Topic: Harry Wilson to get his chance (at Bournemouth!)

[duvva 💅]

I haven’t seen much of Wilson, and if I’m honest what I have seen at Derby has left me a little underwhelmed.

However it’s possible that he hasn’t reached the ceiling of his potential yet, and Klopp has a fairly good track record of getting more out of players, even ones older than Wilson. I’m sure if there’s more to come from him then Klopp will extract that and perhaps he will be good enough for us, which would be great. If he can’t make the grade then I’m equally sure we’ll get a good price for him and if they feel we need to buy someone they will.

[HelterSkelter]

Go look it up yourself,
https://www.premierleague.com/players/10458/Andrew-Robertson/stats?co=1&se=54

Compare and contrast 2016/2017 to 2017/2018. Not holding assists and big chances created against him as he played in a relegation side, but everything else is consistent with what he did the year before we signed him and in his first season year.

There are more data sources out there, you can go look it up.

He didn't need to be the best LB in the world to get signed. But he was good enough to cement his place. He's gone leaps and bounds since then as well.

mate, do you have any idea of the kinds of variables that are required to model any system to any degree?
My god, do people follow doctors on Twitter and then start going round claiming they can treat any disease?

The analysis of statistics is a science. All scientific claims require proof.
A lad claimed that Harry was weak in analytics. If your going to try to use a science to argue your point, prepare to be challenged. So I was mearly inquiring into said lads qualifications is this field? How many years did they study, did they build their own models? is the weather included in the modelling

I'm trying to point out that the clubs models are far more in depth than the models that are available in the public domain, so when seeing someone using analytics to write off Harry it's probably best to see if that person has any insight or just another numpty following a  real mathematician on Twitter


Wrong quote, right person though, sorry

[deFacto please, you bastards]

mate, do you have any idea of the kinds of variables that are required to model any system to any degree?
My god, do people follow doctors on Twitter and then start going round claiming they can treat any disease?

The analysis of statistics is a science. All scientific claims require proof.
A lad claimed that Harry was weak in analytics. If your going to try to use a science to argue your point, prepare to be challenged. So I was mearly inquiring into said lads qualifications is this field? How many years did they study, did they build their own models? is the weather included in the modelling

I'm trying to point out that the clubs models are far more in depth than the models that are available in the public domain, so when seeing someone using analytics to write off Harry it's probably best to see if that person has any insight or just another numpty following a  real mathematician on Twitter


Wrong quote, right person though, sorry

Whether there is more data or not, isn't really my point. What my point was, based on the data that us numpties can access, our recent signings matched the data that is available for said players

Undoubtedly there's more what the club can analyze, I am not debating that. Again you said we continuously sign players that fail in analytics, and thats incorrect

[Peabee]

Fair points. There is a lot more to it than collecting a few metrics that are freely available. Pass completion, for example, is regarded as useless on its own. So what if someone makes loads of short passes that are completed. Did they make any difference? What’s the wider context? Most laypeople also just pick out stats that fit their argument rather than looking at all available data and metrics to build a picture. Reason: that’s a complicated area that needs expert knowledge.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Klopp is very good at making young players on the fringes of the squad feel loved.  Then selling them 

If anyone comes in with a bid in excess of £15m for Wilson then I'm sure he'll be sold.  Shaqiri is making all the right noises about staying and fighting for a place in the team and he's better and more experienced than Wilson, and plays pretty much the same positions.

In excess ?  I bet we won't accept a penny less than £25m.

[HelterSkelter]

Whether there is more data or not, isn't really my point. What my point was, based on the data that us numpties can access, our recent signings matched the data that is available for said players

Undoubtedly there's more what the club can analyze, I am not debating that. Again you said we continuously sign players that fail in analytics, and thats incorrect

I didnt say continuously, the word keep was just a comment on the trend that now stretches to 4 years, of pulling off a left-field(perhaps blind was too dramatic) transfer success at an average of 1 a year.   

[Crosby Nick]

I haven’t seen much of Wilson, and if I’m honest what I have seen at Derby has left me a little underwhelmed.

