Topic: Liverpool's Midfield

[Sangria]

First I absolutely remember the Mascherano era and while he wasn't Steven Gerrard, to say he didn't do any attacking is selective memory plain and simple, he did often charge forward with the ball getting a couple goals and setting up more of them.

It's about picking the right times to attack and charging forward with the ball is often an effective way to deal with the press.

Secondly we have Lucas who does not attack, do why can't he do it?

Lucas looks Fowler-esque compared with Mascherano.

[Samie]

Given that we play 2 in CM in our 343, how many do you expect Henderson's partner to score? Would you pick Henderson's partner on the basis of goal scoring?

It was just a general thought mate because like you said the way we play you don't expect the two midfielders to be scoring.

But I 'm saying we could do with central midfielder who scores say 10 goals which would take the burden of Sturridge or whoever.  I don't expect Lucas or Allen to score more than 3 between them in 5 seasons.  Can doesn't strike me as a player who'll get goals often either.

[Gnurglan]

Reckon we need a Alonso clone more than a Mascherano type.

Maybe. What I want is the aggressive player. I think we're in more need of that.

Mascherano is underrated. For us, he was often a destroyer, but that's not all he is. He was good at RB and he's played a more polished game for Barca and Argentina.

[Kopenhagen]

Given that we play 2 in CM in our 343, how many do you expect Henderson's partner to score? Would you pick Henderson's partner on the basis of goal scoring?

If we're to continue with this system, we'd need a stopper (Lucas) and a more creative player than Henderson at CM (Pjanic).

Maybe. What I want is the aggressive player. I think we're in more need of that.

Mascherano is underrated. For us, he was often a destroyer, but that's not all he is. He was good at RB and he's played a more polished game for Barca and Argentina.

So Lucas?

[trimore]

Lucas looks Fowler-esque compared with Mascherano.

Really? Maybe not goal-scoring wise but when it came to drive the ball forward, Mascherano was more aggressive than Lucas ever was though neither were particularly aggressive.   

[trimore]

Maybe. What I want is the aggressive player. I think we're in more need of that.

Gerrard was plenty aggressive today

[Gnurglan]

We also need goals from central midfield and on a semi consistent basis.  Hendo will get between 5-8 but the rest forget them.

Not sure we need so many goals from CM. As you say, Henderson can get a few. Let's use that, let's give him more chances to score. Thus, get a solid defensive player behind him. Our goals need to come from Coutinho, Lallana, Markovic, Sterling, Sturridge, Origi,...

[Gnurglan]

Gerrard was plenty aggressive today

Aye, but not so clever.

[Sangria]

If we're to continue with this system, we'd need a stopper (Lucas) and a more creative player than Henderson at CM (Pjanic).

Lucas won't be here and Henderson will be captain.

[trimore]

Aye, but not so clever.

Unfortunately that seems to be a bit of an oxymoron in today's game. You can't both be clever and aggressive in harassing players you are a walking disaster; waiting for a red card or missing a tackle and giving up an odd man rush. Especially with today's strict refs and athletic players that swarm midfielders from all sides.

I was reading the Barcelona forum and despite the clasico win they can't stand Mascherano at DM. I don't think he's a dumb player, but he's too aggressive, he's going to make a mistake and they believe Busquets calm positioning and precise harassing is vital to their defense.

You might disagree but I don't think Busquets is aggressive an player and I hope Emre Can can develop a similar game soon, he has all the tools (Edit: including some tools that Busquets doesn't have like driving runs), we just have to push him in that direction.   

[didi shamone]

Lucas won't be here and Henderson will be captain.

I pray to God you're wrong.  I like Henderson but ld prefer if the opposite to what you predict happened.
Henderson is a 2nd tier type midfielder.  His energy and intermittent moments of class are a joy but he'll never be an undroppable player.

[Kopenhagen]

Lucas won't be here...

I know. Ergo, we need someone in that mould if we're to continue with this formation. Allen is fine as backup.

