Author Topic: The Klopp Template  (Read 1066135 times)

Offline scouse neapolitan

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #120 on: January 9, 2018, 01:57:00 pm »
Should obviously say thread not threat!

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #121 on: January 9, 2018, 02:05:31 pm »
Excellent post redmark, I agree with this one completely, and thank you for a fantastic OP, PoP.

It seems that in the discussion of roles/formations that while I broadly agree with PoP about most of the roles, I'm very much with Redmark on how he interprets Klopp's approach.

Take for example the discussion of Salah as a 9 or an 11, as it were. It seems clear that when he's playing as an 11, he aims to occupy that traditional 9 space. Likewise when he has played as a 9, he isn't staying centrally all game - rather he's pulling wide to that 11 space in order to get the ball or stretch play. He's Henry as a striker or Pedro as a winger, perhaps. Either way, if we moved Firmino to actually play in the 10 space we'd suddenly lose something that makes Firmino/Salah so effective in combination - namely that because Firmino naturally vacates that 9 space to move into the 10 area, it then allows Salah to move into that 9 space.

Which is of course why PoP is urging us to focus on the role rather than the formation in the first place - but the two can't exist in isolation. A role only has meaning in the context of the formation, and likewise what the formation really does is only clear when we look at the roles within it - is a 4-4-2 defensive or attacking? Is it a flat formation? Does it have a lot of width? Those questions are determined by the roles.

What I mean by that is that there's an important difference between Salah in the role of a 9 in the position of a 9, and Salah taking on some of the roles of a 9 when he actually starts the game as an 11.

In that sense perhaps a more helpful way of looking at our current formation would be something like a 4-5-1 in defense and a 4-3-1-2 in attack, where Firmino dropping deeper makes up the 1, and Salah and Mane attacking from wide positions effectively make up the 2 (and notice that it's not like one of them stays wide when the other attacks the box, we regularly see them both in the box).

What this perhaps means is that something like the defensive winger role is not necessary unless Firmino isn't playing. In that case we have no-one to replicate Firmino's role (a fit Ings could perhaps do it) so we replace Firmino with Solanke or Sturridge, but then neither is really effective at pressing AND dropping deeper to knit play and create. So it makes more sense to have someone like Oxlade-Chamberlain as a winger if we are playing Solanke up top - that way we still maintain that essential dynamic of one dropping deeper and two getting (or staying) in behind or on the shoulder of the defense. That also then makes sense (especially with Solanke) in terms of having a winger staying more in a position to cross, rather than Mane and Salah who don't really cross the ball.

In that sense I also agree with redmark - I don't think we should look at Klopp's formation in terms of a 6, an 8 and a 10, or two 6s and an 8. I think Klopp has adapted it to be much more like a deeper 8 and two 8/10 type players - again the 8/10 type players attack that space which Firmino vacatates.

Looking at it this way I think we can also suggest a couple of things about Klopp's roles -

They're all one place 'higher' than is traditional, apart from the 9 who is one place deeper (wingers as strikers, 9 as a creator, midfielders as 10s, the 6 as an 8, full backs as wingers and CBs who push up and distribute, with (ideally) a sweeper keeper) and
Firmino is extremely important. Salah, Mane and both 8/10 type players depend on Firmino dropping to create the space in which they like to operate. Maybe this is why we so often look more disjointed if he either isn't playing or is moved out wide.

This is also why I'm pretty sure Keita will play as an 8/10 and someone like Goretzka would be our deepest midfielder - that deep 8 is a position where Klopp likes height and more physical qualities alongside the stamina and all round midfield skills, whereas having an 8/10 who can break lines with dribbling or through passes who is also a ball-winning machine could add so much to the system we use.

There still remains a question of what to do when Firmino is out.

Do we go with the 'defensive winger' type option? If so, how does that affect the midfield set-up?

Or do we compensate in some other way? If so, how?

Or is my conception of these roles just total nonsense? If so, how? And also bugger off. ;)
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Offline Geormajesty

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #122 on: January 9, 2018, 02:21:41 pm »
Great post. I think the mentioning of Klopp's trips to Bayern is key, it's kind of gone unnoticed how similar Klopp and Guardiola's styles have become. Klopp's is obviously more gung-ho compared to the calmness of Pep's, but there are so many similarities. Klopp found the limits of his Dortmund approach towards the end, and has taken ideas and improved upon his ideas. For a start, Liverpool have always been more of a possession team than Dortmund ever were.

Both Manchester City and Liverpool (and Napoli) play in a 4-3-3, where the number 6 is an all rounder more traditionally thought of as an '8' (Fernandinho and Henderson). The two number 8s are number 10s and have freedom to move with the play. The striker is expected to work hard and drop deep and help contribute to the play. The difference is in the fullbacks and wingers - Klopp likes his wingers to be narrow and his fullbacks to bomb on, Guardiola wants his wingers to stay wide and his fullbacks to move into midfield - but the basic idea is the same.

I think that Klopp will never go for the 'traditional' DM. Yes, he used one at Dortmund, but he wants his number 6 to do different things now.

Offline redmark

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #123 on: January 9, 2018, 02:44:11 pm »
Which is of course why PoP is urging us to focus on the role rather than the formation in the first place - but the two can't exist in isolation. A role only has meaning in the context of the formation, and likewise what the formation really does is only clear when we look at the roles within it - is a 4-4-2 defensive or attacking? Is it a flat formation? Does it have a lot of width? Those questions are determined by the roles.

This is sort of why I highlighted the word 'function' in respect of the #10 'role' in a side that doesn't really play with a #10. A role is really determined by formation, because a role is an individual - but functions (or responsibilities) can be shared. So Firmino's role is to press and play as a 9/10/false 9 - essentially, different 'functions' - and the responsibility of several players to fulfil the #10 'function'.
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #124 on: January 9, 2018, 02:56:43 pm »
There is some brilliant posts in here and a great discussion as we see how the team and Klopp himself adapts his template to the English game. This season has seen us really hit full stride when it comes to our attack as Salah has blown all expectations out of the water as no one, including Klopp expected this. There we were clambering for a 20 league goal man thinking the lad might be the right side version of Mane with Firmino the most likeliest of our "strikers" but its Salah who has found himself in the forward role more often as he has had numerous 1 on 1 with the goalies. Klopps attack is very fluid and you could find anyone in that position which is the ultimate goal in any team, great to watch and only Pep has bested Klopp in terms of forward play this season.

