Author Topic: George Best - on a par with Messi?  (Read 10039 times)

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2021, 12:41:20 am »
Saw him few times in the flesh, truly outstanding player,  certainly could be mentioned in the Maradona, Messi conversation, but for me Maradona was the king, put up with the brutality Best was subjected to that Messi wasn't, but it's so subjective and difficult to compare players, especially over different eras and positions and of course Best's potential was unfilled as he retired early because of alcoholism but fantastic player and surprisingly likeable, mind you I liked Denis Law out of their team as well, far too magnanimous as a young kid had to wait till 12 before I started going around for the Manc coaches ;D
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 12:46:48 am by The 92A »
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Offline MonsLibpool

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2021, 03:03:26 am »
Saw him few times in the flesh, truly outstanding player,  certainly could be mentioned in the Maradona, Messi conversation, but for me Maradona was the king, put up with the brutality Best was subjected to that Messi wasn't, but it's so subjective and difficult to compare players, especially over different eras and positions and of course Best's potential was unfilled as he retired early because of alcoholism but fantastic player and surprisingly likeable, mind you I liked Denis Law out of their team as well, far too magnanimous as a young kid had to wait till 12 before I started going around for the Manc coaches ;D
Maradona is better than Messi imo. He'd be far better in today's games with better officiating, better support system, lighter balls and better teammates(No bosman and foreigner rules). I get using Messi's longetivity as an argument but would he be able to take the same potentially career-ending tackles Maradona regularly took and play for as long as he has?

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2021, 08:00:38 am »
I have seen a video of Messi as a kid and the other kids were sticking in the same kinds of tackles that Best was riding and he just kept going, Ramos has tried to cripple him multiple times and Messi still went at him, so I do think Messi would have done well in that age, Ronaldo would be fucking crying in a corner. Not sure how Messi would cope wearing the boots of the day and the weight of the balls. When you see a modern player swerve a ball, you know the ball is helping a lot, when you look at players from that age and what they did with the things, unless you've kicked a ball from those days, you'll never get the difference.

I dread to think how a 1960's George Best would have been in this day and age with all the money.
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #43 on: September 21, 2021, 10:59:58 am »
What an amazing video. And you're right Timbo. There's stuff in there I certainly haven't seen before. I wouldn't have thought that possible until I saw the video.

George is the greatest British player of all time. I don't think any sane person would question that. I believe he's also on the level with Pele, Maradona and Cruyff. What he lacked of course was an international tournament to showcase his skills. Those three had 62, 70 (Pele), 74 (Cruyff) and 86 (Maradona). But Best played in a fearsome league against some top class teams in a way perhaps the others didn't (bar three intense years in Serie-A for Maradona at Napoli). In some ways it was a golden age of English football (with us, Man United, Everton, Man City, Leeds and Arsenal leading the way). And of course Best excelled in European competition too. 

The video is faithful to his skills. The extraordinary balance, the two-footedness of his dribbling, the cheek and audacity, the speed (of course), the vision, the imagination, the courage and an ice-cold composure in the box (while defenders are flinging themselves all over the place). He was often too greedy I suppose, a little drunk on his own sublime skills, but so was Maradona. It's a small price. And in any case 'greed' on a football pitch can be misunderstood. I love it in the video where Law throws his hands up in disgust at not being fed a simple square pass by Best. And yet Best's chosen alternative (a back heel which came to nothing because a teammate failed to read it) was absolutely the right option. The thing was sitting on a plate for Kidd (?) in a way it wouldn't have been for Law. In fact the pass is so good that the ball sits alone on the penalty spot for about five minutes before anyone has read it. 

I saw him play in the flesh three times (all against Huddersfield Town) in 1970-72. He must have put an extra 20,000 on the gate at Leeds Road. At the height of his powers, but about to begin a precipitous decline. My dad was a Finney man, as loyal to the idea of Tom Finney as an extravagantly skilled working-man as he was to the notion of Finney as a brilliant footballer. But, despite George's long hair and his 'rock n roll' style, Dad adored Best too. In fact he raved about him and also put him on a level with Pele. I hated it when he didn't agree with me, a few years later, that Kevin Keegan was from same pantheon (he was right).

But....to answer your question Timbo. Messi is a tad better. Messi is the greatest of all time. Many people see that right now of course. But we'll all see it I think when Messi finally retires and a patina of nostalgia begins to coat him.

