Author Topic: What after death?  (Read 33171 times)

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #120 on: July 31, 2007, 04:05:50 pm »
I worry a little at the multiple dimensions/realities things, they seem to me to just be artificial constructs to help visualise very difficult phenomena, there's quite a lot of evidence kicking around to support the 3 physical and 1 temporal dimensions we labour under.

1 Universe is quite enough for me, thanks, the closer you look at the mechanics of gravity, or the relationship between time and space, the more amazing it all is.


Here's a thought for you, if your body was squashed up so that all the space was removed from between the atoms and stuff, you'd be smaller than a grain of salt, so, since most of you is empty space, why doesnt your hand pass straight through the glass of beer (that is also mostly empty space)? and how come that glass can feel different to the beer it holds?  Wierd eh?

Artitificial constructs?

I'd personally say that our (very) limited senses more likely contruct artifical constructs so we can understand the world around us.

Have you never heard of M Theory, Superstring Theory or brane theory - relating to time, space and matter? Most of the calculations don't even work if you just have 3 dimensions plus the extra time dimension.

We already know that even the 'usual' dimensions that we see can be warped, altered and bent in extreme circumstances and even break when reaching a singularity.

Given that we can only perceive a tiny amount of space within our own planet and we haven't even explored that - never mind the billions of solar systems in our galaxy or even the billions of solar systems in the billions of other galaxies - and we're still talking about 'normal space' here - we haven't even begun looking at dark energy or dark matter or indeed branes or singularities or superstrings or universal models.

And even when we're past all that we still haven't got any sense or ability to form a construct to place the context of these possibilities into place.

And in answer to your beer questions - its due to weak and strong nuclear forces.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/forces/funfor.html
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 04:12:33 pm by Andy @ Allerton »
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline The Bill Hicks Appreciation Society

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #121 on: July 31, 2007, 04:09:03 pm »
What do you mean there's no silicon heaven? Where do all the calculators go?
Please take a look at my latest blog for theredmentv "Dispelling the Rodgers/Martinez myth" http://www.theredmentv.com/blog/p/263 All other blogs can be read at www.theredmentv.com/blog Let me know your thoughts

Offline kesey

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #122 on: July 31, 2007, 04:57:31 pm »
No matter what happens folks ........


We are the dance of the moon and sun.

We are the power in everyone.

We are the hope that wil never hide.

We are the turning of the tide.





Bom Bom Shiva Bola.           :wave


He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #123 on: July 31, 2007, 04:58:31 pm »
No matter what happens folks ........


We are the dance of the moon and sun.

We are the power in everyone.

We are the hope that wil never hide.

We are the turning of the tide.





Bom Bom Shiva Bola.           :wave




Ebola.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline kesey

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #124 on: July 31, 2007, 04:59:41 pm »
Ebola.

That's in your head not mine brother.         
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #125 on: July 31, 2007, 05:06:59 pm »
if people think we come from nothing and we go to nothing then they must think themselves as nothing and nothing really matters.

Get up and go to work? nahhh

Be bothered raising kids? nahh

fall in love, have relationships, experience stages of your life with people, places, seeing terrible things, seeing the wonderful - things that shape and change us and mold us in to the people we are.

if theres nothing at the end of it all why bother? Why are we here at all on this planet in a system so delicately balanced to support life.

I think a lot of the answers are all around us we just cant see them or refuse to see them as we are lost in our own little selfish world of me, me me.

Even before i came to christ - i wasnt dumb enough that i couldnt see i was designed, maybe being a designer helps this, but c'mon, our bodys are amazing, the things we can do, the intelligence we have, the capabilities, the way we can heal ourselves.

Random we are not. You chuck the ingriedients of a cake into an oven without mixing them properly and putting thought and intelligence into it and see what you get.

simple really. :)
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #126 on: July 31, 2007, 05:11:48 pm »
The idea of going to heaven  and seeing your family is nice, it's understandable why such an idea exists, but really the notion is absurd. We die, our bodies rot (or are cremated) we no longer have the eyes needed to see people, the legs needed to walk around or the voice boxes needed to speak to people.

Do we see our relatives as they were just before they die? (decrepit, on their death beds, unable to do anything) or for convenience sake are they back in the prime of our or their choosing?

Think it's much more important just to enjoy your time alive, and try to be a good person on Earth rather than having any daft expectations of what happens after death.

do you not feel something inside you? are you but a husk? Our individuality is evidence enough of this.
"If you're in the penalty area and don't know what to do with the ball, put it in the net and we'll discuss the options later."