Further back the template gets a little less assured as the bridge btw attack n midfield has lost its main man which doubles the importance Lallana has to our team right now. He is weeks if  not months away from peak fitness so the likes of Ox and Can need to step up with their box to box role. Personally I would go back to a fit Henderson and get him roving again as he was quite good with his late bursts into the box. Gini has gone backwards some what this season and Can is leaving probably so Henderson could fulfill his potential as that box to box player as we really do need a designated holding player in the squad at least instead of converting others in a role that needs a specialist in certain games. Keita I dont have a clue what he brings to the table but he seems like the prodigal son based on our hopes.

Klopps template for defence and goalkeeper really has looked like crap all along. Obviously VVD can only improve us especially away from home as strangely enough we have a very solid home record but is that down to teams not giving it a good go when they visit as when we travel its night versus day with one of the worse defences in the league. 4th worse away versus the best defence at home. Who knows what our template for the backline is but if we can sort that discrepancy out it should be to our favour. Although points gained from away games is virtually identical to our home games...23 points versus 21 points which is quite a surprise for me. That is joint 2nd in the league for points gained from away games. Just shows how potent our attack has been all season as they really have done the business on their travels.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #125 on: January 9, 2018, 03:52:36 pm »
This is sort of why I highlighted the word 'function' in respect of the #10 'role' in a side that doesn't really play with a #10. A role is really determined by formation, because a role is an individual - but functions (or responsibilities) can be shared. So Firmino's role is to press and play as a 9/10/false 9 - essentially, different 'functions' - and the responsibility of several players to fulfil the #10 'function'.

Not to ignore your excellent post from earlier (I'll have to read through it again because it was very good and made some good points), but on this - I think if we assume the #10 role to be a pure playmaker, then Firmino is obviously not fulfilling that role. But if we look at the #10 as an old-style second striker (think Beardsley or Keegan), then Firmino definitely has the chops. The question then becomes "What are we doing with the #9 position?" - and I think for that, rather than referring to the Dortmund side, I think we can look much better at the Arsenal side of the turn of the century, with Henry as the #9 who starts wide, Bergkamp as the second striker, Viera as the 8, Parlour/Grimandi as the #6, Ljunberg as the #7, Wiltord or Overmars the #11, Cole as the attacking fullback, Lauren or Dixon as the defensive fullback, Adams as the defensive stopper, Campbell as the Libero. It was definitely a team based more on the roles they played, than the positions within the formation as we look at it on paper. I think that might be a good "picture" to look at when referring to our team. It's about "Balance" rather than "Symmetry".

We can also refer to the principles of play when we look at positions in the attack. The principles of attack are Penetration (the objective), Depth and Width (team shape), Mobility, Creativity and Surprise (tactics). Within these principles, only Penetration, Depth and Width apply to the "static" team shape:

#1, #4,#5 - Defensive-half Depth
#2, #3 - Defensive half and/or attacking-half Width
#6 - Defensive-half Penetration, attacking-half Depth
#8 - Attacking-half Depth, Defensive-half Penetration, Mobility
#7, #11 - Attacking-half Width
#10 - Attacking-half depth
#9 - Attacking-half Penetration and Depth



Contrary to journalist short-hand, football is usually played in a minimum of four bands (rather than the three we're all used to). If you look at the game this way, and apply the roles according to the four bands, then whether the #9 starts wide or central is less important than whether they play in the "fourth band" up front. Generally, somebody has to occupy that band at some point, whether they start there or not - otherwise there wouldn't be any goals. Which is why the "False Nine" innovation, for me, was never really an innovation - the wingers stayed pushed up in the "Fourth Band" and the #9 dropped off, but there was still Depth to the attack according to the principles of play.

What WAS innovative, though, was the 4-6-0, because it eschewed positional depth for mobility. But that's a different topic ;D

For us, we play traditionally, even if the positions themselves don't have traditional starting points. Salah gives us our attacking depth and penetration, Mane, formerly Coutinho, and one of the fullbacks, give us our width, Can or Henderson gives us our attacking depth, and Gini/Oxlade/Lallana/Coutinho give us our midfield mobility. The start positions are mostly immaterial. What is more important is how we're applying the principles of play, and specifically, attack. And I think with that, we're WAY more traditional than we might look on paper you just wrote the positions down.
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Offline Djozer

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #126 on: January 9, 2018, 03:58:33 pm »
This is a fantastic thread. Cheers POP and subsequent posters for some great posts and fascinating discussion.

I am in no way knowledgeable to post here (although I do have some questions that I might throw in at some point), but I just wanted to show some appreciation. Brilliant stuff guys, please keep it up.

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #127 on: January 9, 2018, 04:12:12 pm »
Excellent post redmark, I agree with this one completely, and thank you for a fantastic OP, PoP.

It seems that in the discussion of roles/formations that while I broadly agree with PoP about most of the roles, I'm very much with Redmark on how he interprets Klopp's approach.

Take for example the discussion of Salah as a 9 or an 11, as it were. It seems clear that when he's playing as an 11, he aims to occupy that traditional 9 space. Likewise when he has played as a 9, he isn't staying centrally all game - rather he's pulling wide to that 11 space in order to get the ball or stretch play. He's Henry as a striker or Pedro as a winger, perhaps. Either way, if we moved Firmino to actually play in the 10 space we'd suddenly lose something that makes Firmino/Salah so effective in combination - namely that because Firmino naturally vacates that 9 space to move into the 10 area, it then allows Salah to move into that 9 space.

Which is of course why PoP is urging us to focus on the role rather than the formation in the first place - but the two can't exist in isolation. A role only has meaning in the context of the formation, and likewise what the formation really does is only clear when we look at the roles within it - is a 4-4-2 defensive or attacking? Is it a flat formation? Does it have a lot of width? Those questions are determined by the roles.