However it’s possible that he hasn’t reached the ceiling of his potential yet, and Klopp has a fairly good track record of getting more out of players, even ones older than Wilson. I’m sure if there’s more to come from him then Klopp will extract that and perhaps he will be good enough for us, which would be great. If he can’t make the grade then I’m equally sure we’ll get a good price for him and if they feel we need to buy someone they will.

We know he has good delivery. Putting in balls for Mané, Firmino and Salah must be easier than David Nugent and Martin Waghorn.

Not convinced he’ll make it here long term but if he gets a chance he may have the quality to take it. Did he play as a wide forward for Derby or as an attacking midfielder? If we hoes get a chance here, even if it’s only in ore season where’s he most likely to play?

[JC the Messiah]

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/MOF4kI3WV1k" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/MOF4kI3WV1k</a>

Looks good on YouTube highlights clip, isn't that enough?

[PoetryInMotion]

We know he has good delivery. Putting in balls for Mané, Firmino and Salah must be easier than David Nugent and Martin Waghorn.

Not convinced he’ll make it here long term but if he gets a chance he may have the quality to take it. Did he play as a wide forward for Derby or as an attacking midfielder? If we hoes get a chance here, even if it’s only in ore season where’s he most likely to play?

He played as a right sided wide player at the start of the season to somewhere close to the mid-season, post which Lampard spoke to Wilson (Wilson's interview) about him playing like David Silva as one of the midfield 3 stylistically (which could've played a role in his decreasing output for a few months in the middle of the season and using his body to shield the ball & progressing the ball from deeper areas. Towards the end of the season, he was alternated between both roles. In certain phases of the season, he used to play wide in one game and then became a midfielder in the next game itself. Sometimes, the switch was made within games (after subs).

He has played two different roles in a single season. No doubt, basic analytics is confused about him. So, are viewers as well.

And, there's no way he gets on the ball as less as he did for Derby. There were brain dead players around who couldn't find him even in space. He'll be on the ball a lot more and the big thing is that he has coped with the physicality of the Championship (that was his 1 negative during his younger ages, not skill, because he had skill in abundance from his younger days). If he gets a chance, he might take a bit of time to adjust to Klopp's ideas (even senior players like Ox, Robbo and Fabinho took time), but my feeling is that, after that he'll be fine. If Klopp is convinced, he'll 'protect' him and give him safe appearances to start with.

Let's see how pre-season goes.

[JackWard33]

Only RAWK could spend this much time debating a player who almost certainly won’t be here in 6 weeks and if he is will be peripheral to the first team.... and yes I realize I’ve added to the post count... that’s how they get you

[CraigDS]

£25m would be 1/3rd of Dembele...

[Magix]

It would probably be a much more straightforward decision to keep him in the squad if Shaqiri isn't around. This is the tricky part, me thinks, that both are similar in what they offer.

[mrantarctica]

mate, do you have any idea of the kinds of variables that are required to model any system to any degree?
My god, do people follow doctors on Twitter and then start going round claiming they can treat any disease?

The analysis of statistics is a science. All scientific claims require proof.
A lad claimed that Harry was weak in analytics. If your going to try to use a science to argue your point, prepare to be challenged. So I was mearly inquiring into said lads qualifications is this field? How many years did they study, did they build their own models? is the weather included in the modelling

I'm trying to point out that the clubs models are far more in depth than the models that are available in the public domain, so when seeing someone using analytics to write off Harry it's probably best to see if that person has any insight or just another numpty following a  real mathematician on Twitter


Wrong quote, right person though, sorry

Just a few points to clear up :

1) Statistics ARE an analysis. You analyse certain events or occurrences by counting how often they happen and recording information about the circumstances in which these occurrences happen and their relationships to other occurrences, then you are analysing occurrences or phenomena and using statistics to do it.

2) It is not the qualifications that determine whether or not someone's analysis is valid. There are plenty of weak analyses by people who are very qualified to make them, but they just make important errors (i.e. bias) that weaken their position. more important are the metrics they actually use, and how their were derived, and how they use them and interpret them.

