Author Topic: European and World Champion and all round Big Man Joseph Dave Gomez  (Read 774185 times)

Offline -HH-

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #160 on: August 5, 2015, 08:45:11 pm »
Weve got a specialist left back we spent millions on last year. The whole playing players out of position didnt exactly pay off if memory serves last season. Its not as if hes slotting into a settled defence either, Clyne, Lovren and Gomez will all be new to each other. Its Rodgers being too clever for his own good. I was hoping lessons would have been learnt. Lesson 1 being full backs play at fullback.

That's a hugely simplistic argument. If you're trying to shoehorn a comparison between different situations involving different players that's always going to be the case.

I also disagree that the lesson to be learned is that you never play players our of position. Our most successful part of last season came with a 3-4-2-1 with people like Markovic and Ibe playing wing back, Can at centre - back and Sterling up front.

That's not an argument either for or against playing players out of position. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But in Gomez's case he has played full-back plenty of times before and playing young centre - backs at full back is a common way to give them games and one of the more usually successful positional transitions.

But if you can't take each case on its own merits your arguments will be easy to pick apart. And no manager who has a hard and fast rule about never playing people out of position is likely to ever be successful.
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Offline SwordInYourGut

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #161 on: August 5, 2015, 09:04:05 pm »
In this Moreno vs Gomez debate, I hope it hasn't been lost on anyone that we have just procured an absolutely incredible talent. Gomez seems to have even surpassed the club's own expectations of him.

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #162 on: August 5, 2015, 09:09:21 pm »
That's a hugely simplistic argument. If you're trying to shoehorn a comparison between different situations involving different players that's always going to be the case.

I also disagree that the lesson to be learned is that you never play players our of position. Our most successful part of last season came with a 3-4-2-1 with people like Markovic and Ibe playing wing back, Can at centre - back and Sterling up front.

That's not an argument either for or against playing players out of position. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But in Gomez's case he has played full-back plenty of times before and playing young centre - backs at full back is a common way to give them games and one of the more usually successful positional transitions.

But if you can't take each case on its own merits your arguments will be easy to pick apart. And no manager who has a hard and fast rule about never playing people out of position is likely to ever be successful.

OK then. In my opininion we should start the season with as settled a team as possible. Giving debuts to Milner, Benteke and maybe Firmino is fine. But then also giving a debut to Clyne and Gomez seems a bit like overkill.

There are indeed times to try new things I agree and yes sometimes a bonus eg Can at centreback can be found but I dont think Stoke away is the time to try it. Just my opinion and maybe he'll have a blinder just seems risky thats all.

Offline ThePeetmix

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #163 on: August 5, 2015, 09:10:28 pm »
In this Moreno vs Gomez debate, I hope it hasn't been lost on anyone that we have just procured an absolutely incredible talent. Gomez seems to have even surpassed the club's own expectations of him.

I doubt the club, the fans and Brendan expected him to settle in so well. We've only seen him in the pre-season games but it could well be that he's been very impressive in training too.

If he does what we want from our full-backs, then I don't care if he's 18 or 38... his first game or his 200th... you put him in.

Moreno, for all the good games he can have, he can also have poor games too. Inconsistency is a managers worst nightmare because they don't know what to expect when their team steps out on to the field. It's the same reason why Flanno got his go, because we knew exactly what to expect from him.

Offline jepovic

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #164 on: August 5, 2015, 09:14:48 pm »
Starting a completely fresh 18-year old in the opening game away seems very risky. But it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Gomez on the left, Lovren in the middle and Lucas on the bench. Rodgers loves a gamble.

Offline Mr_Shane

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #165 on: August 5, 2015, 09:28:05 pm »
about as ballsy as the time he threw Flannagan on against Arsenal, and sent Teixeira on against Fulham. Yup throwing Gomez on against Stoke is just the sort of thing our manager would do.  ;D

Offline JustDan

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #166 on: August 5, 2015, 09:38:49 pm »
about as ballsy as the time he threw Flannagan on against Arsenal, and sent Teixeira on against Fulham. Yup throwing Gomez on against Stoke is just the sort of thing our manager would do.  ;D
He's got balls. I like balls.

