Topic: Harry Wilson to get his chance (at Bournemouth!)

[Mutton Geoff]

Because some people appear to think that we should only be signing the mega stars and don't seem to be interested in our Academy at all. I'm not saying it's true of all but there is a bit of a tendency to look down on homegrown players which I think is pretty disappointing. Some comments have been pretty harsh when you consider the lad has been a model young professional who has always given his all. I accept some think he won't make it here, but no reason for him to be looked down on.

Just so right it is Rawk in a nutshell,
 is the lad good enough i dont know , i do know saw him a few times at Derby were he regulary outshone established footballers in a very tough and  physical league, just to add posters are not really a great indicator on who fits in and who will be good for us,  a couple of years ago many didnt want Oxlade as deemed not good enough for Arsenal nevermind us, then in recent times why the hell do we want a guy who is lazy and useless at stoke and finally the best WTF we have signed this WB from bloody Hull must be a waste of money or a squad filler. Hindsights a bitch that comes back and bites some posters on the arse regulary.

 i tend to side with what Klopp wants myself, if he is happy to promote him into this seasons squad then i am happy for the lad if he sells him i hope he gets a decent club coming in for him.

 i trust Klopp's judgment above all else.,

You would be a little mad not to!

[PoetryInMotion]

‘They’ haven’t though

‘They’ have seen him play a full season at a relatively high level in the Championship, with plenty of opportunity to see him live or in extended highlights, and made an informed decision that they don’t believe his all round game is good enough for us. And he’s not a kid in football terms, he’s 22.

It’s all a little odd, like Jack says. Why on earth wouldn’t a Liverpool fan want a youngster to succeed here? I’m excited about Brewster, about Jones, about Woodburn (still), about Hoever, about Glatzel. Being excited about our youngsters doesn’t mean we all just have to blindly rate them all highly and think they all deserve a chance.

There’s a number of pretty ridiculous accusations in this thread around not valuing the academy, obviously not watching football if you don’t rate Wilson, only being interested in megastars etc. I rate Wilson the same as Kent or Ojo. Good youngsters who have had good loan spells but have got to a point now where they’re unlikely to be of the required standard for us. But we can make some good money on them by either selling this summer or giving a loan spell at a higher level and selling next summer.

The list of homegrown youngsters who make a career at this club is tiny and full of superstars because that’s essentially what you need to be

You lost me there. Sorry, mate. Makes absolutely no sense to put Ojo in the same bracket as Wilson. Continuously successful loans = not even a single successful loan? You have to be lying about watching these two players to put them together.

Assessing him play in two different roles for Lampard's tactics (he still managed to do well overall) for a poor side and then keep repeating the same negativity with confirmation bias is making an 'informed' decision. Really? So, what does that make other Liverpool fans who have also watched him enough, but know enough to see that they could be right/wrong about a player, especially when assessing a player playing with sub-standard team-mates for the most part and a rookie manager who is just on the way to even finding out more on his own tactics. He has still done well.

And Wilson has done a lot more than every other youngster you have mentioned in that post, irrespective of age. There's no guarantee that any of them are going to do even what Wilson has done till they get to 22, yet you're excited about those players. I'm not saying you can't be excited about those youngsters, as I'm too, but it makes no sense to dismiss Wilson's chances so much and then name a list of players who have a long way to prove at the level Wilson has done.

The list of homegrown players who have made it here is tiny, but it's not nil, and should never be nil. That alone makes it logical to give him a chance. And giving someone a chance doesn't equate to making him an important player right away.

[Coolie High]

Wilson is on a complete different level to Ojo and Kent...

[1892tillforever]

If Klopp is actually willing to give him a chance, then he must see something. One thing is for sure, if he isn't up to standard, we'll know soon enough because he won't get many games. As far as his metrics are concerned, 15 league goals from 40 games in the Championship is pretty good no? For reference, Harry Kane managed 14 in 56 lower league appearances. His last Championship loan was a 2 in 13 for Leicester City. Now he was 19, three years younger than Wilson, but played just 10 league games for Spurs in the Premier League in 2013/14, and he was 20 (just two months shy of 21) by the end of the season.

His breakout season was 14/15 when he was just a couple of months shy of 22. The point is, you can't write off (or hype up) players based on what they did in lower leagues are relatively young ages. There also seems to be a belief that if a player isn't amazing by the age of 21, that he will never be any good. Some mature later than others, some are just at shit clubs and only step up at the right club.