3) I think the club probably look at analytics as a portion of whether a player is 'undervalued' in the current market. For instance, if on paper one player does exactly the same things in a game as another player, but that player costs 10% of the other player, then it would make us question whether or not we are getting 90% more value by paying 90% more. In other words - the club is looking at "bang for buck". If you get players for free, the opportunity for "bang for buck" is the highest (because we haven't really paid anything for them). Young players are generally on less money than established stars and so their is perhaps arguably more value there, and less risk also. Rather than blind luck, I would say all of the signings we have made are generally players that are significantly undervalued by the market and we saw that there was genuine quality there but nobody else seemed to have noticed (hence their value not being that high). Can you think of anyone we have really overpaid for?

I'm not sure what Wilson's metrics are, but in our situation, I'm not sure that it actually matters a great deal. We aren't evaluating whether to buy him or not. The most important thing is that we evaluate what he is worth accurately (and that will also change as his contract runs down). If an offer much greater than that comes in for him, then we should sell. If we don't get an offer more than what we value him at then we shouldn't sell. In the meantime, while he is still here, more meaningful than analytics will be for the boss to see him in action and give him an opportunity to stake a claim at the beginning of the season.

[Coolie High]

Only RAWK could spend this much time debating a player who almost certainly won’t be here in 6 weeks and if he is will be peripheral to the first team.... and yes I realize I’ve added to the post count... that’s how they get you

That’s rubbish though, most certainly won’t be here in 6 weeks, how do you know that?

[jillcwhomever]

That’s rubbish though, most certainly won’t be here in 6 weeks, how do you know that?

He doesn't know and happily it will be Klopp who has the ultimate decision on Harry's future. I am pretty sure he will give him every chance in the pre-season to stake a claim. I hope he takes it as he has been a model young pro for us so far and deserves a bit more good will from some supporters. It feels like some think only certain types of signings will do now, which is crazy considering we are not City and cannot ignore the rules. It also needs to be pointed out we need a certain number of home based players in the squad overall.

[JackWard33]

That’s rubbish though, most certainly won’t be here in 6 weeks, how do you know that?

I don’t. I mean id bet he won’t be but wasn’t really the point of my post. I know he’s on your duvet cover but my point is the amount of debate about him is massively disproportionate to his level of importance to the squad whatever happens

[Dim Glas]

I don’t. I mean id bet he won’t be but wasn’t really the point of my post. I know he’s on your duvet cover but my point is the amount of debate about him is massively disproportionate to his level of importance to the squad whatever happens

and that is all down to one poster here (not you  ).

The levels of hype from just one very determined poster who is clearly a massive fan of the player, has made it into this absolute nutty thread. It could have been Ryan Kent if anyone could be arsed following him that closely.

[Believe]

Clearly has talent and has done very well in the Championship, I hope we give him a squad role as there's a player in there.

I'd prefer to see us promote youth than make signings wherever possible.

[Coolie High]

I don’t. I mean id bet he won’t be but wasn’t really the point of my post. I know he’s on your duvet cover but my point is the amount of debate about him is massively disproportionate to his level of importance to the squad whatever happens

As opposed to debating tenuous links to players we won’t sign in the transfer thread..

[Coolie High]

and that is all down to one poster here (not you  ).

The levels of hype from just one very determined poster who is clearly a massive fan of the player, has made it into this absolute nutty thread. It could have been Ryan Kent if anyone could be arsed following him that closely.

Can’t be down to me, when other posters arguing the opposite have had as much posts as me in the same thread?

[Clayton Bigsby]

I cant add anything to this topic but I just really want him to get a chance. 17 goals from midfield for an ambitious championship side has to be worth something.Only 3 penalties as well so not super inflated and he could feasibly fill a gap in our side as far as goalscoring is concerned. His real problem is that there is only currently space as a Mane, Salah understudy as the midfield literally has no vacancies, even though he could well be our biggest goal threat in that position.

Has to take the chances he will receive this pre-season with both hands. Not just goals, or even assisting, just general play, workrate, pressing etc

[JackWard33]

As opposed to debating tenuous links to players we won’t sign in the transfer thread..

Debating tenuous links in the transfer thread is AWESOME and you know it

Thinking about Ousmane Dembele all in red running at Ashley Young gets me through the summer
Thinking about Harry Wilson getting a league cup run out away at Rotherham brings an onset of flaccidity and a mournful stare at the abyss of the summer calendar

[Peabee]

£25m would be 1/3rd of Dembele...