Henderson will be captain.

And that worries me, because of both his mentality and quality. First name on the team sheet? Not for me. Maybe in the formation I posted above, but not in this one.

[Kopenhagen]

What happens when the other team have the ball? I think this is representative of the problems we sometimes have in midfield.

You don't think that midfield would work? How so?

I don't see it as all that different than what we were playing during the backend of last season, when we played 3 in midfield; that is:

Coutinho - Henderson
Gerrard

...except that Pjanic is actually a midfielder who chips in with goals and assists, and the Alonso-type could offer defensive solidity without hurting us on the ball (and hopefully he'd be relatively mobile). And let's face it, we're never going to see shithouse destroyer as long as Rodgers is at the club.

[Redman0151]

I think it's worth noting that prior to today we'd won every game Henderson had captained

[Giono]

Really surprised that a fit Lucas was not brought on at halftime to win back the midfield. Really surprised that Gerrard was seen as the answer irregardless of the red etc.

[Kopenhagen]

Really surprised that a fit Lucas was not brought on at halftime to win back the midfield. Really surprised that Gerrard was seen as the answer irregardless of the red etc.

His performance against Swansea, most likely.

[please, I have my reasons for it but...]

Reckon we need a Alonso clone more than a Mascherano type.

Good thing all of them are playing at Anfield next weekend, easy to clone them when they're here already.

[Ken-Obi]

Really surprised that a fit Lucas was not brought on at halftime to win back the midfield. Really surprised that Gerrard was seen as the answer irregardless of the red etc.

You're easily surprised it seems.

[Redman0151]

Really surprised that a fit Lucas was not brought on at halftime to win back the midfield. Really surprised that Gerrard was seen as the answer irregardless of the red etc.

I was screaming for Gerrard. Most of our team didn't seem to "get" what was required in this game to come out on top. Without excusing him, I think Gerrard saw this and wanted to make an impression straight away, show the team what they need to do to grab the game by the scruff of the neck, then he went too far

[mrantarctica]

And that worries me, because of both his mentality and quality. First name on the team sheet? Not for me. Maybe in the formation I posted above, but not in this one.

I pray to God you're wrong.  I like Henderson but ld prefer if the opposite to what you predict happened.
Henderson is a 2nd tier type midfielder.  His energy and intermittent moments of class are a joy but he'll never be an undroppable player.

There's no questioning his work rate. I don't think anyone really works harder in the shirt. His discipline is pretty good too. Doesn't pick up a lot of cards and generally stays cool on the field. He's a good role model and generally embodies what a LFC player should be like. From a quality point of view, well he's been scoring goals and generating assists. He does what a semi attack minded midfielder should do. I can't think of many players who've been better this season.

I think people are still stuck in this mould of Henderson is replacing Gerrard and should be able to single handedly dominate games and take them away from teams, as well as our captain being a local lad. It's just very unrealistic. If you discount the penalties that Gerrard took last year, then Hendo has scored more goals. Less assists, but he's made plenty of key passes that have led to chances. His first time pass to Sturridge today which set up Lallana's chance was case in point.

No player is undroppable. If you go through a bad patch of form and there are better options available in the team, then you would expect the manager to pick those until your form is regained. It's no different just because you happen to be captain.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

There's no questioning his work rate. I don't think anyone really works harder in the shirt. His discipline is pretty good too. Doesn't pick up a lot of cards and generally stays cool on the field. He's a good role model and generally embodies what a LFC player should be like. From a quality point of view, well he's been scoring goals and generating assists. He does what a semi attack minded midfielder should do. I can't think of many players who've been better this season.

I think people are still stuck in this mould of Henderson is replacing Gerrard and should be able to single handedly dominate games and take them away from teams, as well as our captain being a local lad. It's just very unrealistic. If you discount the penalties that Gerrard took last year, then Hendo has scored more goals. Less assists, but he's made plenty of key passes that have led to chances. His first time pass to Sturridge today which set up Lallana's chance was case in point.