What I mean by that is that there's an important difference between Salah in the role of a 9 in the position of a 9, and Salah taking on some of the roles of a 9 when he actually starts the game as an 11.

In that sense perhaps a more helpful way of looking at our current formation would be something like a 4-5-1 in defense and a 4-3-1-2 in attack, where Firmino dropping deeper makes up the 1, and Salah and Mane attacking from wide positions effectively make up the 2 (and notice that it's not like one of them stays wide when the other attacks the box, we regularly see them both in the box).

What this perhaps means is that something like the defensive winger role is not necessary unless Firmino isn't playing. In that case we have no-one to replicate Firmino's role (a fit Ings could perhaps do it) so we replace Firmino with Solanke or Sturridge, but then neither is really effective at pressing AND dropping deeper to knit play and create. So it makes more sense to have someone like Oxlade-Chamberlain as a winger if we are playing Solanke up top - that way we still maintain that essential dynamic of one dropping deeper and two getting (or staying) in behind or on the shoulder of the defense. That also then makes sense (especially with Solanke) in terms of having a winger staying more in a position to cross, rather than Mane and Salah who don't really cross the ball.

In that sense I also agree with redmark - I don't think we should look at Klopp's formation in terms of a 6, an 8 and a 10, or two 6s and an 8. I think Klopp has adapted it to be much more like a deeper 8 and two 8/10 type players - again the 8/10 type players attack that space which Firmino vacatates.

Looking at it this way I think we can also suggest a couple of things about Klopp's roles -

They're all one place 'higher' than is traditional, apart from the 9 who is one place deeper (wingers as strikers, 9 as a creator, midfielders as 10s, the 6 as an 8, full backs as wingers and CBs who push up and distribute, with (ideally) a sweeper keeper) and
Firmino is extremely important. Salah, Mane and both 8/10 type players depend on Firmino dropping to create the space in which they like to operate. Maybe this is why we so often look more disjointed if he either isn't playing or is moved out wide.

This is also why I'm pretty sure Keita will play as an 8/10 and someone like Goretzka would be our deepest midfielder - that deep 8 is a position where Klopp likes height and more physical qualities alongside the stamina and all round midfield skills, whereas having an 8/10 who can break lines with dribbling or through passes who is also a ball-winning machine could add so much to the system we use.

There still remains a question of what to do when Firmino is out.

Do we go with the 'defensive winger' type option? If so, how does that affect the midfield set-up?

Or do we compensate in some other way? If so, how?

Or is my conception of these roles just total nonsense? If so, how? And also bugger off. ;)

Wonderful post, and just a quick couple of things:

There is nothing that says you HAVE to have a defensive winger, or only one attacking fullback, or only one #10, etc. These are just the traditional roles that create a balanced team (as opposed to the more commonly-desired "symmetrical" one). Having two of one role is absolutely done, but it creates an imbalance somewhere else on the field that has to be compensated for (or not, if you're the strongest team in a weaker league!). Team Tactical Balance is what traditional tactics strive for. How that gets interpreted, obviously, is what gives one team it's shape as opposed to another, and why one manager's 4-3-3 can be widely different to another manager's, even though they are playing the same formation.

The tactical considerations, in general, are:

How high or low will you play your offside line?
How high or low will you start the first pressing actions?
How much width, if any, will you use?
How many players will you leave behind in the defensive phase, in order to being the counter-attack; i.e., how much attacking forward depth do you want?
How static or how mobile will your midfield be?
How central or lateral do you want your strikers movements?

After those (and one or two more considerations), we get to the positions, etc.

In general, the roles of the players will end up dictating the formation, even though we talk about it the other way around. Even though two players might occupy the same area and zone of the field, how they naturally play will actually change the formation of the team - so, for example, if you put Salah as the starting right-winger, and then sub him off for Ray Houghton, you'll get a very different formation, even though they occupy the same area of the field. Which is why it's more helpful to look at formations only for defensive shape, and roles and principles only for the attacking shape.

I do love your idea that we're essentially playing "one position higher", though. There might be something in that!
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Offline wemmick

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #128 on: January 9, 2018, 04:17:57 pm »
Thanks for the OP, Pop. And the excellent response from Redmark. In light of both comments, would it be accurate then to say the biggest change in Klopp's system from Dortmund to this season is replacing the orthodox #10 with a #11/8 hybrid in attack? So that instead of having an orthodox #11, #10, or two #8s placed symmetrically on either side of the #6, Klopp overloads one side in attack, with a #8 and a #11/8 hybrid occupying one side in transition--irrespective of the initial defensive formation. It occurred to me recently that regardless of who has played wide left this season (Coutinho, Mane, Firmino, and Oxlade), they all drop into midfield to overload the left and/or advance the ball into the left-center half space. It doesn't seem to be Coutinho specific. I can also see why we would be in for Lemar in this case. He is a natural #11/8 hybrid, far more than Grosskreutz ever was for Klopp, or Kuyt was for Rafa.

The one thing I would add if that the #11/8 hybrid is perhaps the difference between our fluidity and Dortmund's rigidity. The front four at Dortmund formed an almost perfect diamond in transition. The players might have rotated into a different position, but the shape remained fairly rigid. I don't see a lot of that now.   

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #129 on: January 9, 2018, 04:32:04 pm »
Thanks for the OP, Pop. And the excellent response from Redmark. In light of both comments, would it be accurate then to say the biggest change in Klopp's system from Dortmund to this season is replacing the orthodox #10 with a #11/8 hybrid in attack? So that instead of having an orthodox #11, #10, or two #8s placed symmetrically on either side of the #6, Klopp overloads one side in attack, with a #8 and a #11/8 hybrid occupying one side in transition--irrespective of the initial defensive formation. It occurred to me recently that regardless of who has played wide left this season (Coutinho, Mane, Firmino, and Oxlade), they all drop into midfield to overload the left and/or advance the ball into the left-center half space. It doesn't seem to be Coutinho specific. I can also see why we would be in for Lemar in this case. He is a natural #11/8 hybrid, far more than Grosskreutz ever was for Klopp, or Kuyt was for Rafa.