Yeah, if there’s a chance of Dembele being available, I think the club would happily take £25m for Wilson.

[Lynndenberries]

3) I think the club probably look at analytics as a portion of whether a player is 'undervalued' in the current market. For instance, if on paper one player does exactly the same things in a game as another player, but that player costs 10% of the other player, then it would make us question whether or not we are getting 90% more value by paying 90% more. In other words - the club is looking at "bang for buck". If you get players for free, the opportunity for "bang for buck" is the highest (because we haven't really paid anything for them). Young players are generally on less money than established stars and so their is perhaps arguably more value there, and less risk also. Rather than blind luck, I would say all of the signings we have made are generally players that are significantly undervalued by the market and we saw that there was genuine quality there but nobody else seemed to have noticed (hence their value not being that high). Can you think of anyone we have really overpaid for?

I'm not sure what Wilson's metrics are, but in our situation, I'm not sure that it actually matters a great deal. We aren't evaluating whether to buy him or not. The most important thing is that we evaluate what he is worth accurately (and that will also change as his contract runs down). If an offer much greater than that comes in for him, then we should sell. If we don't get an offer more than what we value him at then we shouldn't sell. In the meantime, while he is still here, more meaningful than analytics will be for the boss to see him in action and give him an opportunity to stake a claim at the beginning of the season.

I think the third point will come into play with Wilson, as it did with someone like Solanke. I am sure Klopp would be happy to keep Wilson around the squad, as he was with Solanke, but if someone is going to offer £20m+ for Wilson, I think it will for hard for Klopp/Edwards to turn that down for a player who would maybe get 1500 minutes next season.

[Peabee]

Just a few points to clear up :

1) Statistics ARE an analysis. You analyse certain events or occurrences by counting how often they happen and recording information about the circumstances in which these occurrences happen and their relationships to other occurrences, then you are analysing occurrences or phenomena and using statistics to do it.

2) It is not the qualifications that determine whether or not someone's analysis is valid. There are plenty of weak analyses by people who are very qualified to make them, but they just make important errors (i.e. bias) that weaken their position. more important are the metrics they actually use, and how their were derived, and how they use them and interpret them.

3) I think the club probably look at analytics as a portion of whether a player is 'undervalued' in the current market. For instance, if on paper one player does exactly the same things in a game as another player, but that player costs 10% of the other player, then it would make us question whether or not we are getting 90% more value by paying 90% more. In other words - the club is looking at "bang for buck". If you get players for free, the opportunity for "bang for buck" is the highest (because we haven't really paid anything for them). Young players are generally on less money than established stars and so their is perhaps arguably more value there, and less risk also. Rather than blind luck, I would say all of the signings we have made are generally players that are significantly undervalued by the market and we saw that there was genuine quality there but nobody else seemed to have noticed (hence their value not being that high). Can you think of anyone we have really overpaid for?

I'm not sure what Wilson's metrics are, but in our situation, I'm not sure that it actually matters a great deal. We aren't evaluating whether to buy him or not. The most important thing is that we evaluate what he is worth accurately (and that will also change as his contract runs down). If an offer much greater than that comes in for him, then we should sell. If we don't get an offer more than what we value him at then we shouldn't sell. In the meantime, while he is still here, more meaningful than analytics will be for the boss to see him in action and give him an opportunity to stake a claim at the beginning of the season.

It’s definitely the qualifications and experience that determine valid analyses. It’s the expertise that eliminates bias that, for example, is common in this forum and social media. That’s why the club have hired doctorates including a physicist from CERN. Statistics also isn’t just analysis. Statistics refers to the science of designing, collecting, analysing, inferring, interpreting, presenting, visualising data etc etc.  Listing a bunch of metrics is just a part of Statistics.

[jillcwhomever]

I think the third point will come into play with Wilson, as it did with someone like Solanke. I am sure Klopp would be happy to keep Wilson around the squad, as he was with Solanke, but if someone is going to offer £20m+ for Wilson, I think it will for hard for Klopp/Edwards to turn that down for a player who would maybe get 1500 minutes next season.