No player is undroppable. If you go through a bad patch of form and there are better options available in the team, then you would expect the manager to pick those until your form is regained. It's no different just because you happen to be captain.

Good post. Hendo's the perfect soldier, but if you want individual domination, he has his limits. Even if Hendo had the technical quality of pass and vision of Gerrard, I still see Henderson as someone who will put it all at the service of the team, you still end up with a player who views and plays the game differently.

[penga]

Let's not knee jerk here our midfield has been playing quite well this year. We do not need really 2 extra mids but one would be nice but what type? It's a solid midfield group but there is something missing.

On this pining talk about ex midfielders, Alonso's pass accuracy in his time here was only around 80% while Gerrard's was similar in the CAM position but much higher under Rodgers as a CM and deep lying playmaker and Alonso used to hit a lot of long balls but for some reason only Gerrard gets criticised for doing the "hollywood" ball even though the former had less pass accuracy. We don't need an Alonso, Gerrard can do the same things just with the impression he is less level headed, it's all about perception. But we don't particularly "need" Gerrard anymore either and that perhaps proves we don't need an Alonso because an Alonso is physically slower than Gerrard and I'm not sure that suits our system defensively and with our pressing. I would rather the Mascherano type who injects aggression and energy into the team with his off the ball defense but has some creativity and balls to create things, when Alonso left and he was playing with Lucas in our last season under Rafa (the worst), it was always him trying to get on the ball and create something rather than Lucas.

Right now our midfield positions are for me like nagginly or annoyingly just below the level as well as the potential we want. It's a bit of a conundrum because you don't really want to replace any of them (partly because they are still youngish and partly because they are performing well) but to get to the next level you maybe have to find someone better. You get the sense the midfield group can bat above their weight in a lot of games but will never reach a truly brilliant level.

For example Allen has been playing excellently recently but you know he will never physically be able to compete every game against bigger midfielders, and if he doesn't have that then he really has to be contributing more in terms of chance creation and goals/assists. Otherwise he needs a Man city like performance every game. He can help you deal very well with a press most of the time (not this match unfortunately) but I don't think he is providing enough in terms of creativity consistently for his style of play to cause trouble for teams that defend in a low block or park the bus. Similar story with Lucas but he has that physical capability in terms of stength and aerially (not pace) but looks a bit more lethargic than Allen on the ball and someone like Mascherano off the ball but again that is "perception" Lucas actually tackles/intercepts at similar rates to Mascherano so the question is does he put the same amount of harrying pressure on opponents rather than just reading the game extremely well? And can he inject more attacking impetus into the team? I don't think it's enough. Yes these 2 can turn decently and play very nice accurate passes to the likes of Coutinho/Lallana but I would like them just to have a bit more in their locker. If I had to pick between the 2 currently it would still be Lucas.

Henderson is improving which is good, I really like him with how hard he works and growing the balls to create things and shoot and pulling them off with a good success rate these days. But as everyone knows he has that technical deficiency or negative mentality when receiving the ball under pressure which limits him quite a lot in the style of football we want to play and means he probably won't reach the top level with regards to the ideal all rounder midfielder we want. Not the greatest exponent of applying composure in the middle and probing at defences, more of a high temp counter attack player. Again becomes quite limited against low block teams and teams that press him until he has the chance to turn easily or run on to something to create. With Emre Can we shall see, he has more confidence receiving and moving with the ball than Hendo but at this moment does not have anywhere near the same energy and consistency with his passing.

The ideal for me is one player who is geared more towards attacking to contribute a decent number of goals and assists like Hendo but can receive under pressure and dictate the tempo of the game whilst providing good mobility on and off the ball. The other player would be geared more towards defence but still has similar capabilities in attack to the other mid but less pronounced. For example a Pjanic, Nainggolan kind of midfield but in our system *note they are not necessarily in their best moment for Roma.

