Topic: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic

[redmanraj]

Looks like all they've done is take stadium/ticketing income from the accounts and then split this over the total reported attendance for all the games that year to get an average cost.

It's a piss poor way of doing it to be honest.

Exactly, not very accurate.

[Harinder]

"Real Life" arguments for whom?  The local minimum wage fan?  The local fan that is better off?  The fan that can drive or fly in for a game regularly?  The fan that saves up a whole year to come visit Anfield for one game?  They're all fans right?

For all those and more. You can't create a metric off a spreadsheet alone. Each price increase adds to cost of day right?

[stevensr123]

The report is quite comprehensive and covers a lot about finances, growth projections infrastructure across the globe, etc worth a look. That tidbit of information hardly makes up any of the report which is why I struggled to find it.

edit here's the link  http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/OfficialDocument/uefaorg/Finance/02/42/27/91/2422791_DOWNLOAD.pdf

that report is bollocks, has man city in the top ten of most attended grounds in europe 

It does show you how absolutely huge we are though (In terms of internet fanbase  ):

Top clubs in website visitors:

United
Arsenal
Liverpool
Real Madrid
Barcelona.

And the distance is huge compared to the rest.

[Danny Boy]

The report is also from 2015 so out of date.

[JCB]

What I found interesting was Swansea have the 19th highest wage bill in Europe, and it accounts for 80% of their revenue. That should ring some alarm bells.... and surprise inclusion of Aston Villa in at number 20.

(For those of you wondering we are 9th @ 56% to revenue).

[gazzam1963]

The thing is people always look to pass the buck to the the Premier League but who are the Premier League. The Premier League is a corporation and it's shareholders are the member clubs. We are not talking about a governing body that makes decisions. The Clubs make the decisions or more specifically the owners of the Clubs make the decisions.

So this is well within the remit of the owners to get together and to put a cap on ticket prices. As you say the easiest solution is to ring fence some of the TV money and use that to lower ticket prices. The owners had no problem getting together and bringing in Premier League rules that prevented themselves making losses so why not look after the fans.

Last seasons total attendances allowing 10% reduction for corporate seats was at 12 million , knocking £15 off every ticket would cost £180 million pound , that can be ring fenced without even touching the sky / bt money . Last season £790 million was distributed between every club just for the overseas rights so ring fencing just 25% of that pays for the reduction .

The bigger clubs want a bigger slice as it's distributed evenly ATM but  all clubs with pressure bore down on them surely could not argue against this redistribution back to supporters and not agents and players . The old chestnut about a disadvantage by unilaterally doing it will be removed too . As for europe these clubs are already amongst the richest .

In my opinion the best way forward is with  united front from all  supporter groups and public lobbying to try
And reward one of the if not most important stakeholder inn this sport .

[Graham Smith]

No one is suggesting reducing allticket prices by £15. The reduction in prices is currently targeted at the Season Tickets and GA tickets.

And no one is saying slashing and burning in one go.

Anyone interested in knowing how many new boxes were created in the new stand?

And I don’t see why dividing total matchday revenue by number attending isn’t a reasonable starting point for these figures, if that’s how they have done it.

I’d guess if they do not include the first season of the new stand that our figure might actually have increased.

[gazzam1963]

I just used the £15 figure as an example of how a percentage of one part of revenue can be used and the reduction of 10% was used to gauge non corporate . By all means allow tourists , corporates pay a bit more but they too will have a tipping point but the players and agents wages and fees account for between 50 and 80 % of all clubs total incomes .

Every time a new bumper deal comes along that turnover percentage doesn't change really just bigger wages and fees . One alexis sanchez deal is now worth a tenner off every premier league attendee for a whole season ...the players are getting off very lightly IMO .

[JCB]

No one is suggesting reducing allticket prices by £15. The reduction in prices is currently targeted at the Season Tickets and GA tickets.

And no one is saying slashing and burning in one go.

Anyone interested in knowing how many new boxes were created in the new stand?

