Author Topic: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution  (Read 27091 times)

Offline TwatMan

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #120 on: July 6, 2013, 07:09:54 pm »
Yes I have. But I also have been to a dozen other third world democractic countries that are much worse than egypt. The poverty in India is unbelievable so is any of the stuff you mention. Abandoning the democractic process because of that is stupid. The opposition has played a much greater part in brining down egypt than the brotherhood, where were the police for all the time Morsi wanted security? And now they are ousted, the security becomes really strong. In egypt it is the military that calls the shots. They wanted MB down, he got no support from the opposition or judiciary or the police. It is delusional for egyptians to think military protects them, FFS they oppressed them brutally for years.

Sorry, U don't know much about India at all.
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #121 on: July 6, 2013, 07:52:35 pm »
Sure, he is democratically elected.
So was Hitler, anti seminism was nothing man I tell, it doesn't matter, because he came via the ballots.
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Offline SadRed

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #122 on: July 6, 2013, 08:09:39 pm »
So was Hitler, anti seminism was nothing man I tell, it doesn't matter, because he came via the ballots.

Tony Blair didnt listen to us when we all marched, should have got the military take over the UK, I tell you. Would have saved thousands of lives in Iraq.

Offline SadRed

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #123 on: July 6, 2013, 08:11:38 pm »
Sorry, U don't know much about India at all.

If you say so.India is that really prosperous nation where 30% of the population doesnt live on about $2 a day.

Look if you disagree with something I say, I respect that but try and come up with arguments.

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #124 on: July 6, 2013, 09:08:39 pm »
Tony Blair didnt listen to us when we all marched, should have got the military take over the UK, I tell you. Would have saved thousands of lives in Iraq.
Excuse me, but we're not England. A country that kept Thatcher in office for 11 years then let the taxpayer fund her funeral isn't the best example to be used.
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Offline alfonso

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #125 on: July 7, 2013, 02:23:30 am »
This is nasty I just watched footage on liveleak of some islamic nutjobs pushing some teenagers off a roof.

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #126 on: July 7, 2013, 04:09:19 am »
listen to this little fella. He is wise beyond his years, beyond most peoples as a matter of fact!

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Offline TwatMan

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #127 on: July 7, 2013, 10:04:23 pm »
If you say so.India is that really prosperous nation where 30% of the population doesnt live on about $2 a day.

Look if you disagree with something I say, I respect that but try and come up with arguments.
It's a waste of time. After all contributing 25% to World's GDP in 1750s to the state we are in now, makes one what happened, what went wrong. Battle of Plassey happened, East India company happened, unreserved transfer of wealth and looting happened so that Ingerlund can be a first world country.

Besides, comparing Egypt to India is contextually wrong. Here we don't have MB trying to change everything to Islam. We still uphold democracy and secularism, though however flawed it maybe. People fight for the right to be heard, here we are always free to tell, be heard and not acted upon. We cannot be compared to Egypt at all just on the basis of poverty. There are so many indicators, geopolitical machinations to be considered.

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Offline Packalacky

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #128 on: July 8, 2013, 11:54:18 am »
Excuse me, but we're not England. A country that kept Thatcher in office for 11 years then let the taxpayer fund her funeral isn't the best example to be used.

It's clear from your last couple of posts that you have a very weird vision of what democracy is.

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #129 on: July 8, 2013, 12:06:54 pm »
It's clear from your last couple of posts that you have a very weird vision of what democracy is.
Explain more?
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #130 on: July 8, 2013, 02:37:35 pm »
Dozens of Pro-Morsi supporters killed in Cairo

An early morning attack on a Muslim Brotherhood sit-in killed at least 40 people on Monday morning, taking the political conflict in Egypt to a disturbing new level. There have been many conflicting reports about how the incident started, who was responsible, and how many people were actually hurt, but there seems to be little doubt that around 3:30 a.m. local time, police or military forces opened fire on supporters of deposed president Mohammed Morsi, who had gathered outside the Republican Guard headquarters in Cairo. Muslim Brotherhood groups says they were unarmed and staging a peaceful sit-in, while military sources claim "terrorists" had stormed the building where Morsi is reportedly being held.

There was even some debate about what weapons were used and if the army deployed live ammunition, but evidence on the ground suggests they were indeed using deadly (or potentially deadly) weapons. This YouTube video even captured government forces shooting at protesters from nearby rooftops. (Warning: Video may disturbing for some.)