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Offline kesey

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #127 on: July 31, 2007, 05:18:55 pm »
The idea of going to heaven  and seeing your family is nice, it's understandable why such an idea exists, but really the notion is absurd. We die, our bodies rot (or are cremated) we no longer have the eyes needed to see people, the legs needed to walk around or the voice boxes needed to speak to people.



If you want to believe that all you are is flesh and bones that you don't speak for me, myself or I.
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline SpenceUK1968

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #128 on: July 31, 2007, 05:34:01 pm »
Andy, I have heard of and read a bit about Brane's and stuff, and I appreciate what you're saying about our senses.

How come gravity only works properly in 3 dimensions? or that atomic nucleii are only stable in 3 dimensions?  These models are all we have, and in the absence of a new way of explaining time and space and gravity I'm staying way from multiple dimensions.

Somehow we try to see what isn't there and then try and construct a way of showing how the thing is there if only everything else was a little bit different.

There are some great minds out there who still argue the point so I can't see us sorting it all out. (Although there is a tiny chance that the world will one day be rocked by the RAWK Universal Space-Time theory). :D


Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #129 on: July 31, 2007, 05:59:07 pm »
Andy, I have heard of and read a bit about Brane's and stuff, and I appreciate what you're saying about our senses.

How come gravity only works properly in 3 dimensions? or that atomic nucleii are only stable in 3 dimensions?  These models are all we have, and in the absence of a new way of explaining time and space and gravity I'm staying way from multiple dimensions.

Somehow we try to see what isn't there and then try and construct a way of showing how the thing is there if only everything else was a little bit different.

There are some great minds out there who still argue the point so I can't see us sorting it all out. (Although there is a tiny chance that the world will one day be rocked by the RAWK Universal Space-Time theory). :D



If you want a great mind to debate with on this - then I'm the last person you should speak to! :P
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #130 on: July 31, 2007, 06:39:47 pm »
if people think we come from nothing and we go to nothing then they must think themselves as nothing and nothing really matters.

Get up and go to work? nahhh

Be bothered raising kids? nahh

fall in love, have relationships, experience stages of your life with people, places, seeing terrible things, seeing the wonderful - things that shape and change us and mold us in to the people we are.

if theres nothing at the end of it all why bother? Why are we here at all on this planet in a system so delicately balanced to support life.

I think a lot of the answers are all around us we just cant see them or refuse to see them as we are lost in our own little selfish world of me, me me.

Even before i came to christ - i wasnt dumb enough that i couldnt see i was designed, maybe being a designer helps this, but c'mon, our bodys are amazing, the things we can do, the intelligence we have, the capabilities, the way we can heal ourselves.

Random we are not. You chuck the ingredients of a cake into an oven without mixing them properly and putting thought and intelligence into it and see what you get.

simple really. :)

Of course you think that, Red Dwarf answers that question perfectly

What do you mean there's no silicon heaven? Where do all the calculators go?

So even if we are designed who says there is a heaven or an afterlife?

And why did you choose Christ?

Do you not feel it's arrogant to say this is right and everyone else is wrong, by following organised religion that is what you are doing surely?
Please take a look at my latest blog for theredmentv "Dispelling the Rodgers/Martinez myth" http://www.theredmentv.com/blog/p/263 All other blogs can be read at www.theredmentv.com/blog Let me know your thoughts

Offline champs2005

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #131 on: July 31, 2007, 07:20:33 pm »
Classic example of an argument from personal incredulity -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance


www.rationalresponders.com/




Rational responder eh? You like analysing people eh?

well, er, ANALYSE THIS



 :wanker

 :lmao

I'll believe, WHATEVER THE FUCK I WANT TO, OK?

 ;)

Off you go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

You'll probably be wanting to find some fancy arse definition for this post as well!

 
 ;D :lmao
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Offline America's Sweetheart

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #132 on: July 31, 2007, 07:37:12 pm »
Random we are not. You chuck the ingriedients of a cake into an oven without mixing them properly and putting thought and intelligence into it and see what you get.

You get a cake that no-one eats, and a recipe that gets thrown away and never repeated. And then you try again. And again. And again. If necessary you repeat the exercise over billions of years and across billions of solar systems and then eventually you come up with a really nice cake.

Simple, really.