[rickardinho1]

When were we bullied? We were outplayed in the first 30 minutes - comprehensively. Not sure we were bullied - not sure you ever get bullied in the modern game

We were soooo bullied. Jones on Lallana, Fellaini and Herrera winning every aerial battle, Smalling outmuscling Sturridge, etc... The only tackle we made was Gerrard on Mata (plus the stamp on Herrera).

[rickardinho1]

Good post. Hendo's the perfect soldier, but if you want individual domination, he has his limits. Even if Hendo had the technical quality of pass and vision of Gerrard, I still see Henderson as someone who will put it all at the service of the team, you still end up with a player who views and plays the game differently.

Agree, good posts.

The thing with Hendo is that he's almos designed to fit the Rodgers mould perfectly, where no one player is bigger than the team. That's why he's VC/Capt and that's why he's so important for the team. He embodies all the attributes BR wants in his midfield.

[mrantarctica]

We do lack a bit of depth at CM with Lucas and Allen picking up a lot of injuries, Can untested there and Gerrard leaving. However, I think our weaknesses are in the attacking roles. Between the two wingbacks and 3 attackers (in a 3-4-3) we aren't producing enough quality or creativity in the final third. too frequently, we are relying on Coutinho to drive the team forward or for Sturridge to create something out of nothing.

Our wingbacks have struggled. We're seeing BR trying to shoehorn players into the role so that they can start games e.g. Sterling and Markovic. Whoever starts there should at least do either attacking or defending well. Unfortunately, like Moreno against Utd, sometimes they don't do either very well and it ends up being a major weakness for us. I think Lallana has been pretty disappointing in that AM slot. We spent a lot of money to bring him in and he's had plenty of chances in his favoured position, yet his output for an attacking player has been quite disappointing. Injuries haven't helped obviously but even then I've found him to go disappearing in games and overall not really add anything other than making a few neat passes. Needs to take a few more risks and try and impose his will on the game. He's got such good quality on the ball, but too often its just neat and tidy stuff and not enough penetration. For a senior pro, we need to see more from him really. We don't need another Joe Allen type player higher up the pitch. We need someone who's going to be creative and look to work defenders and opening up defences and finish off chances.

We need to bring in a CM no doubt about it, but we also need to urgently fix our goal scoring and attacking problem. We lack cohesiveness and any structure in the way we break teams down. We don't appear to exploit some very obvious weaknesses. Teams also recognize that they can just pack their defence and park the bus and know that we'll generally struggle to find a way through unless Coutinho does something brilliant. We can't keep relying on the little magician forever.

[jepovic]

Good posts regarding Henderson. For me, he's absolutely good enough to start for LFC even if we were to become title challengers again. He's a good player who had a poor game. Unlike Gerrard in his pomp, he can't lift a whole team game after game. Few players can do that.

We'll need another midfielder, and it's pretty clear that we need a creative force. I'd love to see someone who can carry the ball through midfield like Coutinho, but with the defensive class needed for the central midfield.

One more point: Henderson should work on his aerials. He has the physique to be decent, and he just seems to need practice.

[Fromola]

Really surprised that a fit Lucas was not brought on at halftime to win back the midfield. Really surprised that Gerrard was seen as the answer irregardless of the red etc.

Sentiment or expecting Stevie to come on and be superman cost us because we needed Lucas more than Gerrard after the way the first half panned out. We needed to get a grip in midfield first and then we could have brought Gerrard on if needed.

[Miro]

quote author=Bitter Mug link=topic=311695.msg13719368#msg13719368 date=1427097339]
Sentiment or expecting Stevie to come on and be superman cost us because we needed Lucas more than Gerrard after the way the first half panned out. We needed to get a grip in midfield first and then we could have brought Gerrard on if needed.
[/quote]

It's easy to say that though in hindsight isn't it? I believe the majority of fans and pundits wanted Gerrard on at half time for that extra body in midfield plus his influence and leadership on the game, so not that surprising that Brendan bought Gerrard on as a pose to Lucas who hadn't played competitive football yet since his injury.