And I don’t see why dividing total matchday revenue by number attending isn’t a reasonable starting point for these figures, if that’s how they have done it.

I’d guess if they do not include the first season of the new stand that our figure might actually have increased.

Guess it makes no difference... the figures are from 2015, if anything its gone up since then *, but I am curious. Goan.

edit * the income per fan that is.

[JCB]

Woah.

Big error on my part. The last link was for the previous year accounts.

I found this for 2016. My bad.

https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/OfficialDocument/uefaorg/Clublicensing/02/53/00/22/2530022_DOWNLOAD.pdf

[Peter McGurk]

Increasing ticket revenue has no basis whatsoever in increasing competiveness. None.

It has happened for 10 years on and off and we’ve won one league cup.

Investing in a proper ground at Anfield would make a difference but that requires very long term investment and vision.

Simply not true. There is a close correlation between income, the ability to spend and competitiveness. For some clubs the ability to spend is more heavily influenced by external sources (Man City) for others like LFC, Matchday Revenue matters more.

LFC's Matchday Revenue has lagged behind direct competitors for many years. For the last 10 years, it would have been about or less than half that of Man Utd, for example. While Liverpool was winning that one League Cup, LFC matchday income was about £40m and has stayed around about there, where Man Utd was winning rather more and Matchday Income was about £108m.

The new Main Stand will allow a massive boost in the ability to spend after costs. The focus to date has been on a higher capacity at relatively low cost and very much higher income proportionately from corporate sales. Compared to the alternative, the increases for non-corporate have been moderate.

The alternative is a new stadium (presumably a 'proper ground') at huge cost, combining higher ticket prices with a lower ability to spend. Ask any Arsenal fan now paying £70 or £90 if they'd rather have stayed at Highbury and look at what has happened to their spending power and competitiveness since 2006.

The big TV income is up for grabs between the top clubs. We have lagged behind on Commercial Revenue but have caught up a little. If you want cheaper tickets and maintaining competitiveness with the necessary finances to make it happen, look for increased supply at low cost after maximising all sources including matchday revenue - safe standing.

[SP]

Discrepancy is probably all those people who come disguised as empty seats. LFC’s attendance figures seem more accurate than most. This will inflate the per capita spend as people actually there do tend to spend more money. It makes direct comparisons difficult.

[Peter McGurk]

Discrepancy is probably all those people who come disguised as empty seats. LFC’s attendance figures seem more accurate than most. This will inflate the per capita spend as people actually there do tend to spend more money. It makes direct comparisons difficult.

Not really. Per Capita spend (Revenue per Seat) is based on seats, not bums on seats.

[stevensr123]

Simply not true. There is a close correlation between income, the ability to spend and competitiveness. For some clubs the ability to spend is more heavily influenced by external sources (Man City) for others like LFC, Matchday Revenue matters more.

LFC's Matchday Revenue has lagged behind direct competitors for many years. For the last 10 years, it would have been about or less than half that of Man Utd, for example. While Liverpool was winning that one League Cup, LFC matchday income was about £40m and has stayed around about there, where Man Utd was winning rather more and Matchday Income was about £108m.

The new Main Stand will allow a massive boost in the ability to spend after costs. The focus to date has been on a higher capacity at relatively low cost and very much higher income proportionately from corporate sales. Compared to the alternative, the increases for non-corporate have been moderate.

The alternative is a new stadium (presumably a 'proper ground') at huge cost, combining higher ticket prices with a lower ability to spend. Ask any Arsenal fan now if they'd rather have stayed at Highbury and look at what has happened to their spending power and competitiveness since 2006.

If you want cheaper tickets, look for increased supply at low cost - safe standing.

where are you from by the way? Not to sound bad or anything,

But liverpools revenue is greater than ever, and match day revenue in terms of normal tickets is small time compared to hospitality and TV revenue - so I am asking you, where are you from?

It's a fair question because I am from liveprool but have lived in Australia where I have earned a shit load of money, I can afford to go the game ten times over, however for me I see the hurt of our locals and what theY are suffering, so I ask, where are you from and why don't you realise tha struggle  ?