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #133 on: July 31, 2007, 07:38:52 pm »
You get a cake that no-one eats, and a recipe that gets thrown away and never repeated. And then you try again. And again. And again. If necessary you repeat the exercise over billions of years and across billions of solar systems and then eventually you come up with a really nice cake.

Simple, really.

I wonder if Karl Pilkington would get that analogy over the monkey/typewriters one :)
Please take a look at my latest blog for theredmentv "Dispelling the Rodgers/Martinez myth" http://www.theredmentv.com/blog/p/263 All other blogs can be read at www.theredmentv.com/blog Let me know your thoughts

Offline sabbathfan

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #134 on: July 31, 2007, 08:23:17 pm »
I wonder if Karl Pilkington would get that analogy over the monkey/typewriters one :)

HAHA! Nice! Karl Pilkington is hilarious.

As far as the argument goes... Anyone who believes in the words they are given by an organised religion are delusional. How can Catholics seriously think their God is real and the God Muslims believe in is not. THEY ARE THE SAME GOD!
And lets be serious for a min. When it comes to the idea of God does it really need to be a divine creator? Why can't we believe that the power in this universe that is greater than ourselves is the universe? Does it have to be a supreme puppetmaster? No, of course it doesn't. Did God create the universe? No. God IS the universe!
There is probably no GOD. Stop worrying about it and LIVE your LIFE

Offline kesey

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #135 on: July 31, 2007, 08:49:01 pm »

And lets be serious for a min. When it comes to the idea of God does it really need to be a divine creator? Why can't we believe that the power in this universe that is greater than ourselves is the universe? Does it have to be a supreme puppetmaster? No, of course it doesn't. Did God create the universe? No. God IS the universe!




As far as the argument goes... Anyone who believes in the words they are given by an organised religion are delusional. How can Catholics seriously think their God is real and the God Muslims believe in is not. THEY ARE THE SAME GOD!



Only ego seperates brother.



We are the dance of the moon and sun.

We are the power in everyone.

We are the hope that will never hide.

We are the turning of the tide.




Like I've said before folks it's time to fasten our seatbelts as this transition has only just begun.


Awakening to zero point energy.

http://www.lightbalance.com/articles/awakening.htm


Choose Love.     :wave
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

Offline catinhat

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #136 on: July 31, 2007, 10:18:06 pm »
if people think we come from nothing and we go to nothing then they must think themselves as nothing and nothing really matters.

Get up and go to work? nahhh

Be bothered raising kids? nahh

fall in love, have relationships, experience stages of your life with people, places, seeing terrible things, seeing the wonderful - things that shape and change us and mold us in to the people we are.

if theres nothing at the end of it all why bother? Why are we here at all on this planet in a system so delicately balanced to support life.

I think a lot of the answers are all around us we just cant see them or refuse to see them as we are lost in our own little selfish world of me, me me.

Even before i came to christ - i wasnt dumb enough that i couldnt see i was designed, maybe being a designer helps this, but c'mon, our bodys are amazing, the things we can do, the intelligence we have, the capabilities, the way we can heal ourselves.

Random we are not. You chuck the ingriedients of a cake into an oven without mixing them properly and putting thought and intelligence into it and see what you get.

simple really. :)


do you not feel something inside you? are you but a husk? Our individuality is evidence enough of this.

I feel many things. Feeling and being alive are (mostly) wonderful things. The fact that I don't believe in an afterlife doesn't mean that everything in this life is pointless. Quite the opposite. Because I don't believe in an afterlife, I think everything in this life is even more important.

I don't believe I'm designed because I'm not dumb enough to dismiss millions of years worth of evolution that has lead us to this point.  I do not view our existence either as being from design (there is absolutely no evidence of this) nor from a random act of chance (something that god believers often think is the only alternative to design) .

I don't believe in Christ or the bible, because (among other things) I don't believe that children should be killed for disrespecting their parents, as specified in Leviticus [20:9] (the same Leviticus that some bible types quote to show how homosexuality is an abomination)

I'm a good person, I enjoy my life and treat others well. I do it out of personal choice rather than because I believe I will be rewarded in any afterlife. If somehow there is an afterlife where I'm sent to hell because despite being a good person, I didn't follow Christ, then so be it.

"The idea of a good society is something you do not need a religion and eternal punishment to buttress;
you need a religion if you are terrified of death."