Not to take anything away from George Best though. Brilliant.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 11:05:09 am by Yorkykopite »
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #44 on: September 21, 2021, 11:24:39 am »
I have seen a video of Messi as a kid and the other kids were sticking in the same kinds of tackles that Best was riding and he just kept going, Ramos has tried to cripple him multiple times and Messi still went at him, so I do think Messi would have done well in that age, Ronaldo would be fucking crying in a corner. Not sure how Messi would cope wearing the boots of the day and the weight of the balls. When you see a modern player swerve a ball, you know the ball is helping a lot, when you look at players from that age and what they did with the things, unless you've kicked a ball from those days, you'll never get the difference.

I dread to think how a 1960's George Best would have been in this day and age with all the money.

I agree with the jist of your post. I really think Best is one of the greatest pure wingers in the game along with Garrincha, but by the looks of it, not many here have watched Messi that much in La Liga. Players tried to hack him every week, the way he anticipated challenges and rode them was elite level. It's not just Ramos or Atletico. Teams like Espanyol, Levante and quite frankly most of the league had tried to hack him game after game, they just failed to do so. He just dribbled through them because, he was ahead in his mind what the defender was going to do and always seemed to evade challenges. Messi has been an elite goalscorer, dribbler and playmaker - a combo rarely seen in football, the only other player who was similar in being elite in all three of those was Pele from what I've seen of him. Maradona was an elite dribbler and playmaker, but he wasn't an elite goalscorer. Messi>Maradona>Best.

Coming to the topic, I've not seen Best in flesh, but I've seen a number of his games back and he must be one of the greatest ever players to have played in the English League. Slightly controversial maybe, I do think that Best was better than King Kenny, but then they were skilled in different ways.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 11:27:20 am by PoetryInMotion »

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #45 on: September 21, 2021, 01:54:18 pm »
I agree with the jist of your post. I really think Best is one of the greatest pure wingers in the game along with Garrincha, but by the looks of it, not many here have watched Messi that much in La Liga. Players tried to hack him every week, the way he anticipated challenges and rode them was elite level. It's not just Ramos or Atletico. Teams like Espanyol, Levante and quite frankly most of the league had tried to hack him game after game, they just failed to do so. He just dribbled through them because, he was ahead in his mind what the defender was going to do and always seemed to evade challenges. Messi has been an elite goalscorer, dribbler and playmaker - a combo rarely seen in football, the only other player who was similar in being elite in all three of those was Pele from what I've seen of him. Maradona was an elite dribbler and playmaker, but he wasn't an elite goalscorer. Messi>Maradona>Best.

Coming to the topic, I've not seen Best in flesh, but I've seen a number of his games back and he must be one of the greatest ever players to have played in the English League. Slightly controversial maybe, I do think that Best was better than King Kenny, but then they were skilled in different ways.
You can't compare them to what Maradona used to endure. Look at the number of brutal tackles in this video:

https://youtu.be/iqzXw3fygBg

In just 1 game!

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #46 on: September 21, 2021, 03:02:20 pm »
Georgie Best - my favourite player ever. And I say that as someone who is as fervent a Red as any and fucking hate anything Manc. Except Bestie of course. Anyroad, just come across the most complete compilation of Bestie at his unique best (thank you Filler lad).

Sure Messi’s career and honours dwarfs Bestie’s whose top flight career was cut harrowingly short at the prime age of 26/27 by the booze. Yet his top flight career still spanned a good ten years and pound for pound I’m not sure if any attacking player even Messi can outstrip what’s on this compilation. Match it? Sure. That’s inevitable with Messi’s unrivalled pantheon of everything he’s done including very likely every fart. But eclipse it skill for skill? Hmm. Not sure. Then again I am a Best disciple and I’m no Messi afficianado. So do put me right if I’m just clinging to my nostalgia. But not sure how you’ll sway me after my drooling over the following montage.

https://youtu.be/ZuOkQYayFUI

 :)

What a fantastic video...  Georgie Best makes my soul jump, this kind of instinctual dribbling, evasion from exasperated and tormented defenders, and the clinical accuracy is such a rare combination.

Its mercurial, and levitating.  Al, I am a bit like you about Manctown, but I see Bestie as the eponymous magical immigrant savior coming from Northern Ireland to burst onto the English scene.  Whether it is Zidane (French Algeria), or Gullit/Rijkaard (Suriname roots) or John Barnes (Jamaican roots), I feel like Bestie changed the game for the better.  In similar ways to Di Stefano or Eusebio, but introduced a whole other level of football intelligence and guile.

