Topic: Members Sales

[SouthDerryLaggo]

But why should YOU get a credit for buying your mate a ticket?

This is literally the definition of the problem and people see nothing wrong with it

[TwitterJayy]

But why should YOU get a credit for buying your mate a ticket?

Because I’ve spent years going even when we’re shite.
I can’t make a game, I give it to my mate or family member for fuck all, then ye I do want the credit.

There’s also been times I’ve boxed people pairs, who would never of got them if I didn’t have the credit.

If I was doing this all season round, then fair enough but you’ve got people on here, who want to fuck people over missing one game for boxing friends and family.

[TeddyTime33]

Because I’ve spent years going even when we’re shite.
I can’t make a game, I give it to my mate or family member for fuck all, then ye I do want the credit.

There’s also been times I’ve boxed people pairs, who would never of got them if I didn’t have the credit.

If I was doing this all season round, then fair enough but you’ve got people on here, who want to fuck people over missing one game for boxing friends and family.

one game or twenty games if you don't go you shouldn't get credit for going

[TwitterJayy]

This is literally the definition of the problem and people see nothing wrong with it

I’m assuming, this benefits you?
Long term it benefits me but I don’t want to benefiting of people, who are getting shafted for the wrong purposes

[TwitterJayy]

one game or twenty games if you don't go you shouldn't get credit for going

Well it’s never going to work because there’s always going to be a way round it.
Just don’t see why genuine people should be shafted…
People share memberships and season tickets, where they share the credit obviously, so the further we go, they’re card is on the ladder.

Plus another reason why I should get the credit, is if my mate can’t go with his lad, then I’ll just take mine…
The whole point of boxing ye mate is, ye doing a favour an they know the score, if not I’ll be going anyway. The main problem should be touts, but people want to target the wrong people.

[willss]

Is there any real evidence of them changing the ticket transfer rules. It would be strange if they were to do it after the bulk sales!!

[TeddyTime33]

Well it’s never going to work because there’s always going to be a way round it.
Just don’t see why genuine people should be shafted…
People share memberships and season tickets, where they share the credit obviously, so the further we go, they’re card is on the ladder.

Plus another reason why I should get the credit, is if my mate can’t go with his lad, then I’ll just take mine…
The whole point of boxing ye mate is, ye doing a favour an they know the score, if not I’ll be going anyway. The main problem should be touts, but people want to target the wrong people.

don't disagree with much you said but I'm not sure why you think you should keep the credit when you don't actually go just because you do your mates favours sometimes

[SalahsLeftFoot]

Where is the line drawn on what is a reasonable excuse to keep a credit?

There is no line that will satisfy every one so they should just ditch the idea

[SalahsLeftFoot]

But why should YOU get a credit for buying your mate a ticket?

Maybe his mate doesn't have a problem with it ? Plenty of people who get to the odd game per season by this method are just happy that they are seeing a game knowing full well they are in a situation where they'll never be attending enough games for credit history to be important for them.

The only people who seem to have an issue with the current situation are those that would potentially benefit from a rule change.

And how exactly would a rule change affect this scenario ? LFCJayy's mate still goes to the game, LFCJayy loses the credit but he is doing it so infrequently that it doesn't affect his history and someone else still doesn't get the ticket. The only person it affects is LFCJayy and even then it doesn't really affect him at all. It only makes a difference if the rule change leads to everyone in LFCJayy's position returning the ticket to the club - which is a massive assumption considering there is abosolutely zero incentive for them to do it [ they lose the credit and their mate doesn't get to the game ]

[TwitterJayy]

don't disagree with much you said but I'm not sure why you think you should keep the credit when you don't actually go just because you do your mates favours sometimes

And I fully understand that, but even from my personal situation. In our family we have 4 cards and 6 close family members, who use them.
for example
I give my dad my ticket for a one off to take my lad. If I distributed it to his email, I’ll miss out on future rounds because my dad took him instead of me, therefore throwing me off a ladder, for us sharing our tickets in the family.