The Egyptian health ministry says 42 people were killed, but MB spokespeople put the number of injured as high as 500, calling the attack a "bloodbath" and a "massacre." The incident would be the deadliest since protestors took to the streets more than a week ago to demand Morsi's resignation. Opposition leader Mohamed ElBaradei condemned the latest round of violence.

 The violence also threatens to turn what began as peaceful outpouring of political protest into a full scale civil war. The assault has already derailed talks to form a new coalition government and hold new elections, as the second-biggest Islamist party, Al Nour, has now withdrawn from the negotiations. Muslim Brotherhood leaders have also called for Egyptians to rise up against the military, before it Egypt becomes "a new Syria."

Despite the deaths, there seems to be little sympathy for the Muslim Brotherhood , given their disastrous reign of the last year, but others recognize the danger of the army — which claims it was protecting the people and not grabbing power for itself — firing on its own citizens.

Meanwhile, the headquarters of the MB was closed after police claim more weapons were found inside. More clashes between demonstrators and the army are expected before the day is over.
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #131 on: July 8, 2013, 04:13:08 pm »
On the 30th of June, when protests erupted ahead of the Headquarters of the MB, their snipers killed 12 passerby citing that they had every right to protect themselves & their buildings. Now the pro Mursi demonstrators were trying to break into a military barracks and hitting live ammunition on the military, did you expect them to be welcomed?

It is a shame that 42 protesters were killed, but the MB leaders should be arrested, they are sending their youth as human shields and hiding behind them, inciting violence, promising martyrdom to these youth then crying wolf when the expected outcome happens. Disgusting attitude.
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #132 on: July 8, 2013, 04:27:17 pm »
So they were trying to break in, and not staging a sit-in?
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #133 on: July 8, 2013, 04:42:57 pm »
So they were trying to break in, and not staging a sit-in?
They were sitting in already since Friday & no one got a stitch. Ask yourself, why all of a sudden did hell break lose today?

If the army was against a sit in, they would have fired at them on Friday not on the 4th day of the sit in.
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Offline SadRed

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #134 on: July 8, 2013, 07:48:42 pm »
On the 30th of June, when protests erupted ahead of the Headquarters of the MB, their snipers killed 12 passerby citing that they had every right to protect themselves & their buildings. Now the pro Mursi demonstrators were trying to break into a military barracks and hitting live ammunition on the military, did you expect them to be welcomed?

It is a shame that 42 protesters were killed, but the MB leaders should be arrested, they are sending their youth as human shields and hiding behind them, inciting violence, promising martyrdom to these youth then crying wolf when the expected outcome happens. Disgusting attitude.

They shot 12 passerbys? What are you talking about??? Why the hell will they shoot passerbys?

Who were these then ? http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article3806787.ece This was the 3rd of July. Who killed them then??


Except every major international media outlet seems to question the military account. Doctors treating the dead question the militarys version. Its sickening that egyptian media outlets applaud after military gives their version of events and no questions asked. All pro-morsi media is banned, even Al Jazeera that has been operating in egypt for years in closed down. International media people are not being allowed in Tahrir square.

51 people are killed!!! 51 !! Who claim they were protesting peacefully! What is the difference between egypt's military and bashar al assad - both claim to be fighting terrorists? Or should we now forgive Bashar Al assad because needed to kill so many of his people because he is ACTUALLY fighting a lot of terrorists??

This is the most sick and twisted version of democracy I have ever seen.

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #135 on: July 8, 2013, 08:19:09 pm »
They shot 12 passerbys? What are you talking about??? Why the hell will they shoot passerbys?

Who were these then ? http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/world/middleeast/article3806787.ece This was the 3rd of July. Who killed them then??

It was on the 30th of June not the 3rd of July.

Quote
Except every major international media outlet seems to question the military account. Doctors treating the dead question the militarys version. Its sickening that egyptian media outlets applaud after military gives their version of events and no questions asked. All pro-morsi media is banned, even Al Jazeera that has been operating in egypt for years in closed down. International media people are not being allowed in Tahrir square.

The same international media who "mistakenly" put Pro Morsi headline on all Anti Morsi Yesterday then they blame people not accepting them, Al Jazeera has basically become the MB's mouthpiece and today seven of its reporters in protest of the channel's politics.