The one thing I would add if that the #11/8 hybrid is perhaps the difference between our fluidity and Dortmund's rigidity. The front four at Dortmund formed an almost perfect diamond in transition. The players might have rotated into a different position, but the shape remained fairly rigid. I don't see a lot of that now.  

The diamond is at the heart of all football attacking tactics, which is why the Dutch train their players almost exclusively in 4v4 (the lowest number of players you can have to make a diamond). That we don't see it much probably had a lot to do with Coutinho dribbling the ball to try to get shots off, which - though successful in general - also negated our best deep passer: Coutinho. Perhaps with a different player in that role, we'll see more of the natural diamond. Although having said that, Firmino tends to drop off, so perhaps we'll be looking to him to become the more de facto base of the attacking diamond in the final third.
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Offline LallanaInPyjamas

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #130 on: January 9, 2018, 04:51:49 pm »
Looking at it this way I think we can also suggest a couple of things about Klopp's roles -

They're all one place 'higher' than is traditional, apart from the 9 who is one place deeper (wingers as strikers, 9 as a creator, midfielders as 10s, the 6 as an 8, full backs as wingers and CBs who push up and distribute, with (ideally) a sweeper keeper)

I've always thought this about both Klopp and Guardiola, too. It's partly why he's moved most of our midfielders deeper from their natural or previous position (Milner -> LB, Henderson -> 6, Lallana, Wijnaldum, Coutinho, Ox --> 8 ), either temporarily or permanently, and will most likely continue to do so. (The same for Guardiola with Fernandinho -> 6 & KDB and Silva -- > 8.)

Because in a sense, providing the tactics are working and the team is performing and thus we aren't penned back, they're not actually playing much deeper. And in turn the massive benefit is that you can get three genuine attackers onto the pitch ahead of them at once.

The reverse is true for Firmino, as you point out. He's pretty much the exception in being moved higher up the pitch than his previous wide or second striker roles, but again, similarly to how the aforementioned players aren't playing much deeper, he isn't actually playing much more advanced in terms of the areas he takes up on the pitch.

My only surprise is we have seen very little of midfielders playing in central defence under Klopp. He appears to be quite strict when it comes to that defensive triangle of the back two and the six. They must be tall and defensively astute. Ability on the ball is a welcome bonus, whereas for Guardiola it seems to be mandatory.

Offline Roger Federer

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #131 on: January 9, 2018, 05:34:55 pm »
My only surprise is we have seen very little of midfielders playing in central defence under Klopp. He appears to be quite strict when it comes to that defensive triangle of the back two and the six. They must be tall and defensively astute. Ability on the ball is a welcome bonus, whereas for Guardiola it seems to be mandatory.
Some excellent posts on this page, great stuff.

About the above, it seems to be mandatory for Klopp too. The CBs he’s bought here are Matip, Klavan and Van Dijk. All very good with the ball at feet, I’d even go so far as to say it is perhaps Matip’s outstanding quality as a defender. He’s ok at most things, but doesn’t really stand out as a very robust defender first and foremost.

At Dortmund he obviously had Hummels, who is perhaps the best CB in Europe on the ball.
« Last Edit: January 9, 2018, 05:38:39 pm by Roger Federer »

Offline joekim87

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #132 on: January 10, 2018, 01:59:08 am »
Lovely comments by Purslow this morning  ::)

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11669/11200952/liverpool-risk-losing-jurgen-klopp-if-they-do-not-fulfil-his-ambitions-says-christian-purslow

Came on the forums today to comment on Christian Purslow. This guy was saying all the right stuff in my opinion. During that chat with Danny Murphy, it seemed like Murphy was a personification of the average fan who thinks they know all about football and just repeats the headlines. Purslow on the other hand offered really good insight on what was going on and had some great ideas. I hope he still has a say at the club because he is spot on.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #133 on: January 10, 2018, 05:15:47 am »
Came on the forums today to comment on Christian Purslow. This guy was saying all the right stuff in my opinion. During that chat with Danny Murphy, it seemed like Murphy was a personification of the average fan who thinks they know all about football and just repeats the headlines. Purslow on the other hand offered really good insight on what was going on and had some great ideas. I hope he still has a say at the club because he is spot on.

Is this a joke?
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #134 on: January 10, 2018, 06:26:26 am »
Brilliant posts in this thread guys - thanks for kicking it off PoP and for other contributors.  I'm fascinated with the tactical discussion.  What's been interesting for me this season in particular is the lopsidedness of our play. It's something I've been aware of but not so acutely as in this season.  Particularly the idea of the lopsided almost 4-2-2-2 shape and the space that creates and problems it causes for opposition.

Interesting the discussion of who plays the 6 role when Hendo's out and Can not here.  The player has to be good technically to receive the ball under pressure and turn with it, with a good long and short passing game.  I don't think there's anyone in our squad currently that has that complete skill set. 

IN regards to the GK situation, it's a bit confounding that Klopp doesn't appear to be as fixated or focused on improving there as what the majority of the fan base (including me!) seem to be.  It seems so obvious that we are exposed there.  Still hoping we strengthen there almost before anywhere else.  It's inconceivable that Klopp and his staff haven't analysed the hell out of it, and are either biding their time, or thinking it's not the area of concern that the rest of us are convinced it is.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 06:28:54 am by me76 »
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #135 on: January 10, 2018, 08:24:43 am »
Great post PoP and a great reply from redmark. We're clearly pressing less this season than we have last season and below is just another article proving that. I would say that Klopp's continually evolving his system of play. The template remains the same, but after the issues we've had with breaking down busses, it would seem we deliberately allow the opposition to come forward more:

URL: http://www.planetfootball.com/in-depth/analysis-liverpools-17-18-tactics-fast-breaks-early-pressing-rotation/#new_tab

Analysis of Liverpool’s 17-18 tactics: Fast breaks, early pressing & rotation



Dan Clark     9th January 2018

Liverpool are utilising counter attacks better than anyone else in the Premier League this season – and Mohamed Salah is playing a major role.

The Reds have already scored seven goals from what Opta define as ‘fast breaks’, the most in the Premier League and the same amount as Chelsea, who scored the most on their way to the title, managed in the entirety of last season. The season before, when Leicester City won the league, the Foxes recorded the most with six.