Here's to you Al, what a great 18 minutes of football watching pleasure!
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #47 on: September 21, 2021, 03:39:22 pm »
You can't compare them to what Maradona used to endure. Look at the number of brutal tackles in this video:

https://youtu.be/iqzXw3fygBg

In just 1 game!
he's right, you've obviously not watched him enough. I probably watched every Barcelona game for a 10 year period and numerous players have tried to break his legs, starting from his first el clasico with Emerson nearly breaking his ankle to Amorbieta nearly blinding him and Mark Van Bommel elbowing him (as Mark Van Bommel does :D), if you watched the 5-0 game vs Mourinho's Real Madrid game back, you could tell he was specifically targetted. It's a myth there's not horrible tackles now, the difference is the physique of the players is improved, some are just too quick to be caught. I'm sure there's a youtube compilation somewhere of Ramos on Messi.

That's also one of the many reasons why George Best was so good, he was so quick and instinctively avoided those ridiculous challenges.
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #48 on: September 21, 2021, 03:41:34 pm »
Great compilation, videos like that are one of the reasons I love football.

Never got to see Best play but from everything i've seen and heard he was an exceptional talent. Its so fascinating watching football from this era too, some of the things players could do is mindblowing.

One thing I do wonder... why is how horrendous some of the defending is never mentioned? You have things that made the game a lot harder mentioned to elevate how impressive things are but there's never any balance in mentioning how bad some things were. You show someones best bits now and the defending is ALWAYS mentioned

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #49 on: September 21, 2021, 04:37:25 pm »
he's right, you've obviously not watched him enough. I probably watched every Barcelona game for a 10 year period and numerous players have tried to break his legs, starting from his first el clasico with Emerson nearly breaking his ankle to Amorbieta nearly blinding him and Mark Van Bommel elbowing him (as Mark Van Bommel does :D), if you watched the 5-0 game vs Mourinho's Real Madrid game back, you could tell he was specifically targetted. It's a myth there's not horrible tackles now, the difference is the physique of the players is improved, some are just too quick to be caught. I'm sure there's a youtube compilation somewhere of Ramos on Messi.

That's also one of the many reasons why George Best was so good, he was so quick and instinctively avoided those ridiculous challenges.
Refs let a lot more go during Maradona's time mate. Imagine how good he'd be today. Messi would be worse if he played in his era.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #50 on: September 21, 2021, 04:53:12 pm »
Refs let a lot more go during Maradona's time mate. Imagine how good he'd be today. Messi would be worse if he played in his era.

Nah, this is just speculation. You never know. Messi could very well have evaded challenges in that era considering how quick in mind he has been over the years. Don't be fooled by the current version of Messi or even the one that played us in the CL. That's not his peak.

But what is clear is that Maradona would never have become the elite goalscorer that Messi has been, whereas Messi is as good or close to Maradona in terms of dribbling and playmaking. As I said, only Pele was elite in all of those three and even he wasn't as elegant as Messi. This is not recency bias, I've researched these players. In fact, out of all these players, my favourites are Cruyff, Garrincha, Beckenbauer and Romario.


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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #51 on: September 21, 2021, 04:57:58 pm »
he's right, you've obviously not watched him enough. I probably watched every Barcelona game for a 10 year period and numerous players have tried to break his legs, starting from his first el clasico with Emerson nearly breaking his ankle to Amorbieta nearly blinding him and Mark Van Bommel elbowing him (as Mark Van Bommel does :D), if you watched the 5-0 game vs Mourinho's Real Madrid game back, you could tell he was specifically targetted. It's a myth there's not horrible tackles now, the difference is the physique of the players is improved, some are just too quick to be caught. I'm sure there's a youtube compilation somewhere of Ramos on Messi.

That's also one of the many reasons why George Best was so good, he was so quick and instinctively avoided those ridiculous challenges.

For all the talks of physicality in Premier League, La Liga then had some of the nastiest players around.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #52 on: September 21, 2021, 05:02:50 pm »
Messi would be worse if he played in his era.