As already mentioned, I wouldn’t of went but it’s down to the fact I’m giving my arl man a chance to go with his grandson…

[Hij]

If more went back to the club it would be easy for people like his mate to just pick one up via the website and get sorted that way. Which to be honest is probably preferable long term for the club if they are hawking memberships to people and then loads get fuck all in the members sales.

It's obviously great to box mates but in reality the person who will miss out is the next in line who can't get one on the website because it basically was queue jumped and those who perhaps don't have regular match going mates who are able to do the same favour for them.

[TeddyTime33]

And I fully understand that, but even from my personal situation. In our family we have 4 cards and 6 close family members, who use them.
for example
I give my dad my ticket for a one off to take my lad. If I distributed it to his email, I’ll miss out on future rounds because my dad took him instead of me, therefore throwing me off a ladder, for us sharing our tickets in the family.

As already mentioned, I wouldn’t of went but it’s down to the fact I’m giving my arl man a chance to go with his grandson…

but in reality you shouldn't be sharing cards and tickets when there's thousands of people who'd take them

[TwitterJayy]

If more went back to the club it would be easy for people like his mate to just pick one up via the website and get sorted that way. Which to be honest is probably preferable long term for the club if they are hawking memberships to people and then loads get fuck all in the members sales.

It's obviously great to box mates but in reality the person who will miss out is the next in line who can't get one on the website because it basically was queue jumped and those who perhaps don't have regular match going mates who are able to do the same favour for them.

So from your logic, I can’t pass tickets to family no?
Our family have shared fan cards for years and I’m not agreeing we should change the way due to new fans jumping on our success.
No one can ever tell me that I should lose credit because a family member is going on a one off

[TwitterJayy]

but in reality you shouldn't be sharing cards and tickets when there's thousands of people who'd take them

Didn’t see these gloryhunters when we was at home against young boys?

[SalahsLeftFoot]

As I've - and others - have said before there are just far more easier things that are actually bigger problems that the club should be sorting out first. No point getting the low hanging fruit if you still have a ton of rotten fruit in the barrel already

There is just a sense of "a sledgehammer to crack a nut" at play with this rule change. We all know there are probably hundreds of people with memberships/STH will full credit history who haven't set foot in Anfield for years. Yet in order to try and catch them the club implement a method that affects the people who go to 90% of games year after year.

What would be interesting to find out - and presumably the club have the data to do it - is a breakdown of members/STH by how many tickets they transfer compared to how many games they attend. In fact, it shouldn't be too hard to automatically ban any membership/ST that has been transferred more than X times in a season [ not that the touts/credit hunters would be stupid enough to do it through official transfer system ]

[Hij]

So from your logic, I can’t pass tickets to family no?
Our family have shared fan cards for years and I’m not agreeing we should change the way due to new fans jumping on our success.
No one can ever tell me that I should lose credit because a family member is going on a one off

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't blame anyone for doing it that way, I have done myself and over time and it's become incentivised to do exactly that because everyone else is doing it. But it's not exactly what the credit system was introduced for way back when. It was to reward an individuals attendance let's be honest. You'd also hope that the expansion of the Anfield Road reduces the pressure somewhat with an increased supply of tickets so it becomes less of an issue. The main problem is the size of the ground relative to the numbers of people who want to attend.

The most flagrant abuse of it exists on the away ladder to be fair though. No-ones got a hope of hell of getting in (last Premier League game to drop all the way was Blackburn in 2011) because people share them around.

[TeddyTime33]

Didn’t see these gloryhunters when we was at home against young boys?

but we don't live in those circumstances now, we might again soon but for now we have massive odds for every league game in next week's ballot for example, why should you and others be allowed to share cards between people

[Barneylfc∗]

Maybe his mate doesn't have a problem with it ? Plenty of people who get to the odd game per season by this method are just happy that they are seeing a game knowing full well they are in a situation where they'll never be attending enough games for credit history to be important for them.

The only people who seem to have an issue with the current situation are those that would potentially benefit from a rule change.