- Gore Vidal

Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #137 on: July 31, 2007, 11:03:20 pm »
You get a cake that no-one eats, and a recipe that gets thrown away and never repeated. And then you try again. And again. And again. If necessary you repeat the exercise over billions of years and across billions of solar systems and then eventually you come up with a really nice cake.

Simple, really.

wow.

your not Doctor Who are you?
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Offline walshys_mullet

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #138 on: July 31, 2007, 11:13:24 pm »
I feel many things. Feeling and being alive are (mostly) wonderful things. The fact that I don't believe in an afterlife doesn't mean that everything in this life is pointless. Quite the opposite. Because I don't believe in an afterlife, I think everything in this life is even more important.

I don't believe I'm designed because I'm not dumb enough to dismiss millions of years worth of evolution that has lead us to this point.  I do not view our existence either as being from design (there is absolutely no evidence of this) nor from a random act of chance (something that god believers often think is the only alternative to design) .

I don't believe in Christ or the bible, because (among other things) I don't believe that children should be killed for disrespecting their parents, as specified in Leviticus [20:9] (the same Leviticus that some bible types quote to show how homosexuality is an abomination)

I'm a good person, I enjoy my life and treat others well. I do it out of personal choice rather than because I believe I will be rewarded in any afterlife. If somehow there is an afterlife where I'm sent to hell because despite being a good person, I didn't follow Christ, then so be it.



i value your opinion and honestly have nothing against other peoples beliefs, however, how do you know we've had billions of years of evolution? because the scientists told you so? If evidence is what you are after, i'd personally rather follow something more tangible and real as christ is and was when he was on this earth, witnessed by many and accounts written by many at the time and years later, many of whom died for their faith in him.

Lets be honest who would bother to make up and maintain something like the bible? it would be the biggest con of all time!

Faith is what keeps you because at the end of the day we cant go back and check, but those scientists, who lets face it, base everything on theory and guesswork when it comes to evolution, know bo diddly about billions of years ago.

I think the problem is "organised religion". that word "organised" is enough to drive people away and against. People dont like to be told what to do with their lives, thats the fundemental thing, we believe our lives to be ours and dont give a damn what anyone else says or thinks.
"If you're in the penalty area and don't know what to do with the ball, put it in the net and we'll discuss the options later."

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Offline KiNki

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #139 on: July 31, 2007, 11:27:55 pm »
If evidence is what you are after, i'd personally rather follow something more tangible and real as christ is and was when he was on this earth, witnessed by many and accounts written by many at the time and years later, many of whom died for their faith in him.

david koresh was tangible and many people died for him.

Lets be honest who would bother to make up and maintain something like the bible? it would be the biggest con of all time!

you said it - many people gained and continue to gain from the bible - king jim for one.

Faith is what keeps you because at the end of the day we cant go back and check, but those scientists, who lets face it, base everything on theory and guesswork when it comes to evolution, know bo diddly about billions of years ago.

i thought it was the otherway round and bible writers guesstimating their way thru the unkown while scientists try and base their findings on facts, maths and are open to debate and contradiction.

as bill(i think said) none of us treuely know whats after death - if theres a god - when the universe was created and if it will ever end.

some of us are open minded to all potential outcomes some are kept with faith.

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #140 on: July 31, 2007, 11:31:08 pm »
Lets be honest who would bother to make up and maintain something like the bible? it would be the biggest con of all time!

That'd be the same folks that picked and chose what went in it anyway
Please take a look at my latest blog for theredmentv "Dispelling the Rodgers/Martinez myth" http://www.theredmentv.com/blog/p/263 All other blogs can be read at www.theredmentv.com/blog Let me know your thoughts

Offline rakey_lfc

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #141 on: August 1, 2007, 12:14:44 am »
What after death....sleep?
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Offline The dude abides

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #142 on: August 1, 2007, 02:12:08 am »
What after death....sleep?
my cat loves the idea.

Offline catinhat

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #143 on: August 1, 2007, 02:37:25 am »
i value your opinion and honestly have nothing against other peoples beliefs, however, how do you know we've had billions of years of evolution? because the scientists told you so? If evidence is what you are after, i'd personally rather follow something more tangible and real as christ is and was when he was on this earth, witnessed by many and accounts written by many at the time and years later, many of whom died for their faith in him.

Lets be honest who would bother to make up and maintain something like the bible? it would be the biggest con of all time!

Faith is what keeps you because at the end of the day we cant go back and check, but those scientists, who lets face it, base everything on theory and guesswork when it comes to evolution, know bo diddly about billions of years ago.