Messi has had the shit kicked out of him too. This is just Real Madrid. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui95kCwhPxY

In George Best's day you sort of knew where the dangerous tackles might come from. Chopper Harris, Norman Hunter, Johnny Giles, anyone who played for Atletico Madrid. Today, many of those fouls do indeed bring yellow and red cards - and that's good because it means the likes of Sergio Ramos have only one shot at breaking your leg and then they're off. But the fouls (and the intimidation) do still happen, as you can see in the video above. And now they come from defenders who reach speeds that Chopper Harris could never match. If you're Lionel Messi the dirty stuff might even come from the likes of Alonso and Modric - as the video shows.
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #53 on: September 21, 2021, 05:27:25 pm »


In George Best's day you sort of knew where the dangerous tackles might come from. Chopper Harris, Norman Hunter, Johnny Giles, anyone who played for Atletico Madrid.

Tommy... ;)
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #54 on: September 21, 2021, 05:36:09 pm »
Nah, this is just speculation. You never know. Messi could very well have evaded challenges in that era considering how quick in mind he has been over the years. Don't be fooled by the current version of Messi or even the one that played us in the CL. That's not his peak.

But what is clear is that Maradona would never have become the elite goalscorer that Messi has been, whereas Messi is as good or close to Maradona in terms of dribbling and playmaking. As I said, only Pele was elite in all of those three and even he wasn't as elegant as Messi. This is not recency bias, I've researched these players. In fact, out of all these players, my favourites are Cruyff, Garrincha, Beckenbauer and Romario.
Fair enough.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #55 on: September 21, 2021, 06:12:59 pm »
Tommy... ;)

Well of course. But this is Timbo's thread and I didn't think it was appropriate to include Tommy Smith in such an agricultural list (although Giles like Smith could obviously play a bit too).
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #56 on: September 21, 2021, 07:25:43 pm »
I'm lucky enough to have seen him play in the flesh.

Albeit in a testimonial were he played for Wrexham, was still a pleasure to watch though and he was class.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #57 on: September 21, 2021, 07:33:03 pm »
I still think Maradona shades Messi, of course any great player gets used to being kicked but you can't compare todays fouls with the regular brutality of the past or the agricultural, mud furrowed fields that skilful player produced their beauty on, I recently watched a replay of the 1968 European Cup final and the thing that struck me the most was that Best and Eusebio were both kicked off the park from the first minute to the end, Stiles should have been sent of a few times, that was normality it wasn't just your Norman Hunters, every team had their thugs, off the top of my head I remember the likes of Terry Paine for Southampton or Dave McKay for Derby County. Brutes in every sense of the word, every game Best would risk his limbs with his outrageous skill and ability to make good defenders look like donkeys


Conversely, I had a break from going the match for 15 years in the 80's and when I went back to Anfield the first thing I noticed was how fast the game had become, it was on another level entirely , also the skill levels had improved to a different level, journeymen footballers were controlling 30 yard passes hit with force as a matter of course all these things make it impossible to compare with accuracy, I've come to the conclusion that it's enough to be outstanding for your time, to be ahead of the curve, to be an innovator to show a generation what is possible and to produce moments of beauty that live in peoples minds beyond your time on the pitch. Best could do all these things and so could Maradona and Messi. Don't even get me started on comparing positions, how do you compare player like Beckenbauer and Van Dyke with creative forwards?
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #58 on: September 22, 2021, 01:18:12 am »
So glad I started this thread. The depth and span of footy insight so far is almost as breathtaking as Bestie. Love reading the passion and well reasoned perspectives of the likes of Albie, York’s, Trend and others too. True bona fide footy fans all. Just Wonderful. Also nice to see a shout for the Kaiser. Okay not an attacker like the others but grace and majesty on the ball personified.

 :)

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #59 on: September 22, 2021, 02:47:46 am »
So glad I started this thread. The depth and span of footy insight so far is almost as breathtaking as Bestie. Love reading the passion and well reasoned perspectives of the likes of Albie, York’s, Trend and others too. True bona fide footy fans all. Just Wonderful. Also nice to see a shout for the Kaiser. Okay not an attacker like the others but grace and majesty on the ball personified.

 :)

Oh, this is such a great thread, Timbo. Lot's of insightful discussions. As for Der Kaiser, he was unparalleled in bringing the ball out from deep.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2021, 03:18:22 am »

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2021, 08:59:28 am »
So glad I started this thread. The depth and span of footy insight so far is almost as breathtaking as Bestie. Love reading the passion and well reasoned perspectives of the likes of Albie, York’s, Trend and others too. True bona fide footy fans all. Just Wonderful. Also nice to see a shout for the Kaiser. Okay not an attacker like the others but grace and majesty on the ball personified.

