Author Topic: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya  (Read 23371 times)

Offline puroresu_kid

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Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« on: November 23, 2016, 09:23:13 am »
This sad state of affairs has been going on for a few years now without much main stream media traction.

Starting to see a few more things appear and well twitter is sad showing the plight of the Rohingya people. 

The UN have been shockingly silent once again.  I guess calling out a nobel peace prize winner in Aung San Suu Kyi for the persecution of the muslim minority don't quite fit the narrative of a peace loving person.

Now what happens when eventually these people fight back as in time surely they will.  At some time I expect to see arms and men travel from Bangladesh and then an insurgency happens. They become terrorists or they just defending those being persecuted?

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/opinion/myanmars-war-on-the-rohingya.html?ref=opinion&_r=1&referer=https://t.co/PpnVMtGTgH

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Myanmar has long persecuted the country’s Rohingya Muslim minority, denying it basic rights to citizenship, to marry, to worship and to an education. After violence unleashed in 2012 by Buddhist extremists drove tens of thousands of Rohingya out of their homes, many risked their lives to escape in smugglers’ boats; more than 100,000 others are living in squalid internment camps. Now, a counterinsurgency operation by Myanmar’s military is again forcing thousands of Rohingya to abandon their villages.

Over the weekend and on Monday, according to Reuters, hundreds of Rohingya Muslims crossed from Myanmar into Bangladesh seeking shelter from the escalating violence. An official from the International Organization for Migration, a United Nations agency, told the news agency that he had seen more than 500 people enter its camps in the hills near the border. Meanwhile, Reuters also reported fighting between security forces and rebels on Myanmar’s border with China.

The military’s counterinsurgency operation began as a response to an attack on Oct. 9 by armed assailants that left nine police officers dead in Rakhine State. It is not clear who the assailants were, and theories range from drug gangs to Islamist terrorists. Since then, more than 100 people, mostly civilians, have been killed by the military. Satellite images published by Human Rights Watch indicate that at least 430 homes were burned in villages in northern Rakhine State between Oct. 22 and Nov. 10.

There are credible allegations of soldiers looting, killing unarmed people and raping women. The government denies this. U Aung Win, the chairman of a Rakhine State investigation into the Oct. 9 attack, said soldiers would not rape Rohingya women because they “are very dirty.”

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-myanmar-rohingya-idUSKBN13H0EG

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COX'S BAZAR, Bangladesh/YANGON Hundreds of Rohingya Muslims from Myanmar crossed the border to Bangladesh over the weekend and on Monday, aid workers said, seeking shelter from escalating violence in the northwest that has killed at least 86 people and displaced some 30,000.
An official from the International Organization for Migration (IOM), the United Nations' migration agency, who did not want to be identified, said he had witnessed more than 500 people enter its camps in the hills near the border on Monday.
Aid workers from other United Nations agencies and Reuters reporters in the IOM camps also reported seeing Rohingyas who said they had recently fled the fighting in Myanmar. The UN workers did not give specific numbers, but expressed concern about a sudden influx of people.

The bloodshed is the most serious since hundreds were killed in communal clashes in the western Myanmar state of Rakhine in 2012, and is posing the biggest test yet for the eight-month-old administration of Nobel Peace Prize winner Aung San Suu Kyi.
Soldiers have poured into the area along Myanmar's frontier with Bangladesh, responding to coordinated attacks on three border posts on Oct. 9 that killed nine police officers.

Moulavi Aziz Khan, 60, from a village in northern Rakhine, said he left Myanmar last week, after the military surrounded his home and set fire to it.
"At that time, I fled with my four daughters and three grandsons to a nearby hill ... later, we managed to cross the border," he said.
Myanmar's military and the government have rejected allegations by residents and rights groups that soldiers have raped Rohingya women, burnt houses and killed civilians during the military operation in Rakhine.
 

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2016, 09:26:24 am »
Ethnic cleansing, pure and simple. The silence of Aung San Suu Kyi is depressing.
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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2016, 10:29:15 am »
How do we know if violence is "Buddhist extremism" (which is an oxymoron) or Bamar Nationalism? Apparently Myanmar has 135 different ethnic groups, so what's the particular beef with the Rohingya?

Offline puroresu_kid

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2016, 10:56:44 am »
How do we know if violence is "Buddhist extremism" (which is an oxymoron) or Bamar Nationalism? Apparently Myanmar has 135 different ethnic groups, so what's the particular beef with the Rohingya?