And how exactly would a rule change affect this scenario ? LFCJayy's mate still goes to the game, LFCJayy loses the credit but he is doing it so infrequently that it doesn't affect his history and someone else still doesn't get the ticket. The only person it affects is LFCJayy and even then it doesn't really affect him at all. It only makes a difference if the rule change leads to everyone in LFCJayy's position returning the ticket to the club - which is a massive assumption considering there is abosolutely zero incentive for them to do it [ they lose the credit and their mate doesn't get to the game ]

It's got nothing to do with his mate, it's to do with him feeling he is entitled to get a credit for a game he didn't go to.

As for the point in bold, it's actually the opposite for me. I have 19 credits. If they do implement a change that I only get a credit for a game I personally go to, I'll be dropping down to the 4+ sale for as long as I'm lucky in the ballots.

[Hij]

What would be interesting to find out - and presumably the club have the data to do it - is a breakdown of members/STH by how many tickets they transfer compared to how many games they attend. In fact, it shouldn't be too hard to automatically ban any membership/ST that has been transferred more than X times in a season [ not that the touts/credit hunters would be stupid enough to do it through official transfer system ]

They should already have a fairly good idea about this because of the distribution option last season (though I know some people sent over QR codes so it's not exactly representative). I'd also be in favour of what you've said there.

[SouthDerryLaggo]

I’m assuming, this benefits you?
Long term it benefits me but I don’t want to benefiting of people, who are getting shafted for the wrong purposes

Not particularly no. Enjoyed last year getting to 14 games cos credits didn’t count. I’m
Back to 3 this season so hopefully I will get four on late availability. I just hate the current situation

[Hij]

For a more extreme example I have a mate who moved from Liverpool back to Spain. He's got max credits in the Champions League. Attends maybe 1 or 2 a season. He's a good mate of mine, and I understand why he does it considering he wants to make sure the option remains open to him. We give the ticket to one of our mates every time we go, so happy days, someone we know gets sorted out. But I think I'm reasonable enough to admit it's also a flagrant abuse of the system and if they did the cups as well in the future, I wouldn't be against his eventually having to go back into the pot to someone who may well want to attend more but struggles to get them.

Another mate has his Dad on another members card on max credits, his Dad does maybe 4 of the league games and he sorts mates etc from his work in Liverpool the other 15. Again, I don't blame him doing this because it's how the system is currently set up and it means he's always got someone to go with. But with competition for tickets so fierce and so many unlucky for games in the members ballot, there's several occasions there where someone could have got one through the club instead.

I'm sure this is multipled out massively amongst the fanbase and impacts greatly on people who are trying to get tickets through the usual means. I don't know what is particuarly wrong with the club ultimately being the seller of the ticket to the person who goes. Seems fair enough to me.

[TwitterJayy]

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't blame anyone for doing it that way, I have done myself and over time and it's become incentivised to do exactly that because everyone else is doing it. But it's not exactly what the credit system was introduced for way back when. It was to reward an individuals attendance let's be honest. You'd also hope that the expansion of the Anfield Road reduces the pressure somewhat with an increased supply of tickets so it becomes less of an issue. The main problem is the size of the ground relative to the numbers of people who want to attend.
The most flagrant abuse of it exists on the away ladder to be fair though. No-ones got a hope of hell of getting in (last Premier League game to drop all the way was Blackburn in 2011) because people share them around.

But the club acknowledges that people share, so can’t really make a new rule up because a few kids buy tickets of strangers and think they should have the credit even tho they know the rules before they buy them

This will only effect me once if it is an actual rule this season and i know that there’s two ways round it.
1) Burner phone
2) scan my phone at the gate, go in an out and go straight back the woman’s 

Both absolutely stupid, but effective.
I’d be surprised if they enforce it.

[Hij]

Think that's a fairly elitist mentality but fair enough.

[TwitterJayy]

Think that's a fairly elitist mentality but fair enough.

So it’s fair due to one very genuine reason, I jump of a ladder, to someone else?
Been to all r dead rubbers over the years but miss out due to the rules. Btw which results in my lad, not being able to go to future games with me.

Fuck that and if people think they wouldn’t do the same are deluded or didn’t go when we was shite

[Hij]

TBF I've said several times that under the current system people are incentivised to do exactly that and I myself have done. I just don't think overall it's inherently fair but it's gone on for so long that everyone is used to it now.

How are you missing out? How many games are you not attending for it to matter?