Remarkably, Salah alone has scored more goals from fast breaks, three, than all but four Premier League teams have managed in total.

The below graphic shows Liverpool’s average team positions from the recent 3-3 draw against Arsenal. The left image shows the first 15 minutes when Roberto Firmino (9) and Salah (11) were pushed high up the pitch, closing down and pressing the opposition.

Philippe Coutinho (10), Sadio Mané (19), Emre Can (23) and left-back Andy Robertson (26) are supporting the press, all having average positions in the oppositions half.

The second image shows how this changes between minutes 15 and 30; the entire team drops slightly deeper, with the back four in a more conventional shape and James Milner (7) just in front.



You can also see how the team becomes narrower, as they try to stay slightly deeper, ready to spring when the ball is won back.

It’s a subtle change, but by sitting off 5-10 yards more as a team, it invites the opposition to push out more and play, thus leaving them susceptible to the counter-attack.


The addition of Salah in the summer has clearly made a huge difference to Liverpool. Not only for his goals but his speed and danger on the counter-attack, which has added another dimension to the Reds’ attack. Last season, too much emphasis was placed on Sadio Mané.

Liverpool have used this game plan of pressing at the beginning of the game, before dropping deeper, to great success this season. They have scored most frequently between the 15th and 30th minute, netting 14 of their 50 goals in that period, proving their tactic of drawing the opposition out is working.

They’ve only scored once in the first 15 minutes of games.



This tactic of starting the game at a high intensity can be extremely difficult to keep up throughout a season, but Jürgen Klopp clearly recognises this. He has learned lessons from his first two years in charge at Anfield.

The Reds have made 91 line-up changes so far this season in the Premier League, at an average of over four per game – significantly more than any other side.

Southampton have made the next most with 64. Burnley have made the least alterations, making just 19 changes.



Last season, four Liverpool players appeared for more than 85% of minutes, with a clear starting XI all playing in over 60% of minutes available: Mignolet; Clyne, Matip, Lovren, Milner; Henderson/Can, Wijnaldum, Lallana; Coutinho, Firmino, Mané.

This season, game-time has been more evenly shared, with Salah being the only outfield player to feature in over 80% of Premier League minutes.



With the Reds landing a favourable draw against Porto in the last 16 of the Champions League, they will expect to be playing three games a week at the back end of the season.

This time, with the squad rotated more and the wonderful Salah to lead their counter-attacks, Klopp will hope his team can last the pace.

By Dan Clark
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 08:44:01 am by the_red_pill »
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Offline redmark

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #136 on: January 10, 2018, 09:51:03 am »
Brilliant posts in this thread guys - thanks for kicking it off PoP and for other contributors.  I'm fascinated with the tactical discussion.  What's been interesting for me this season in particular is the lopsidedness of our play. It's something I've been aware of but not so acutely as in this season.  Particularly the idea of the lopsided almost 4-2-2-2 shape and the space that creates and problems it causes for opposition.

I think one of the points I was making in response to PoP too, isn't so much about Firmino's role (which I broadly agree on), but about the apparent 'lopsidedness' of our attack - I think its something we should be careful not to overplay; or at least to recognise that it may in part be more of an outcome than an intention.

I've used average position maps in many a discussion/argument on RAWK, but they have limitations - I think I came up with about six on the drive in to work this morning, as they relate to our play this season.

An average position map can be distorted for any player who is not completely 'central', if they switch positions for any significant amount of a game. In one of our earliest games this season I spent a rather dull (and pointless) couple of hours micro-analysing the movements of Wijnaldum for a particular discussion, and noted that while playing predominantly as the 'left' #8 (it might even have been right, I've purged the memory), he spent a few spells - not just passages of play, but periods of 3-7 minutes at a time - switched with Can. This makes the average position graphic look rather narrower than our actual shape may be in reality. For the wide forwards, while they don't switch sides as often as our #8's do (rather unusually, I think), the impact of any switches they do make, from wider starting positions, is more extreme and will affect the average position slightly.

Also, average position can become quite distorted following any significant tactical shift during a game, and particularly following substitutions around 60-70 minutes. Let's say the sort of change we make relatively frequently - we bring on Chamberlain for Mane, say, with 20/25 minutes left; not as a direct replacement, but shifting Firmino left, Chamberlain right and give Salah 10 minutes upfront to stretch the defence (while reducing his tracking back), before we sub him for Solanke. If Salah gets on the ball a few times in that spell, his average position is now altered with a few passages of play as a genuine #9.

Players are not identical. Let's say - uncontroversially, I think - that while Mane and Salah both can run with the ball and both can run onto the ball, Mane has a slight tendency to run with, while Salah has a slight tendency to run onto. This impacts average position graphics, too. If an attacking move featuring a Mane move on the ball breaks down (tackled, or closed down and has to offload), his average position is affected by the relatively deeper position at which play was halted. If a move ending in a pass for Salah to run onto breaks down (the pass is intercepted) - it doesn't impact his average position at all, because he didn't receive the ball.

Similarly, with Coutinho or any other right footed player in the left-sided #8 role, there is a tendency for the diagonal through ball towards the right between opposition LCB and LB, rather than the 'too straight' ball between RCB and RB. We never play a left footed player in the right-sided #8 role, so there's no opposite tendency (Lallana is two-footed enough to play that ball, but he's only just returning to the side).

Perhaps more subtly, average positions illustrate outcome, not necessarily tactical intention. As mentioned, a failed pass inside the fullback for Salah doesn't register on the map. Equally, a player's form and fitness effects their average position - and I think it's fair to say, Salah's has been better than Mane's. At an extreme, let's imagine both are given identical remits, and let's pretend both have identical tendencies to run with or onto the ball. If one is on fire, he will have more advanced touches - and therefore a higher average position - than one whose bad touch continually loses possession earlier in a phase of play; with a similar effect, the fitter player will make sharper runs for longer in a game, again registering those higher touches picked up in their average position.