For me anyone who actually goes the game week in and week out (and that wasn't me for a season and a half ) they should realise how hard it is for locals and their is fuck all to justify it

[Peter McGurk]

where are you from by the way? Not to sound bad or anything,

But liverpools revenue is greater than ever, and match day revenue in terms of normal tickets is small time compared to hospitality and TV revenue - so I am asking you, where are you from?

It's a fair question because I am from liveprool but have lived in Australia where I have earned a shit load of money, I can afford to go the game ten times over, however for me I see the hurt of our locals and what theY are suffering, so I ask, where are you from and why don't you realise tha struggle  ?

Huyton

And which part about not wanting £90 seats do you not get?

[stevensr123]

Huyton

And which part about not wanting £90 seats do you not get?

do you justify the price then lad?

Because for me their is no justification for charging that much
It isn't about competing  because we haven't competed in fucking years. We are living on history and our  great fans who built this club

[Peter McGurk]

do you justify the price then lad?

Because for me their is no justification for charging that much
It isn't about competing  because we haven't competed in fucking years. We are living on history and our  great fans who built this club

I'm not justifying any price, lad (not to sound too bad or anything).

[SP]

Not really. Per Capita spend (Revenue per Seat) is based on seats, not bums on seats.

The small print in the report said it was based on league and UEFA match attendances.

[WisconsinRed]

I'd be more than happy if we spent £10m less every year on transfer fees and wages combined if it means £10 off every GA ticket all season. I don't think it'd hinder our ability to compete at all.

[BrandoLFC]

For all those and more. You can't create a metric off a spreadsheet alone. Each price increase adds to cost of day right?

I stated I don't expect the prices to come down, not that prices should go up.  Demand exceeds supply.  For all the examples noted and more a price decrease would further increase demand would it not?  Who then gets those cheaper tickets?  What is the club then supposed to do?

[Graham Smith]

Simply not true. There is a close correlation between income, the ability to spend and competitiveness. For some clubs the ability to spend is more heavily influenced by external sources (Man City) for others like LFC, Matchday Revenue matters more.

LFC's Matchday Revenue has lagged behind direct competitors for many years. For the last 10 years, it would have been about or less than half that of Man Utd, for example. While Liverpool was winning that one League Cup, LFC matchday income was about £40m and has stayed around about there, where Man Utd was winning rather more and Matchday Income was about £108m.

The new Main Stand will allow a massive boost in the ability to spend after costs. The focus to date has been on a higher capacity at relatively low cost and very much higher income proportionately from corporate sales. Compared to the alternative, the increases for non-corporate have been moderate.

The alternative is a new stadium (presumably a 'proper ground') at huge cost, combining higher ticket prices with a lower ability to spend. Ask any Arsenal fan now paying £70 or £90 if they'd rather have stayed at Highbury and look at what has happened to their spending power and competitiveness since 2006.

The big TV income is up for grabs between the top clubs. We have lagged behind on Commercial Revenue but have caught up a little. If you want cheaper tickets and maintaining competitiveness with the necessary finances to make it happen, look for increased supply at low cost after maximising all sources including matchday revenue - safe standing.

Read the post - ticket revenue, not revenue/income.

[Harinder]

I stated I don't expect the prices to come down, not that prices should go up.  Demand exceeds supply.  For all the examples noted and more a price decrease would further increase demand would it not?  Who then gets those cheaper tickets?  What is the club then supposed to do?

If we take a small step back

How do you get tickets to Anfield that are sold by the club for general admission?

1 - LFC Bulk Sales
2 - LFC late availability sale and L postcode sale thing

Those who qualify for 1 and 2 usually have a members card.

Demand would be the same fulfilled by those who meet the selling criteria. Price lowering won't change whether you have the credits or not. Price rising could change it though as the cost just simply prices you out

[JCB]

Read the post - ticket revenue, not revenue/income.