[steveeastend]

Good posts regarding Henderson. For me, he's absolutely good enough to start for LFC even if we were to become title challengers again. He's a good player who had a poor game. Unlike Gerrard in his pomp, he can't lift a whole team game after game. Few players can do that.

We'll need another midfielder, and it's pretty clear that we need a creative force. I'd love to see someone who can carry the ball through midfield like Coutinho, but with the defensive class needed for the central midfield.

One more point: Henderson should work on his aerials. He has the physique to be decent, and he just seems to need practice.

I basically agree on Henderson, that he is a good player and all that.

But he is defintitely not good enough as a leader, being the "main" man in the middle of a game. I like him further up the pitch or on the wing, but he cannot be the anchor of our game, he simply isn't talented enough for that which is visible in every big game he has played for us so far.

[Fromola]

It's easy to say that though in hindsight isn't it? I believe the majority of fans and pundits wanted Gerrard on at half time for that extra body in midfield plus his influence and leadership on the game, so not that surprising that Brendan bought Gerrard on as a pose to Lucas who hadn't played competitive football yet since his injury.

True it's easy to say now but we had a numbers problem in midfield and an issue in freeing up and helping out Allen and Henderson. We could have only have really solved that through Lucas. Bringing Gerrard on at that stage smacked of deferring to Gerrard to try and save the game.

[RideTheWalrus]

I basically agree on Henderson, that he is a good player and all that.

But he is defintitely not good enough as a leader, being the "main" man in the middle of a game. I like him further up the pitch or on the wing, but he cannot be the anchor of our game, he simply isn't talented enough for that which is visible in every big game he has played for us so far.

He is shocking out wide.

[steveeastend]

He is shocking out wide.

I think he grew into it, his crosses were pretty good after a couple of games of adjusting to this role. To me, that would be his best position because of his stamina which is vital for defending crosses and offering threat further up the pitch.

[RideTheWalrus]

I think he grew into it, his crosses were pretty good after a couple of games of adjusting to this role. To me, that would be his best position because of his stamina which is vital for defending crosses and offering threat further up the pitch.

Problem then, is who plays in midfield?

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

We need Lucas back and soon. I still hold the view that we need a Lucas type player patrolling the area in front of the defence to allow the team to play the way the manager wants to. Allen has been decent for a good no of games but he doesnt offer us enough in the context of defensive protection or penetrative passing.

Henderson is also not equipped for that role but he is as good as it gets as a box to box runner. I can envisage him as a key part of our team in the medium term in that midfield 'linker' role.

[leivapool]

I think we underestimate how highly Rodgers rates Allen. 

With the lack of genuine rotation in our squad,  if players are playing well and we are winning then it's minimal then no top quality player will stay if they aren't getting decent amounts of game time.   If we play a 2 man midfield,  and Hendo is a give  that leave 3 or 4 players fighting for 1 position.  Get knocked out of the cups early and that's alot of unhappy players.

[Draex]

Fact of the matter is Allen was very poor yesterday - he basically did everything wrong he was doing so right the other weeks.. It was an obvious missmatch v's Sideshow Twat face, but we didn't really help him out.. The early yellow for a nothing foul meant he had to clearly play a more passive game, which really stifled his harrying and pressing.

I was far more disapointed with his passing, he missplaced several in the first half which is completely out of character and he is someone you'd pin your hopes on retaining possession and helping us be calm in the first 30mins when we were struggling. He's a good player, do I think he's the right player? Not really no.

I think we needed Lucas in there, not only is he brilliant in the air he is excellent at getting to second balls. Rodgers has this horrible knack of just playing the same formation, same team irrespective of the opponent - we aren't Barca, our gameplan and 1st team is not so good the rest becomes irrelevant - yesterday would have been Lucas' bread and butter he would have controlled Pubic Hair Boy and stifled Mata.