Mane and Salah are different players, clearly - but I don't think there's a particular pronounced tactical intention for Salah to be much higher than Mane. As mentioned in an earlier post, at an early stage of the season one might have drawn the opposite conclusion, before Mane's sending off (itself the result of the sort of movement Mane was getting more, earlier in the season) or injury - and before Salah's particularly purple patch in front of goal. Mane has also, perhaps, suffered of late from the absence of Henderson, the most likely player to play the pass in behind the RCB that he thrives on. If no one is playing that pass, those advanced ball touches (which is all that average position counts; football does not record effectively position without the ball) are missing, Mane is dropping deeper to play short passes with Coutinho/Robertson and his average position looks deeper. But those are outcomes, not intentions.


The combination of a few 'tendencies' can have a marked effect on a snapshot illustration such as 'average position', which records only touches on the ball. It doesn't record movement, flow, form, fitness and actions of the opposition, but is affected by all of those things.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 09:56:43 am by redmark »
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #137 on: January 10, 2018, 09:58:46 am »
Is this a joke?

Any article featuring Winter / Murphy / Purslow needs to be avoided unless you have a really good sense of humour. I haven't....so I didn't read it.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #138 on: January 10, 2018, 10:24:48 am »
It's impossible to say definitively what is an outcome vs intentions without being in the meetings and knowing Klopp's mind. For instance, I don't think it's a fluke that we added Salah and moved Mane to LW. I suspect it was a calculated and targeted decision by Klopp to create exactly what we are seeing now. I don't think this is something Klopp organically stumbled upon one day in training, I think it's something he's been working towards for months. How Salah plays now is taking advantage of what Salah has excelled at since he was breaking out at Basil 5-6 years ago, probably since he was 12 years old. Same goes with Mane who was on Klopp's radar from Red Bull Salzberg.  These tendencies surely won't have escaped Klopp and, to my mind, he will have been juggling these sorts of tendencies to intentionally create the sort of outcome we are seeing.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #139 on: January 10, 2018, 10:35:58 am »
It's impossible to say definitively what is an outcome vs intentions without being in the meetings and knowing Klopp's mind. For instance, I don't think it's a fluke that we added Salah and moved Mane to LW. I suspect it was a calculated and targeted decision by Klopp to create exactly what we are seeing now. I don't think this is something Klopp organically stumbled upon one day in training, I think it's something he's been working towards for months. How Salah plays now is taking advantage of what Salah has excelled at since he was breaking out at Basil 5-6 years ago, probably since he was 12 years old. Same goes with Mane who was on Klopp's radar from Red Bull Salzberg.  These tendencies surely won't have escaped Klopp and, to my mind, he will have been juggling these sorts of tendencies to intentionally create the sort of outcome we are seeing.



You've stretched the point I was making too far, though. Of course Klopp is aware of the tendencies of the players, but it would clearly be wrong to think that Klopp intended Mane to get sent off against City, to get injured in October, to be a little out of sorts on his return, or for Henderson to be injured (and Lallana, for half the season, and Clyne) for us to lack the players to pick out runs Mane could (and did) make behind the defence from the left. There are many variables in the way a team performs, a number of which - apart from the tendencies of two individual players - have resulted in a recent emphasis of the Salah flank over the Mane flank that is not necessarily intended to the degree we have seen.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #140 on: January 10, 2018, 10:44:01 am »
You've stretched the point I was making too far, though. Of course Klopp is aware of the tendencies of the players, but it would clearly be wrong to think that Klopp intended Mane to get sent off against City, to get injured in October, to be a little out of sorts on his return, or for Henderson to be injured (and Lallana, for half the season, and Clyne) for us to lack the players to pick out runs Mane could (and did) make behind the defence from the left. There are many variables in the way a team performs, a number of which - apart from the tendencies of two individual players - have resulted in a recent emphasis of the Salah flank over the Mane flank that is not necessarily intended to the degree we have seen.

You can't honestly say that when Salah does exactly what he's done for a decade on the right, and that Mane switches back to the left and does what he's always done there.....that it's some sort of co-incidence created by these hiccups.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 10:46:11 am by DanA »
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #141 on: January 10, 2018, 10:47:00 am »

The combination of a few 'tendencies' can have a marked effect on a snapshot illustration such as 'average position', which records only touches on the ball. It doesn't record movement, flow, form, fitness and actions of the opposition, but is affected by all of those things.


This is a valuable, insightful comment. And so are your replies to the OP! Thanks!

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #142 on: January 10, 2018, 10:47:01 am »

I just see those things as roadblocks that have stopped Klopp from realizing what he had every intention of doing. Which is creating the emphasis we are currently seeing.

I don't think Klopp has intentionally made Mane less effective.

Before your edit.

You can't honestly say that when Salah does exactly what he's done for a decade on the right, and that Mane switches back to the left and does what he's always done there.....that it's some sort of co-incidence created by these hiccups.

I've not said anything of the sort, so I'm not sure you're getting what I am in fact saying.

To put it briefly: I think Salah and Mane's tendencies have been exaggerated by other factors to lead to a more lopsided appearance to our attack than is actually intended. That isn't a criticism, which you seem to be thinking. Once those other factors (Mane's form and fitness, the return of Lallana and Henderson, etc) are addressed, I would expect Mane to become more effective, higher up the pitch, and for the lopsidedness to lessen (not disappear entirely).
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 10:51:47 am by redmark »
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #143 on: January 10, 2018, 10:55:03 am »
I don't think Klopp has intentionally made Mane less effective.

Before your edit.

No, those are roadblocks. There's been some hiccups, teething problems or speed bumps along the way.....whatever you want to call them. But the overarching plan I think has always been to see Mane carry the ball more and Salah run on to the ball as more of a no.9. It's been their style since they were kids. 
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #144 on: January 10, 2018, 10:57:05 am »
No, those are roadblocks. There's been some hiccups, teething problems or speed bumps along the way.....whatever you want to call them. But the overarching plan I think has always been to see Mane carry the ball more and Salah run on to the ball as more of a no.9. It's been their style since they were kids. 

I agree (I actually already said they had those tendencies), but you're arguing a point I didn't make.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #145 on: January 10, 2018, 10:58:39 am »
I don't think Klopp has intentionally made Mane less effective.

Before your edit.

I've not said anything of the sort, so I'm not sure you're getting what I am in fact saying.