I think the problem is "organised religion". that word "organised" is enough to drive people away and against. People dont like to be told what to do with their lives, thats the fundemental thing, we believe our lives to be ours and dont give a damn what anyone else says or thinks.

I actually said millions of years of evolution, but I take your point.

In terms of what we believe, what we accept as evidence etc, we all decide for ourselves. I believe in the general principles behind Darwin's theory of evolution. I believe the geologists and the other scientists when they talk about how old the earth is. Scientiest postulate theories for which they provide evidence. They do not put theories forward on the basis of guesswork alone. If you do not believe any of the evidence that contradicts the bible, then you may as well not believe any thing you see or hear (or alternatively you may as well believe in unicorns and Bertrand Russell's Celestial Teapot.

Your religion is a matter of faith, but it is certainly less evidence based and less tangible than the many pieces of scientific evidence that contract much of religion (not least how old the Earth is).

And historically speaking aside from a couple of highly disputed texts and one forgery, there are ZERO  accounts of Jesus until after anyone who knew Christ would already have been dead. The Romans were meticulous record keepers and yet there is no record of Jesus (and you might think that someone who -even alive - had followers and caused a stir, and then came back from the dead may make an impact at the time, and inspire record keepers or historians of the day to write about him.

Lets be honest who would bother to make up and maintain something like the bible? it would be the biggest con of all time!

The same kind of people that made up the Koran (also supposedly the word of God) and the Torah, and any number of other religions,  many of whom  take people's money and tell them what moral code to follow (which because of religious factions is often done on a pick and choose basis even within the religion). The same kind of people that in previous ages and in different parts of the world, had people worshipping  Baal, Thor, Apollo, Zeus and any number of other gods that have been consigned to the 'god scrap-pile' by Atheists and Theists alike.


I'm sure you are a decent person, and I don't want to cause offence, but for me, religion is indeed the biggest con of all time. And one of the most successful too in terms of getting people to hand over their money and their rationality.
"The idea of a good society is something you do not need a religion and eternal punishment to buttress;
you need a religion if you are terrified of death."

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Offline TheoRacle

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #144 on: August 1, 2007, 03:16:20 am »
Havent we had this debate before?

In essence those that believe do so in spite of evidence and are 100% certain no matter what you or I say - that's the definition of faith.

Those that don't believe have significant difficulty in distinguishing between the stories of Zahweh and Zeus or the toothfairy for that matter.

In 1000 years time people will be still having the same debate but we'll be discussing the merits of L Ron Hubbard as the founding father of the most popular ( and therefore only correct!) religion the solar system has ever known.


Some people just don't get it and never will. Let's just hope they don't take umbridge at what you and I think and have to say and don't start some fanatical heretic hunt again.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2007, 03:19:37 am by TheoRacle »

Offline Phil M

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #145 on: August 1, 2007, 03:47:50 am »

In 1000 years time people will be still having the same debate but we'll be discussing the merits of L Ron Hubbard as the founding father of the most popular ( and therefore only correct!) religion the solar system has ever known.

To what religion are you referring?
I hope you're not trying to champion the cause of that nutcase who invented Scientology.
« Last Edit: August 1, 2007, 03:50:16 am by Phil M »
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline TheoRacle

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #146 on: August 1, 2007, 03:58:00 am »
Sorry, I should have used a smiley to convey my sarcasm.  :wave

Allow me to ellaborate my point: it's all in the marketing.  Get a few 'significant' community members to, using your term, 'champion' your cause and hey presto you've got a religion that's apparently just as plausible to some as the many others on offer.  The only reason (in so far as I can see) why many have an issue with Scientology as opposed to Islam or Christianity for example is that it was only documented (read: 'made up') a few decades ago.  If however, the religion could be argued to have been followed for thousands of years, then wey hey - instant credibility! All those believers couldn't have been wrong surely!

Offline Phil M

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #147 on: August 1, 2007, 04:01:01 am »
Sorry, I should have used a smiley to convey my sarcasm.  :wave

Allow me to ellaborate my point: it's all in the marketing.  Get a few 'significant' community members to, using your term, 'champion' your cause and hey presto you've got a religion that's apparently just as plausible to some as the many others on offer.  The only reason (in so far as I can see) why many have an issue with Scientology as opposed to Islam or Christianity for example is that it was only documented (read: 'made up') a few decades ago.  If however, the religion could be argued to have been followed for thousands of years, then wey hey - instant credibility! All those believers couldn't have been wrong surely!

