Topic: Brendan Rodgers-Liverpool Manager

[Fitzy.]

A bit unfair mate Enrique had a terrific start to his career under Kenny and there were plenty of people dumbfounded he wasn't playing for Spain and Henderson played a full part in the Cup runs last season.

Enrique started well but was poor. You hope it's the other way around when signing a player. Henderson was very average in his first season, poorly used and lacking in confidence. To suggest he looked a good buy in his first year is a stretch. However, I've said before in this debate, the overall improvement in general performance from the team in 12/13 may have been a natural progression that may have happened with KD. Total conjecture though and unfairly dismissing of Rodgers' coaching skills.

[TSC]

Also, it doesn't matter if FSG lack knowledge or not. See the curious case of the Glazers. Do they know anything about football? I doubt it. Do United do well every year? No shit. Why? They back the manager, the manager and his scouts buy well, they have an excellent mentality and they win non stop. FSG provide the money, and if we'd used it properly we'd already be in the top 4 and no one would even care if John Henry was shagging Ayre while Ayre would be doing 120 miles an hour on his Harley at the same time. Uptil this January, we failed to do so, hence we didn't progress as much as we should/could have. 

UTD had years of stability and lets face it ferguson.  But in addition a structure to support not just ferguson but development throughout the club, from commercial through to the playing side.

We've scored a few points in recent years on the commercial front, although not hard given the starting position whereby Parry et al had underperformed massively previously.

On the structure front there's still a massive gap.  A lack of individuals with any football knowledge at the top.  Which doesn't help a novice manager.  LFC structure v Man UTD structure in this respect is chalk and cheese.  We've got Ian Ayre, self appointed jack of all trades, master of nowt.

[SweetSilverSevens]

I responded to a post in which you attribute the signings during Kenny's time to him alone. I never said that you disrespected the man, but you put all the blame on the failed signings on his shoulders. That is simply unfair. He's taken it, because he embodies the club. But at the time all signings were largely portrayed as Moneyball signings - statistics based assists, passes, what not. I don't suppose you think that this was Kenny's idea. The list of targets has been comprised without or with minimum input from Kenny's. He had, of course, the veto power for not signing a player, but I very seriously doubt that he had any mandating power to sign any given player.

Of course Kenny had some power over transfers. Kenny would not have allowed anyone to dictate him what players should be brought in. He played the system he wanted, and he knew he needed certain types of players in certain positions. For example, wanting to play Henderson out wide right, resembles his decision to wanting to play Houghton out wide right for the 87/88 side. Suarez as Beardsley, Downing as.... er... Barnes! 

When it came down to it, there have been a couple of games where Rodgers play Downing/Henderson as our two wide players (against Norwich(H), Man City (A), second half against Chelsea (H)), and he played them on the opposite flanks, and got more out of them. We looked a hell of a lot more coherent as a midfield/attack. So it's not just about transfers, but how much you are getting out players as a manager.

Yes, "the list" of players might have been derived from statistics... but we would've scoured stats of players from all over Europe. But when it came to our biggest signings, we went with the British targets, most likely because Kenny would've known them better. And there's NOTHING wrong using statistics; these days every club would be using them to aid their transfer decisions - we still do now. But it's just about using them correctly, and not completely relying on them..... so it is also down to Kenny/Damien's ability to judge players, and who would fit in best. You trying to tell me Juan Mata didn't have good statistics to support and promote him a prominent target???

[markedasred]

If you had to be critical of Comolli in one thing in all this it would most likely be the amounts he paid. At the same time we had the new ownership coming in and clubs all probably saw dollar signs over his head as they spoke. I suspect Kenny raised an eyebrow on one or more occasions at the prices we paid, but it was about the moment. FSG turned that around to a significant degree with the Dempsey situation, even though it would have worked well for them to have him for the sake of US marketing of the team.
You have to say that we are still not at the point where the machinery of the club has worked fully yet in the direction of making Rodgers managing easier, but the improvement of off field factors is notable.
It makes the question of the original post possible changeable to has Brendan been given a fair chance yet to make the reds a better team. To which the answer is not yet, as the folks above him are on more of a learning curve than he is, and he is not yet himself the finished article. If they manage to be better decision making owners then hopefully this will be the year when the OP is a fair question - with the caveat that I have very much enjoyed quite a lot of the football once we were past those first five games.

[NGreat]

Wonder if they'd gave Kenny another year would we have finished 7th?  No chance. 