[Sheer Magnetism]

‘They’ haven’t though

‘They’ have seen him play a full season at a relatively high level in the Championship, with plenty of opportunity to see him live or in extended highlights, and made an informed decision that they don’t believe his all round game is good enough for us. And he’s not a kid in football terms, he’s 22.

It’s all a little odd, like Jack says. Why on earth wouldn’t a Liverpool fan want a youngster to succeed here? I’m excited about Brewster, about Jones, about Woodburn (still), about Hoever, about Glatzel. Being excited about our youngsters doesn’t mean we all just have to blindly rate them all highly and think they all deserve a chance.

There’s a number of pretty ridiculous accusations in this thread around not valuing the academy, obviously not watching football if you don’t rate Wilson, only being interested in megastars etc. I rate Wilson the same as Kent or Ojo. Good youngsters who have had good loan spells but have got to a point now where they’re unlikely to be of the required standard for us. But we can make some good money on them by either selling this summer or giving a loan spell at a higher level and selling next summer.

The list of homegrown youngsters who make a career at this club is tiny and full of superstars because that’s essentially what you need to be.

I think this is really the kind of attitude people are talking about. Ojo has done nothing in first team football. Kent has had two good seasons at League One (or equivalent). You can't compare them, Wilson was better than both at U23 level, he pretty much singlehandedly took Hull from the relegation spots to mistake last year and was scoring better than one in three from midfield this season. He also raised his game every time he played a Premier League team, and scored some absolute worldies.

And he's younger than Lallana was when he came to the top division. But still, a lot of people are falling over themselves to accentuate the negative and ignore his potential.

[El Lobo]

You lost me there. Sorry, mate. Makes absolutely no sense to put Ojo in the same bracket as Wilson. Continuously successful loans = not even a single successful loan? You have to be lying about watching these two players to put them together.

Assessing him play in two different roles for Lampard's tactics (he still managed to do well overall) for a poor side and then keep repeating the same negativity with confirmation bias is making an 'informed' decision. Really? So, what does that make other Liverpool fans who have also watched him enough, but know enough to see that they could be right/wrong about a player, especially when assessing a player playing with sub-standard team-mates for the most part and a rookie manager who is just on the way to even finding out more on his own tactics. He has still done well.

And Wilson has done a lot more than every other youngster you have mentioned in that post, irrespective of age. There's no guarantee that any of them are going to do even what Wilson has done till they get to 22, yet you're excited about those players. I'm not saying you can't be excited about those youngsters, as I'm too, but it makes no sense to dismiss Wilson's chances so much and then name a list of players who have a long way to prove at the level Wilson has done.

The list of homegrown players who have made it here is tiny, but it's not nil, and should never be nil. That alone makes it logical to give him a chance. And giving someone a chance doesn't equate to making him an important player right away.

‘Good youngsters who have had good loan spells but have got to a point now where they’re unlikely to be of the required standard for us.’

And sorry, but they all have to varying degrees. Ojo did well at Fulham, Kent has had a few good ones. And in fairness Ojo has actually played at a higher level than the other two, for us. But sure, Wilson is probably a little better than Kent or Ojo. But in my opinion, still not of the required standard to make it here. And we’ll see. No ones going to be disappointed if he is.

The other youngsters are 18/19 year olds. As a Liverpool fan I can remember homegrown 18/19 year olds breaking through and becoming big players for this club. I can’t remember a 22 year old doing so. He’s been here for longer than the manager and yet is continually loaned out whilst others have got multiple opportunities. After such a high profile season I think the manager is duty bound to have a look at him during pre season....and it then seems overwhelmingly obvious that he’ll be sold or loaned out.

As for performing well for a poor side....I can’t even work that one out They were near the top all season and got to the play off final. Their young loanees did notoriously well for them. I think the lad from Chelsea won their player of the season award? The youngsters there would actually very much appear to be at the same level as Wilson, or brutally actually a little higher.

[Gnurglan]

The likes of Wilson, Woodburn and Brewster should be given a chance. I don't know much about them, but they seem to be the next in turn. When we have players at that step, they need to be given a chance. Then it's up to them and a bit of luck if they make the step or not. Generally I think our young players do well when given a chance. We have no reason to fear them being in smaller squad roles. They'll cope.

Look at the likes of Ibe, Solanke and TAA to name three young players. PL players. The difference between them is that while TAA has shown he can play week in, week out for a club challenging for the League title, the others couldn't do that. But all could play a role for us. I'm sure Wilson could do the same. They key to success for the club is that we give the smaller squad roles to Wilson & Co and not to more experienced players who basically delivers the same output.

