Topic: Javier Mascherano

[Sweet Silver Song]

That's your argument?  That some people singled Momo/Masch out for man of the match appraisals?

Christ on a bike.

OK clearly you don't rate Masch as much as me. Well I'm not sure how i can convince you, other than to suggest that I think Rafa is smart enough over the course of this season to see who he's best two are. I'll come back to this thread then.

[Redcap]

OK clearly you don't rate Masch as much as me. Well I'm not sure how i can convince you, other than to suggest that I think Rafa is smart enough over the course of this season to see who he's best two are. I'll come back to this thread then.

I don't know how it's possible that someone as knowledgeable about football and as observant as you has failed to pick up how frequently Rafa's chopped and changed almost every position so far. There's no pecking order.. no 'best two'.. just possibilities.

[fredmilne]

OK clearly you don't rate Masch as much as me.

If it was up to me, I'd probably play Mascherano & Alonso CM / Gerrard RM in most games.

[¡Basta Ya!]

Just do it. Just do what I've been saying... fit them all in... come on.... 4-3-3... you know it makes sense.

[Hank Scorpio]

Just do it. Just do what I've been saying... fit them all in... come on.... 4-3-3... you know it makes sense.

Would love to see it but it would mean sacrificing a striker or full back/winger (3-4-1-2).

[PaislyShankley]

Would love to see it but it would mean sacrificing a striker or full back/winger (3-4-1-2).

That's okay, we can argue about the relative merits of the strikers then.

[Redcap]

Would love to see it but it would mean sacrificing a striker or full back/winger (3-4-1-2).

If we played 4-3-3, it'd almost certainly be Pennant who gets the chop, due to his lack of goal threat.

[6BigCups]

i'd rather have him starting instead of Alonso to be honest. I like Alonso, but he is caught in possession too often, and IMO doesnt offer as much to the team as Masch does!

[Sweet Silver Song]

I don't know how it's possible that someone as knowledgeable about football and as observant as you has failed to pick up how frequently Rafa's chopped and changed almost every position so far. There's no pecking order.. no 'best two'.. just possibilities.

Don't be fooled by the rotation myth. Rafa uses that as a tool to keep everyone happy and on their toes. He doesn't rotate his best players for the crucial games. He knows who his best 11 are, contrary to what the press and so called television experts might try to make us believe.

[Sweet Silver Song]

Really liked this tread when it started as Mascherano is quickly turning in one of my favourite players, The guys is pure class. But it has turned into a tread full of shit. Sweet Silver you just talking waffle. to be honest I really like Mascherano but how do you make out he and Gerrard where the in form players prior to the Chelsea game. He played one game v Toulouse and they were shit. He played no part in our pre-season. Also no matter what way you look at it Rob Styles cost us 3 points against Chelsea.

I take it you didn't catch any of the Copa America games this summer. You probably weren't impressed with the 15 minutes or so that Masch played in Toulouse. Sometimes, you don't need to see a player scoring, making chances or spraying the ball around to know he has class. Also the game before the Chelsea match, the Villa game, Alonso continued in the same vein of form from last season.   Which I think even he would be first to admit wasn't up to the high standards he has set himself at the club. On that basis, and yes it was only two games, I would have said that Masch and Gerrard were clearly the two in form, and I would have started them against Chelsea.

[Sweet Silver Song]

I think Mascherano is a brilliant player, a top class international and I don't know how he wouldn't get in the best "11". But.......Alonso is a little bit more expansive with his passing and that is crucial when you have fantastic runners like Torres, Babel, Pennant etc.

Agree with what you say about Alonso being expansive with his passing, but that's when his on form. He isn't on top form at the moment, and I don't recall a single pass so far this season where he has used the running ability of the 3 you have mentioned. I could be wrong, and if someone can correct me, fine.