They are Muslim and seen as foreigners from Bangladesh.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2016, 11:41:02 am »
They are Muslim and seen as foreigners from Bangladesh.
I wonder where that idea came about?
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The Rohingya insurgency in Western Myanmar is an ongoing insurgency in northern Rakhine State (also known as Arakan), Myanmar (Burma), waged by insurgents belonging to the Rohingya ethnic minority. Most clashes have occurred in the Maungdaw District, which borders Bangladesh.

From 1947 to 1961, local mujahideen fought government forces in an attempt to have the mostly Rohingya populated Mayu peninsula in northern Rakhine State secede from Myanmar, so it could be annexed by East Pakistan (present-day Bangladesh). During the late 1950s and early 1960s, the mujahideen lost most of its momentum and support, resulting in most insurgents surrendering to government forces.

In October 2016, clashes erupted on the Myanmar-Bangladesh border, resulting in the deaths of 102 people, excluding civilians.
So, the situation is slightly more complex than "Buddhist Extremist violence" which is both lazy and inaccurate.

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Legal Framework

The Rohingya people have been denied Burmese citizenship since the Burmese nationality law (1982 Citizenship Act) was enacted. The Government of Myanmar claims that the Rohingya are illegal immigrants who arrived during the British colonial era, and were originally Bengalis.

The Rohingya that are allowed to stay in Myanmar are considered 'resident foreigners' and not citizens. They are not allowed to travel without official permission and were previously required to sign a commitment not to have more than two children, though the law was not strictly enforced. Many Rohingya children cannot have their birth registered, thus rendering them stateless from the moment they are born.

In 1995, the Government of Myanmar responded to UNHCR's pressure by issuing basic identification cards, which does not mention the bearer's place of birth, to the Rohingya.Without proper identification and documents, the Rohingya people are officially stateless with no state protection and their movements are severely restricted. As a result, they are forced to live in squatter camps and slums.
Looks like The Government of Myanmar have for convenience rendered the Rohingya stateless, ie. No claim to Myanmar soil, and in the process are denying what are supposed to Universal Human Rights. And as usual ordinary, poor people suffer and die.

Offline puroresu_kid

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2016, 11:52:13 am »
So what happened between 47-61 really has no bearing on what is happening now for a non violent people who just want to live.

How can a leader who claims to be non violent and won a nobel peace prize award say nothing while villages get burnt to the ground and people displaced. 
Stateless they maybe but Aung San Suu Kyi should be doing more.

As I said in the op eventually there will be blowback.  Bangladesh is seeing protests and the angrier people get the more chance arms and men from Bangladesh will seek to start armed resistance.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2016, 12:28:53 pm »
How can a leader who claims to be non violent and won a nobel peace prize award say nothing while villages get burnt to the ground and people displaced. 
Stateless they maybe but Aung San Suu Kyi should be doing more.
I totally agree she should be doing more. Something. Though I haven't seen any evidence that she's not non-violent.
Quote
So what happened between 47-61 really has no bearing on what is happening now for a non violent people who just want to live.

As I said in the op eventually there will be blowback.  Bangladesh is seeing protests and the angrier people get the more chance arms and men from Bangladesh will seek to start armed resistance.
SO, what might happen is exactly what did happen between 1947-1961. How can you say it has no bearing? You don't get to pick up the narrative at your convenience. This is the blowback from post-colonial borders that cut across ethnic lines. It's a bit late in the day to talk about the "start [of ]armed resistance". It started in 1947. Besides, what business is it of the Bangladeshis? They have a sizable ethnic cleansing skeleton in their cupboard. The only guarantee if people choose to take up arms against the state is that thousands, possibly ten of thousands of people will die. I hope it doesn't come to that.

Offline puroresu_kid

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2016, 12:37:59 pm »
I totally agree she should be doing more. Something. Though I haven't seen any evidence that she's not non-violent.SO, what might happen is exactly what did happen between 1947-1961. How can you say it has no bearing? You don't get to pick up the narrative at your convenience. This is the blowback from post-colonial borders that cut across ethnic lines. It's a bit late in the day to talk about the "start [of ]armed resistance". It started in 1947. Besides, what business is it of the Bangladeshis? They have a sizable ethnic cleansing skeleton in their cupboard. The only guarantee if people choose to take up arms against the state is that thousands, possibly ten of thousands of people will die. I hope it doesn't come to that.

It wont be the Bangladesh state. Like what happened with Bosnia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan Muslims will seek to go and defend other Muslims. 