We need to become smarter, change the team, we are predictable and it came unstuck last season and it's starting to happen again. You can't rest on your laurels in this league, once you get found out you need to change it up.. We didn't and Utd simply executed what Swansea devised.

[robgomm]

Lucas

Henderson-Allen

For me against Arsenal. Or maybe Henderson-Coutinho with Sterling up with Sturridge .

This gives us solid protection with an extra body in midfield, the opportunity to press higher and gets Hendo higher up the pitch.

["21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!]

Lucas

Henderson-Allen

For me against Arsenal. Or maybe Henderson-Coutinho with Sterling up with Sturridge .

This gives us solid protection with an extra body in midfield, the opportunity to press higher and gets Hendo higher up the pitch.

I am a huge fan of playing three genuine central midfielders in a midfield 3 (4-3-3) rather than using an AM as the more attack minded midfielder.  Henderson, Allen and Lucas as a trio in midfield is a very good setup.

[keyo]

At times, I think we're OK in CM. And then I think we need to improve. I reckon we're missing a Mascherano type of player. A physical, quick, aggressive player who can pass the ball.

The concern I have is Allen. I know he's played well recently, but I still see him as our weak link in CM. If we want a defensive player, we play Lucas. If we want an allround player, we pick Henderson. If we want a pure attacking midfielder, we pick Coutinho. Leadership? Assists? Goals? We never turn to Allen first, so for me he's a backup. No need to trade him for another backup, but if we could find a new first pick, I'm all for making the trade. The main priority though, is to get another goalscorer and that's not a CM.

I don't think that Allen is necessarily such a problem, he is backup, good backup.  I tend to think that firing, our midfield can be excellent, and there is development room in all of the players.  however.....there are lots of shouts for clones of Alonso, mascherano, gerrard from 10 years ago, etc, and my concern lies here.  those players had periods when they were criticised, and no one player is ever universally praised for his influence on the team or is irreplaceable....however, each of those players was an automatic pick to an extent, and if the backup was a drop off, that was not the concern as the backup was there for injuries and to provide rotation and was not expected to be of the same standard.

this is not meant to denigrate our midfielders, but I don't any as influential as those players, except in that they are the ones there.....Henderson is an excellent player, and continues to get better, and may be a player we look back on after his career and say he was truly influential and top quality but he is not there yet. lucas is an excellent player, and much as I like him and trust him in the side, he does not bring as much as either mascherano or Alonso, and whilst that is not the only measure I tend to feel what lucas brings is not sufficient to make him part of a midfield that is the envy of the league or one I think we can't improve on, allen is certainly not significant in his presence, and whilst we have great attacking prowess, coutinho, sterling continue to develop and will peak in a few years.

so unless they all peak together - along with can, markovic, Moreno - and soon, then we will carry the risk that the passing of time provides.  failures, injuries, players moving on, other squad improvements, etc.  the reality is we need to constantly improve to continue to compete and that means if we can improve our midfield than we should....but it needs to be players who work for us, AND are quality....not an easy combination t find in a budget!!! 

it is a nagging doubt only for me, and I may well be wrong, but I do think we need an addition next season, someone who can be our main man in midfield now - not in a couple of years, not someone who can contribute if needed, but will contribute regularly and influence on the field as much as Henderson does and more...we talk about leaders all over the pitch, another one in midfield would not go amiss in terms of shaping play, reacting, being the manager's conduit on the pitch much as Alonso was benitez' initially   

[Giono]

Sentiment or expecting Stevie to come on and be superman cost us because we needed Lucas more than Gerrard after the way the first half panned out. We needed to get a grip in midfield first and then we could have brought Gerrard on if needed.

That is it. We needed to gain control. Stevie gives us other things like brilliant long forward passes. But we could get that attacking boost and gain regain control of midfield by inserting Lucas deeper and pushing Henderson and Allen forward to involve them in attacking play more.