What are you basing that on? Three months of relegation form in addition to being linked with the likes of Diame & Defoe? From the previous season there was very little to suggest that we would have finished higher than 7th under Dalglish.

[Mutton Geoff]

What the hell is there left to say in here,

when he wins something compare him, more points but finishing out of Europe means zilch. its like saying we could have
been a contender!

 this thread needs to be put out of its misery i vote for a humane locking myself.

[TSC]

What are you basing that on? Three months of relegation form in addition to being linked with the likes of Diame & Defoe? From the previous season there was very little to suggest that we would have finished higher than 7th under Dalglish.

Oh I don't know.  Maybe was something to do with what he'd achieved, you know, titles and trophies etc.  But you're right.  3 months trumps years of achievement as player and manager.  Carry on then.

Personally think this thread should be closed now.  Season's well over and has been analysed to death.   

[Lucas DuoFlush]

The answer to the question, for now, is surely a yes? He has improved the points tally since taking over (a quantitative success), away goals and goals scored (also successes). In a qualitative sense, we play more attractive, more effective football with a squad that has more potential and youth on its side. Next season is another question, but in answer to the question up until this point I can't see how anyone would reply no.

[PhaseOfPlay]

What the hell is there left to say in here,

when he wins something compare him, more points but finishing out of Europe means zilch. its like saying we could have
been a contender!

 this thread needs to be put out of its misery i vote for a humane locking myself.

Seconded. He's improved the team undoubtedly, but not to the standard of previous managers, for which he'll need a bit of time.

[farawayred]

Seconded. He's improved the team undoubtedly, but not to the standard of previous managers, for which he'll need a bit of time.

+1

Perhaps we should reopen next year, but it's way too early. Rodgers hadn't have a real chance to put his stamp on the team just yet. It's happening though...

[Black Bull Nova]

What are you basing that on? Three months of relegation form in addition to being linked with the likes of Diame & Defoe? From the previous season there was very little to suggest that we would have finished higher than 7th under Dalglish.

Kenny got 68 points from his first 38 games, that after being thrown in at 24 hours notice (if you want to discount the Blackpool game on the basis of no preparation time that would have been 71) which was CL form for both those seasons, I wish people would not talk shite and re-write history.

[aggerdid]

As a fan base we seem to have become obsessed with labelling transfers as successful or shit.

[Black Bull Nova]

As a fan base we seem to have become obsessed with labelling transfers as successful or shit.

Not just transfers, everything goes from fantastic to shit on a weekly basis with some, players who have a bad game are labelled shite and the next week, three good passes and a shot and they are superstars, shallow days indeed.

[Passmaster Molby]

Better team or not - clearly thats debatable.

Is this team competitive? I would say no and thats what hurts me as a fan. Right now, Liverpool Football Club do not have a competitive side that looks like it could win things. That MUST change next season.

[Redman0151]

Better team or not - clearly thats debatable.

Is this team competitive? I would say no and thats what hurts me as a fan. Right now, Liverpool Football Club do not have a competitive side that looks like it could win things. That MUST change next season.

We knew in order to build for long term success, we had to take the short term kick in the bollocks

[PhaseOfPlay]

Kenny got 68 points from his first 38 games, that after being thrown in at 24 hours notice (if you want to discount the Blackpool game on the basis of no preparation time that would have been 71) which was CL form for both those seasons, I wish people would not talk shite and re-write history.

He was on 87 points if you count his first half season after his return and the 54 points he left us with. In other words, we're massaging the figures here for something that doesn't need to be proven. Kenny was a great manager, but our league form tailed off after that January/February, for a number of reasons (off-field and on-field). Spreading the points across two season to make a justification is poor logic. Kenny doesn't need to be justified. At the same time, we don't need to put the current manager down in order to negate the poor league form the team showed after the League cup was won last season. Managers and teams have good and bad spells. It's the quality of their work that makes them stand out, which is why Rafa is held in high esteem even though he never won the league, and why Paisley's 3 European cups in 9 years will always be a better achievement than Ferguson's 2 in 27. Whenever it's "Manager X v Manager Y" on these forums, it always makes me think that sometimes we forget how lucky we've been as a club that every manager at Liverpool who has had at least one full season since Shanks began has won at least one trophy. The difference is the time it took them to win those trophies. Some won instantly, like Fagan, Kenny, Souness, Evans and Rafa. Others had to build, over a season or two, like Shanks, Bob and Houllier. If Rodgers is given time and backing, he'll win trophies too. Some managers work fast, others work slow. The real time to evaluate a manager's worth is when their time is done, not during. All we can do during is look at the quality of the team and ask "is it improving in a positive manner from when they took over?" - not "Is this manager better than the last one?". We should be an inclusive support, not a divisive one.