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2016, 12:57:51 pm »
It wont be the Bangladesh state.
I was talking about Myanmar.
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Like what happened with Bosnia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan  Muslims will seek to go and defend other Muslims. 
Or Muslims exporting terrorism, depending on your point of view. I'm not sure fighting in Myanmar will have the same pull as fighting The West in the middle east.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2016, 01:50:22 pm »
So what happened between 47-61 really has no bearing on what is happening now for a non violent people who just want to live.

How can a leader who claims to be non violent and won a nobel peace prize award say nothing while villages get burnt to the ground and people displaced. 
Stateless they maybe but Aung San Suu Kyi should be doing more.

As I said in the op eventually there will be blowback.  Bangladesh is seeing protests and the angrier people get the more chance arms and men from Bangladesh will seek to start armed resistance.
Because her image is a facade. It's a completely manufactured one to suit her westen suitors in Wall Street and London. It's not silence. It's complicity. Bought and paid for.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #10 on: September 6, 2017, 08:55:23 am »
Take away Aung San Suu Kyi’s Nobel peace prize. She no longer deserves it

George Monbiot

Once she was an inspiration. Now, silent on the plight of the Rohingya in Myanmar, she is complicit in crimes against humanity

Few of us expect much from political leaders: to do otherwise is to invite despair. But to Aung San Suu Kyi we entrusted our hopes. To mention her name was to invoke patience and resilience in the face of suffering, courage and determination in the unyielding struggle for freedom. She was an inspiration to us all.

Friends of mine devoted their working lives to the campaign for her release from the many years of detention imposed by the military dictatorship of Myanmar, and for the restoration of democracy. We celebrated when she was awarded the Nobel peace prize in 1991; when she was finally released from house arrest in 2010; and when she won the general election in 2015.

None of this is forgotten. Nor are the many cruelties she suffered, including isolation, physical attacks and the junta’s curtailment of her family life. But it is hard to think of any recent political leader by whom such high hopes have been so cruelly betrayed.

By any standards, the treatment of the Rohingya people, a Muslim minority in Myanmar, is repugnant. By the standards Aung San Suu Kyi came to symbolise, it is grotesque. They have been described by the UN as “the world’s most persecuted minority”, a status that has not changed since she took office.

The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Genocide describes five acts, any one of which, when “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group”, amounts to genocide. With the obvious and often explicit purpose of destroying this group, four of them have been practised more or less continuously by Myanmar’s armed forces since Aung San Suu Kyi became de facto political leader.

I recognise that the armed forces retain great power in Myanmar, and that Aung San Suu Kyi does not exercise effective control over them. I recognise that the scope of her actions is limited. But, as well as a number of practical and legal measures that she could use directly to restrain these atrocities, she possesses one power in abundance: the power to speak out. Rather than deploying it, her response amounts to a mixture of silence, the denial of well-documented evidence, and the obstruction of humanitarian aid.

I doubt she has read the UN human rights report on the treatment of the Rohingyas, released in February. The crimes it revealed were horrific.

It documents the mass rape of women and girls, some of whom died as a result of the sexual injuries they suffered. It shows how children and adults had their throats slit in front of their families.

It reports the summary executions of teachers, elders and community leaders; helicopter gunships randomly spraying villages with gunfire; people shut in their homes and burnt alive; a woman in labour beaten by soldiers, her baby stamped to death as it was born.

It details the deliberate destruction of crops and the burning of villages to drive entire populations out of their homes; people trying to flee gunned down in their boats.

And this is just one report. Amnesty International published a similar dossier last year. There is a mountain of evidence suggesting that these actions are an attempt to eliminate this ethnic group from Myanmar.

Hard as it is to imagine, this campaign of terror has escalated in recent days. Refugees arriving in Bangladesh report widespread massacres. Malnutrition ravages the Rohingya, afflicting 80,000 children.

In response Aung San Suu Kyi has blamed these atrocities, in a chillingly remote interview, on insurgents, and expressed astonishment that anyone would wish to fight the army when the government has done so much for them. Perhaps this astonishment comes easily to someone who has never visited northern Rakhine state, where most of this is happening.

It is true that some Rohingya people have taken up arms, and that the latest massacres were triggered by the killing of 12 members of the security forces last month, attributed to a group that calls itself the Arakan Rohingya Salvation Army. But the military response has been to attack entire populations, regardless of any possible involvement in the insurgency, and to spread such terror that 120,000 people have been forced to flee in the past fortnight.

In her Nobel lecture, Aung San Suu Kyi remarked: “Wherever suffering is ignored, there will be the seeds of conflict, for suffering degrades and embitters and enrages.” The rage of those Rohingya people who have taken up arms has been used as an excuse to accelerate an existing programme of ethnic cleansing.