[red number 9]

But the club acknowledges that people share, so can’t really make a new rule up because a few kids buy tickets of strangers and think they should have the credit even tho they know the rules before they buy them

This will only effect me once if it is an actual rule this season and i know that there’s two ways round it.
1) Burner phone
2) scan my phone at the gate, go in an out and go straight back the woman’s 

Both absolutely stupid, but effective.
I’d be surprised if they enforce it.

Just to clarify, are you meaning that as things stand, you expect to only have to pass your ticket on for one PL game next season due to a specific known situation?

If so, you'd be dropping 1 credit so unless you're borderline and this would drop you from say 13 to 12 credits thus impacting your status the following season, it shouldn't be making any difference at all.

If you're doing almost every game and passing on 1 or 2;
- you're boxing someone off
- they'll potentially be getting the credit
- you'll lose 1-2 credits
- you'll still be eligible for all 19 PL games next season.


It really only impacts you if you're dropping down from 13 into a lower bracket thus impacting your qualification for the following season.

Admittedly cups are a different proposition but lets see what the details are.

[TwitterJayy]

TBF I've said several times that under the current system people are incentivised to do exactly that and I myself have done. I just don't think overall it's inherently fair but it's gone on for so long that everyone is used to it now.

How are you missing out? How many games are you not attending for it to matter?

One champions league game missed can mean you miss the lot?
League games I won’t be assed about because it’s one league game, I see your points and surely we can agree that there’s a difference between the odd game, compared too a constant basis.

You said yourself previously there’s much bigger problems, but I imagine when ye giving tickets away to people yeno is abit different to someone who is giving them to random people over the internet.

The whole point of f&f last season was to erase this shite an that you could only send the ticket to people you know. The sooner they put that in place the better.

The last away you could get was 2012, the time to build credits was 2011 and obviously people like myself wasn’t old enough but that’s the system. People pass of season tickets each year and I’ve been on that waiting list for near enough 20 years now.

If I was to be fucked off because of one game while all this, will still carry on. Then I’d probably pack it in. It shouldn’t be this hard to watch a game of footy, especially your own local team it’s shite. I know the intentions is to erase the above but it only harms those with good intentions.

I know we’re a big club an the demand is massive but surely fans who been there through shit, should be the first thought, not this new breed who want to go the game because it’s fashionable.

[TeddyTime33]

TBF I've said several times that under the current system people are incentivised to do exactly that and I myself have done. I just don't think overall it's inherently fair but it's gone on for so long that everyone is used to it now.

How are you missing out? How many games are you not attending for it to matter?

my opinion too and the status quo would benefit me you and many others on here but I also understand and advocate for change because the current rules are not very fair and aren't fit for purpose in a world where we have thousands of people looking tickets

[TwitterJayy]

Just to clarify, are you meaning that as things stand, you expect to only have to pass your ticket on for one PL game next season due to a specific known situation?

If so, you'd be dropping 1 credit so unless you're borderline and this would drop you from say 13 to 12 credits thus impacting your status the following season, it shouldn't be making any difference at all.

If you're doing almost every game and passing on 1 or 2;
- you're boxing someone off
- they'll potentially be getting the credit
- you'll lose 1-2 credits
- you'll still be eligible for all 19 PL games next season.


It really only impacts you if you're dropping down from 13 into a lower bracket thus impacting your qualification for the following season.

Admittedly cups are a different proposition but lets see what the details are.

Ye and it’s the champions league that I could miss… so all those years would go, if people had it there way. League games this system benefits me a lot but it’s the cups where it’s not as simple as people make out.

Btw your point you make about the league, I can’t argue with, however would be sound if they could do something so say a dad with two kids, can only afford two tickets for each game, the kids take turns and they get the credit on two cards, so they was not to miss out on the big games.

[SalahsLeftFoot]

If so, you'd be dropping 1 credit so unless you're borderline and this would drop you from say 13 to 12 credits thus impacting your status the following season, it shouldn't be making any difference at all.

If you're doing almost every game and passing on 1 or 2;
- you're boxing someone off
- they'll potentially be getting the credit
- you'll lose 1-2 credits
- you'll still be eligible for all 19 PL games next season.