Masch doesn't have the full range of Alonso when he's in form, but he rarely gives the ball away. Which is also crucial. Look at the pass he played to Arbeloa to set up Ryan's goal on Saturday. Also, you need to factor in that when Masch plays alongside Gerrard, Gerrard doesn't have to worry about what's behind him too much, and is free to influence the game much further up the field. Alonside Alonso (even an in form Alonso) he can't afford to neglect his defensive duties as much. 

[fredmilne]

Masch doesn't have the full range of Alonso when he's in form, but he rarely gives the ball away. Which is also crucial.

He doesn't give the ball away when there is no pressing from the opposition midfield (e.g. Toulouse, Derby).

Against better opposition (e.g. Chelsea in both legs of the CL Semi-final), he is at least as capable of giving the ball away as Alonso.

That's not to say Mascherano isn't a very fine player but this whitewashing of him does no-one any favours.

[TheRedBull]

Masch doesn't have the full range of Alonso when he's in form, but he rarely gives the ball away. Which is also crucial. Look at the pass he played to Arbeloa to set up Ryan's goal on Saturday.

It was Agger who pass that ball... At least get your fact right.

[Hank Scorpio]

He doesn't give the ball away when there is no pressing from the opposition midfield (e.g. Toulouse, Derby).

Against better opposition (e.g. Chelsea in both legs of the CL Semi-final), he is at least as capable of giving the ball away as Alonso.

That's not to say Mascherano isn't a very fine player but this whitewashing of him does no-one any favours.

Mascherano is in no way as technically gifted as Alonso, but he is no mug either.

Half the game is played in his head.  He knows what the right pass is, where to play it, keeping it simple and hence just keeping it.

Add this to the fact that he is defensively superior to Alonso, making him a perfect foil for Gerrard, I feel he deserves his place in the side.

[Sweet Silver Song]

Mascherano is in no way as technically gifted as Alonso, but he is no mug either.

Half the game is played in his head.  He knows what the right pass is, where to play it, keeping it simple and hence just keeping it.

Add this to the fact that he is defensively superior to Alonso, making him a perfect foil for Gerrard, I feel he deserves his place in the side.

I think he also falls into the same category as Hamann. You don't really appreciate the work he does off the ball, until he's not there. In Athens, we didn't see Kaka until Masch was taken off.

[Sweet Silver Song]

It was Agger who pass that ball... At least get your fact right.

OK I was wrong on that one. But I could point out the pass he made for the next goal that was scored in that game. 

[fredmilne]

Add this to the fact that he is defensively superior to Alonso, making him a perfect foil for Gerrard, I feel he deserves his place in the side.

I don't think its quite as simple as that.

Yes Mascherano's mobility means that Gerrard has that bit more defensive cover when he bombs on but Alonso's passing range allows Gerrard a starting position higher up the pitch.  (Often when Gerrard was paired with Hamann, we saw Gerrard dropping deep to start moves from in front of the centre-backs when really we needed him on the end of those passes.)

[PaislyShankley]

Mascherano's tackling is superb. The set up for Torres' goal is all the proof you need, get it wrong and it's probably a yellow card.

[Hank Scorpio]

Yes Mascherano's mobility means that Gerrard has that bit more defensive cover when he bombs on but Alonso's passing range allows Gerrard a starting position higher up the pitch.  (Often when Gerrard was paired with Hamann, we saw Gerrard dropping deep to start moves from in front of the centre-backs when really we needed him on the end of those passes.)

I know what you mean.

Having Alonso in the side is by no means a disadvantage, but on current form, I believe Mascherano is superior. 

I guess that we should be thankful that we are even able to have this debate.  3 top, top quality central midfielders and some smashing potential in Sissoko and Lucas also.

[Sweet Silver Song]

Anyway, why haven't any of our terrace songmeisters come up with a tribute yet?;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0thH3qnHTbI

[djphal]

for me if we are playing two in the centre it should be mascherano and gerrard

[XabiRanger]

for me if we are playing two in the centre it should be mascherano and gerrard

We have so many luxuries in midfield this year.