[Passmaster Molby]

We knew in order to build for long term success, we had to take the short term kick in the bollocks

Thats what Brendan told us to expect, but it wasn't really the mentality of a winner was it? The reality is we should have done much better given the resources available to us, and to go from League cup winners and FA Cup finalists to having a nothing season is not good enough.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Thats what Brendan told us to expect, but it wasn't really the mentality of a winner was it? The reality is we should have done much better given the resources available to us, and to go from League cup winners and FA Cup finalists to having a nothing season is not good enough.

It's absolutely the mentality of a winner. And the mentality of a good coach. To play the way we try to play means you will make early mistakes but for longer term gains - but you're always pushing forward, towards long-term success. The winning comes from the players, incidentally. Over two decades now involved in the game as a player and coach and it is still the greatest truth of the game - it all comes down to the players. A manager can drive a team to win, or sure, but at some point it will collapse like a house of cards, the second they get satisfied. There's a reason why Shanks signed the players he did, and got rid of 20-odd players when he arrived, and a reason why Paisley would goad his players every season with "if you've had enough of winning, let me know and we'll find someone to take your place". The manager is one person. The team is 11-14 players. If even half of those don't have the winning mentality, the team will always be in trouble. There are a few reasons behind FSG letting Kenny go, but one of those reasons is that the players let him down after the League cup because they got complacent because a few of them never won a trophy before, and now they had one in their back pocket.  A manager's job is to replace those players. Kenny never got the chance. Rodgers has repeatedly spoken about character. He clearly sees the problem. But without a mega-chest of money, it'll take a bit longer to get the team where he wants them to be. But to say he's not a winner? Let's see about that. If he wins nothing in his time here, you will be proven correct. But I think there's more chance of him winning something than not.

If you judge everything by cups, then Houllier should never have been sacked. He is, after all, our most successful manager since Kenny.   

[elpistolero7]

Thats what Brendan told us to expect, but it wasn't really the mentality of a winner was it? The reality is we should have done much better given the resources available to us, and to go from League cup winners and FA Cup finalists to having a nothing season is not good enough.

Do you realize how much the wage bill was trimmed? 500k a week basically, that's 5 top players worth of wages. Then, some serious experience and quality left us (Maxi, Bellamy, Kuyt) and that was all set in stone before Rodgers even got here!
League Cup and FA cup finalists we were for sure, but how many times had we won two games on the bounce in the league? Remember our stunning record at Anfield? The last 3 months were relegation form mate, relegation fucking form. You expect Rodgers to come in, take over a wildly inconsistent side, lose half the attack, get screwed over on deadline day and start two teenagers for half a season in attack next to Suarez, and do a lot better? (The Borini injury was so, so unfortunate, and it would really have helped to get in Sturridge and Coutinho back in the summer).Yes, paint the picture as if we were great side when Rodgers took us over and then descended into a poor outfit. Stunning, stunning reasoning there.

I don't mean any of this as a slight on Kenny. The cup runs were magnificent, but the league has to be the number 1 priority in today's football. He'd still be in a job had he not got past the first round in either of the cups and managed to finish 4th. Champions league is beyond essential for progress. And as much as we were able to raise our games and do well in the cups, we really were struggling terribly in the league. Kenny would probably have sorted that out (get rid of the complacent players etc) but wasn't given the chance. Rodgers inherited a pretty shoddy situation, had to wage trim big time and had 19 million net to spend in the summer to replace Carroll, Maxi, Adam, Bellamy, Kuyt among others.

With the way we lined up till Sturridge and Coutinho arrived (left backs/17 year olds starting in attack every week, and not 1 but 2 positions! how the hell do you expect him to get more than he did).

[Kopmansam1993]

BR had a good first season, exceeded my league expectations of 60 points, disappointing in the cups, though the Zenit Anfield game was a great night and showed real class, unfortunately his two subs took our momentum away and stopped us going on to win.