It is in their interest to put "Army creates massacre" instead of reporting it for it is really is. This creates more hits. Not a single news outlet have mentioned the fact that these protesters WERE armed.

Quote
51 people are killed!!! 51 !! Who claim they were protesting peacefully! What is the difference between egypt's military and bashar al assad - both claim to be fighting terrorists? Or should we now forgive Bashar Al assad because needed to kill so many of his people because he is ACTUALLY fighting a lot of terrorists??

This is the most sick and twisted version of democracy I have ever seen.
The number is 42. And these protesters are armed indeed, I live so close to the area and I know lots of people who live there and saw the entire events unfold from the beginning. It is way different that that of the MB and what the international media are saying, international media sided with one side over the other, simply put.
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Offline SadRed

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #136 on: July 8, 2013, 08:37:57 pm »
It was on the 30th of June not the 3rd of July.

Thats the date when it was published. Why dont you answer the pertinent question? Who killed them? And who bombed the offices of MB across the country? Why did army not protect them?

Quote

The same international media who "mistakenly" put Pro Morsi headline on all Anti Morsi Yesterday then they blame people not accepting them, Al Jazeera has basically become the MB's mouthpiece and today seven of its reporters in protest of the channel's politics.

It is in their interest to put "Army creates massacre" instead of reporting it for it is really is. This creates more hits. Not a single news outlet have mentioned the fact that these protesters WERE armed.

You are basically saying media is lying ??? But they were utmost truthful when they covered the tahrir square protests? Because that favoured anti-morsi protestors??

Quote
The number is 42. And these protesters are armed indeed, I live so close to the area and I know lots of people who live there and saw the entire events unfold from the beginning. It is way different that that of the MB and what the international media are saying, international media sided with one side over the other, simply put.

BBC and Guardian put figure at 51. AP puts it at 54. Unless you allege they are lying by increasing 10 more dead. Ofcourse such reputed institutions have a lot to gain from that!!

And why on earth would international media side with one over the other? What interest does Guardian or BBC have to take the side of MB??? I am sorry but this is just delusional. Why is pro morsi media banned?? Was the same done when egyptian media was passionately covering the protests at Tahrir square?

Trying to silence a large portion of egyptian population and calling them brainwashed and stupid is not the way democracy works. The protestors at tahrir said morsi was not inclusive, what are they now?? Political persecution, shutting down media outlets, shooting at protestors, calling for a candidate they like to be the PM is not the way to build democracy. Their demands must be listened to like the people in tahrir wanted their demands listened to.

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Offline SadRed

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #138 on: July 8, 2013, 09:15:46 pm »
http://m.gulfnews.com/news/region/egypt/al-jazeera-staff-resign-after-biased-coverage-1.1206924

Ok lets assume AJ is biased (even though they covered tharir square protests quite well over the years), what about BBC, Guardian, AP, Reuters, CNN?? If you believe they are all biased, you are kidding yourself. Egyptian media is unquestionably more biased than these.  They are not even present at MB protests. That is not what free media is. All media that was showing pro Morsi protests were turned off!

Also, its easy to make allegations about media bias - Gulf news - media outlet based in dubai. Who are biggest enemies of MB? UAE and Saudi governments because they scared of a popular revolt. Recently arrested over 50-60 MB members for plotting protests. Not surprising they were the first to congratulate egypt for ousting MB.

Regardless, I see no reason for reputed international media outlets to lie in a situation like this. That is just fooling one's own self.
« Last Edit: July 8, 2013, 09:20:49 pm by SadRed »

Offline warkstache

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #139 on: July 9, 2013, 04:02:21 am »
Egyptian Coup Shakes Turkey

Semih Idiz, July 5.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2013/07/egypt-coup-shakes-turkey.html



A boy on his bicycle balances a poster of Egypt's then-President Mohammed Morsi during a pro-Islamist demonstration in Istanbul, July 1, 2013. Pro-Islamist groups held a demonstration in Istanbul in support of Morsi on Tuesday; Morsi was deposed Wednesday. (photo by REUTERS/Murad Sezer)

Despite the obvious differences between the two countries, Turkey felt the political shock waves of the military coup in Egypt much more than any other country, due to its own conflict between secularists and Islamists. From the moment news of the coup broke, Turkish politicians, columnists and members of the public adopted strong positions based on where they stand in the midst of this growing divide.
 
