more, not at all, in fact it surprised me that the limit at which you pay 40% increased this month.....i dont need that help.  I lost child benefit, again i dont mind.  those with the broadest shoulders and all that.

i think the term'rich' was probably the wrong one to use.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5905 on: April 20, 2017, 07:07:56 pm »
What programme were you watching?

I saw the introduction by another London MP who made a joke about her mum being in the audience and then she introduced Corbyn who gave his speech and took questions.

All seemed live and unedited/censored.

I was watching the BBC News channel (Victoria Derbyshire). I only realised the speech had started when I opened the Guardian's daily political events blog and saw Jeremy on the live feed. It was Norman Smith on the BBC who simultaneously mentioned that Jeremy has form for not starting events on time.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5906 on: April 20, 2017, 07:21:13 pm »
Disorganized maybe?
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5907 on: April 20, 2017, 09:43:28 pm »
Reports anti-establishment, anti-nepotism Jeremy Corbyn is planning on getting his son the Walton seat. Not confirmed yet but I'd love to see any Corbynite try to defend that one...
4 hours earlier he was talking about cosy elites, then he parachutes his totally unqualified son to a safe labour seat. Gobshite trump wannabe.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5908 on: April 20, 2017, 09:44:31 pm »
Has anyone identified the suitable candidates for the hundreds of seats they need to try to take from the Tories nationwide?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5909 on: April 20, 2017, 09:49:06 pm »
4 hours earlier he was talking about cosy elites, then he parachutes his totally unqualified son to a safe labour seat. Gobshite trump wannabe.

https://www.rt.com/uk/385454-seb-corbyn-election-labour/

It is being denied, but nothing official being released until the leader's office does. Nice to see the slick media operation in force. Tomorrow lunchtime, I think.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5910 on: April 20, 2017, 09:50:24 pm »
Reports anti-establishment, anti-nepotism Jeremy Corbyn is planning on getting his son the Walton seat. Not confirmed yet but I'd love to see any Corbynite try to defend that one...

If it means Joe Anderson gets fucked off i'm all for it
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5911 on: April 20, 2017, 10:07:02 pm »
If it means Joe Anderson gets fucked off i'm all for it

 In what world is parachuting your son into a safe seat which he has no affinity with defensible? Talking about Anderson is pure whataboutery.
"My idea was to build Liverpool into a bastion of invincibility. Napoleon had that idea and he conquered the bloody world! And that's what I wanted; for Liverpool to be untouchable. My idea was to build Liverpool up and up and up until eventually everyone would have to submit and give in."

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5912 on: April 20, 2017, 10:13:10 pm »
If it means Joe Anderson gets fucked off i'm all for it
anderson would be a far more credible candidate than Sebastian Corbyn. Then again how was he qualified to be McDonnell's chief of staff?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5913 on: April 20, 2017, 10:22:20 pm »
anderson would be a far more credible candidate than Sebastian Corbyn. Then again how was he qualified to be McDonnell's chief of staff?
Now, we have to remember that this hasn't been confirmed.

I cannot believe that Corbyn, in his fight against the elite parliamentary world would promote his own son to a safe seat.  No, that would be the most grotesque eliteism, it won't happen.
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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5914 on: April 20, 2017, 10:23:10 pm »
Now, we have to remember that this hasn't been confirmed.

I cannot believe that Corbyn, in his fight against the elite parliamentary world would promote his own son to a safe seat.  No, that would be the most grotesque eliteism, it won't happen.
his son was chief of staff for McDonnell, how was he qualified for that role?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5915 on: April 20, 2017, 10:24:25 pm »
Now, we have to remember that this hasn't been confirmed.

I cannot believe that Corbyn, in his fight against the elite parliamentary world would promote his own son to a safe seat.  No, that would be the most grotesque eliteism, it won't happen.

Whereby the alternative explanation of it being bollocks, but his office have been incompetently slow to spike the story is all too credible. The damage from the story has been done. The rebuttal will not have nearly as great a reach when they deign to issue it.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5916 on: April 20, 2017, 10:26:43 pm »
Its strange, 6 months ago i moved into this bracket (new job which gave me 50% payrise)  and compared with where i was before i definitely feel richer but i wouldn't say i'm rich.

Would i mind being taxed more, not at all, in fact it surprised me that the limit at which you pay 40% increased this month.....i dont need that help.  I lost child benefit, again i dont mind.  those with the broadest shoulders and all that.

i think the term'rich' was probably the wrong one to use.

Was it really that big a deal? 70k is a lot of money.

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5917 on: April 20, 2017, 10:27:03 pm »
his son was chief of staff for McDonnell, how was he qualified for that role?
At 25 with an extensive career in a temporary job packing Christmas hampers, young Sebastian (a true workers name their) had all the necessary experience of not being likely to resign.
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5918 on: April 20, 2017, 10:29:50 pm »
Who calls their children Sebastian?

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Re: The Labour Party (*)
« Reply #5919 on: April 20, 2017, 10:30:52 pm »
Who calls their children Sebastian?

Big Athletics fans.