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #167 on: August 5, 2015, 09:47:12 pm »

Offline -HH-

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #168 on: August 5, 2015, 09:48:07 pm »
OK then. In my opininion we should start the season with as settled a team as possible. Giving debuts to Milner, Benteke and maybe Firmino is fine. But then also giving a debut to Clyne and Gomez seems a bit like overkill.

There are indeed times to try new things I agree and yes sometimes a bonus eg Can at centreback can be found but I dont think Stoke away is the time to try it. Just my opinion and maybe he'll have a blinder just seems risky thats all.

I agree with you on that to a point. However, I would be surprised to see Firmino start the game and I think given that Milner and Henderson have played together almost all of pre season plus some time with England I don't see Milner as needing any great amount of bedding in. So really in my eyes your newbies are only Clyne, Gomez and Benteke. And I don't think that's unreasonable.

On Gomez and Clyne - the only real alternative in the squad to either is Moreno who hasn't had a full pre season, while Gomez has obviously impressed. I can see it both ways but I can understand why Gomez/Clyne might be the choice.
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Offline Mamadou

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #169 on: August 5, 2015, 09:56:53 pm »
he's like Manquillo
" Throw me to the wolves and I will return leading the pack"

Offline Loo Pan

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #170 on: August 5, 2015, 10:05:35 pm »
he's like Manquillo

Only a lot better

Offline jepovic

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #171 on: August 5, 2015, 10:08:42 pm »
So a 18-yo CB is our first backup as FB? That's just scary

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #172 on: August 5, 2015, 10:12:21 pm »
So a 18-yo CB is our first backup as FB? That's just scary

Scary impressive! Imagine what he will be in a few seasons? Manager as well!?

Offline jepovic

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #173 on: August 5, 2015, 10:22:02 pm »
21 matches in Championship, that's his entire CV. He's a defender!
I think this is a new record for thinly based hype of a talent.

Offline ThePeetmix

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #174 on: August 5, 2015, 10:23:30 pm »
21 matches in Championship, that's his entire CV. He's a defender!
I think this is a new record for thinly based hype of a talent.

He created his own hype, simply by impressing in pre-season matches.

I think before the Thailand all-stars game, people were on about him heading out on loan for a season.

Offline Chris~

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #175 on: August 5, 2015, 10:25:29 pm »
He's a defender!
Well that makes him better back up than Enrique.

Offline jepovic

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #176 on: August 5, 2015, 10:37:58 pm »
He created his own hype, simply by impressing in pre-season matches.

I think before the Thailand all-stars game, people were on about him heading out on loan for a season.
Exactly, pre-season matches! Against teams who barely attacked - how can you judge defenders from those games? It's just absurd.
Even Aspas looked great in preseason.

Offline -HH-

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #177 on: August 5, 2015, 10:40:11 pm »
Exactly, pre-season matches! Against teams who barely attacked - how can you judge defenders from those games? It's just absurd.
Even Aspas looked great in preseason.

True, and look how it turned out - Aspas was a terrible defender.
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Offline Phil M

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #178 on: August 5, 2015, 10:47:00 pm »
True, and look how it turned out - Aspas was a terrible defender.

;D
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Offline ThePeetmix

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #179 on: August 5, 2015, 10:47:19 pm »
Exactly, pre-season matches! Against teams who barely attacked - how can you judge defenders from those games? It's just absurd.
Even Aspas looked great in preseason.

You can have a bit of a sense of it though. The way he linked up with players, the way he made his decisions. The simple things.

Everything else, is down to training sessions and stuff we can't see, which he's obviously impressed in to if he's favourite to start on Sunday.

If they're good enough...

Offline jepovic

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #180 on: August 5, 2015, 10:49:23 pm »
Lovren looked great last preseason.