To put it briefly: I think Salah and Mane's tendencies have been exaggerated by other factors to lead to a more lopsided appearance to our attack than is actually intended. That isn't a criticism, which you seem to be thinking. Once those other factors (Mane's form and fitness, the return of Lallana and Henderson, etc) are addressed, I would expect Mane to become more effective, higher up the pitch, and for the lopsidedness to lessen (not disappear entirely).


No I understand, I just disagree.  I'm saying I expect those tendencies to continue. Maybe Mane gets a bit more luck and the side sets up in his favour for him to improve his goal output but I still expect it to be lopsided because that's how the games of Mane and Salah have developed over decades. It does not change unless you force it, and IMO Klopp tactically won't do that without good reason.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #146 on: January 10, 2018, 11:24:54 am »
Thanks for continuing the discussion, great stuff. That’s interesting about the average positions, I had always thought these were literally where they were during the match, rather than where they were when involved in the play or touching the ball?  I’m not sure it is like that in other sports.

I had also assumed, which I think is what you’re disagreeing about, that tactically Salah is playing higher up and closer to Bobby, and making the shape lopsided, with Coutinho and Mane high, but not as high on the left.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #147 on: January 10, 2018, 12:23:29 pm »
No I understand, I just disagree.  I'm saying I expect those tendencies to continue. Maybe Mane gets a bit more luck and the side sets up in his favour for him to improve his goal output but I still expect it to be lopsided because that's how the games of Mane and Salah have developed over decades. It does not change unless you force it, and IMO Klopp tactically won't do that without good reason.
You're disagreeing with a misinterpretation of the point I'm making, but that's fine :).
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #148 on: January 10, 2018, 12:29:04 pm »
Thanks for continuing the discussion, great stuff. That’s interesting about the average positions, I had always thought these were literally where they were during the match, rather than where they were when involved in the play or touching the ball?  I’m not sure it is like that in other sports.

I had also assumed, which I think is what you’re disagreeing about, that tactically Salah is playing higher up and closer to Bobby, and making the shape lopsided, with Coutinho and Mane high, but not as high on the left.
Earlier in the season I got involved with some tracking data analysis that a couple of others on the site use for more detailed analytical posts; there is some data recorded about 'runs off the ball' of players near the ball in specific passages of play, or data about how far/fast all players move throughout a game, but general movement data with respect to position on the field is not captured. Average position is based on touches, because those are the only moments where a player's physical coordinates are consistently captured.

There are other data sources used privately by teams that seem to be slowly extending to capture all movement data, but you're not seeing those in the average position images or heatmaps available on the internet.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #149 on: January 10, 2018, 02:17:55 pm »
Is this a joke?

Not at all unfortunately. For the less educated like myself, what comments of his was so bad? I found myself really agreeing with what he was saying.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #150 on: January 10, 2018, 02:45:25 pm »
Not at all unfortunately. For the less educated like myself, what comments of his was so bad? I found myself really agreeing with what he was saying.

It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #151 on: January 10, 2018, 03:03:35 pm »
Not at all unfortunately. For the less educated like myself, what comments of his was so bad? I found myself really agreeing with what he was saying.

Do some research on Purslow and the cancer that he is. Its an absolute shame that you as a Liverpool supporter are totally clueless in regards to that

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #152 on: January 10, 2018, 04:20:53 pm »
Great post PoP and a great reply from redmark. We're clearly pressing less this season than we have last season and below is just another article proving that. I would say that Klopp's continually evolving his system of play. The template remains the same, but after the issues we've had with breaking down busses, it would seem we deliberately allow the opposition to come forward more:

"The Reds have already scored seven goals from what Opta define as ‘fast breaks’, the most in the Premier League and the same amount as Chelsea, who scored the most on their way to the title, managed in the entirety of last season. The season before, when Leicester City won the league, the Foxes recorded the most with six."


It's worth bearing in mind, of course, that those pace-setting 7 goals are out of a total of 50 - that is, the pure counter attack still contributes a small minority of our goals (even allowing for a few more to be the result of set pieces won on a counter attack). We still have to be able to play with the ball, to probe and create chances against a packed defence - something which we seem to be slowly improving on, over recent seasons.

I agree with the article in part - we are, at times, reducing the high press and letting more opposition players get forward before trying to win the ball back. But we're still capable (and this, perhaps, is Klopp's work coming to fruition as the players get better at recognising the pattern of a game and adjusting tempo) of the more aggressive press when we're on top and sense we could score a quick 2nd, 3rd, 4th goal if we respond correctly. But there's a touch of the more orthodox, too - we're happy to back off into a solid 451 shape and let the opposition play in front of it for short periods, to recuperate or to reduce the tempo of a game - before increasing it, as a burst of pace can carry more impact if it's from a lull in play.

An implication that we're a counter-attacking side is misleading though, I think. We're extremely effective on the counter, but it's still a relatively minor means of attack overall.
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #153 on: January 10, 2018, 04:41:46 pm »
An implication that we're a counter-attacking side is misleading though, I think. We're extremely effective on the counter, but it's still a relatively minor means of attack overall.

Perhaps it's an indication that our attacking tactics are balanced, rather than symmetrical...
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #154 on: January 10, 2018, 06:44:09 pm »
Earlier in the season I got involved with some tracking data analysis that a couple of others on the site use for more detailed analytical posts; there is some data recorded about 'runs off the ball' of players near the ball in specific passages of play, or data about how far/fast all players move throughout a game, but general movement data with respect to position on the field is not captured. Average position is based on touches, because those are the only moments where a player's physical coordinates are consistently captured.

There are other data sources used privately by teams that seem to be slowly extending to capture all movement data, but you're not seeing those in the average position images or heatmaps available on the internet.



Won’t be long before the players are wearing GPS trackers ( if they’re not already - with data going to the club)  with that info provided to Sky or opta and then made public. In Australia, AFL players have a little pocket in their jumpers high up on their backs with the gps inside. Actually, it probably won’t be long before the players have a micro-chip under their skin to track all sorts of info, including location (at all times!).
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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #155 on: January 10, 2018, 07:19:53 pm »
It's worth bearing in mind, of course, that those pace-setting 7 goals are out of a total of 50 - that is, the pure counter attack still contributes a small minority of our goals (even allowing for a few more to be the result of set pieces won on a counter attack). We still have to be able to play with the ball, to probe and create chances against a packed defence - something which we seem to be slowly improving on, over recent seasons.