She has not only denied the atrocities, attempting to shield the armed forces from criticism; she has also denied the very identity of the people being attacked, asking the US ambassador not to use the term Rohingya. This is in line with the government’s policy of disavowing their existence as an ethnic group, and classifying them – though they have lived in Myanmar for centuries – as interlopers. She has upheld the 1982 Citizenship Law, which denies these people their rights.

When a Rohingya woman provided detailed allegations about her gang rape and associated injuries by Myanmar soldiers, Aung San Suu Kyi’s office posted a banner on its Facebook page reading “Fake Rape”. Given her reputation for micromanagement, it seems unlikely that such action would have been taken without her approval.

Not only has she snubbed and obstructed UN officials who have sought to investigate the treatment of the Rohingya, but her government has prevented aid agencies from distributing food, water and medicines to people displaced or isolated by the violence. Her office has accused aid workers of helping “terrorists”, putting them at risk of attack, further impeding their attempts to help people who face starvation.

So far Aung San Suu Kyi has been insulated by the apologetics of those who refuse to believe she could so radically abandon the principles to which she once appealed. A list of excuses is proffered: that she didn’t want to jeopardise her prospects of election; that she doesn’t want to offer the armed forces a pretext to tighten their grip on power; that she has to keep China happy.

None of them stand up. As a great democracy campaigner once remarked: “It is not power that corrupts, but fear. Fear of losing power corrupts those who wield it.” Who was this person? Aung San Suu Kyi. But now, whether out of prejudice or out of fear, she denies to others the freedoms she rightly claimed for herself. Her regime excludes – and in some cases seeks to silence – the very activists who helped to ensure her own rights were recognised.

This week, to my own astonishment, I found myself signing a petition for the revocation of her Nobel peace prize. I believe the Nobel committee should retain responsibility for the prizes it awards, and withdraw them if its laureates later violate the principles for which they were recognised. There are two cases in which this appears to be appropriate. One is Barack Obama, who, bafflingly, was given the prize before he was tested in office. His programme of drone strikes, which slaughtered large numbers of civilians, should disqualify him from this honour. The other is Aung San Suu Kyi.

Please sign this petition. Why? Because we now contemplate an extraordinary situation: a Nobel peace laureate complicit in crimes against humanity.

-------------------------------------------

Fully linked version: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/05/rohingya-aung-san-suu-kyi-nobel-peace-prize-rohingya-myanmar

Petition: https://www.change.org/p/take-back-aung-san-suu-kyi-s-nobel-peace-prize

Offline classycarra

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #11 on: September 6, 2017, 10:08:17 am »
Just to follow that up, I think these are the links for the UN OHCHR and Amnesty reports (I think)

http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/MM/FlashReport3Feb2017.pdf

https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/asa16/5362/2016/en/

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #12 on: September 6, 2017, 10:15:47 am »
Also this today in the New York Review - the Buddhist monk who is whipping up hatred for the country's Muslims :

http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2017/08/31/the-hateful-monk-venerable-w/
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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #13 on: September 6, 2017, 11:15:55 am »
I'm all for the sentiment of the thread but would it not be better served as a general Burma thread which focuses on how the army/government have been systematically targeting many groups as opposed to just one?

Offline puroresu_kid

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #14 on: September 6, 2017, 11:58:13 am »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/06/aung-san-suu-kyi-blames-terrorists-for-misinformation-about-myanmar-violence

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Aung San Suu Kyi has blamed “terrorists” for “a huge iceberg of misinformation” about violence in western Myanmar that has forced more than 140,000 Rohingya refugees into neighbouring Bangladesh.

The de-facto leader of Myanmar is under growing pressure to halt “clearance operations” by security forces in Rakhine state that the United Nations secretary-general has warned could verge on ethnic cleansing.

A statement posted by Aung San Suu Kyi’s office to Facebook on Wednesday said she had spoken with Turkey’s president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan about the crisis that he has repeatedly called a “genocide”.

 
She said the government “had already started defending all the people in Rakhine in the best way possible and expressed that there should be no misinformation to create trouble between the two countries”.

She referred to “fake news photographs” posted on Twitter by Turkey’s deputy prime minister that purported to show dead Rohingya in Myanmar, but in fact were taken elsewhere.

“That kind of fake information which was inflicted on the deputy prime minister was simply the tip of a huge iceberg of misinformation calculated to create a lot of problems between different communities and with the aim of promoting the interest of the terrorists,” the statement said.