No one supports the coup, of course, since this would be politically incorrect in a country whose own past military takeovers are widely condemned. But it is clear that the secularist camp is much more understanding of the reasons behind the events in Egypt than the Islamist camp.

The anger among Islamist supporters of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s Justice and Development Party (AKP) toward those who carried out this coup is tangible and vocal. The bottom line for AKP supporters is that ousted Egyptian President Mohammed Morsi is a victim of the enemies of democracy, pure and simple.

Clearly, there is more to it than a simplistic “majoritarian” interpretation of democracy. At any rate, it is obvious that the coup in Egypt has once again raised the specter for Turkey’s Islamists of being shut down by the military, though this is highly unlikely at this stage. Erdogan’s principle mission since coming to power has included clipping the political wings of the military and he has made serious headway in this regard.

Today, a large number of officers, including a former chief of the general staff, are in prison and standing trial for allegedly trying to undermine the AKP’s legitimate rule by illegal means. Only a few days ago the AKP came out with a bill aimed at amending Article 35 of the military’s “Internal Service Code” in order to do away with any grounds or incentives for a military intervention in the political domain. Article 35 effectively makes the military the guardian of Turkey’s secular order and has provided a basis for four coups in the past.

But the specter of military intervention that Egypt has evoked is not the only problem for Erdogan and the AKP. The Egyptian military has also dealt a serious blow to the unofficial Muslim Brotherhood fraternity and its international agenda, with which AKP members and followers sympathize.

The blow comes at a time when this fraternity has been making headway against secularists in various countries in the region, first by coming to power, and then by pushing Islam-based legislation through their respective parliaments with little regard for social diversity.

Shortly after his election, Morsi gave himself extraordinary powers and fashioned a constitution based on Islam in this manner. Erdogan is accused by Turkish secularists of attempting the same, given his desire to draft a constitution based on the AKP’s parliamentary majority, which, among other things, would enable him to become president in 2014 with extraordinary powers.

Egypt, however, provides an example now of how much social unrest this majoritarian imposition can cause, even if the country involved is predominantly Islamic. The fact that Erdogan cut his holiday short, and rushed to Istanbul on July 4 for a three-hour emergency meeting on Egypt with key members of his government, is noteworthy in this respect.

Sources close to the government sounded out by Al-Monitor remained tellingly silent when asked if the possible domestic ramifications of the images from Tahrir Square, coming as they do at a time when anti-government protests are continuing in Turkey, were also discussed during the emergency meeting. It is unlikely, however, that this was not discussed.

Meanwhile, it was inevitable that the opposition should latch on to the coup in Egypt to issue political warnings to Erdogan about Turkey. Kemal Kilicdaroglu, the leader of the main opposition Republican People's Party (CHP), underlined in a press statement that the Egyptian military’s intervention was unacceptable.

He nevertheless added that those who consider democracy to be solely represented by the ballot box should now see their mistake. “Those who govern the country have to lend an ear to everyone’s demands. To remain indifferent to these demands, to not see them and say ‘I have the majority of votes; I can do what I like’ is no longer valid in our day,” Kilicdaroglu said.

Devlet Bahceli, the leader of the Nationalist Movement Party (MHP), who rarely comments on world affairs, did not waste time in commenting. “The unfavorable developments and costly experience in Egypt must be read well by the AKP government, and lessons from these must be drawn,” he said in a statement. He too indicated that the coup in Egypt was unacceptable, but underlined that Morsi was not blameless.

A further blow to AKP officials was to see key members of the established Sunni order in the Middle East, from Mahmoud Abbas, the head of the Palestinian Authority, to Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah, actually welcoming the ouster of Morsi by sending messages of congratulations to Adly Mansour, who was appointed by the military as the head of Egypt’s transitional government.

Having remained silent for two days, Erdogan spoke out on July 5 during an address in Istanbul to a group of Turkish scientists. He expressed his views on the coup without going into his usual paroxysms of anger. By employing a didactic tone, he exhorted Egyptians “to study Turkey’s recent history well,” turning the tables on those calling on him to learn from developments in Egypt.

“Turkey’s experience is there to be seen and we would not want any other country to live through these things. Decades were lost by Turkey after coups. Every military coup crippled Turkey’s economy,” said Erdogan in his live televised remarks.