 :)

I'm glad someone mentioned Beckenbauer. When I was a lad, mid 70s, the 3 greats, or so I read or was told were Pele, Cruyff and Beckenbauer. Perhaps I heard it from a teacher, or read it in Shoot but it always stuck with me. I know he was a different type of player but he rarely gets a mention these days. I think a lot of a persons love of certain players comes mainly from their youth and perhaps even what position they play in their team. My mate was obsessed with Ruud Krol. I loved Zico and Cruyff when it came to non reds.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2021, 12:41:58 pm »
I think there's definitely been a bit of a shift during my lifetime about how he's been perceived. When I was a kid I'm pretty sure it was 'one of Pele, Best and Maradona' as the greatest player ever, and over the last 20 or so years thats changed to the point that you rarely hear him even mentioned.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2021, 01:28:52 pm »
I think there's definitely been a bit of a shift during my lifetime about how he's been perceived. When I was a kid I'm pretty sure it was 'one of Pele, Best and Maradona' as the greatest player ever, and over the last 20 or so years thats changed to the point that you rarely hear him even mentioned.

That's a good point - might be due to a few factors

1.  He left the media center of UK
2.  The NASL is seen as an old age home for stars back then in the UK
3.  The entire media sensation of building up new stars (80s, 90's, 00's, 10s and now).
4.  His descending into alcoholism, health concerns, and away from the game
5.  The modern game changed - more athletic, the gifts of Bestie could get overlooked unless you were specifically looking for dribbling presarios, pissed off defenders sliding in dirt or a nice well placed shot.
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2021, 01:37:33 pm »
I think there's definitely been a bit of a shift during my lifetime about how he's been perceived. When I was a kid I'm pretty sure it was 'one of Pele, Best and Maradona' as the greatest player ever, and over the last 20 or so years thats changed to the point that you rarely hear him even mentioned.
Yeah, but a couple of years ago Beckham would have been in there too?!

I saw him a few times but I can't actually see what he did that Giggs didn't do year in year out seemingly forever, but one looked like a Beatle and the other looked like a gargoyle (plus one was a nice bloke and the other a prick). Also, I'm pretty sure at the time it was felt that he didn't relish the physical challenges at all and went missing in those kind of games.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2021, 02:28:54 pm »
You often wonder how Best or maradona or pele would have thrived in the last 20 years?  Maradona and Best were outrageous talents and lifted teams to other levels. Pele was the top dog of a team of top dogs. I reckon if the former 2 had been playing nowadays they would wipe the floor with Ronald or Messi as I just think they had more in them, and that’s no disrespect to messi or Ronaldo

so hard when comparing eras - you balance the level of fitness required in today's football against the shite pitches and animal tackles of the past, and that's just the start of it (don't underestimate how rule changes have favoured goal scoring, can't back pass to the keeper has had a huge impact on how teams can and do get caught in possession cos they can't simply pass it back safely, changing whole mindsets on how the ball is moved through the pitch, cos we know getting caught in possession is the most likely scenario for conceeding)

i know for sure messi and the other guy aren't scoring at the rate they have in the days of Best, Pele and Maradonna -  pitches alone would make carrying the ball so much more difficult (and more draining on fitness) and they're getting cut in half on a regular basis with no cards being brandished, so repeat and rinse

and im sure the level of fitness required from Best etc will be much higher consistently than it was back in their day (i think pele would be fine, probably) and this is an issue for Best and Maradonna, cos you have to throw in drug tests etc as well - you might not like stuff like that in a 'purely football' discussion but it's part of it, as are the pitches and tackles of yesteryear, so in short, Best definitely would suffer fitness wise in the modern game and probably Maradonna's habits would get him banned (and if he's not on the coke on game day, fitness would be an issue at some point)

FWIW, i've said before on RAWK, messi (who i consider the best player of the modern era) isn't as good as maradonna or pele imo - i rate those two the best ever players i've seen, now messi has done something international, for the fanboys that has elevated messi to best ever, to which my reply is go fuck yourself  ;D and educate yourself while you're there and look what greatness those other two players could elevate teams to (esp maradonna, having played in some pretty average national sides)