Oh look she is now using the Trump Model of fake news.


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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #15 on: September 6, 2017, 12:04:51 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/sep/06/aung-san-suu-kyi-blames-terrorists-for-misinformation-about-myanmar-violence

Oh look she is now using the Trump Model of fake news.
Can you read? From the article you just posted:

Quote
She referred to “fake news photographs” posted on Twitter by Turkey’s deputy prime minister that purported to show dead Rohingya in Myanmar, but in fact were taken elsewhere.

Myanmar: What sparked latest violence in Rakhine?

A fresh outbreak of violence in Myanmar's Rakhine state has caused tens of thousands of Rohingya civilians to flee towards Bangladesh.

The exodus began in the last week of August after Rohingya militants attacked police posts, killing 12 members of the security forces. Dozens of militants are reported to have been killed in both those and subsequent clashes.

When similar attacks on police posts took place last year, Myanmar's military launched a crackdown on the Rohingya that led to claims of severe human rights abuses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41082689

Hence why they're called terrorists.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #16 on: September 6, 2017, 12:15:10 pm »
Can you read? From the article you just posted:

Myanmar: What sparked latest violence in Rakhine?

A fresh outbreak of violence in Myanmar's Rakhine state has caused tens of thousands of Rohingya civilians to flee towards Bangladesh.

The exodus began in the last week of August after Rohingya militants attacked police posts, killing 12 members of the security forces. Dozens of militants are reported to have been killed in both those and subsequent clashes.

When similar attacks on police posts took place last year, Myanmar's military launched a crackdown on the Rohingya that led to claims of severe human rights abuses.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-41082689

Hence why they're called terrorists.

As I said in my original post there was eventually going to be some blowback.  Eventually people who are oppressed pick up arms.

The idea that this has been happening since August is absurd.  These people have been oppressed a lot longer than that and the nobel peace prize winner has denied it whenever she has been questioned on the treatment of these people.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #17 on: September 6, 2017, 12:37:52 pm »
As I said in my original post there was eventually going to be some blowback.  Eventually people who are oppressed pick up arms.

The idea that this has been happening since August is absurd.  These people have been oppressed a lot longer than that and the nobel peace prize winner has denied it whenever she has been questioned on the treatment of these people.
No one has said that?

As Burma gained independence from the British, the Rohingya took up arms against the state and tried to secede and become part of Bangladesh (or East Pakistan as it was then). Divide et impera was part and parcel of colonial policy. The British import in an ethnic minority to an area who are both grateful and more docile than the local population. THe minority are given privileges over the local population, which is all well and good for them... until the British leave. This is not the only time this has happened.

The Rohingya are stateless. I wonder why their country of origin refuses to take them back in such situations.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #18 on: September 6, 2017, 12:40:48 pm »
No one has said that?

As Burma gained independence from the British, the Rohingya took up arms against the state and tried to secede and become part of Bangladesh (or East Pakistan as it was then). Divide et impera was part and parcel of colonial policy. The British import in an ethnic minority to an area who are both grateful and more docile than the local population. THe minority are given privileges over the local population, which is all well and good for them... until the British leave. This is not the only time this has happened.

The Rohingya are stateless. I wonder why their country of origin refuses to take them back in such situations.

But its not really a country of origin now is it.  They have been in Burma for centuries now and its crazy to think they should all now go to Bangladesh as that's where they are really from.  By hook or crook these people have ended up in Myanmar and the state there has to accept they are there to stay and treat them like any over citizen.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #19 on: September 6, 2017, 12:53:59 pm »
But its not really a country of origin now is it.
How can you change your country of origin? It's set in stone. Though, I suppose, this means you'll never refer to "The West" as if you're not part of it.

Quote
They have been in Burma for centuries now and its crazy to think they should all now go to Bangladesh as that's where they are really from.  By hook or crook these people have ended up in Myanmar and the state there has to accept they are there to stay and treat them like any over citizen.
Nope. Since the first First Anglo-Burmese war, 1824. Hence why Myanmar has set the cut off point at 1823, to restrict full citizenship to British Indian migrants who settled after that point.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #20 on: September 6, 2017, 01:10:23 pm »
How can you change your country of origin? It's set in stone. Though, I suppose, this means you'll never refer to "The West" as if you're not part of it.
Nope. Since the first First Anglo-Burmese war, 1824. Hence why Myanmar has set the cut off point at 1823, to restrict full citizenship to British Indian migrants who settled after that point.