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #181 on: August 5, 2015, 10:50:49 pm »
Lovren looked great last preseason.

Wasnt it just the one game?

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #182 on: August 5, 2015, 10:51:20 pm »
Exactly, pre-season matches! Against teams who barely attacked - how can you judge defenders from those games? It's just absurd.
Even Aspas looked great in preseason.
Lovren looked great last preseason.

Fuck sake, this means Ibe's going to have a shit season, doesn't it?

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #183 on: August 5, 2015, 10:54:33 pm »
Fuck sake, this means Ibe's going to have a shit season, doesn't it?
What does Fordy think?
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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #184 on: August 5, 2015, 11:00:43 pm »
I think this guy is the real deal.

Yes, it's only pre-season against glorified amateurs, but just seems to have a certain class about him.

Offline jepovic

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #185 on: August 5, 2015, 11:01:40 pm »
Fuck sake, this means Ibe's going to have a shit season, doesn't it?
No, preseason means nothing.

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #186 on: August 5, 2015, 11:02:22 pm »
Exactly, pre-season matches! Against teams who barely attacked - how can you judge defenders from those games? It's just absurd.
Even Aspas looked great in preseason.

He'll also be judged on how he's coped in training against proven Premier League standard players.

If he wasn't ready to play Premier League football then he wouldn't be in contention now.  That Rodgers dismissed the notion that he would go out on loan so quickly is probably a good indication of how quickly and to what extent Gomez impressed the manager and coaching staff.  He might be young but the talent he has is obvious so it wouldn't surprise me at all if he performs like he's been playing at the highest level for years.  There will be bumps along the road as is the case with any young player but I think in Gomez we have one who is going to adapt and mature very quickly.

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #187 on: August 5, 2015, 11:02:59 pm »
He's still no where near as good as moreno at left back wouldn't have him starting.

Offline jepovic

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #188 on: August 5, 2015, 11:05:46 pm »
He'll also be judged on how he's coped in training against proven Premier League standard players.

If he wasn't ready to play Premier League football then he wouldn't be in contention now.  That Rodgers dismissed the notion that he would go out on loan so quickly is probably a good indication of how quickly and to what extent Gomez impressed the manager and coaching staff.  He might be young but the talent he has is obvious so it wouldn't surprise me at all if he performs like he's been playing at the highest level for years.  There will be bumps along the road as is the case with any young player but I think in Gomez we have one who is going to adapt and mature very quickly.
That would be fantastic, but that's just hopes right now. If he has problems adapting to PL, as 99.9% of all defenders at that age, we have no backup behind Moreno and Clyne.

18 yo is extremely young for a defender.Like 15 or 16 for an attacking player. If Gomez does make it in his first season, it would be more impressive than Owen's breakthrough. Carragher took years to get established.
« Last Edit: August 5, 2015, 11:08:59 pm by jepovic »

Offline Djimi Smicer34

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #189 on: August 5, 2015, 11:05:53 pm »
No, preseason means nothing.

Let's judge that on Sunday because if Joe Gomez does start he might well look back on this pre-season as one of the most pivotal periods of his career.

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #190 on: August 5, 2015, 11:09:21 pm »
21 matches in Championship, that's his entire CV. He's a defender!
I think this is a new record for thinly based hype of a talent.

Graeme Souness threw in 19 year old Rob Jones against Ryan Giggs a couple of days after he'd signed.  Jones had Giggs in his pocket.  Never mind the age, it's all about the talent and it looks like Gomez has it in spades.
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Offline Djimi Smicer34

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #191 on: August 5, 2015, 11:11:59 pm »
That would be fantastic, but that's just hopes right now. If he has problems adapting to PL, as 99.9% of all defenders at that age, we have no backup behind Moreno and Clyne.

Do they? 

Offline Phil M

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #192 on: August 5, 2015, 11:13:56 pm »
Graeme Souness threw in 19 year old Rob Jones against Ryan Giggs a couple of days after he'd signed.  Jones had Giggs in his pocket.  Never mind the age, it's all about the talent and it looks like Gomez has it in spades.