It really only impacts you if you're dropping down from 13 into a lower bracket thus impacting your qualification for the following season.

So you are saying it is acceptable for someone on 14+, or between 5 and 12, to do it (cos it doesn't affect them) but wrong for someone on <4 or 13 to do it ?

[apassant77]

Such a difficult one to answer. I had all 6 on ACS for CL for a number of years but couldn't get a ticket on the Kop a couple of seasons back. Didn't really want to be anywhere else so dropped off the ladder and probably won't ever get the chance to get back on.

That was obviously my fault but I'd hate to see other people losing years of loyalty for just one game that they miss.

Hopefully the club can come up with something that can affect the touts but not punish the regular fans.

[red number 9]

Ye and it’s the champions league that I could miss… so all those years would go, if people had it there way. League games this system benefits me a lot but it’s the cups where it’s not as simple as people make out.

Thanks for clarifying.

I’m fully onboard with the concept of the credit going to the attendee and for league games this shouldn’t cause people too many issues unless they’re borderline on credit thresholds or blatantly abusing the system. My bigger concern on the league games is the other side of the equation with people\touts boosting 13+ Memberships.

For the cups I can see both sides. Missing one game can make a difference both within the current season and future ones.  I had to miss Inter at home last season due to illness so under a credit transfer scheme, I’d have missed out on Paris and wouldn’t have been best pleased but equally the club can’t run an appeals process for every sob story.  Hopefully they’ll find a sensible solution on the cups meaning that if you lose the odd credit, it doesn’t screw you over in the long-term.

[SalahsLeftFoot]

As I said earlier in the thread, I don't blame anyone for doing it that way, I have done myself and over time and it's become incentivised to do exactly that because everyone else is doing it. But it's not exactly what the credit system was introduced for way back when. It was to reward an individuals attendance let's be honest. You'd also hope that the expansion of the Anfield Road reduces the pressure somewhat with an increased supply of tickets so it becomes less of an issue. The main problem is the size of the ground relative to the numbers of people who want to attend.

Actually it probably wasn't ... way back then, they had no way of knowing who was actually attending. At best they only knew that somebody had used the membership card  / ST to enter the ground. So way back then they were rewarding the simple purchasing of a ticket (and were resorting to the fun and games of people going to semis and finals based on the last digit of their membership number). And before that - when it was all paper tickets in a book they didn't even know if a ST holder had even entered the ground at all.

This whole thing of "credits are there to rewarding attendance" is a very new concept for the club relatively speaking.

[red number 9]

So you are saying it is acceptable for someone on 14+, or between 5 and 12, to do it (cos it doesn't affect them) but wrong for someone on <4 or 13 to do it ?

No, I’m saying that transferring a ticket via F&F and losing the credit in the process has little impact in many cases.

And how exactly would a rule change affect this scenario ? LFCJayy's mate still goes to the game, LFCJayy loses the credit but he is doing it so infrequently that it doesn't affect his history and someone else still doesn't get the ticket. The only person it affects is LFCJayy and even then it doesn't really affect him at all. It only makes a difference if the rule change leads to everyone in LFCJayy's position returning the ticket to the club - which is a massive assumption considering there is abosolutely zero incentive for them to do it [ they lose the credit and their mate doesn't get to the game ]

I think we’re saying the same thing 

[SalahsLeftFoot]

Hopefully the club can come up with something that can affect the touts but not punish the regular fans.

They can start with the easy stuff - anyone who transferred their ticket/ST more than, say, 14 times last season especially when they had no reason not to take a holiday for a season is clearly taking the piss and/or a stupid tout and they get the membership/ST cancelled and their IP address blocked. Sure, you can haggle about the cut off point but IMHO 3 is too low, 14 sounds sensible but I am open to wriggle room

[SalahsLeftFoot]

No, I’m saying that transferring a ticket via F&F and losing the credit in the process has little impact in many cases.

Gotcha. But it also doesn't impact those who are expecting more tickets to be opened up because of it as I just can't see why it would unless transfers to F&F is abolished.