[El Lobo]

I think this is really the kind of attitude people are talking about. Ojo has done nothing in first team football. Kent has had two good seasons at League One (or equivalent). You can't compare them, Wilson was better than both at U23 level, he pretty much singlehandedly took Hull from the relegation spots to mistake last year and was scoring better than one in three from midfield this season. He also raised his game every time he played a Premier League team, and scored some absolute worldies.

And he's younger than Lallana was when he came to the top division. But still, a lot of people are falling over themselves to accentuate the negative and ignore his potential.

So how is you playing down Ojo and Kent any different....?

[PoetryInMotion]

‘Good youngsters who have had good loan spells but have got to a point now where they’re unlikely to be of the required standard for us.’

And sorry, but they all have to varying degrees. Ojo did well at Fulham, Kent has had a few good ones. And in fairness Ojo has actually played at a higher level than the other two, for us. But sure, Wilson is probably a little better than Kent or Ojo. But in my opinion, still not of the required standard to make it here. And we’ll see. No ones going to be disappointed if he is.

The other youngsters are 18/19 year olds. As a Liverpool fan I can remember homegrown 18/19 year olds breaking through and becoming big players for this club. I can’t remember a 22 year old doing so. He’s been here for longer than the manager and yet is continually loaned out whilst others have got multiple opportunities. After such a high profile season I think the manager is duty bound to have a look at him during pre season....and it then seems overwhelmingly obvious that he’ll be sold or loaned out.

As for performing well for a poor side....I can’t even work that one out They were near the top all season and got to the play off final. Their young loanees did notoriously well for them. I think the lad from Chelsea won their player of the season award? The youngsters there would actually very much appear to be at the same level as Wilson, or brutally actually a little higher.

It's simple enough - you haven't really watched Derby, have you? You're just going by some 'stats' you saw, Championship Table and a few awards, a few opinions and then bam. They were not near top all season, they were at genuine risk of finishing below the playoff spot towards the end, a couple of results went their way for them to get there in the end.

I've watched them over the season quite a bit, and tactically they were naïve in most games. They only narrowly made the play-offs (last play-off spot) and did not have a big lead over other set of sides just below them. They had plenty of issues, but came up good in important moments. They were mentally stronger than they were skillfully or tactically strong. And even quite a few of those crucial moments for crucial wins came from Harry, so you could say he was one of the reasons why they made it to play-offs. I wouldn't say outright reason, no single player is, but he was an integral part there.

One of the biggest reasons why Wilson couldn't be at his high level throughout the season was because halfway through the season he was asked to play in a position that he had no idea before about, so for a few months, Wilson was being experimented with a different position, which he was learning on the stage. Mount or Tomori had no such challenges. It also shows Wilson's commitment to the team he plays for, by sacrificing his best position & his performances for the overall shape of the team. Either you didn't know this until it was pointed earlier in this thread, or you keep willingly ignoring this fact for some reason.

Mason Mount is a genuine talent, along with Mount & Tomori, Wilson was among the biggest reasons why Derby achieved what they did. Any one of the 3 could've won player of the season. While Chelsea are really excited about Mount, here we are discounting Wilson.

Kent and Ojo have nowhere near been successful as Wilson in their loans. While was thriving at Hull, Kent was a nobody at Freiberg. Ojo has not had a single successful loan so far, certainly nothing near Wilson's level. Even bringing on the simplest stats and looking at their appearances/scoring rate over all the three players' careers and you will know who has done what. Kent's last season was a success and even he was playing in a league whose level is below where Wilson's been a success for 1 and 1/2 years now. I would like them to make it here as well, and whether any of the three or none of three make it here are not, you're talking bollocks if you say they've been at the same level so far.

[PoetryInMotion]

So how is you playing down Ojo and Kent any different....?

He isn't playing down them though, is he? He is just pointing out how their loans went.

But you're completely turning consistently successful loan spells from Wilson and projecting them as the same level as others (act of playing down), while in truth, no other youth player/youngster of ours have achieved that.

[Sheer Magnetism]

So how is you playing down Ojo and Kent any different....?

Who was playing them down? I was simply pointing out Wilson has achieved more at a higher level so grouping then together was silly. It would be like saying Wilson should immediately go ahead of Shaq in the pecking order. He has to prove himself at that level, but he's shown enough to indicate he can take that step up.

[JackWard33]

Great attitude about our youth players! And a fantastic message to any young players looking to come through   

You could've said the same about Trent Alexander-Arnold 2-3 years ago comparing him with Mbappe.

Not sure how I could have made it clearer that was a ‘funny’ (?!) post ... did it need a different font or something ?!