Best was a wonderful talent and player i loved to watch (tho Law was my fav manc player, whether red or blue, just loved the guy) but he wasn't good enough for long enough, tho if we were talking just pure football skills, i'd put him up there with anyone, a true genius in that regard

as a side point, i think something that gets overlooked when talking about the great players of yesteryear among all the talk of strength, toughness, skills, talent etc is football brain. the three mentioned in the quote had phenomenal football brains, that's a huge factor in their greatness (one reason for me why kenny is the most Best-like player we ever had, i dont look at our more out and out dribblers as i noticed mentioned in the thread, i look at the talent level and football brain as well as style of play). and on that point you can throw in players like The Kaiser and Cruyff - wonderful players working on another level to most of their peers, in part, due to their football brain

he's right, you've obviously not watched him enough. I probably watched every Barcelona game for a 10 year period and numerous players have tried to break his legs, starting from his first el clasico with Emerson nearly breaking his ankle to Amorbieta nearly blinding him and Mark Van Bommel elbowing him (as Mark Van Bommel does :D), if you watched the 5-0 game vs Mourinho's Real Madrid game back, you could tell he was specifically targetted. It's a myth there's not horrible tackles now, the difference is the physique of the players is improved, some are just too quick to be caught. I'm sure there's a youtube compilation somewhere of Ramos on Messi.

That's also one of the many reasons why George Best was so good, he was so quick and instinctively avoided those ridiculous challenges.

tho i disagree with the overall point you're agreeing with from a previous post (you really can't compare eras in terms of brutality of challenge, it was just a different game back then, players weren't even carded for career enders more often than not) that game against Mourinho's Madrid was kinda like that, it was disgusting, not only was he clearly targetted under orders but i believe specifically targetted at his achilles, cos early on there's three clear really painful hacks at his achilles in short succession - there was clear intention to injure messi out of the game and the ref was slow on reacting to it
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 03:13:54 pm by Armand9 »
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2021, 02:57:08 pm »
Yeah, but a couple of years ago Beckham would have been in there too?!

I saw him a few times but I can't actually see what he did that Giggs didn't do year in year out seemingly forever, but one looked like a Beatle and the other looked like a gargoyle (plus one was a nice bloke and the other a prick). Also, I'm pretty sure at the time it was felt that he didn't relish the physical challenges at all and went missing in those kind of games.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2021, 03:09:37 pm »
On a par with John Barnes, nowhere near Messi.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2021, 04:00:32 pm »
Ha ha. I'm a comin' for yer Doc.

nah I know you're just pulling me pud cos it's just so absurd a notion......Aren't yer?  :o ;D


I'm not. I know I'm in a minority of one. In those days not only did every team have a Setters, Mackay,  Smith, Hunter etc, but they all seemed to have a Marsh, Thommo, Gray, Cooke etc, and no doubt Best was the best of that bunch. But everyone got carried away with it because of the fifth Beatle element. For me Charlton and Law left me with more memories.
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2021, 04:23:58 pm »
Yeah, but a couple of years ago Beckham would have been in there too?!

I saw him a few times but I can't actually see what he did that Giggs didn't do year in year out seemingly forever, but one looked like a Beatle and the other looked like a gargoyle (plus one was a nice bloke and the other a prick). Also, I'm pretty sure at the time it was felt that he didn't relish the physical challenges at all and went missing in those kind of games.

*Runs for cover*

Would it be mischievous to throw in the possibility of the Manchester based press wank-fest over the said football "Beatle" may have created a bit of rose tinted bias in some folks eyes?

Let's get one thing straight: he was a great footballer. But one of the elite few? To be even talked of in that rarefied air, nothing can be left to chance or speculation. Far too many people ignore the fact that from the age of 25, Best was washed up, finished as a footballer, but perhaps some people are too quick to fill in the gaps and assume somehow that he had a full career. It is dangerous to extrapolate early success and assume that six or eight years of similar is going to follow. That is totally unfair on the people who have actually looked after themselves for whole of their careers, and delivered every single year. Being a bit of a swashbuckler and a good-looking fella has helped the image of GB the footballer no end.

From the age of 20 to 25, Best was up there with the best of his peers. That's enough.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2021, 04:25:40 pm »
Would it be mischievous to throw in the possibility of the Manchester based press wank-fest over the said football "Beatle" may have created a bit of rose tinted bias in some folks eyes?

Let's get one thing straight: he was a great footballer. But one of the elite few? To be even talked of in that rarefied air, nothing can be left to chance or speculation. Far too many people ignore the fact that from the age of 25, Best was washed up, finished as a footballer, but perhaps some people are too quick to fill in the gaps and assume somehow that he had a full career. It is dangerous to extrapolate early success and assume that six or eight years of similar is going to follow. That is totally unfair on the people who have actually looked after themselves for whole of their careers, and delivered every single year. Being a bit of a swashbuckler and a good-looking fella has helped the image of GB the footballer no end.

