Topic: Was LFC Ticket Pricing Forum Now an Al555 usual mantra topic

[Graham Smith]

Am I still seeing on this page people suggesting ticket revenue is relevant to our competiveness? Really?

Absolutely no evidence that it does, none. You’re being brainwashed into thinking that if we reduce ticket revenue we’ll get relegated or that if we keep prices where they are we will win the league.

The usual suspects have quoted figures that are without context.

We’re looking at season tickets and general admission - not seeking to reduce the prices to zero, but getting them down to a reasonable level for a Club based in this area.

No one is suggesting a massive hit in one season, but a journey over a period of time. The first season hit would be negligible for a business likely to have £400m revenues in the next 18 months or so.

[Eeyore]

Am I still seeing on this page people suggesting ticket revenue is relevant to our competiveness? Really?

Absolutely no evidence that it does, none. You’re being brainwashed into thinking that if we reduce ticket revenue we’ll get relegated or that if we keep prices where they are we will win the league.

The usual suspects have quoted figures that are without context.

We’re looking at season tickets and general admission - not seeking to reduce the prices to zero, but getting them down to a reasonable level for a Club based in this area.

No one is suggesting a massive hit in one season, but a journey over a period of time. The first season hit would be negligible for a business likely to have £400m revenues in the next 18 months or so.

Absolutely spot on Graham.

If it was down to ticket revenue then the most successful Clubs historically would come from the Capital.

The reality is that Arsenal are 3rd in terms of League titles, Chelsea are 7th and Spurs are 16th.

[SP]

Absolutely spot on Graham.

If it was down to ticket revenue then the most successful Clubs historically would come from the Capital.

The reality is that Arsenal are 3rd in terms of League titles, Chelsea are 7th and Spurs are 16th.

You appear to be quoting all time league stats, whereby the bulk of that period the game was not as money dominated as recently.  Since the amount of money required to distort the league rose into oil sheik levels, you stats don’t work quite as well.

[Eeyore]

You appear to be quoting all time league stats, whereby the bulk of that period the game was not as money dominated as recently.  Since the amount of money required to distort the league rose into oil sheik levels, you stats don’t work quite as well.

Of course they do.

From the last Deloitte money league the team from London with the biggest matchday revenue was Arsenal with £99m if ticket prices were an indicator of performance then they would of won more League titles recently than Chelsea with £69m.

Likewise in Manchester the team with the most League titles recently surely has to be United with a matchday revenue of £102m compared to City's £52m.

What seems to being missed here is that City and Chelsea have basically a bottomless pit of money that will always mean they will have money at their disposal than us. If we were to double or treble our matchday income then their benefactors would just pump in more money.

So what is the point in ordinary working people putting in more and more of their disposable income when it makes no difference whatsoever.

[SP]

Of course they do.

From the last Deloitte money league the team from London with the biggest matchday revenue was Arsenal with £99m if ticket prices were an indicator of performance then they would of won more League titles recently than Chelsea with £69m.

Likewise in Manchester the team with the most League titles recently surely has to be United with a matchday revenue of £102m compared to City's £52m.

What seems to being missed here is that City and Chelsea have basically a bottomless pit of money that will always mean they will have money at their disposal than us. If we were to double or treble our matchday income then their benefactors would just pump in more money.

So what is the point in ordinary working people putting in more and more of their disposable income when it makes no difference whatsoever.

You are using bizarre absolutes. Just because the sugar daddies are financially doping does not negate all other factors. The case you are trying to make holds water without your exaggerations and hyperbole.

[Johnny Foreigner]

If LFC would have been bold and lowered prices, sponsors would have made up the difference if they had been approached. In terms of CSR etc, the right companies would have loved it. And yes - it has been done before in smaller leagues

[Eeyore]

You are using bizarre absolutes. Just because the sugar daddies are financially doping does not negate all other factors. The case you are trying to make holds water without your exaggerations and hyperbole.

For me the only way you are going to compete with the sugar daddies is by increasing two things your fanbase and your commercial revenues. That means copying the likes of Bayern, Madrid, Barca and United teams that have huge stadiums and huge commercial incomes.

Raising prices may help in the short term but in the long term it is highly likely that it will start to have an impact on the size of your fan base.