[El Lobo]

Snip

There’s honestly no need to get personal mate, I’ve seen enough to form an opinion. You’ve seen a bit more? Happy days, if you say he'll be a success here then good for you. I don’t think he will. I don’t think any of them will, but I do think we’ve used the loan system smartly enough that we’ll end up banking £30 million plus for the three of them which we can spend on higher calibre players whilst also bringing through the rare gem.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

I don't really get the age thing i.e. lumping Wilson in with Ojo and Kent because they're all 22 but being excited about Jones and Woodburn because they're 18/19. I can't say Jones or Woodburn remotely excite me like Brewster does.

Age is just a number as they say and while it can be an indicator of talent and potential, it has fooled many coaches in the past too with players either having a misleading hot streak at a young age or being a late bloomer. Much better off basing on evidence of talent and that would lead me to conclude that Wilson is a much better player than Ojo and Kent and probably Jones and Woodburn too but obviously there is less evidence for the latter two.

I actually think Kent is better than he gets given credit for on here, he's a real live-wire and will go on to have a good career at probably an upper Championship level, but Wilson's all-round game is miles beyond him and Ojo. He's a Premier League player for sure, it's just whether he can make it at the elite level, which is very tough for any player, especially one lacking genuine speed in wide areas.

[harryc]

Good player but not sure if he is good enough for LFC as a elite player.

[HelterSkelter]

Good player but not sure if he is good enough for LFC as a elite player.

I would say all things considered that's fair point of view, I'm just wondering about the Klopp effect that seems to bring out a bounce out of most players we buy. Almost all our signings, plus a lot of the lads who were already here, seem to have added an extra dimension to their game. It seems that with the right attitude and a good skillset, our coaches can work wonders. They are the best in the world imo, and our squad is proof of that.
I just have a feeling that he has the tools to kick on a level. Lets face it, has been dealing with championship level coaches for a fair bit now and has still shone.

[Yorkykopite]

Why would it piss off some of our fans if he stays? 

It's obvious. If a fan thought that Harry Wilson was worse than Joe Lolley then it would make sense to be a bit pissed off if Wilson stayed. In a world where squad numbers could reach infinity and where salaries didn't count I suppose it wouldn't matter. But there is a limit to the size of the squad and the club does pay its players salaries. 

[PoetryInMotion]

There’s honestly no need to get personal mate, I’ve seen enough to form an opinion. You’ve seen a bit more? Happy days, if you say he'll be a success here then good for you. I don’t think he will. I don’t think any of them will, but I do think we’ve used the loan system smartly enough that we’ll end up banking £30 million plus for the three of them which we can spend on higher calibre players whilst also bringing through the rare gem.

Come on, there's nothing personal there, mate. Most of my post is an explanation of why some of your opinions are not substantiated is all. We might be using the loan system well, but that doesn't mean we're planning the same for all our youth players - you're going to be loaned and you're going to be sold later. That is just being narrow and not being open to possibilities. Every single player will be assessed on their own situation. That's how it should be.

As Klopp implied, development is as important as transfers. You give up on development of what we have, you end up like Man United unable to make their players play better and then throwing money at every problem in different directions. The higher caliber of player you are talking about - maybe he also was only a promising youngster at a different club sometime back, but he went through a good development phase to become attractive for us when he has aged. Disclaimer: Not a comparison, but just an example/analogy - Mane was playing in Austria when he turned 22. He only earned a move to a mid-table PL team. Did that mean he was going to be mid-table level for the rest of his career? Why can't we give that development to some of our youngsters, even few of them, and then spend for what is really needed instead of closing the door on every youngster and setting a really bad example?

[El Lobo]

It's obvious. If a fan thought that Harry Wilson was worse than Joe Lolley then it would make sense to be a bit pissed off if Wilson stayed. In a world where squad numbers could reach infinity and where salaries didn't count I suppose it wouldn't matter. But there is a limit to the size of the squad and the club does pay its players salaries. 

 

I’m guessing you’re a bit bored as posting in your favoured thread isn’t a great idea right now....

In an ideal world we wouldn’t sign anyone we’d just use the Academy. My favourite players for this club are definitely Fowler, probably Gerrard, love Trent. I love it when we bring youngsters through, I just don’t particularly think this youngster is good enough for us. Worse than Joe Lolley...? Nah, but if we’re using last season then it’s only fair for balance to talk about other attacking midfielders who also had good seasons no?

[clinical]

If someone offers over £20m I think we should sell. He's a highlight player. Watch him for the full 90 minutes he goes missing far too much.