While remaining curiously silent on the coup's support in the Middle East, Erdogan did not waste the opportunity to take a dig at the West and accuse it of double standards. “At the moment I am surprised at the West. The West has still not been able to call this a coup,” he said cynically. He conceded that Morsi may have made mistakes, but stressed that the manner in which to deal with him was through the ballot box.

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu's statement on developments in Egypt pointed out that whatever the reasons behind recent events, it was unacceptable that an elected government should be toppled by means of a military coup. He nevertheless appeared to give the Egyptian military the benefit of the doubt. Not putting forward any demand for Morsi to be reinstated as the democratically elected president of Egypt, Davutoglu said, “It is necessary for the sake of Egypt’s political stability and social peace that free and just elections be held as soon as possible, and for democratic mechanisms to be operated.”

It is clear that Erdogan and members of his government have been seriously shaken with this unexpected turn of events in Egypt. It remains to be seen how they will react once the dust settles. Some argue they will become more radical in tone, and create new enemies for themselves in the Middle East in the process. Others. However. predict that they will become more moderate in order to prevent any impression that Turkey is also going the Egyptian way, with increased social unrest due to the government’s policies.

Whatever the case may turn out to be, it is certain that the Egyptian coup has unsettled Turkey’s Islamists, while providing secularists with new arguments. Time will tell which side is more democratic in the final analysis.

Semih Idiz is a contributing writer for Al-Monitor’s Turkey Pulse. A journalist who has been covering diplomacy and foreign policy issues for major Turkish newspapers for 30 years, his opinion pieces can be followed in the English-language Hurriyet Daily News. His articles have also been published in The Financial Times, The Times of London, Mediterranean Quarterly and Foreign Policy magazine.

Offline Packalacky

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #140 on: July 9, 2013, 05:47:15 am »
Military massacre of 51 people and hundreds injured. It seems the excuses are pouring in from people like Y2J.

Sickening. Egypt is sleepwalking into becoming another Syria in a very brutal and ugly way.

Quote
It began, according to the wounded, as dawn prayers were ending. Hundreds of members of the Muslim Brotherhood, supporters of the deposed president, Mohamed Morsi, had knelt in Salah Salem Street, one of Cairo's main thoroughfares, outside the headquarters of Egypt's Republican Guards at first light on Monday when the imam's chants were shattered by the sound of gunshots.

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #141 on: July 9, 2013, 06:26:13 am »
Military massacre of 51 people and hundreds injured. It seems the excuses are pouring in from people like Y2J.

Sickening. Egypt is sleepwalking into becoming another Syria in a very brutal and ugly way.
Excuses? What excuses?

Excuses that armed protesters attack the military and try to break into the Republican Guard HQ? In any other country they would not have been allowed a sit in for three full days with the army never attacking them, so why would they have been attacked without causing provocation?

Their leaders have been even video taped as saying that they will break into the building to free Mursi, unfortunately their leaders are the ones who simple promised the poor victims martyrdom while they were nowhere to be seen at the scene.

And before you start, since his ouster, the MB has caused trouble throughout all neighborhoods in Cairo & almost all of Egypt, killing copts in upper Egypt and some of the finest youth in the country, overall 87 people are dead since past Wednesday, but that is never mentioned in the western media, because it doesn't suit the agenda that the MB are moderate muslims and not some jihadist group just like Hamas & Al Qaida.
« Last Edit: July 9, 2013, 06:28:31 am by Y2J »
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Offline warkstache

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #142 on: July 9, 2013, 06:33:03 am »
So very melodramatic, packalacky. The imams chanting knees shatterred by the sickening smell of melting mozzarella cheese emanating from that Guardian link.


Offline Packalacky

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #143 on: July 9, 2013, 09:49:29 am »
So very melodramatic, packalacky. The imams chanting knees shatterred by the sickening smell of melting mozzarella cheese emanating from that Guardian link.

At this point I'd rather trust the views of journalists on the ground who are reporting independently. The Guardian, Aljazeera, Washington Post, NYT and the BBC are all reporting it, 42 people killed while doing a sit in....

It seems that Y2J has let his dislike for Morsi be an excuse for what the military is doing. They just gave the MB an incentive to escalate the protests.

This is going to get pretty ugly.