[El Lobo]

No I want all clubs to lower ticket prices.

I also want us to stop believing in the myth that ticket prices are an indicator of where you will finish.

Is that even a myth...? Did anyone actually say that...?

Wait, did you just imagine another argument so you could make a point you wanted to make?  As ever you seem to have diverted from a pretty good debate about how to reduce league side ticket prices, to laying the groundwork to slag the owners off again. At a guess your next point will be about them not expanding the stadium further because they’re too stingy?

[Eeyore]

Is that even a myth...? Did anyone actually say that...?

Wait, did you just imagine another argument so you could make a point you wanted to make?  As ever you seem to have diverted from a pretty good debate about how to reduce league side ticket prices, to laying the groundwork to slag the owners off again. At a guess your next point will be about them not expanding the stadium further because they’re too stingy?

Firstly you said it yourself Eel you said that if we lowered prices we would put ourselves at a competitive disadvantage. Considering we are a Football team that competes to win Football matches then how else can 'putting ourselves at a competitive disadvantage be judged'.

Secondly how can I be accused of looking to slag off the owners in this thread when I have continually said that all GA prices across all Clubs in the Premier League should be capped. It isn't about slagging off owners it is about backing organisations like SOS and the FSF in their attempts to lower ticket prices for us the fans.

[Graham Smith]

You appear to be quoting all time league stats, whereby the bulk of that period the game was not as money dominated as recently.  Since the amount of money required to distort the league rose into oil sheik levels, you stats don’t work quite as well.

Couldn’t be more wrong.

In the pre Premier League era ticket revenue actually did have a massive relevance to spending power as it was the primary revenue source (other than maybe owner largesse).

Hence why we, with large crowds and investing owners could consistently compete from Shankly’s time onwards.

There’s the irony

[Harinder]

Honest question time. Why does adding £2-5-10 on tickets make us competitive?

The match day revenue figure in public domain isn’t solely ticket revenue. We all know this I believe. So the question for me always becomes by increasing prices what is the gain? It’s not a significant revenue leap so that can’t be it. It’s not making us competitive really by that “giving Klopp resources” bollocks as it won’t fund a superstar.

It just seems to be wanting more for more’s sake. The sad fact is that in the first meeting secondary market figures were being highlighted as a reason for folks willingness to pay more.  That just makes me feel very uncomfortable about why any football club wants to increase ticket prices. Peoples take home pay isn’t going up (for many). Cost of living is going up (for many). TV money is going up (for many).

So why do ticket prices need to? Premier league alone it’s 19 home matches. Let’s keep it simple with it being just say general admission tickets. For arguments sake, and I don’t have exact figure to hand, let’s say 20,000 general admission give it is around 27k season tickets excluding hospitality.

I add £5 to each ticket. Irrespective of where that seat is. £100k a match then so £1.9m a season. TV money goes up by how much? 2m a season is less than 1% of overall 2015/16 revenue.

No guarantees on cup runs or European competitions. How the heck will £1.9m a season make us more competitive or give us a resource for Klopp?

Hope that helps shape discussion rather than just going around in circles. Fix figures against known home matches and ticket circulation for general admission (so not season tickets). You then see it isn’t a big shift in income.
 

[Eeyore]

Honest question time. Why does adding £2-5-10 on tickets make us competitive?

The match day revenue figure in public domain isn’t solely ticket revenue. We all know this I believe. So the question for me always becomes by increasing prices what is the gain? It’s not a significant revenue leap so that can’t be it. It’s not making us competitive really by that “giving Klopp resources” bollocks as it won’t fund a superstar.

It just seems to be wanting more for more’s sake. The sad fact is that in the first meeting secondary market figures were being highlighted as a reason for folks willingness to pay more.  That just makes me feel very uncomfortable about why any football club wants to increase ticket prices. Peoples take home pay isn’t going up (for many). Cost of living is going up (for many). TV money is going up (for many).

So why do ticket prices need to? Premier league alone it’s 19 home matches. Let’s keep it simple with it being just say general admission tickets. For arguments sake, and I don’t have exact figure to hand, let’s say 20,000 general admission give it is around 27k season tickets excluding hospitality.