[Yorkykopite]

If someone offers over £20m I think we should sell. He's a highlight player. Watch him for the full 90 minutes he goes missing far too much.

Let's hope the potential buyers have only seen the highlights package!

[Coolie High]

This whole highlights players thing is such a silly cliche, and it’s funny because opposition fans used to label the same accusations at Gerrard at times(rubbish I know), even for one second let’s assume what people are saying is true, what’s the problem with being a highlights or moments player anyways? If that means a player who does litttle but scores and assists, as well as presses and hardly loses the ball, then I’ll take that, our champions league tie at Nou camp was nearly done based on ‘highlights’ and moments by the greatest player of all time, if we’ve got a player on the bench who can come on at the 80th minute and stick on a free kick from 40 yards to win us the game who’s really going to complain?

[Coolie High]

He averages as much passes per game as Salah, so what do people mean by go missing? Maybe the general context is Derby struggle to get him the ball in dangerous positions where he can be more impactful?

[LallanaInPyjamas]

If someone offers over £20m I think we should sell. He's a highlight player. Watch him for the full 90 minutes he goes missing far too much.

What is this view based on? I don't agree with it from what I've seen. In fact I think there's an argument that - like Shaqiri - he might get himself a little *too* involved in matches to be an effective front three player for us. In the play-off final, for example, you could see him really trying to get his side back into the game in the second half. Once he was moved centrally he played some lovely through balls into the left-winger's path. But there were also other passes and crosses which, unfortunately, did not come off for him. But involved he certainly was.

He's got a lovely weight of pass and great vision to go alongside it, he gets stuck in by making tackles and fouls, he can take a player on and as such he was fouled more than anyone else in the Championship last season besides Jack Grealish. There's more to his game than free-kicks and long shots, which are great assets for any attacker anyway, and skills which are bizarrely being used against him from people who I'm not convinced have really watched him play to be perfectly honest.

[newterp]

I think we cab get this thread to 10 pages before the season starts.

[El Lobo]

I think we cab get this thread to 10 pages before the season starts.

When he gets sold the week before it’ll go MENTAL!

[RedForeverTT]

Hope he gets his chance but it looks like unless he stepped up tremendously, it is going to be difficult displacing one of Salah, Mane, Firmino and even Origi who came of the back of scoring 3 Champions League goal in 2 games.

To be fair, even seasoned professionals the likes of Sane, Martial and Aubameyang would have problems getting into our frontline.

[exiledintheUSA]

I think we cab get this thread to 10 pages before the season starts.

He'll score 5 in pre-season and this place will be on fire.

[Fernando_Torres_Was_Good]

Looks like he has a lot of talent, and can score some absolute beauties. Still young too, with lots of space to develop. No idea why anyone would want to sell him - especially if Klopp doesn't.

Who really thought at the beginning of last season that Origi would make any significant contributions to our team? Sometimes squad players who are underrated can provide invaluable contributions, and at his age, he definitely deserves a shot to contribute. We are literally competing for like 7 trophies this year, are we not? He would get game time somewhere. Let's see how hungry he is, and what he's capable of with Klopp's guidance.

[Ghost Town]

Looked a bit like Torres when he did that five times thing to the Mancs.

As long as he has at least one finger on the other hand, I'm in!

[Ghost Town]

There’s honestly no need to get personal mate,

Pah ha ha ha ha 

Top bantz! 

[rebel23]

Has scored one goal so far in pre-season

[Fordy]

Has scored one goal so far in pre-season

And your point is?

[tubby]

Only saw the goal, very tidy finish as you'd expect from him, but how did he get on otherwise?

[Fordy]

Only saw the goal, very tidy finish as you'd expect from him, but how did he get on otherwise?

Had a good game. One of the stand outs of the match.

[rebel23]

And your point is?

Sorry.  I just read it on the official site. I've not been following us in preseason -- going to catcb up later!

[Xanderzone]

I think the logical next step would be a loan to a Prem side and see how he does there.

Someone like Southampton or Norwich.

[Fordy]

I think the logical next step would be a loan to a Prem side and see how he does there.

Someone like Southampton or Norwich.

I think with all the games we have next season, the logical step would be to keep him here.

[whtwht]

I think with all the games we have next season, the logical step would be to keep him here.

Exactly... i think we got lucky with injuries last year tbf

[Passmaster Molby]

I think with all the games we have next season, the logical step would be to keep him here.

Exactly. Much rather we have too many options than too few in this packed season. If he hasn't featured much by the new year we can move him on then, but we don't want to leave ourselves short.