I agree with the article in part - we are, at times, reducing the high press and letting more opposition players get forward before trying to win the ball back. But we're still capable (and this, perhaps, is Klopp's work coming to fruition as the players get better at recognising the pattern of a game and adjusting tempo) of the more aggressive press when we're on top and sense we could score a quick 2nd, 3rd, 4th goal if we respond correctly. But there's a touch of the more orthodox, too - we're happy to back off into a solid 451 shape and let the opposition play in front of it for short periods, to recuperate or to reduce the tempo of a game - before increasing it, as a burst of pace can carry more impact if it's from a lull in play.

An implication that we're a counter-attacking side is misleading though, I think. We're extremely effective on the counter, but it's still a relatively minor means of attack overall.

I think it depend on how you define "counter-attack". If we use the Opta definition, which seems to be "attacks that originate in the defensive half", then we don't "counter-attack" a lot. But really, a counter-attack is essentially countering direct to goal from where you win the ball, as opposed to looking to build play using width and lateral movement. So in the strict tactical sense, it would be interesting to see where we regain the ball and how many passes we play before we get a shot on goal, because I would contend in that case that we play few passes, they are usually vertical, and we get a shot off in less than 3 passes. And because we win the ball more in the opposition half than in our own half, they probably don't count as "fast-break" or "counter-attacks" by Opta definitions. But the tactical choice is definitely to go straight to goal, regardless of where we win the ball.
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Offline redmark

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #156 on: January 10, 2018, 08:24:29 pm »
I think it depend on how you define "counter-attack". If we use the Opta definition, which seems to be "attacks that originate in the defensive half", then we don't "counter-attack" a lot. But really, a counter-attack is essentially countering direct to goal from where you win the ball, as opposed to looking to build play using width and lateral movement. So in the strict tactical sense, it would be interesting to see where we regain the ball and how many passes we play before we get a shot on goal, because I would contend in that case that we play few passes, they are usually vertical, and we get a shot off in less than 3 passes. And because we win the ball more in the opposition half than in our own half, they probably don't count as "fast-break" or "counter-attacks" by Opta definitions. But the tactical choice is definitely to go straight to goal, regardless of where we win the ball.
Certainly there's a aim to attack directly when (if) we win the ball back, and the higher you win it, the more direct that attack can/should be. If Firming robs a CB 30 yards out, we don't want to go back to the keeper.

But what I was really referring to are those spells where we start possession from a goal kick, or picking up an opposition clearance deep in our own half. I think in those circumstances we've matured as a side, in that we *don't* assume the Kloppite way is an immediate vertical pass and direct attack, if the opposition is well set in shape. We're comfortable in playing the ball out from the back with much more patience than we might in the past. We even see, quite frequently, that we're prepared to retreat back to the defenders from advanced positions against a well set defence, if no better opportunity presents itself.

I think we're a better, more rounded team than the "counter attacking" tag allows for.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #157 on: January 10, 2018, 08:35:52 pm »
Certainly there's a aim to attack directly when (if) we win the ball back, and the higher you win it, the more direct that attack can/should be. If Firming robs a CB 30 yards out, we don't want to go back to the keeper.

But what I was really referring to are those spells where we start possession from a goal kick, or picking up an opposition clearance deep in our own half. I think in those circumstances we've matured as a side, in that we *don't* assume the Kloppite way is an immediate vertical pass and direct attack, if the opposition is well set in shape. We're comfortable in playing the ball out from the back with much more patience than we might in the past. We even see, quite frequently, that we're prepared to retreat back to the defenders from advanced positions against a well set defence, if no better opportunity presents itself.

I think we're a better, more rounded team than the "counter attacking" tag allows for.


You're right about the tag. It's like we're seeking to be a "balanced" team. Like Rafa always sought. Which is why I like Klopp. But also why I liked Rodgers, because he clearly preferred to have a team that was unbalanced in favour of the attack - which is a brave choice, as most managers who seek an "unbalanced" strategy usually do so in favour of the defence.

However, to add to that - a balanced strategy usually has the key components outlined above - a defender who can bring the ball out, one who can sweep, a central mid who controls the space, one who pushes up, an attacking winger, a defensive fullback, and a player who pushes up for depth. It's all in the principles of play. A perfectly balanced attack has Depth, Width, Mobility, Penetration, Creativity, and Speed. We're definitely going in that direction, I think. Most managers sacrifice one to get more of another.

And just to throw some spice into the mix - the first counter-attacking action in football is dribbling ;D We're among the top of the charts for that (Everton are at the very bottom - hot potato football indeed lol)
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Offline ANFIELDGATES

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #158 on: January 10, 2018, 11:39:59 pm »
Fantastic OP and a lot to digest but worth the time,so thanks for that..one question,after signing VVD does Klopp now revert back to the high line full backs or will he keep the shape he has gone with lately?We have conceded far less goals recently after our nightmare defensive showing in the spurs game,and i argued at the time that we concede alot of goals because we had no real defensive cover when both our full backs are high up the pitch thus leaving our two centre halves exposed to the counter attack.

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Re: The Klopp Template - Are we getting closer?
« Reply #159 on: January 11, 2018, 02:21:10 am »
Fantastic OP and a lot to digest but worth the time,so thanks for that..one question,after signing VVD does Klopp now revert back to the high line full backs or will he keep the shape he has gone with lately?We have conceded far less goals recently after our nightmare defensive showing in the spurs game,and i argued at the time that we concede alot of goals because we had no real defensive cover when both our full backs are high up the pitch thus leaving our two centre halves exposed to the counter attack.

I don’t think so. Our attacking record had been pretty good so to me it makes little sense to make us more attacking despite signing VVD.

I think we’ll continue as is though VVD was pretty brilliant. The one chance Everton did get and scored from was a result of an errant pass by Matip. Something I think we need to learn to live with from time to time in a team that plays the ball out of defense.
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