Just to help clarify things for everyone:

According to that latest report I posted earlier, ticket revenue aka gate receipts accounts for 20% of the total revenue for Liverpool (p72), note that according to the footnotes this is prior to the Main stand renovation so this has increased since then. I have no idea what the rise is likely to be due to the corporate boxes and I won't even try and guess that.

fyi:

• TV rights accounts for 31% of the revenue (p66). This will have been just before the tv deal hike thus bringing down the gate receipts percentage
• We got another 10% from UEFA for being in the CL that year (p69). For years where we are not playing in the cl the precentage of other revenue streams will therefore be increased.
• There is no breakdown for sponsorship and commercial revenues for Liverpool but on average this accounts for 30% of total revenue for English clubs (p78). I suspect ours is higher than the average due to our status/popularity.

The outstanding percentage above (9%) could be from commercial revenues as I just stated or other sources of income not listed in this report.

[JCB]

Forgot to add: For anyone wondering, UEFA exclude any potential profits from transfers from their calculations. They are listed separately from  revenues in the report.

[gazzam1963]

You say ticket revenue aka gate reciepts , is that different then from match day revenue , because to me match day revenue encompasses many things from actual admission charges , food , drinks , programmes , corporate boxes , seats etc so actual ticket prices are not 20% of the turnover of the club

[BrandoLFC]

If we take a small step back

How do you get tickets to Anfield that are sold by the club for general admission?

1 - LFC Bulk Sales
2 - LFC late availability sale and L postcode sale thing

Those who qualify for 1 and 2 usually have a members card.

Demand would be the same fulfilled by those who meet the selling criteria. Price lowering won't change whether you have the credits or not. Price rising could change it though as the cost just simply prices you out

It's £27 for a members card, how on earth would demand stay exactly the same?  Just the simple fact new members don't have the purchase history?  I think you'd increase re-sale far more than anything else.

[Jake]

Fans being charged for the luxury of buying  tickets is a fucking disgrace. 27 quid to be able to try and buy a ticket, being charged just for wanting to go to the game. Next year there'll be the 100 "platinum" membership* guaranteed five category b games and then those who can't fork out 100 up front have less of a chance of being able to go.

*doesn't exist, but I bet they've considered it.

[JP-65]

Fans being charged for the luxury of buying  tickets is a fucking disgrace. 27 quid to be able to try and buy a ticket, being charged just for wanting to go to the game. Next year there'll be the 100 "platinum" membership* guaranteed five category b games and then those who can't fork out 100 up front have less of a chance of being able to go.

*doesn't exist, but I bet they've considered it.

That was near enough the old PTS scheme, great if you were on it, as I was.

[Jake]

I thought pts was what was given to you guys who sold your shares in the club back to the club?

[Eeyore]

Huyton

And which part about not wanting £90 seats do you not get?

Are you taking the piss Peter the only reason we haven't got £77 tickets is because we walked out.

As for £90 tickets at Arsenal you seem a little confused mate on one hand you are talking about United's success being driven by match day income of around £100m and then completely ignoring the fact that Arsenal have similar revenues.

[JP-65]

I thought pts was what was given to you guys who sold your shares in the club back to the club?

Not at all

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Not at all

thats the ex shareholder allocation, me and my dad thought of getting 4 shares, one for each family member but baulked at the price in 2004 or so, wish we had done so

[Peter McGurk]

Read the post - ticket revenue, not revenue/income.

I have read the post thanks. Ticket Revenue is an important contributor to overall revenue. For clubs like LFC, ticket revenue is more important to overall revenue than other some clubs, who have other resources to draw on.

And ticket revenue at LFC has been largely flat at or around £40m for the largely trophy-less years you are talking about prior to the Main Stand development.

[Peter McGurk]

Are you taking the piss Peter the only reason we haven't got £77 tickets is because we walked out.

As for £90 tickets at Arsenal you seem a little confused mate on one hand you are talking about United's success being driven by match day income of around £100m and then completely ignoring the fact that Arsenal have similar revenues.