Oh so nearly close to 200 years. If we are working on this metric you may as well send Jews in Israel back to Europe, Americans of European origin home, White Australians back home etc etc.

Whether this minority should be full citizens or not isn't really the question right now is it?  The more pressing point is should this minority be subjected to villages being burnt to the ground, women being raped and innocents being killed?  Those people being stateless doesn't really matter when the most important thing is the violence being perpetuated against them needs to stop.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #21 on: September 6, 2017, 01:50:55 pm »
Oh so nearly close to 200 years.
Yes. So, not "centuries". The circumstances of how they came to be in Myanmar/Burma is relevant (imo). Not necessarily the length of time.
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If we are working on this metric you may as well send Jews in Israel back to Europe, Americans of European origin home, White Australians back home etc etc.
I'm not working to any metric. You can if you like.

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Whether this minority should be full citizens or not isn't really the question right now is it?
It's the fundamental reason for all the friction; The Rohingya believe they have ties to the land that pre-date the British, but would rather be part of Bangladesh. Successive Myanmar governments/regimes don't agree and can point to International Law and Sovreignty.
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The more pressing point is should this minority be subjected to villages being burnt to the ground, women being raped and innocents being killed?
Of course, it's intolerable. But, for this to stop, really stop, it is useful to have some idea of why it's happening in the first place.
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Those people being stateless doesn't really matter when the most important thing is the violence being perpetuated against them needs to stop.
It matters to Myanmar. It might not matter to you. A possible solution to this impasse would be for the Bangladesh government to magnanimously grant citizenship to the Rohingya already in their territory. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening and the Rohingya will face a miserable existence, indefinitely in refugee camps.

You need to open your other eye, however. Myanmar was ruled by a military junta until recently. They have, depending on source, the 13th largest military in the world. Taking up arms against the Myanmar state will end badly for anyone who isn't the Myanmar military.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #22 on: September 6, 2017, 02:13:56 pm »
I think we are seeing a defence of racism and possibly even genocide on these pages. Unbelievable.

1823 cut-off point my arse.
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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #23 on: September 6, 2017, 02:32:01 pm »
Ahh. So you admit this isn't a religious conflict then?

Good.



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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #24 on: September 6, 2017, 02:57:09 pm »
Ahh. So you admit this isn't a religious conflict then?

Good.

Is that what is really important to you? There are thousands now being murdered and chased and firebombed out of their homes. But that's ok so long as  Buddhism and Buddhists can be exonerated?

Well forget it. The ethnic cleansing is being provoked by Buddhist spiritual leaders. Their religion clearly provides no shield against genocidal racism and the use of extreme violence. Perhaps it even encourages these things.

As for the policy which deprives the Rohingya - or the "niggers" as the Buddhist leaders are calling them - of their citizenship, you posted what seemed to me to amount to a defence.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #25 on: September 6, 2017, 03:25:27 pm »
Is that what is really important to you?
No, it's what important you (as you demonstrate in the rest of your rant). You're the one who can only see things through your mono-view lens. The key driver in this post-colonial mess is ethnicity, just as ideology was the key driver in the Burmese Way to Socialism, instead of lack of religion.
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There are thousands now being murdered and chased and firebombed out of their homes. But that's ok so long as  Buddhism and Buddhists can be exonerated?

Well forget it.
I will forget it because I've never said it. I've never said it's "ok". It isn't. Neither have "exonerated" anybody, Buddhists or otherwise. I have said that the keeping the Rohingya stateless is intolerable. I've also stated that taking up arms against the Myanmar state is not the right path. It's futile. The net gain will be lots more dead Rohingya. The "blow back" that puroresu_kid talks of also has its' own blow back. Which is what we're witnessing now.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #26 on: September 6, 2017, 03:48:00 pm »
No, it's what important you (as you demonstrate in the rest of your rant). You're the one who can only see things through your mono-view lens. The key driver in this post-colonial mess is ethnicity, just as ideology was the key driver in the Burmese Way to Socialism, instead of lack of religion.I will forget it because I've never said it. I've never said it's "ok". It isn't. Neither have "exonerated" anybody, Buddhists or otherwise. I have said that the keeping the Rohingya stateless is intolerable. I've also stated that taking up arms against the Myanmar state is not the right path. It's futile. The net gain will be lots more dead Rohingya. The "blow back" that puroresu_kid talks of also has its' own blow back. Which is what we're witnessing now.

I'm alive to the multiple origins of the current genocide being committed by the Burmese. Religion is one factor (which you deny), as is socialism, nationalism, racism and land hunger.