I add £5 to each ticket. Irrespective of where that seat is. £100k a match then so £1.9m a season. TV money goes up by how much? 2m a season is less than 1% of overall 2015/16 revenue.

No guarantees on cup runs or European competitions. How the heck will £1.9m a season make us more competitive or give us a resource for Klopp?

Hope that helps shape discussion rather than just going around in circles. Fix figures against known home matches and ticket circulation for general admission (so not season tickets). You then see it isn’t a big shift in income.
 

I can see it from the clubs point of view
 They must look at the prices the touts are charging and see it as free money. The club could get a increase in revenue without paying for extra seats, extra stewards etc.

What they have to realise though is that the likelihood is that the people who are prepared to pay way over face value for tickets are only likely to do it once or twice a season and that the only way to increase revenue is to increase prices for everyone.

When you buy a season ticket then yes individually the prices for the big games might seem reasonable but only in isolation. We take the rough with the smooth and overpay for games against the fodder.

As you say ticket prices are such a small part of the revenue and if we price people out then we risk endangering our long term future.

[NaivetyinBlack]

From the latest UEFA benchmarking report.



The competitiveness driven by ticket prices logic holds no ground. None.

[Ossie T]

From the latest UEFA benchmarking report.



The competitiveness driven by ticket prices logic holds no ground. None.

Ridiculous, LFC are earning £55.68 per fan per game.

This model is just milking the fans dry. I'm not surprised I'm surrounded by daytrippers at every home game.

[stevensr123]

Ridiculous, LFC are earning £55.68 per fan per game.

This model is just milking the fans dry. I'm not surprised I'm surrounded by daytrippers at every home game.

It is considering

1. we have won fuck all for years
2. we are charging capital city prices.

I dont get why some fans on this site even defend it. Clubs are making more money than ever. fans are taking pay cuts/losing jobs/the economy is shite.  Yet ticket prices are either staying the same or going up (not just liverpool but in general) .

[Suareznumber7]

Yet ticket prices are either staying the same or going up (not just liverpool but in general) .

Kind of curious about this, but does anyone know if there has ever been an instance, anywhere in major professional sports, where ticket prices have gone down over time? 

I know here in the States ticket prices are even more ridiculous then they are in England and I’ve been priced out of going to any sporting events for years.  I recently looked to get tickets to a professional basketball game and tickets ranged anywhere from $2000+ (near the floor) to $200+ (in the nosebleed seats).  I don’t know how any working class family can afford to attend sporting events these days.  That’s just to get in the door then you have the ridiculous prices for beer and food as well as souvenirs if you have kids. 

[Ossie T]

It is considering

1. we have won fuck all for years
2. we are charging capital city prices.

I dont get why some fans on this site even defend it. Clubs are making more money than ever. fans are taking pay cuts/losing jobs/the economy is shite.  Yet ticket prices are either staying the same or going up (not just liverpool but in general) .

Even winning trophies doesn't justify charging the obscene prices that we get charged. It's absolutely scandolous

[BrandoLFC]

Just looking at this from the outside for a second, there seems to be a disconnect between thinking of the club as a civic institution and the reality that it's a privately owned business.  This then gets into gatekeeping of who has a right to be a fan and who should be able to go watch a game which I think happens way to often on this forum when it comes to subjects like these.  Should ticket prices come down?  Yes.  Will they?  Probably not as the club can't even meet demand now as is.  How would they meet the increased demand if you then lowered prices?  They obviously wouldn't unless you go down the road of gatekeeping.  That's all this ever comes down to and what this will come down to if prices are lowered whether it be league wide or not.

[Skeeve]

No what I expect is the owners to act as custodians of one of Footballs great institutions. Part of that is to look long term and to ensure that the next generation of fans isn't priced out of the game. So for me what SP said is wrong and that the difference between what it costs and what it earns in the short term isn't the only thing that matters.