Similarly everyone was impressed with Javier Manquillo's early outings for us last season. The lad was only 20 and had only a handful of first team appearances with Atletico before he came to the PL. Hopefully if Gomez is entrusted with a starting spot he'll prove the manager right in placing his trust in him.
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Offline ElstonGunn

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #193 on: August 5, 2015, 11:15:16 pm »
I actually don't think 18 is crazily young to be playing fullback. Bellerin, e.g., was one of the best fullbacks in the league last year at 19. Rafael played 28 times for United at 18. Flanagan made his debut at 18. Jack Robinson was better for us at 17 than at 20. :) Gibbs had 21 games for Arsenal at 19. Etc.

It's really, really young to be playing center back of course.

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #194 on: August 5, 2015, 11:24:52 pm »
Graeme Souness threw in 19 year old Rob Jones against Ryan Giggs a couple of days after he'd signed.  Jones had Giggs in his pocket.  Never mind the age, it's all about the talent and it looks like Gomez has it in spades.

But Jones was a right back. Always had been. Gomez is a fucking centre half being played out of position. If Gomez starts lb it illustrates what an atrocious buy Moreno was
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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #195 on: August 5, 2015, 11:25:41 pm »
I actually don't think 18 is crazily young to be playing fullback. Bellerin, e.g., was one of the best fullbacks in the league last year at 19. Rafael played 28 times for United at 18. Flanagan made his debut at 18. Jack Robinson was better for us at 17 than at 20. :) Gibbs had 21 games for Arsenal at 19. Etc.

It's really, really young to be playing center back of course.

Agreed, and RB wouldnt be an issue, but LB?!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #196 on: August 5, 2015, 11:26:49 pm »
Can't be arsed drafting anything fresh so I'm just wheeling out this. Suffice to say he's nailed on for left back unless Clyne is absent for whatever reason in which case he'd play on his more natural left side. Anyone who thinks otherwise [that he hasn't forced his way into the team] hasn't been watching or else doesn't quite understand what it is they're watching.

He gave a fabulous full back performance in both games. Immensely impressive by any standard. Some are saying the competition was duff. Well okay we weren't playing Barca but but believe me both sides were decent enough and fought like tigers, contesting every ball. If he'd have faltered then they'd have smelt blood and gone for him. As it was he never gave them a sniff and ruled the entire flank in both games.

Hyperbole or not the lad was like a Rolls Royce amongst Vauxhall Omegas. Definitely the signing of the summer and possibly the last two or three centuries.  Don't get me wrong the likes of Milner, Clyne and Ibe played great but this lad was the business. Had me purring like some depraved cat. I'm afraid poor old Alberto will be confined to the games room with his buddy Jose.

 :)

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #197 on: August 5, 2015, 11:31:33 pm »
Agreed, and RB wouldnt be an issue, but LB?!!!!!!!!!!

Gomez can play anywhere in defence so what is the issue if he is at left-back?

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #198 on: August 5, 2015, 11:32:57 pm »
He's still no where near as good as moreno at left back wouldn't have him starting.
Moreno was pretty awful for large parts of the post Christmas part of last season. His performance at home to Palace was a particular low point, not sure at any point did he know where Bolaise was!

Gomez has impressed in every game and can only play what is in front of him. He's quick, strong, appears composed and looks totally unfazed by it all. Get him in!
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Offline ThePeetmix

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Re: Joseph Dave Gomez - Liverpools number 12
« Reply #199 on: August 5, 2015, 11:34:51 pm »
But Jones was a right back. Always had been. Gomez is a fucking centre half being played out of position. If Gomez starts lb it illustrates what an atrocious buy Moreno was

For the last time, Gomez isn't just a centre half. He plays anywhere across the defence. He did that at Charlton and he'll do that here. It's nothing like playing Dejan Lovren at left-back.