Ah-ha, my apologies then, I failed to see that in your post, and I'm glad to say that I concur with you on
the above.
:)
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline TheoRacle

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #148 on: August 1, 2007, 04:03:21 am »
Also would have thought my title might have given it away.  ;D

Offline Phil M

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #149 on: August 1, 2007, 04:06:39 am »
Also would have thought my title might have given it away.  ;D
On second look, yes it probably should have, but then it is 4am! ;D

It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline America's Sweetheart

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #150 on: August 1, 2007, 04:43:29 am »
i value your opinion and honestly have nothing against other peoples beliefs, however, how do you know we've had billions of years of evolution? because the scientists told you so? If evidence is what you are after, i'd personally rather follow something more tangible and real as christ is and was when he was on this earth, witnessed by many and accounts written by many at the time and years later, many of whom died for their faith in him.

Lets be honest who would bother to make up and maintain something like the bible? it would be the biggest con of all time!

Faith is what keeps you because at the end of the day we cant go back and check, but those scientists, who lets face it, base everything on theory and guesswork when it comes to evolution, know bo diddly about billions of years ago.

I think the problem is "organised religion". that word "organised" is enough to drive people away and against. People dont like to be told what to do with their lives, thats the fundemental thing, we believe our lives to be ours and dont give a damn what anyone else says or thinks.

Sorry, but I can't let this go. Since you are prepared to tell everyone who  believes in billions of years of evolution that there's no evidence to support it, then I want to see your evidence for the Resurrection. Do you have photographs? I want to see you back up your statements about "accounts written by many at the time and years later", because as far as I am aware, the four gospels were written long after the event and by people who had not witnessed anything in person.

Mark --> circa 70 AD
Matthew --> 70-110 AD (but later than Mark since it uses Mark as a source)
Luke --> 75-100 AD (but later than Mark since it uses Mark as a source)
John --> circa 100 AD

And again, as far as I am aware, the prime source for Mark (and therfore for Matthew and Luke) were the visions Paul had of Christ -- who he never encountered during his life. Ho. Hum.

And yes, it is all a con anyway. Consider all the elements of pagan religions that Christianity adopted in order to promote itself. Consider the fact that from 185 AD to 382 AD, the Catholic Church was carefully editing and re-editing its bible, denouncing texts that didn't fit with their view of the world -- most of which pre-dated your Gospels, and preparing to excommuniate and burn people who refused to toe their line. You would base your world view on the word of those people? Because unless you know different, that is your only source of information that suggests Christ was anything more than a preacher (or "prophet") and philisopher.

After all, this is the same Catholic Church that in the 17th Century tried Galileo for his heliocentric view of the solar system. You know what they said back then? That he couldn't be right, because it wasn't in the Bible; indeed, because the Bible said that the earth was at the centre of everything and couldn't be moved. Skip forward 400 years and while you would not, I hope, argue the geocentric position, you are still seriously arguing that there's no evidence for billions of years of evolution, from single cell organisms to mankind? Get over your ignorance.

While the Big Bang theory and the 15 Billion year age of the Universe cannot be conclusively proved, all the evidence available supports the hypothesis. So I'd say it's a damn sight more likely than some twaddle about changing water into wine. Or the theory that God put the dinosaur fossils there to test our faith.

And there is simply oodles of hard scientific evidence to put the age of the Earth at somewhere between 4.4 and 4.6 Billion years. Similarly, there is plenty of evidence for a history of evolution that spans roughly 4 Billion years and takes in lifeforms like single cells, bacteria, and Cro-Magnon man -- as opposed to the "evidence" of Genesis. And again, I'd much prefer to believe science, which is challenged and tested repeatedly, rather than the word of a long line of old men in dresses who claim to be "infallible". And that's the chain of evidence that you prefer to believe. Pah.

If you want to believe in Gods and Messiahs and so on, then please do. Just don't go burning anyone or invading the Holy Land. And please find a way to make your beliefs fit with what we know to be true. Perhaps your God lit the fuse for the Big Bang? Or maybe it was a Bigger God, who did it to create your God? Maybe that's how Gods reproduce, by Big Bangs. And please stop telling us we're wrong on the basis of your faith, because the "tangible and real" evidence for your faith isn't shit compared to the scientific evidence for evolution.

Offline catinhat

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #151 on: August 1, 2007, 05:28:55 am »
Havent we had this debate before?