You say it is "intolerable" to keep the Rohingya "stateless". Of course it is. That's why the world deplores the Burmese effort to deprive them of citizenship in a land that they've lived in for several generations. And what exactly is your solution to this 'statelessness'? The only one you've suggested that I can see is that neighbouring Bangladesh should give citizenship to the fleeing Muslims. In other words you'd like to see the Burmese government wash their hands of the Rohingya. It must be obvious to anyone with a brain that such a policy, if enacted, will simply encourage the Buddhist mobs to set fire to even more Muslim homes and drive the remnant of the despised minority out of Burma.

This is called 'ethnic cleansing' and, again, I'm amazed that it is being advocated on RAWK.     

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #27 on: September 6, 2017, 04:15:09 pm »
This is called 'ethnic cleansing' and, again, I'm amazed that it is being advocated on RAWK.     

No-one is doing that - not even close. Actually, it's a bizarre conclusion.

It's a shame when someone feels the need to reduce a discussion, which is self-evidently about a complex and sensitive situation, to an inflammatory label, rather than engage with the points being made.

Disappointing.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #28 on: September 6, 2017, 04:22:11 pm »
I'm alive to the multiple origins of the current genocide being committed by the Burmese. Religion is one factor (which you deny), as is socialism, nationalism, racism and land hunger.
I don't deny it, I just don't think it's an important factor. The priest you linked to isn't quoting scripture, is he? I've seen and heard Buddhist Nationalists. They don't talk Buddhism because there's nothing there that remotely condones anything that's going on in Myanmar.
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You say it is "intolerable" to keep the Rohingya "stateless". Of course it is. That's why the world deplores the Burmese effort to deprive them of citizenship in a land that they've lived in for several generations. And what exactly is your solution to this 'statelessness'?
What's yours?
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The only one you've suggested that I can see is that neighbouring Bangladesh should give citizenship to the fleeing Muslims. In other words you'd like to see the Burmese government wash their hands of the Rohingya. It must be obvious to anyone with a brain that such a policy, if enacted, will simply encourage the Buddhist mobs to set fire to even more Muslim homes and drive the remnant of the despised minority out of Burma.
Just as it must be equally obvious to anyone with two eyes that that is exactly what's happening now. And has been happening on and off since independence. The Myanmar government are never going to give the Rohingya full citizenship rights as they will promptly secede. I don't blame them (the Rohingya), but the Myanmar government aren't going to facilitate this.
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This is called 'ethnic cleansing' and, again, I'm amazed that it is being advocated on RAWK.
I know what it is, but I prefer to see live Rohingya, to dead ones. Some people in the West, perhaps you're one, are happy to see other countries in a perpetual state of conflict on a point of principle because they won't be the ones that are doing the dying.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #29 on: September 6, 2017, 04:28:14 pm »
No-one is doing that - not even close. Actually, it's a bizarre conclusion.

It's a shame when someone feels the need to reduce a discussion, which is self-evidently about a complex and sensitive situation, to an inflammatory label, rather than engage with the points being made.


I can only assume you haven't read the thread.

If so, what do you make of this comment:

The Rohingya are stateless. I wonder why their country of origin refuses to take them back in such situations.

By "country of origin" he means the country that their great, great, great, great grand-parents came from. I wonder whether you'd be as complacent if Theresa May's government suddenly decided to strip the citizenship from, and revoke the rights of, anyone in the UK who couldn't prove their fully 'English' origin and their 18th century roots in Britain? 

The Rohingya are "stateless" because the Burmese are chasing them out of their homes.
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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #30 on: September 6, 2017, 04:35:02 pm »
Shameful on the part of Narendra Modi to have visited Myanmar today and not raise the issue with Suu Kyi. Shameful but expected nevertheless, given his and his party's rabid hatred of all things Muslim. India has refused to take in any Rohingya refugees and also plans to deport the 40,000 that remain.
« Last Edit: September 6, 2017, 04:38:53 pm by Gerrvindh »

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #31 on: September 6, 2017, 04:44:25 pm »
Actually, I'm watching it right now with EU citizens.

As deplorable as that is, do you think it is remotely comparable to either what is currently happening in Burma, or your defence of it?
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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #32 on: September 6, 2017, 04:53:35 pm »
As deplorable as that is, do you think it is remotely comparable to either what is currently happening in Burma, or your defence of it?
I'm not defending it, I'm proposing a solution that keeps the maximum amount of Rohingya alive.

What is your solution?

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #33 on: September 6, 2017, 04:53:59 pm »
I can only assume you haven't read the thread.