Not saddling us with excessive debts that result in us having to compromise on the squad would be them failing to act as custodians of the club, they are not some oil state who want a football team as some sort of vanity project or plaything, gradually increasing our existing and much loved stadium is the sensible way to approach things in the longer term

[Eeyore]

Not saddling us with excessive debts that result in us having to compromise on the squad would be them failing to act as custodians of the club, they are not some oil state who want a football team as some sort of vanity project or plaything, gradually increasing our existing and much loved stadium is the sensible way to approach things in the longer term

Why would the Club be saddled with excessive debts though. Surely there is a case for FSG funding a Stadium from the huge increase in the value of the Club. As for gradually increasing our existing Stadium you do realize that the Main Stand redevelopment was part of the Clubs original plan to redevelop the Main Stand and the ARE. A plan the Club came up with in 1999. Eighteen years on and we still haven't redeveloped the ARE and both the Centenary and Kop are pretty much landlocked.

The other thing is the parallels with the Red Sox. Both Liverpool and the Red Sox are the traditionally 2nd biggest Club in their Country. Yet the Red Sox have only the 26th biggest Capacity Stadium out of 30 Major League Baseball teams.

The Red Sox compensate for their small capacity by making Fenway park the most expensive baseball arena in America. They can do that because Boston is an affluent area and demand outstrips supply. Liverpool is a very different area with the average hourly pay being around £10 an hour. So basically it costs a Liverpool fan on average 6 hours pay to get 90 minutes of Football. 12 hours if you want to take your kids, 18 hours for two kids or 24 hours for a family of four.

It is unsustainable in the long run and we risk losing a generation of supporters. Liverpool families are often of mixed heritage with kids having parents, uncles aunties and grand parents who are a mixture of reds and blues. They are often vying witch each other to get the kids to support their team. So who is likely to win out when £100 gets you a ticket of a tout for one game whilst the same £100 gets you a kids season ticket at Goodison.

Anfied and it's atmosphere are already unidentifiable from it's hey day and if we continue down the road we are on we will end up with our stadium becoming just another soulless tourist trap. Then again if all we are concerned with is the needs of the business then tourist traps can be quite lucrative.

[WisconsinRed]

Al555 don't listen to the those being negative towards your ideas. You're on the right side of the argument. All normal fans believe there should be lower prices. Those saying otherwise must not go to the match.

[Harinder]

Just looking at this from the outside for a second, there seems to be a disconnect between thinking of the club as a civic institution and the reality that it's a privately owned business.  This then gets into gatekeeping of who has a right to be a fan and who should be able to go watch a game which I think happens way to often on this forum when it comes to subjects like these.  Should ticket prices come down?  Yes.  Will they?  Probably not as the club can't even meet demand now as is.  How would they meet the increased demand if you then lowered prices?  They obviously wouldn't unless you go down the road of gatekeeping.  That's all this ever comes down to and what this will come down to if prices are lowered whether it be league wide or not.

For me it’s more a case of the reasoning attempted by the club. If it remotely held water I’d get it but it simply doesn’t. Even before travelling down paths of how the club is viewed it kind of needs to not pussyfoot around what they are saying and be honest. They then get forthright honest answers back and that means they get real life arguments as to why it doesn’t correlate to what they want.

[BrandoLFC]

For me it’s more a case of the reasoning attempted by the club. If it remotely held water I’d get it but it simply doesn’t. Even before travelling down paths of how the club is viewed it kind of needs to not pussyfoot around what they are saying and be honest. They then get forthright honest answers back and that means they get real life arguments as to why it doesn’t correlate to what they want.

"Real Life" arguments for whom?  The local minimum wage fan?  The local fan that is better off?  The fan that can drive or fly in for a game regularly?  The fan that saves up a whole year to come visit Anfield for one game?  They're all fans right?

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Given what appears to be the club's thinking, the best hope we have is for at the moment is an even more stretched range between top and bottom pricing because this seems to be the only solution that will provide revenue that can be reinvested into lower prices.

My view for what it's worth is that if selling a few more packages for an extra few quid means that we can get more kids and young adults into the ground cheaply then we are moving in the right direction. When my lad started going on his own a couple of years ago, more often than not he was paying full bat. This year he has found it easier to pick up young adult tickets - have more become available or is he just a bit better at ticket buying? Whatever the answer, this needs to be built on along with the 2 home FA Cup games.

The above of course is rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic and until we address the stupid amounts of money leaving the game via agents and players wages then we will never make real progress and for that to happen we need collective action rather than unilateral - but that should not be an excuse for no action at all, and as Liverpool we have the clout to take a lead on this.