Not confused at all. £77 would have been a maximum for non-corporate tickets at Anfield while £90 is a minimum at Arsenal. The fact that the club didn't go there for whatever reason will make it take longer to pay off the main stand.

And Arsenal's lack of resources is down to the fact they have had to pay for a new stadium whereas United have been engaged in a process of gradually redevelopment at relatively low cost for decades.

[Eeyore]

Not confused at all. £77 would have been a maximum for non-corporate tickets at Anfield while £90 is a minimum at Arsenal. The fact that the club didn't go there for whatever reason will make it take longer to pay off the main stand.

And Arsenal's lack of resources is down to the fact they have had to pay for a new stadium whereas United have been engaged in a process of gradually redevelopment at relatively low cost for decades.

Fake News Peter.

At the Emirates the majority of the tickets for the lower tier for an Adult cost £18.50 for a Europa League game, £26 for a Cat C game, £36.50 for a Cat B and £64 for a Cat A game.

Junior tickets range from £5.25 to £24.

https://www.arsenal.com/tickets/member-ticket-prices

[JCB]

You say ticket revenue aka gate reciepts , is that different then from match day revenue , because to me match day revenue encompasses many things from actual admission charges , food , drinks , programmes , corporate boxes , seats etc so actual ticket prices are not 20% of the turnover of the club

I'm just quoting the report on that one mate, it's unclear whether that's included or not in there but at a guess I'd probably agree with you. Match day revenue is therefore probably higher if you include it and it probably accounts for a portion of the remaining un-allocated 9% i stated before. With that in mind matchday revenue could be anywhere from 20% - 29% (although unlikely to be the higher end)... To be fair to all parties lets assume 25%. It's a nice round number.

Regardless of the final amount that figure would have dropped considerably with the new tv deal in place, and then increased somewhat due to the main stand. It's hard to accurately put a number on it without extra info so I'm guessing (and it's just a guess) matchday revenue is currently between 15-25% of total revenue.

[JCB]

Fake News Peter.

At the Emirates the majority of the tickets for the lower tier for an Adult cost £18.50 for a Europa League game, £26 for a Cat C game, £36.50 for a Cat B and £64 for a Cat A game.

Junior tickets range from £5.25 to £24.

https://www.arsenal.com/tickets/member-ticket-prices

That is surprisingly quite cheap. Any idea how much it is for Champions League and Premier League games? I had a look but couldn't see any info on that.

[Eeyore]

That is surprisingly quite cheap. Any idea how much it is for Champions League and Premier League games? I had a look but couldn't see any info on that.

Cat A, B and C are the Premier league games, plus the Europa has two categories the qualifying game and the group stages. As for Champions League games hopefully they will be about a grand each when they eventually qualify. 

Here are an indication of the categories.

September 9    Bournemouth    Premier League    C
September 14    FC Cologne    Europa League    EL4
September 25    West Brom    Premier League    B
October 1    Brighton & Hove Albion    Premier League    C
October 28    Swansea City    Premier League    C
November 2    Red Star Belgrade    Europa League    EL4
November 18    Tottenham Hotspur    Premier League    A
November 29    Huddersfield Town    Premier League    C
December 2    Manchester United    Premier League    A
December 7    BATE Borisov    Europa League    EL4
December 16    Newcastle United    Premier League    B
December 22    Liverpool    Premier League    A
January 3    Chelsea    Premier League    A
January 20    Crystal Palace    Premier League    B
February 3    Everton    Premier League    B
February 22    Östersunds FK    Europa League     EL3
February 24    Manchester City    Premier League    A
March 10    Watford    Premier League    B
March 31    Stoke City    Premier League    B

So basically £26 for the bottom third, £36.50 for the middle tier and £64 for the top 6 or 7.

[JCB]

And yet they're labelled as the most expensive club in the country for seats...When I was looking at their website I saw the huge amount of corporate boxes they have compared to us (and most clubs). I wonder if their gate receipts have been averaged harshly.

[Graham Smith]

Our Main Stand has two boxes.