In essence those that believe do so in spite of evidence and are 100% certain no matter what you or I say - that's the definition of faith.

Those that don't believe have significant difficulty in distinguishing between the stories of Zahweh and Zeus or the toothfairy for that matter.

In 1000 years time people will be still having the same debate but we'll be discussing the merits of L Ron Hubbard as the founding father of the most popular ( and therefore only correct!) religion the solar system has ever known.


Some people just don't get it and never will. Let's just hope they don't take umbridge at what you and I think and have to say and don't start some fanatical heretic hunt again.


I all too often fall into these debates despite acknowledging that we have indeed been here before.  Not necessarily me on this site, but me on other forums, and in the pub and anywhere else that people mention religion in a way that I sometimes just can't help myself but to respond... I still just find it amazing and depressing that these different flavours of religion still have such a hold over so many people...

But don't diss Scientology. It's the truth. I have evidence (I just can't remember where I put it - I think it's on one of my sky hooks being guarded by my hover goat)

As for America's Sweetheart  - your post made far too much sense. Shame on you.
"The idea of a good society is something you do not need a religion and eternal punishment to buttress;
you need a religion if you are terrified of death."

- Gore Vidal

Offline Zeppelin

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #152 on: August 1, 2007, 08:07:10 am »
Great post America's Sweetheart - you put it far better that I could have.

Evolution is now to all intents and purposes an accepted fact - there is not a single piece of evidence that contradicts it, and recent DNA research adds to the evidence.

I would seriously recommend Richard Dawkins' books to anyone who wants to know more, particularly 'The blind watchmaker' which answers the ludicrous claims of creationists and intelligent design, which is merely creationism in disguise.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #153 on: August 1, 2007, 08:22:54 am »
Great post America's Sweetheart - you put it far better that I could have.

Evolution is now to all intents and purposes an accepted fact - there is not a single piece of evidence that contradicts it, and recent DNA research adds to the evidence.

I would seriously recommend Richard Dawkins' books to anyone who wants to know more, particularly 'The blind watchmaker' which answers the ludicrous claims of creationists and intelligent design, which is merely creationism in disguise.

Have you seen the odds on evolution spontaneously forming an intelligent life form within the time specified?

I wouldn't bet in a Casino with those odds
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Zeppelin

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #154 on: August 1, 2007, 08:39:11 am »
Have you seen the odds on evolution spontaneously forming an intelligent life form within the time specified?

I wouldn't bet in a Casino with those odds

the so-called astronomical odds on evolution are a fallacy and are refuted  by any number of people - here are 2 I found in about 30 seconds on Google -

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/addendaB.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html#CB

Offline Grobbelrevell

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #155 on: August 1, 2007, 08:50:03 am »
Sorry, but I can't let this go. Since you are prepared to tell everyone who  believes in billions of years of evolution that there's no evidence to support it, then I want to see your evidence for the Resurrection. Do you have photographs? I want to see you back up your statements about "accounts written by many at the time and years later", because as far as I am aware, the four gospels were written long after the event and by people who had not witnessed anything in person.

Mark --> circa 70 AD
Matthew --> 70-110 AD (but later than Mark since it uses Mark as a source)
Luke --> 75-100 AD (but later than Mark since it uses Mark as a source)
John --> circa 100 AD

And again, as far as I am aware, the prime source for Mark (and therfore for Matthew and Luke) were the visions Paul had of Christ -- who he never encountered during his life. Ho. Hum.

And yes, it is all a con anyway. Consider all the elements of pagan religions that Christianity adopted in order to promote itself. Consider the fact that from 185 AD to 382 AD, the Catholic Church was carefully editing and re-editing its bible, denouncing texts that didn't fit with their view of the world -- most of which pre-dated your Gospels, and preparing to excommuniate and burn people who refused to toe their line. You would base your world view on the word of those people? Because unless you know different, that is your only source of information that suggests Christ was anything more than a preacher (or "prophet") and philisopher.

After all, this is the same Catholic Church that in the 17th Century tried Galileo for his heliocentric view of the solar system. You know what they said back then? That he couldn't be right, because it wasn't in the Bible; indeed, because the Bible said that the earth was at the centre of everything and couldn't be moved. Skip forward 400 years and while you would not, I hope, argue the geocentric position, you are still seriously arguing that there's no evidence for billions of years of evolution, from single cell organisms to mankind? Get over your ignorance.