If so, what do you make of this comment:

By "country of origin" he means the country that their great, great, great, great grand-parents came from. I wonder whether you'd be as complacent if Theresa May's government suddenly decided to strip the citizenship from, and revoke the rights of, anyone in the UK who couldn't prove their fully 'English' origin and their 18th century roots in Britain? 

The Rohingya are "stateless" because the Burmese are chasing them out of their homes.

I have...and I appreciate your contributions in challenging some of the views expressed here.

I interpret zero zero as advocating a pragmatic solution to avoid more blood shed. It was just the reduction of his/her position to an emotive label I didn't feel was helpful.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #34 on: September 6, 2017, 06:21:06 pm »
By "country of origin" he means the country that their great, great, great, great grand-parents came from.

It's a country that didn't even exist when their great, great, great, great grand-parents were alive. It's a country that none of their ancestors ever lived in.

I interpret zero zero as advocating a pragmatic solution to avoid more blood shed. It was just the reduction of his/her position to an emotive label I didn't feel was helpful.

Did anyone ask the people involved if they even wanted to be "taken back"? Is there a distinction being made between being taken back and being sent back? I don't remember anyone, expect possibly Milosevic, suggesting such a pragmatic solution to the problem of ethnic cleansing of Albanians in Kosovo. "Would you be kind enough to disappear yourselves, then there'd be no need for us to exterminate you."

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #35 on: September 6, 2017, 06:40:54 pm »
It's a country that didn't even exist when their great, great, great, great grand-parents were alive. It's a country that none of their ancestors ever lived in.
Migration from the Indian subcontinent to Myanmar (formerly Burma) had taken place for centuries, including as part of the spread of Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam in the region. The historical region of Bengal (now divided between Bangladesh and the Indian state of West Bengal) has historical and cultural links with Rakhine State (formerly Arakan).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_people

You're welcome. It's where they have fled to.
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Did anyone ask the people involved if they even wanted to be "taken back"? Is there a distinction being made between being taken back and being sent back?
The question the Rohingya probably asked is "Would we rather be alive or dead?"

What would be your solution?


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« Last Edit: September 6, 2017, 06:42:48 pm by zero zero »

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #36 on: September 6, 2017, 07:00:17 pm »
What would be your solution?

How about Myanmar stopping the ethnic cleansing to begin with? Or is that too much to ask?

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #37 on: September 6, 2017, 07:03:05 pm »
Did anyone ask the people involved if they even wanted to be "taken back"? Is there a distinction being made between being taken back and being sent back? I don't remember anyone, expect possibly Milosevic, suggesting such a pragmatic solution to the problem of ethnic cleansing of Albanians in Kosovo. "Would you be kind enough to disappear yourselves, then there'd be no need for us to exterminate you."

That's a good point. Does it comes down to motive? There is ethnic cleansing when the purpose is ethnic cleansing. And then there's a pragmatic solution, maybe the best choice of only bad choices, to a pressing and urgent problem, which involves actions that could be described as ethnic cleansing.

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #38 on: September 6, 2017, 07:06:45 pm »
That's a good point. Does it comes down to motive? There is ethnic cleansing when the purpose is ethnic cleansing. And then there's a pragmatic solution, maybe the best choice of only bad choices, to a pressing and urgent problem, which involves actions that could be described as ethnic cleansing.

Don't really know what point you're making here but I'm pretty sure the Nazis would've argued their Final Solution to the  Jewish question would come under the latter...

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Re: Myanmar’s War on the Rohingya
« Reply #39 on: September 6, 2017, 07:11:30 pm »
It's a country that didn't even exist when their great, great, great, great grand-parents were alive. It's a country that none of their ancestors ever lived in.

Did anyone ask the people involved if they even wanted to be "taken back"? Is there a distinction being made between being taken back and being sent back? I don't remember anyone, expect possibly Milosevic, suggesting such a pragmatic solution to the problem of ethnic cleansing of Albanians in Kosovo. "Would you be kind enough to disappear yourselves, then there'd be no need for us to exterminate you."

Well indeed.

Again, I'm flabbergasted that the case is being made (on "pragmatic grounds" of course!) for ethnic cleansing.

Can you imagine what kind of precedent would be set if the United Nations put the onus on Bangladesh to solve the Burmese "Rohingya problem"? It would be a green light for all sorts of regimes to solve their 'minority problem' by hounding them out to the lands of their "origin" (as zero zero would have it).

No doubt I'll be accused of using "emotive" language again, but that's one definition of Fascism isn't it?

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