Depends how he takes his chances in the pre-season he could do very well and Klopp may reconsider who knows? If Wilson shows enough to him he could yet have a chance here, we still need a certain number of home players in the squad. There is a part of me that would like to see Wilson stay just to see how much it pisses off some of our fans. (I don't mean you though). 

[Lynndenberries]

Depends how he takes his chances in the pre-season he could do very well and Klopp may reconsider who knows? If Wilson shows enough to him he could yet have a chance here, we still need a certain number of home players in the squad. There is a part of me that would like to see Wilson stay just to see how much it pisses off some of our fans. (I don't mean you though). 

Right, obviously none of us have any idea whether or not he is in Klopp's plans. I have mentioned in the transfer and youth threads that I don't think he is based on 1) his player profile 2) statistics and 3) the fact that Klopp usually sells off the players he sends out on loan. As I mentioned earlier in the thread though, I couldn't really care less if he stays this summer, as long as we bring in another wide forward option

[El Lobo]

Depends how he takes his chances in the pre-season he could do very well and Klopp may reconsider who knows? If Wilson shows enough to him he could yet have a chance here, we still need a certain number of home players in the squad. There is a part of me that would like to see Wilson stay just to see how much it pisses off some of our fans. (I don't mean you though). 

Why would it piss off some of our fans if he stays? 

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I wouldn't be pissed off with him staying, I'd be disappointed if we don't sign another attacking player

[jillcwhomever]

Why would it piss off some of our fans if he stays? 

Because some people appear to think that we should only be signing the mega stars and don't seem to be interested in our Academy at all. I'm not saying it's true of all but there is a bit of a tendency to look down on homegrown players which I think is pretty disappointing. Some comments have been pretty harsh when you consider the lad has been a model young professional who has always given his all. I accept some think he won't make it here, but no reason for him to be looked down on.

[Golyo]

Is there a chance that he could be used as a left back in our system? We certainly have an opening there with Moreno leaving, if he could deputise there in some matches, it would increase his minutes. He's managed to play in two different positions already, that's a plus, but I don't know much about his defensive work.

[Golyo]

Because some people appear to think that we should only be signing the mega stars and don't seem to be interested in our Academy at all. I'm not saying it's true of all but there is a bit of a tendency to look down on homegrown players which I think is pretty disappointing. Some comments have been pretty harsh when you consider the lad has been a model young professional who has always given his all. I accept some think he won't make it here, but no reason for him to be looked down on.

Yeah, but that would be stupid. We have Gomez and TAA as club-trained players, we need two more at least from the academy in the coming years. We are finishing the state-of-the-art training complex next year, have just won the CL, we have to sign young players this summer.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

Because some people appear to think that we should only be signing the mega stars and don't seem to be interested in our Academy at all. I'm not saying it's true of all but there is a bit of a tendency to look down on homegrown players which I think is pretty disappointing. Some comments have been pretty harsh when you consider the lad has been a model young professional who has always given his all. I accept some think he won't make it here, but no reason for him to be looked down on.

Nobody has been talking about mega stars in this thread. We haven't signed a mega star since Klopp has been here, we've signed good players who have become mega stars.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Only RAWK could spend this much time debating a player who almost certainly won’t be here in 6 weeks and if he is will be peripheral to the first team.... and yes I realize I’ve added to the post count... that’s how they get you

You're dying to say "I told you so" aren't you,why else would you be in this thread putting down a lad who has worked his way into the managers plans all the way from our youth setup 

[AmanShah21]

One thing about him is that he seems adaptable and he does seem to make an impact. He was one of Hull's best players in his 6-month loan and now again for Derby. There's talks that a championship loan for him is now out of the question, which is good to hear. Regardless of whether the club keeps him, they do see him as a top division talent with a bright future. I do not expect us to sell him. We'll be looking to send him on loan to a top division club in one of the big leagues and see if he continues on his growth trajectory. I am convinced there's a player in there who could be great for us, but needs careful development.