Its a good and bad thing

[jc1200]

We should be happy with our squad and lets just Rafa to manage the squad.  I certainly dont want a system used simply to accomodate 3/4 CM's.

This isnt a time for egos, everyone will have to play there part. Jermain has been awesome on Right and Babel is looking promising on Left plus we look far more potent with 2 up top.

Rafa has done it already this season and last season noticeably in champions league semi final but if we are to go close with title it time for Rafa to have the Kahuna's to pick 2 out of 4 and be done with it.

[Gnurglan]

JM is top quality and he'll only get better. I'm so happy we signed him. He's good enough to play in any midfield in the world. (Bar West Ham's, I should add...)

[BazC]

There is a third reason. His best games were almost always playing next to Hamman. Playing with Sissoko and Gerrard meant that he was sitting deeper. If  Alonso played next to Mascherano his attacking play would imrpove.

Yeah sorry should have made it clear... but I thought that was sort of implied- he had to change his role in the team (or rather Rafa changed his role) because we needed that defensive midfielder type- especially with Gerrard charging forward and (at that time) pretty indisciplined in his forward escapades in the search for goals. This meant the more creative risk taking Xabi wasn't really needed what with Gerrard in the team- what was needed was a defensive midfielder (Hamann was coming to the end of his Liverpool career).

When Xabi was playing with less responsibility to defend he could take more risks- and because of his ability on the ball, those risks came off- so he was more eye catching. But I maintain his new less aparent role is just as important to the team.

[Suspect Package.]

I'll say it again:

If the rumours are true about Javier only being ours on an 18 month contract....

Give the man a 5 year contract Rafa, I don't care if you have to wrestle MSI for full ownership.

The issue of who is our strongest two is immaterial to the point of having such quality players challenging for the spots.

[a partridge in seat_5c]

especially with Gerrard charging forward and (at that time) pretty indisciplined in his forward escapades in the search for goals

I've seen that written, oh, a thousand times, and it still doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever

would anyone (I'm not getting at you Baz) care to explain how Gerrard is supposed to charge forward in his search for goals in a more disciplined way ?

should he wear a tie and make sure his socks are ironed with a crease down the front ?

should he only do it when Rafa bawls "Charge ! " from the touchline ?

should he only do it at the third stroke, precisely, of every quarter hour ?

 


attacking a space behind your opposite number, possibly THE singlemost fundamental of attacking football, is inherently indisciplined

if players can't be indisciplined in this way then God help us all cos football will be dead

[BazC]

I've seen that written, oh, a thousand times, and it still doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever

would anyone (I'm not getting at you Baz) care to explain how Gerrard is supposed to charge forward in his search for goals in a more disciplined way ?

should he wear a tie and make sure his socks are ironed with a crease down the front ?

should he only do it when Rafa bawls "Charge ! " from the touchline ?

should he only do it at the third stroke, precisely, of every quarter hour ?

 


attacking a space behind your opposite number, possibly THE singlemost fundamental of attacking football, is inherently indisciplined

if players can't be indisciplined in this way then God help us all cos football will be dead

Sure, I'll explain- or try to!

It's no good bombing forward all the time- it's important to choose when to join the attack and support the strikers. I'm sure I've seen Rafa quotes which said that Gerrard needed to work on his 'tactical aspects' a bit more (these were a couple of seasons ago)- read the game a bit better and realise the best times to attack the spaces.

Also, I think we saw last season how Gerrard really showed how he has become more disciplined- he doesn't always act on his instinct to get forward all the time; and it's the way it needs to be if he's to play in a 2 man CM. Maybe it's been a major factor in Rafa playing Gerrard in the middle now- because he trusts him to be more tactically aware and know the best times to get forward, or to stay back?

[Mal]

I've seen that written, oh, a thousand times, and it still doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever

would anyone (I'm not getting at you Baz) care to explain how Gerrard is supposed to charge forward in his search for goals in a more disciplined way ?

should he wear a tie and make sure his socks are ironed with a crease down the front ?

should he only do it when Rafa bawls "Charge ! " from the touchline ?

should he only do it at the third stroke, precisely, of every quarter hour ?