When the reported agent commission of £20m for the Sanchez deal exceeds Everton's 2016/7 Matchday income by about 40%, that surely is the cue to urgently review how the game is financed, because at the moment it is an exercise in transferring money from the many to the few in rapidly increasing amounts.

[gazzam1963]

Given what appears to be the club's thinking, the best hope we have is for at the moment is an even more stretched range between top and bottom pricing because this seems to be the only solution that will provide revenue that can be reinvested into lower prices.

My view for what it's worth is that if selling a few more packages for an extra few quid means that we can get more kids and young adults into the ground cheaply then we are moving in the right direction. When my lad started going on his own a couple of years ago, more often than not he was paying full bat. This year he has found it easier to pick up young adult tickets - have more become available or is he just a bit better at ticket buying? Whatever the answer, this needs to be built on along with the 2 home FA Cup games.

The above of course is rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic and until we address the stupid amounts of money leaving the game via agents and players wages then we will never make real progress and for that to happen we need collective action rather than unilateral - but that should not be an excuse for no action at all, and as Liverpool we have the clout to take a lead on this.

When the reported agent commission of £20m for the Sanchez deal exceeds Everton's 2016/7 Matchday income by about 40%, that surely is the cue to urgently review how the game is financed, because at the moment it is an exercise in transferring money from the many to the few in rapidly increasing amounts.

That quote at the end about the agent fee and everton match day income if true is absolutely obscene and more how the tail is wagging the dog ...a ring fenced premier league rule on some  tv money to be allocated to lowering ticket prices is the only league wide solution , extra money is just finding it's way into players and agents pockets beyond what is really acceptable these days

[JCB]

From the latest UEFA benchmarking report.



The competitiveness driven by ticket prices logic holds no ground. None.

Bit confused with this and hoping someone can clarify things for me.

Cheapest season ticket at Anfield: £685                  => £36.05 per game
Cheapest season ticket at Wembley (Spurs)  £695   => £36.57 per game

I understand the report is probably last year's pricing but how are they calculating these numbers?
Any chance you can direct me to the report and page number (had a quick look at the latest one but couldn't find the table). Cheers.

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/tickets/season-ticket-prices
https://i.tottenhamhotspur.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003428385-Season-ticket-pricing-guide

[stevensr123]

Bit confused with this and hoping someone can clarify things for me.

Cheapest season ticket at Anfield: £685                  => £36.05 per game
Cheapest season ticket at Wembley (Spurs)  £695   => £36.57 per game

I understand the report is probably last year's pricing but how are they calculating these numbers?
Any chance you can direct me to the report and page number (had a quick look at the latest one but couldn't find the table). Cheers.

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/tickets/season-ticket-prices
https://i.tottenhamhotspur.com/hc/en-us/articles/115003428385-Season-ticket-pricing-guide

they probably take ticket price averages dont they?

[stevensr123]

At the end of the day though, I think ticket prices are far too expensive. I think Liverpool should base them off what the Local people earn (probably 10 pound an hour?) but we are charging prices that are comparable to london prices etc where they earn a lot more.

Ofcourse some people on here are a bit heartless and just see it as "the market" However its a shame that is the view. The club is still this great city's club and local people shouldn't be price out of going. I earn a decent wedge but even I'm selective about when to go etc because 70-80 Min quid (after travel, food drink, tickets etc) is a lot of money to spend every few weeks.

and it isn't just FSG who are at fault, the premier league, FA, All clubs in general, Players etc should all do more to help the people who, at the end of the day, make them a shit load of money. They are all selfish bastards though.

[JCB]

they probably take ticket price averages dont they?

My first thought but the most expensive LFC ticket is £869 and the most expensive Spurs ticket is £1,700.

[stevensr123]

My first thought but the most expensive LFC ticket is £869 and the most expensive Spurs ticket is £1,700.

How many of them do they sell though? and what percentage of the ground are those tickets? I'm guessing its about price average + percentage of how many of those tickets are at that cost  and then spread across the entire season?