From the age of 20 to 25, Best was up there with the best of his peers. That's enough.

Well said

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2021, 04:37:37 pm »
On a par with John Barnes, nowhere near Messi.

He had a better goals ratio than Barnes in his prime (44% to 37%) so I guess you would have to rate him slightly higher, but I do think that is a fairer comparison, than to the Messi's of this world.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2021, 06:09:00 pm »
Would it be mischievous to throw in the possibility of the Manchester based press wank-fest over the said football "Beatle" may have created a bit of rose tinted bias in some folks eyes?

Not for me. I was genuinely shocked by the quality of the player in the video that Timbo posted. Most old stuff is best remembered by anecdote and "I was there" stories in the pub. When you get to see the Mullery goal again ("What a goal, goal, goal....") or the John Barnes slalom through the QPR defence it's never quite as good as you remember it. I even thought the same watching Pele in the current Netflix documentary. But the Best video proves what I was in danger of forgetting. George, like a handful of genuine greats, transcended his own era. His skill still 'works' today. He was so much better than most of other footballers in his own time. 
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2021, 07:34:36 pm »
Not for me. I was genuinely shocked by the quality of the player in the video that Timbo posted. Most old stuff is best remembered by anecdote and "I was there" stories in the pub. When you get to see the Mullery goal again ("What a goal, goal, goal....") or the John Barnes slalom through the QPR defence it's never quite as good as you remember it. I even thought the same watching Pele in the current Netflix documentary. But the Best video proves what I was in danger of forgetting. George, like a handful of genuine greats, transcended his own era. His skill still 'works' today. He was so much better than most of other footballers in his own time.

Exactly this....Football intelligence/genius transcends the cohort and is timeless. Bestie had it.  Maradona had it.  A few others mentioned here too.  Mostly, it comes down to imagination and decision making instead of raw physical power.
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #74 on: September 22, 2021, 07:59:46 pm »
I would probably put Best in the same category as Ronaldinho. Frightening players at their peak, potential to have been remembered as players who proved across their entire careers they were magical. Sadly for us, both only reached the stars for a short period of time, imagine if both of those players had been at the very top level of their abilities for 10 years - wow we would have been treated to some spectacles.

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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #75 on: September 22, 2021, 08:02:29 pm »
With all due respect but there are just a handful of players you could legitimately mention in the same sentence as Messi and George Best ain't one of them. Definitely one of the best UK players of all time but let's keep it real here.
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #76 on: September 22, 2021, 08:37:40 pm »
With all due respect but there are just a handful of players you could legitimately mention in the same sentence as Messi and George Best ain't one of them. Definitely one of the best UK players of all time but let's keep it real here.

Powerful argument. You've persuaded me :D
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #77 on: September 22, 2021, 08:42:30 pm »
Powerful argument. You've persuaded me :D

Messi scored more than 30 goals in a La Liga season nine times and his role in the team wasn't exactly 'Marco van Basten'  :D  In all of his United career Best scored 179 goals. Messi scored 183 between 2010 and 2013, just three years and more goals than what Best did in a decade.

Comparing Best with Messi is like comparing Sputnik to Apollo 11 as far as I'm concerned. Both went to space but one a lot further.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 08:47:00 pm by Linudden »
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #78 on: September 22, 2021, 09:07:22 pm »
Messi scored more than 30 goals in a La Liga season nine times and his role in the team wasn't exactly 'Marco van Basten'  :D  In all of his United career Best scored 179 goals. Messi scored 183 between 2010 and 2013, just three years and more goals than what Best did in a decade.

Comparing Best with Messi is like comparing Sputnik to Apollo 11 as far as I'm concerned. Both went to space but one a lot further.

So who are the "handful" of players we can mention "legitimately" in the same sentence as Messi?
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Re: George Best - on a par with Messi?
« Reply #79 on: September 22, 2021, 09:55:31 pm »
Still disagree with Maradona fans who elevate his greatness by deriding the quality of players he played with. Those Argentine teams were crack teams full of Libertadores winners - Argentine sides dominated it in the 70s and mid 80s. Napoli were huge spenders in the 80s too. The recent argentina teams were way more dysfunctional then those managed by Carlos Bilardo
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