 


attacking a space behind your opposite number, possibly THE singlemost fundamental of attacking football, is inherently indisciplined

if players can't be indisciplined in this way then God help us all cos football will be dead

Sure, I'll explain- or try to!

It's no good bombing forward all the time- it's important to choose when to join the attack and support the strikers. I'm sure I've seen Rafa quotes which said that Gerrard needed to work on his 'tactical aspects' a bit more (these were a couple of seasons ago)- read the game a bit better and realise the best times to attack the spaces.

Also, I think we saw last season how Gerrard really showed how he has become more disciplined- he doesn't always act on his instinct to get forward all the time; and it's the way it needs to be if he's to play in a 2 man CM. Maybe it's been a major factor in Rafa playing Gerrard in the middle now- because he trusts him to be more tactically aware and know the best times to get forward, or to stay back?

So, in summary, it's about picking the right times.

And not leaving your central mid-field partner in the shit.

[a partridge in seat_5c]

Sure, I'll explain- or try to!

It's no good bombing forward all the time- it's important to choose when to join the attack and support the strikers. I'm sure I've seen Rafa quotes which said that Gerrard needed to work on his 'tactical aspects' a bit more (these were a couple of seasons ago)- read the game a bit better and realise the best times to attack the spaces.

Also, I think we saw last season how Gerrard really showed how he has become more disciplined- he doesn't always act on his instinct to get forward all the time; and it's the way it needs to be if he's to play in a 2 man CM. Maybe it's been a major factor in Rafa playing Gerrard in the middle now- because he trusts him to be more tactically aware and know the best times to get forward, or to stay back?

I don't think I've ever seen Stevie bombing forward recklessly to the detriment of the team, now, last season, the season before, or ever, so I'd say he was a pretty good judge of when to go and when not, so I don't think there's much improvement to be had there, if any

what Rafa may have wanted was for Stevie to just attack less, which yes is more disciplined but its also overly negative if applied across the board

this season it looks like we're going to play a more indisciplined game in general, as a team, suggesting Rafa has finally sussed out that he was being tactically overdisciplined during his first 3 years in charge, not that Gerrard has been an indisciplined player

can anyone remember Gerrard going on some wild indisciplined attacking rampage like the deranged fool he's made out to be, leading to us getting critically hit on the break and losing an important game because of it ? because I've been watching him 10 years now and I can't...

[a partridge in seat_5c]

So, in summary, it's about picking the right times.

And not leaving your central mid-field partner in the shit.

like when ?

name me one instance from the last decade that Gerrard left his central midfield partner critically in the shit

I bet you can't

if enough people talk shite for long enough, it becomes accepted as the truth

quite scary...

[BazC]

I don't think I've ever seen Stevie bombing forward recklessly to the detriment of the team, now, last season, the season before, or ever, so I'd say he was a pretty good judge of when to go and when not, so I don't think there's much improvement to be had there, if any

what Rafa may have wanted was for Stevie to just attack less, which yes is more disciplined but its also overly negative if applied across the board

this season it looks like we're going to play a more indisciplined game in general, as a team, suggesting Rafa has finally sussed out that he was being tactically overdisciplined during his first 3 years in charge, not that Gerrard has been an indisciplined player

can anyone remember Gerrard going on some wild indisciplined attacking rampage like the deranged fool he's made out to be, leading to us getting critically hit on the break and losing an important game because of it ? because I've been watching him 10 years now and I can't...

Galatasary at the start of last season may have been one such game.

[rednich85]

like when ?

name me one instance from the last decade that Gerrard left his central midfield partner critically in the shit

I bet you can't

if enough people talk shite for long enough, it becomes accepted as the truth

quite scary...