While the Big Bang theory and the 15 Billion year age of the Universe cannot be conclusively proved, all the evidence available supports the hypothesis. So I'd say it's a damn sight more likely than some twaddle about changing water into wine. Or the theory that God put the dinosaur fossils there to test our faith.

And there is simply oodles of hard scientific evidence to put the age of the Earth at somewhere between 4.4 and 4.6 Billion years. Similarly, there is plenty of evidence for a history of evolution that spans roughly 4 Billion years and takes in lifeforms like single cells, bacteria, and Cro-Magnon man -- as opposed to the "evidence" of Genesis. And again, I'd much prefer to believe science, which is challenged and tested repeatedly, rather than the word of a long line of old men in dresses who claim to be "infallible". And that's the chain of evidence that you prefer to believe. Pah.

If you want to believe in Gods and Messiahs and so on, then please do. Just don't go burning anyone or invading the Holy Land. And please find a way to make your beliefs fit with what we know to be true. Perhaps your God lit the fuse for the Big Bang? Or maybe it was a Bigger God, who did it to create your God? Maybe that's how Gods reproduce, by Big Bangs. And please stop telling us we're wrong on the basis of your faith, because the "tangible and real" evidence for your faith isn't shit compared to the scientific evidence for evolution.
:wellin

Cracking post that. One of the best ive read in a long time. Puts all the points accross that i would have - just better than i would have!

Must say though. I dont have any problem at all with religion and what people choose to believe, as long as people don't make a conscious effort to try and push these beliefs on other people. I for one don't believe in any of the various religions in general. As i have said they are, in my opinion, outdated, and from a time when people did not understand a lot of what we understand now and were a way of explaining the unexplained. They have also changed tacts far too often to be plausible in my opinion. When there is some real evidence that backs up these theories of religion, maybe i will change my view. Somehow though, i doubt that.
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Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #156 on: August 1, 2007, 08:51:22 am »
:wellin

Cracking post that. One of the best ive read in a long time. Puts all the points accross that i would have - just better than i would have!

Must say though. I dont have any problem at all with religion and what people choose to believe, as long as people don't make a conscious effort to try and push these beliefs on other people. I for one don't believe in any of the various religions in general. As i have said they are, in my opinion, outdated, and from a time when people did not understand a lot of what we understand now and were a way of explaining the unexplained. They have also changed tacts far too often to be plausible in my opinion. When there is some real evidence that backs up these theories of religion, maybe i will change my view. Somehow though, i doubt that.

Proof?

O..K..

Religeon tends to work on faith.
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Andy @ Allerton!

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #157 on: August 1, 2007, 08:52:26 am »
the so-called astronomical odds on evolution are a fallacy and are refuted  by any number of people - here are 2 I found in about 30 seconds on Google -

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/addendaB.html

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/list.html#CB

Yeah I'm sure I couldn't find 2 to contradict those in 30 seconds.

If you've got something to say - why not say that - there are billions of sites on the Internet - do you think they are all factual and accurate?
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.

Offline Zeppelin

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #158 on: August 1, 2007, 08:58:40 am »
Yeah I'm sure I couldn't find 2 to contradict those in 30 seconds.

If you've got something to say - why not say that - there are billions of sites on the Internet - do you think they are all factual and accurate?

Of course not - you pulled a statement out of nowhere, referring to statistical odds - I've done the same thing in refuting it - I quoted those sites at random as an example of the large amount of evidence to back up what I was saying. I'm not a mathematician and couldn't begin to explain such workings out myself - I am happy to accept what the people who do understand such things say.. that there is no great statistical anomaly in the evolutionary theory

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Re: What after death?
« Reply #159 on: August 1, 2007, 09:02:53 am »
Of course not - you pulled a statement out of nowhere, referring to statistical odds - I've done the same thing in refuting it - I quoted those sites at random as an example of the large amount of evidence to back up what I was saying. I'm not a mathematician and couldn't begin to explain such workings out myself - I am happy to accept what the people who do understand such things say.. that there is no great statistical anomaly in the evolutionary theory

Why don't you select a piece and then air your views on it?

Here is a site about Juggling Monkeys to illustrate a point.

http://www.uglychristmaslights.com/2005_collection/juggling_monkeys.html
Quote from: tubby on Today at 12:45:53 pm

They both went in high, that's factually correct, both tried to play the ball at height.  Doku with his foot, Mac Allister with his chest.