Edit:

WOuld just like to add that even the leader of the opposition in Egypt, Mohamed ElBaradel is calling for an independent investigation on what happened and said that the violence should be strongly condemned.
« Last Edit: July 9, 2013, 10:07:16 am by Packalacky »

Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #144 on: July 9, 2013, 10:17:38 am »
Wait I thought the media agenda was that the Brotherhood were evil jihadists and Mubarak should have still been in power. Definitely remember people complaining about that a year ago.
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #145 on: July 9, 2013, 12:25:03 pm »
Wait I thought the media agenda was that the Brotherhood were evil jihadists and Mubarak should have still been in power. Definitely remember people complaining about that a year ago.
Wrong.

I haven't seen the media saying the Mb were extremists in any sense.

People simply ignore the fact that they incite violence, are armed, call for jihad, promise martyrdom, try to let the country slide in a sectarian war, carry Al Qaida flags in their sit ins, called Jews as Apes & pigs, called for breaking into the Republican HQ to free Mursi on their dead bodies, killed 87 innocent people since Wednesday, Killed 12 passerby by their HQ on 30/6. People ignore that Mursi ordered a presidential sanction to free all terrorists from prisons who were accused of murder and killed innocent people, that 300 members of Hamas entered Cairo this past month. All of this while condemning the army against defending the country from terrorism.

I haven't seen one person defend how the US treats their prisoners in Guantanamo who are accused of terrorism.

Armed protesters, sitting in infront of a barracks for three days, inciting violence, intimidating the army and then firing at them and all of this & people don't expect the Army to react. Fuck me. Talk about hypocrisy.
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #146 on: July 9, 2013, 12:29:53 pm »
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #147 on: July 9, 2013, 12:52:35 pm »
Now hold on, you're just shifting things onto the US, who are terrible at some of the things they do but has no relation to what's going on here.

It's a fact that a year ago, some people in the media wanted Mubarak to remain in power because in their eyes, a dictator imposing stability was preferable than chaotic democracy. A LOT of people called them out on this misguided agenda, and supported the revolution instead. The first group then turned to criticising the MB after they won the election, saying that they are evil jihadists. There were lots of stuff going on about how bad they were.

Now according to you, the international media has done a full 180, and supports the Muslim Brotherhood for some reason. I don't accept that there's some big media conspiracy going on. People are simply criticising this second uprising because of its many flaws. It doesn't mean they have an agenda.
« Last Edit: July 9, 2013, 12:54:24 pm by Finn Solomon »
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #148 on: July 9, 2013, 01:07:46 pm »
Now hold on, you're just shifting things onto the US, who are terrible at some of the things they do but has no relation to what's going on here.

It's a fact that a year ago, some people in the media wanted Mubarak to remain in power because in their eyes, a dictator imposing stability was preferable than chaotic democracy. A LOT of people called them out on this misguided agenda, and supported the revolution instead. The first group then turned to criticising the MB after they won the election, saying that they are evil jihadists. There were lots of stuff going on about how bad they were.

Now according to you, the international media has done a full 180, and supports the Muslim Brotherhood for some reason. I don't accept that there's some big media conspiracy going on. People are simply criticising this second uprising because of its many flaws. It doesn't mean they have an agenda.
Nah, the US demanded Mubarak to step down. As a matter of fact, the US announced Mubarak would step down on the 10th of February only for him to announce that he is staying. The next day they told the Army to oust him which they did.

Compare this to what Kerry said on here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D2DDywwLJ0 and to what Anne Patterson has been spouting and the meetings she was trying to hold with opposition leaders to stop the protests and you'd see why the US were trying to protect the MB. http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/74476/Egypt/Politics-/Egypts-Popular-Current-slams-US-ambassadors-meetin.aspx

The plan was simple, move Palestinians to Sinai & free up the Gaza strip, and make Sinai an area for the likes of Hamas to do whatever they want. Hamas members were let go by Mursi and the MB allowed names previously not allowed to enter the country to fly from & to the country multiple times, all of Egypt's resources were diverted to Gaza. It is no wonder that when the protests started the electricity cut offs and the shortage of fuel disappeared, while Gaza suffered from the same problems.
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #149 on: July 9, 2013, 02:13:24 pm »
Don't forget who decides what's newsworthy.  Nobody should trust the media 100%.  That's all I'm saying because the other issues are beyond my experience.
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #150 on: July 9, 2013, 04:18:02 pm »
Don't forget who decides what's newsworthy.  Nobody should trust the media 100%.  That's all I'm saying because the other issues are beyond my experience.
I am basing it on what a lot of people I know who live there told me, it really isn't what the MB is saying.
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #151 on: July 9, 2013, 04:29:18 pm »
Not implying one way or another mate.  Just pointing out it's the powers that be - whoever 'they' may be who decide, not only what is newsworthy, but also how it is reported.
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #152 on: July 9, 2013, 09:02:14 pm »
Cairo clashes: 'I saw both sides shooting at each other from my balcony'