Put him on the spot mate. In his early years he probably did (I wont say he did, because I can't remember examples) but it was down to naivety

It's all about "game intelligence" and Rafa has instilled this in Gerrard. Gerarrd is now much more disciplined and as a result doesn't need to run as much (running for runnings sake) His runs now are methodical and full of purpose and much more effective

[a partridge in seat_5c]

It's all about "game intelligence" and Rafa has instilled this in Gerrard. Gerarrd is now much more disciplined and as a result doesn't need to run as much (running for runnings sake) His runs now are methodical and full of purpose and much more effective

Give over

Rafa has improved Gerrard in the same way Houllier discovered him

Gerrard's been a special special player almost since day one

you don't teach players of Gerrard's quality the instinct to run when it's right and don't run when it's not, they've just got it or they haven't and he's always had it. All coaches end up doing is making players think too much. If you've got to think what to do at that level of football you're fucked.

"Eh, wait a sec Stubbsy, I'm just thinking out me next move"

nah

[rednich85]

Give over

Rafa has improved Gerrard in the same way Houllier discovered him

Gerrard's been a special special player almost since day one

you don't teach players of Gerrard's quality the instinct to run when it's right and don't run when it's not, they've just got it or they haven't and he's always had it. All coaches end up doing is making players think too much. If you've got to think what to do at that level of football you're fucked.

"Eh, wait a sec Stubbsy, I'm just thinking out me next move"

nah

Christ!

I agree, a lot of it is natural and raw ability but believe it or not, the "instinct to run" is worked on hour after hour after bloody hour.

To say Rafa hasn't improved Gerarrd significantly is wrong (in my opinion of course)

Thinking is done in every game, the differnence between a good player, and world class player is "speed of thought"

Dont tell me everything done in a game is instinct, in that case its just a matter of getting Gerrard fit as a fiddle and never matter about ball work, as its so natural

No

[Mal]

like when ?

name me one instance from the last decade that Gerrard left his central midfield partner critically in the shit

I bet you can't

if enough people talk shite for long enough, it becomes accepted as the truth

quite scary...

I'll happily name that instance if you can name the instance where I said I disagreed with you.

I merely summarised BazC's point.

[cowtownred]

Its a pleasant debate.

Who is best?

Who to pair with whom, and against which opposition?

Shall we play the most naturally talented, get-forward, goalscoring midfielder in a generation?  (World class...)  OR/AND

The best tackling, move-starter, intelligent passer in the Premier League?  AND/OR

The finest game-reader, incisive creative passer in Europe?



What a glorious problem we have!

[Hunts Cross]

Its a pleasant debate.

Who is best?

Who to pair with whom, and against which opposition?

Shall we play the most naturally talented, get-forward, goalscoring midfielder in a generation?  (World class...)  OR/AND

The best tackling, move-starter, intelligent passer in the Premier League?  AND/OR

The finest game-reader, incisive creative passer in Europe?



What a glorious problem we have!

AMEN!

We have an embarrassment of riches; a horde of talented, committed players, whereby it doesn't seem to matter too much who we pick, or when, or whom they play against - they do well. And we are arguing?

[Sissoko78]

OK clearly you don't rate Masch as much as me. Well I'm not sure how i can convince you, other than to suggest that I think Rafa is smart enough over the course of this season to see who he's best two are. I'll come back to this thread then.

you convince people with facts.  instead of facts, your argument is "i said before the chelsea match masch should start b/c he and gerrard are obviously the in form pairing, and Alonso obviously hadn't picked up his level from his alleged stagnation at a scintillating standard in form last season" - who the fuck is going to be convinced by the drivel you are offering?

you're a fucking clown mate.

[Sissoko78]

Just do it. Just do what I've been saying... fit them all in... come on.... 4-3-3... you know it makes sense.

You might recall certain away games last year where Rafa went for 3 at the back, sometimes in a 3-4-3, other times it was closer to 3-5-2.  Three at the back definitely merits the extra security provided by a top notch holding player in front of them, so if he did something similar again it would probably increase the chances of each of Alonso, Gerrard and Masch on pitch at once.