[Hij]

Actually it probably wasn't ... way back then, they had no way of knowing who was actually attending. At best they only knew that somebody had used the membership card  / ST to enter the ground. So way back then they were rewarding the simple purchasing of a ticket (and were resorting to the fun and games of people going to semis and finals based on the last digit of their membership number). And before that - when it was all paper tickets in a book they didn't even know if a ST holder had even entered the ground at all.

This whole thing of "credits are there to rewarding attendance" is a very new concept for the club relatively speaking.

It was surely? Otherwise every single game would just be for sale to everyone with no previous requirements needed. Introducing credits was initially a way to ensure that those who were attending the games got priority through the season over those that hadn't. Obviously though people cottoned on that in actual fact the club were actually rewarding people for the purchase for the ticket, not making the game itself.

[TeddyTime33]

Such a difficult one to answer. I had all 6 on ACS for CL for a number of years but couldn't get a ticket on the Kop a couple of seasons back. Didn't really want to be anywhere else so dropped off the ladder and probably won't ever get the chance to get back on.

That was obviously my fault but I'd hate to see other people losing years of loyalty for just one game that they miss.

Hopefully the club can come up with something that can affect the touts but not punish the regular fans.

you won't fall off the UCL if you miss just one game, you'll lose right to ACS and probably lose out on final tickets but you'll be able to get to keep going, in reality the ACS isn't fit for purpose in a world where you transfer/lose credits, each game should be sold individually and it's something the club need to look at The ACS assumes you attend every game as soon as it's a home draw and in reality this isn't the case

[Hij]

One champions league game missed can mean you miss the lot?
League games I won’t be assed about because it’s one league game, I see your points and surely we can agree that there’s a difference between the odd game, compared too a constant basis.

Yes I do agree generally mate. For what it's worth according to Sonofkenny this change won't be impacting on the cups at present so it's only applicable to league games where there is admittedly a lot more wriggle room.

The last away you could get was 2012, the time to build credits was 2011 and obviously people like myself wasn’t old enough but that’s the system. People pass of season tickets each year and I’ve been on that waiting list for near enough 20 years now.

But is it fair though? If someone was 16 in 2011 then they are now 27 years old and seemingly will have no way in for the forseeable future unless they happen to know people with the credits who will sort them. People that are sorted this way take the possibility away from potential new entrants. Southampton went to 1 I think last season, I just think if the sharing of tickets was cut out you may well see it drop to at least all season ticket holders. But again, I'm not sure it's ever possible with away tickets for a variety of reasons and I appreciate this isn't about home games and I'm veering off topic so I'll leave it there mate.

If I was to be fucked off because of one game while all this, will still carry on. Then I’d probably pack it in. It shouldn’t be this hard to watch a game of footy, especially your own local team it’s shite. I know the intentions is to erase the above but it only harms those with good intentions.

I get that and generally the issue is down to the size of the stadium more than anything as demand totally outstrips supply. I imagine if we had a ground the size of Old Trafford this would all be a lot less of an issue. Hopefully the Anfield Road makes a big difference, that's what, 6,000 extra tickets per game over at least say 22 games, so about 132,000 more opportunities for people to go at a minimum.

I know we’re a big club an the demand is massive but surely fans who been there through shit, should be the first thought, not this new breed who want to go the game because it’s fashionable.

True but equally 16-18 year olds from Liverpool (or elsewhere tbf) can hardly have been there through the shite because they physically couldn't do so. I see some of your points though mate and perhaps I'm more on side of being more strict about it, but I think there's certainly an agreement that if you're taking the absolute piss and moving on a large percentage of them over a season, then something should be done.

Also tickets going back through the club should in theory mean that more are available in the days leading up to the game which should make it even easier for locals to get a hold of them as there won't be any requirement to sort travel out, and may make achieving the guaranteed number even easier.

[SalahsLeftFoot]

The ACS assumes you attend every game as soon as it's a home draw and in reality this isn't the case

And you know that how ? I guess it depends on the competition but last season, for example, over 30k people theoretically went to all 3 home FA Cup games. With those games, normally, being on at the weekend I see no reason why someone on the FA Cup ACS is not going to every home game themelves.