Mirna El Helbawi, 21, is an editor of Egypt's "7 Days" magazine. Her flat is beside the Republican Guard headquarters, and she told Harriet Alexander what she saw of the Cairo clashes that killed at least 50 people.

"It was just after prayers had finished, around 4am on Monday morning, when I heard noises on the street below.

The pro-Morsi people had been there for about three days – holding their demonstrations in front of the mosque. There had been a bit of trouble actually, because they were asking all the people in my building for identification before allowing them access. I think they were scared that we would have guns or throw things at them – there were even fights between the protesters and my neighbours, who were angry at not being allowed into their own homes. I had to walk a long way round, and as you know Cairo is very crowded, so I wasn't happy.

My flat is on the 14th floor, and I was with a friend.

We heard shouts of "Allah Akbar" and the sound of people running, so we went onto the balcony to see what was happening.

There was a huge number of troops, and a large crowd of protesters.

The police and army threw tear gas. Then the pro-Morsi people threw stones. There were running battles, right below my window. They were totally wild clashes. We couldn't stay on the balcony because the tear gas was too strong, so only came out for a moment to look, then went back inside again. I cried a lot last night!

Through the clouds of tear gas I saw pro-Morsi people shooting at the troops from the roof of the mosque. I saw it with my own eyes.

The troops ran away, but then came back not long after, and they fired at the pro-Morsi people. I didn't see any plain-clothed people among the army or police; it was just them, firing on the pro-Morsi crowd.

Inside the mosque I could see a lot of people stuck, and hear the women screaming. This went on and on, backwards and forwards with battles until about 9am.

It ended when the army arrested a lot of people – a lot. Only men were arrested; not any of the women.

I heard that one soldier and two policemen were killed, but I have no idea if that's true.

I'm really surprised at this because it was supposed to be a safe protest. I've been to the protests outside the Ittihadiya Presidential Palace and they were totally peaceful. But perhaps that is because previously it was the people versus the Muslim Brotherhood; this was the army and police versus the Brotherhood.

Most of my neighbours do not support Morsi, although some do.

But I don't think this is the end of it.

We are seeing the price of not wanting Morsi any more. It's really shameful that innocent people are being driven onto the streets to die – driven by both sides."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/10167263/Cairo-clashes-I-saw-both-sides-shooting-at-each-other-from-my-balcony.html?fb
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Offline Finn Solomon

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #153 on: July 10, 2013, 12:25:06 am »
Nah, the US demanded Mubarak to step down. As a matter of fact, the US announced Mubarak would step down on the 10th of February only for him to announce that he is staying. The next day they told the Army to oust him which they did.

Compare this to what Kerry said on here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D2DDywwLJ0 and to what Anne Patterson has been spouting and the meetings she was trying to hold with opposition leaders to stop the protests and you'd see why the US were trying to protect the MB. http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/74476/Egypt/Politics-/Egypts-Popular-Current-slams-US-ambassadors-meetin.aspx

The plan was simple, move Palestinians to Sinai & free up the Gaza strip, and make Sinai an area for the likes of Hamas to do whatever they want. Hamas members were let go by Mursi and the MB allowed names previously not allowed to enter the country to fly from & to the country multiple times, all of Egypt's resources were diverted to Gaza. It is no wonder that when the protests started the electricity cut offs and the shortage of fuel disappeared, while Gaza suffered from the same problems.

The US govt isn't its media though.
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #154 on: July 10, 2013, 12:50:29 am »
This one is quite disturbing.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/egypt/10170307/Ahmed-Assem-the-Egyptian-photographer-who-chronicled-his-own-death.html

Ahmed Assem: the Egyptian photographer who chronicled his own death. The grainy film captures the soldier as he shoots from his vantage point on top of the yellow stone building.

He fires more than once and then, suddenly, turns the rifle and points toward the camera lens.