I'm really worried for next season, it looks like we're going to be selling out, Skrtel, Suarez and Reina may leave, as well as Carra, we may have to rebuild the back 4 and get a new keeper + attacking players, that's the fundamentals of a whole new team!

Then next season will be the "rebuilding season" where we build chemistry again, back to square one, where me might then sell next summer, BR should be given the chance to build his new team, but not all too quickly!

[hem1987]

Wrong topic!!! Apologies

Hey guys!!!

In my profile pic in the left hand side ... its showing ... "No new LFC topics" . Anybody know  why ?

[CHOPPER]

You're shit.

[Mutton Geoff]

Wrong topic!!! Apologies

Hey guys!!!

In my profile pic in the left hand side ... its showing ... "No new LFC topics" . Anybody know  why ?

yes it means you cannot start threads, might be content or quality ask a mod, Edit Chopper describes it far better

As for this thread i would mothball it till next summer, for two reasons, the scars left by sacking Kenny might be partially healed for me this is a factor, and how the hell can we judge Rodgers on a season of transfer fuck ups, suspensions, back room changes, a stupid fly on the shit/wall  documentary and  seemingly his settling in period which included a tweak by Rodgers of his own ideas.

The last point, the way he changed it and the signings of Sturridge and Coutinho are for me major plusses for Brendan but as said its way too early to decide if he is the right man yet.

[hem1987]

You're shit.

Uncivilized response from uncivilized guy !!! Nothing new expected from you .

[hem1987]

yes it means you cannot start threads, might be content or quality ask a mod, Edit Chopper describes it far better

As for this thread i would mothball it till next summer, for two reasons, the scars left by sacking Kenny might be partially healed for me this is a factor, and how the hell can we judge Rodgers on a season of transfer fuck ups, suspensions, back room changes, a stupid fly on the shit/wall  documentary and  seemingly his settling in period which included a tweak by Rodgers of his own ideas.

The last point, the way he changed it and the signings of Sturridge and Coutinho are for me major plusses for Brendan but as said its way too early to decide if he is the right man yet.

Thanks ..got it now. damn rawk moderators have done this!!!!

We create a topic for players " Happy birthday <player name>" , who are least bothered about fans or clubs.

I just created a topic wishing birthday for myself (today). they block it .

We call #LFC Family club# .Too bad Rawk moderators don't know the principle of our club 

[Mutton Geoff]

Thanks ..got it now. damn rawk moderators have done this!!!!

We create a topic for players " Happy birthday <player name>" , who are least bothered about fans or clubs.

I just created a topic wishing birthday for myself (today). they block it .

We call #LFC Family club# .Too bad Rawk moderators don't know the principle of our club 

if you look there is a section on the bottom of the list for feedback maybe that post should go there, i reckon Pheeny will be sympathetic to your plight!

[CHOPPER]

See, told ye.

[hem1987]

if you look there is a section on the bottom of the list for feedback maybe that post should go there, i reckon Pheeny will be sympathetic to your plight!

That is equal to appealing for suarez 10 match ban with F.A 

Both LFC and me know what will be end score . Further ban 

[farawayred]

Uncivilized response from uncivilized guy !!! Nothing new expected from you .

His Holliness Pope Chopper VI doesn't like this.

[capt k]

Thanks ..got it now. damn rawk moderators have done this!!!!

We create a topic for players " Happy birthday <player name>" , who are least bothered about fans or clubs.

I just created a topic wishing birthday for myself (today). they block it .

We call #LFC Family club# .Too bad Rawk moderators don't know the principle of our club 

See you should have put the link up for the petition and youd have been fine..

[Mutton Geoff]

See you should have put the link up for the petition and youd have been fine..

this is true but there again the petition is far more important than most of the bollux in here these days!

[hem1987]

See you should have put the link up for the petition and youd have been fine..

oh...yeah... Slow to catch up with the new trends ...my bad !!!

[Fitzy.]

Oh I don't know.  Maybe was something to do with what he'd achieved, you know, titles and trophies etc.  But you're right.  3 months trumps years of achievement as player and manager.  Carry on then.

Personally think this thread should be closed now.  Season's well over and has been analysed to death.   

I guess this post encapsulates the frustrations I have with this thread. Rodgers is compared to a club legend. He cannot win. Said legend's achievements are used to decry any evaluation that paints last season in a negative light even though the intention wasn't necessarily to disrespect the legend. Sentiment overtakes analysis so any debate becomes pointless be it positive or negative. It's actually exhausting.