[Eeyore]

That quote at the end about the agent fee and everton match day income if true is absolutely obscene and more how the tail is wagging the dog ...a ring fenced premier league rule on some  tv money to be allocated to lowering ticket prices is the only league wide solution , extra money is just finding it's way into players and agents pockets beyond what is really acceptable these days

The thing is people always look to pass the buck to the the Premier League but who are the Premier League. The Premier League is a corporation and it's shareholders are the member clubs. We are not talking about a governing body that makes decisions. The Clubs make the decisions or more specifically the owners of the Clubs make the decisions.

So this is well within the remit of the owners to get together and to put a cap on ticket prices. As you say the easiest solution is to ring fence some of the TV money and use that to lower ticket prices. The owners had no problem getting together and bringing in Premier League rules that prevented themselves making losses so why not look after the fans.

[CraigDS]

How many of them do they sell though? and what percentage of the ground are those tickets? I'm guessing its about price average + percentage of how many of those tickets are at that cost  and then spread across the entire season?

I doubt UEFA has access to such information.

[JCB]

How many of them do they sell though? and what percentage of the ground are those tickets? I'm guessing its about price average + percentage of how many of those tickets are at that cost  and then spread across the entire season?

This is why I wanted to see the report. Hopefully there might be some footnotes. If you look at the links provided, you can see the bands for their pricing.If you go 1/3 of the way down the Tottenham prices you're already close to the Liverpool max. 

[CraigDS]

This is why I wanted to see the report. Hopefully there might be some footnotes. If you look at the links provided, you can see the bands for their pricing.If you go 1/3 of the way down the Tottenham prices you're already close to the Liverpool max.

Have just done and image search and appears it is from a Daily Mail article.

UEFA say: ‘The average yield provides a benchmark for the price of attending football matches. It reflects all types of gate receipts including season tickets, match day tickets, membership fees (where tickets are part of that membership), premium ticketing and hospitality [income].’

http://www.daily mail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5276443/Arsenal-fans-pay-world-football.html

[JCB]

Have just done and image search and appears it is from a Daily Mail article.

UEFA say: ‘The average yield provides a benchmark for the price of attending football matches. It reflects all types of gate receipts including season tickets, match day tickets, membership fees (where tickets are part of that membership), premium ticketing and hospitality [income].’

http://www.daily mail.co.uk/sport/football/article-5276443/Arsenal-fans-pay-world-football.html

Cheers, no wonder I couldn't find that table in the report .
So I'm assuming that the premium ticketing and hospitality includes corporate boxes, vip lounges etc.

[CraigDS]

Cheers, no wonder I couldn't find that table in the report .
So I'm assuming that the premium ticketing and hospitality includes corporate boxes, vip lounges etc.

Looks like all they've done is take stadium/ticketing income from the accounts and then split this over the total reported attendance for all the games that year to get an average cost.

It's a piss poor way of doing it to be honest.

[stevensr123]

Looks like all they've done is take stadium/ticketing income from the accounts and then split this over the total reported attendance for all the games that year to get an average cost.

It's a piss poor way of doing it to be honest.

You would think its a bit more in depth than that though surely?What was the meaning behind producing the report in the first place anyway?

[JCB]

Looks like all they've done is take stadium/ticketing income from the accounts and then split this over the total reported attendance for all the games that year to get an average cost.

It's a piss poor way of doing it to be honest.

Especially when you factor the amount of corporate boxes we have compared to Tottenham @ WHL nowadays.

I just couldn't understand how a London based club was so much lower but I think it makes sense now... (WHU I could because they practically got their stadium for free).

If you then account for the cost of living in other countries relative to England as well you start to get a better overall idea of the data.

[JCB]

You would think its a bit more in depth than that though surely?What was the meaning behind producing the report in the first place anyway?

The report is quite comprehensive and covers a lot about finances, growth projections infrastructure across the globe, etc worth a look. That tidbit of information hardly makes up any of the report which is why I struggled to find it.

edit here's the link  http://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/OfficialDocument/uefaorg/Finance/02/42/27/91/2422791_DOWNLOAD.pdf

[redmanraj]

My first thought but the most expensive LFC ticket is £869 and the most expensive Spurs ticket is £1,700.

They probably take into account corporate prices too which will drive the average up considerably.