[JackWard33]

You're dying to say "I told you so" aren't you,why else would you be in this thread putting down a lad who has worked his way into the managers plans all the way from our youth setup 

You have me confused with some other poster I think
I’ve been wrong about players and right about them over the years - don’t think I’ve ever once said ‘I told you so’ in relation to something that hasn’t worked out for our club... if I had I’d feel embarrassed by it I’m sure
I’d love to make Harry Wilson good enough to be a first team Liverpool player .... why wouldn’t I?
It’s my honest opinion he isn’t close to being good enough and I don’t really see why this is particularly controversial - don’t think most objective / non Liverpool fans would expect him to play much of a role for us next season

As for his personal situation. Fair fucks to him and any other lad who gets themselves to the point where they’re a pro ... I couldn’t do it and most couldn’t and Wilson is going to have a great career and bank several million.

That said I’m not going to start thinking players are better than they are just because they’re on our books or have been at some point - hundreds, thousands of players have been though LFC over the years most haven’t been good enough.
We’re trying to compete with the best resourced, most ruthless clubs in the world - it’s a brutal business not decide whose a good lad or who deserves a chance.
We’ll constantly buy players that are better than young players on our books that’s the way it has to be if we want to win.
Anyway good luck to him and to his bizarrely large number of RAWK fans - I genuinely hope to be completely wrong about him

[PoetryInMotion]

I don’t. I mean id bet he won’t be but wasn’t really the point of my post. I know he’s on your duvet cover but my point is the amount of debate about him is massively disproportionate to his level of importance to the squad whatever happens

If you want to look at the other spectrum, there are plenty of posts on Everton and GOT on RAWK. That doesn't mean that is proportional to the level of importance of Blues here.

Your logic makes no sense, there are hundreds of threads and discussions on RAWK. Last season, he was our best performing player on loan, and this is summer window where his future will be evaluated. It is quite obvious why there is a discussion around him. And it's a discussion, not a 'debate', since nobody on this forum clearly knows enough at this point of time about his future to 'debate'.

[PoetryInMotion]

Debating tenuous links in the transfer thread is AWESOME and you know it

Thinking about Ousmane Dembele all in red running at Ashley Young gets me through the summer
Thinking about Harry Wilson getting a league cup run out away at Rotherham brings an onset of flaccidity and a mournful stare at the abyss of the summer calendar

Great attitude about our youth players! And a fantastic message to any young players looking to come through   

You could've said the same about Trent Alexander-Arnold 2-3 years ago comparing him with Mbappe.

[PoetryInMotion]

Why would it piss off some of our fans if he stays? 

For some weird reason, those set of fans have been putting his chances down right from the off.

It takes away from football romanticism, if part of it is signing exciting players, then part of it is seeing promising youth players come through. Are some of our fans becoming spoilt lately?

I really want us to sign another attacking player to help out the current 3 in terms of taking games off them. I also want an exciting young player being given his chance to come through, especially someone who can play in attack or midfield. Both are not mutually exclusive.

[El Lobo]

For some weird reason, those set of fans have been putting his chances down right from the off.

It takes away from football romanticism, if part of it is signing exciting players, then part of it is seeing promising youth players come through. Are some of our fans becoming spoilt lately?

I really want us to sign another attacking player to help out the current 3 in terms of taking games off them. I also want an exciting young player being given his chance to come through, especially someone who can play in attack or midfield. Both are not mutually exclusive.

‘They’ haven’t though

‘They’ have seen him play a full season at a relatively high level in the Championship, with plenty of opportunity to see him live or in extended highlights, and made an informed decision that they don’t believe his all round game is good enough for us. And he’s not a kid in football terms, he’s 22.

It’s all a little odd, like Jack says. Why on earth wouldn’t a Liverpool fan want a youngster to succeed here? I’m excited about Brewster, about Jones, about Woodburn (still), about Hoever, about Glatzel. Being excited about our youngsters doesn’t mean we all just have to blindly rate them all highly and think they all deserve a chance.

There’s a number of pretty ridiculous accusations in this thread around not valuing the academy, obviously not watching football if you don’t rate Wilson, only being interested in megastars etc. I rate Wilson the same as Kent or Ojo. Good youngsters who have had good loan spells but have got to a point now where they’re unlikely to be of the required standard for us. But we can make some good money on them by either selling this summer or giving a loan spell at a higher level and selling next summer.

The list of homegrown youngsters who make a career at this club is tiny and full of superstars because that’s essentially what you need to be