[Black Bull Nova]

Kenny doesn't need to be justified. At the same time, we don't need to put the current manager down in order to negate the poor league form the team showed after the League cup was won last season.

Agreed but some others need to read and remember

[Il Capitano]

Kenny got 68 points from his first 38 games, that after being thrown in at 24 hours notice (if you want to discount the Blackpool game on the basis of no preparation time that would have been 71) which was CL form for both those seasons, I wish people would not talk shite and re-write history.

What a bizarre argument to make. 68 points spread out over into two seasons... So what? Did one season end midway through? Did we qualify for the Champions league in either of those two seasons?

Oh yeah, we had Champions league form. Just not for long enough to actually get into the Champions league. Makes a whole bunch of fucking sense. Let's forget all those losses to midtable shite for the rest of the year we had to watch.

[Black Bull Nova]

What a bizarre argument to make. 68 points spread out over into two seasons... So what? Did one season end midway through? Did we qualify for the Champions league in either of those two seasons?

Oh yeah, we had Champions league form. Just not for long enough to actually get into the Champions league. Makes a whole bunch of fucking sense. Let's forget all those losses to midtable shite for the rest of the year we had to watch.

It was in response to yet another poster slagging off Kenny, what I was pointing out was that Kenny's first 38 games netted a good return and everyone is using, for comparison, the period after we had qualified for europe and the CL place was lost (ie after Arsenal) which mattered not a jot. We were 4pts off the CL in february 2012.

I know we lost a load of shite games but as I've said previously we also beat Chelsea (3x), Everton (3x), City (2x), United and Arsenal, it wasn't all bad you know.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

All true, I agree with most of this. But do you think that if Kenny badly wanted Adam, which he might have, Comolli would have signed him if Adam didn't have the passing / tackling / chance creating / whatever statistics? I don't think that during that time Kenny or any manager would have been afforded that privilege.

Anyway, my post was in response to a statement that Kenny said on TV that "it was down to him". Yes, he took the blame for a lot of things. 

It's all Comolli's fault, do you really believe that? You think Kenny had no say, he was the manager. If he says no I don't want this player Damien he isn't good enough go find another one then we wouldn't sign that player. As far as stats go I bet we actually scout players first before checking their stats. They were both to blame. People seem to be too scared to admit any sort of shortcoming of the man for fear it will damage his legendary status but it won't and anyone who sees him as anything less than great man because of a few bad signings will probably never get it anyway.

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

Thats what Brendan told us to expect, but it wasn't really the mentality of a winner was it? The reality is we should have done much better given the resources available to us, and to go from League cup winners and FA Cup finalists to having a nothing season is not good enough.

What resources were available to us though, half a season with Sterling, Suso and Jonjo and Suarez as our attack. Compare that to the previous season with Kuyt, Suarez, Maxi, Bellamy

[careful on these streets, I've heard stories]

I just created a topic wishing birthday for myself (today). they block it .

Imagine what would happen if everyone on RAWK decided to create a new topic on their birthday

[Passmaster Molby]

What resources were available to us though, half a season with Sterling, Suso and Jonjo and Suarez as our attack. Compare that to the previous season with Kuyt, Suarez, Maxi, Bellamy

Who decided to throw Carroll out on loan? Was it the club's heirachy or was it Brendan himself who decided to get rid of him? My guess is it was Rodgers who decided to get rid of him, and to do it BEFORE we had a replacement was a schoolboy error. We could of had Suarez, Carroll and Borini as attacking options which would have been no problem, but it was clear the decision had already been taken to shove Carroll out the door no matter what. For us to then moan about not having enough attacking options whilst our most expensive player is on loan elsewhere is mis-management of the highest order. We looked like fucking turkeys!

If Rodgers was fucked over by the board then I have every sympathy for him, and its not impossible because Ayre is a fucking clown, but I would have hoped Rodgers would have said get my new striker in before Andy leaves this club as we will be short of options. I wonder if we will ever know the truth about that whole shitstorm scenario at the end of the 2012 summer transfer window?

Suarez, Downing, Assaidi, Borini and Sterling isn't the best, but remember our midfield had Sahin as well and he should have been used a lot better than he was. He could easily use Gerrard off Suarez (something Rodgers himself talked about in Being Liverpool) and put Sahin alongside Lucas/Allen and Gerrards attacking talents would have helped to compensate for a lack of attacking options.