The film ends – and so too ended the life of Ahmed Samir Assem.

The 26-year-old photographer for Egypt’s Al-Horia Wa Al-Adala newspaper was among a least 51 people killed after security forces opened fire on a large crowd that had camped outside the Egyptian army’s Republican Guard officers’ club in Cairo, where Mohammed Morsi, the deposed president, was believed to be in detention.

Offline Alphaville

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #155 on: July 10, 2013, 05:22:43 am »
This coup might be just what the doctor ordered to safeguard a future Egypt which respects the protesters' demands for economic development, real human rights and enlightened openness.  I am not a fan of the Brotherhood and hold no romantic ideals of what life would be like were they given the time and legitimacy to enact their version of "democracy". 

That being said, I fear that some of the proponents of the army's actions are foolhardy in dismissing the dangerous precedent being set by having two regime changes in quick succession. Populist expression is a vital component of democratization but quick-trigger backtracking is not.  The protesters lacked the governing nous to properly navigate the murky waters of the post-Mubarak political landscape and paid the price by splitting the "liberal" vote.  They lost that round.  The result was that an incompetent ultra-conservative president was elected. In an ideal world, they would have licked their wounds, regrouped, re-financed, streamlined their political structure and tried again at the next election.  To what extent this would have been feasible in an Egypt awash with Morsi's reforms is up for debate, and might have required more perspective than the protesters were apparently willing to gain. I have no doubt that the Brotherhood were trying to consolidate their position - as demonstrated in the predictable appointment of Brotherhood supporters to high ranking positions in the judiciary - but which political party wouldn't?  The more troubling developments were the Brotherhood's treatment of dissenting media voices and their increasingly overt penchant for inflammatory salafism in response to their conservative base, two issues which point to Morsi's lack of leadership and foresight.

There is also a tendency among some in the anti-Morsi camp to minimize the allegedly reprehensible actions of the army in bringing about regime change.  Mass arrests and killings should be avoided as much as possible, that goes without saying. Reverse justification by pointing to the past or current actions of Morsi thugs is lazy and betrays a dangerous tit-for-tat-ism unbecoming of a movement based on democratic ideals.  The power struggle in Egypt is a complicated thing, all sorts of nastiness will be undertaken by both camps in the name of a better Egypt, it would be naive to think the opposite.  Equally dangerous is the seductive need to explain all past, present and future decisions taken by every stake holder by weaving convoluted conspiracy theories. The American government controls The Guardian newspaper which in turn support the Muslim Brotherhood because they have a secret deal with Israel who are happy that they won't have to deal with Gaza? Yeah, that could be… Or maybe The Guardian and other media are reporting what they believe to be true.

I should add that a number of Morsi's failures were pre-ordained given the failed economic policies of the previous regime as well as the need to purge the state's ranks of pro-Mubarak stooges. I'm not convinced that anyone else would have faired much better. Ironically, Morsi's election and the failure of his rhetoric-inspired leadership might point future political discourse in a healthy, objective, fact-based, direction which would be much more relevant for the lives of most Egyptians: establishing a fundamental sense of security and re-establishing some sort of economic engine for the country. 
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #156 on: July 15, 2013, 12:10:23 am »
Was following this thread earlier this month. Was great to read the thoughts of people from both sides of the divide in Egypt. Any updates?
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #157 on: July 15, 2013, 05:12:46 am »
Excuse me, but we're not England. A country that kept Thatcher in office for 11 years then let the taxpayer fund her funeral isn't the best example to be used.

You really are not helping your cause there mate.  Thatcher for all I despise her was elected three times by the greedy self-interested British public.  The thing about democracy is that you don't always get the government you want.  In fact, in my case it means that you pretty much never get the government you want.  The thing is though, you do get to easily get rid of governments that nobody wants anymore.
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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #158 on: July 17, 2013, 12:24:58 pm »
Nah, the US demanded Mubarak to step down. ]





The qualifier here, which is extremely important is this, the US only started talking about Mubarak stepping down after the military turned against him and his position became untenable. Before this they were calling for dialogue and reform.

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Re: Egypt's second wave of the Revolution
« Reply #159 on: July 18, 2013, 05:24:34 pm »
Great article on the Guardian chronicalling the day 51 people lost their lives. Great investigative journalism:

Killing in Cairo: the full story of the Republican Guards' club shootings