Poll

Two Votes this time out

Ron Yeats
Phil Thompson
Emlyn Hughes
Alan Hansen
Mark Lawerson
Sami Hyypia
Tommy Smith
Stephane Henchoz
Mark Wright
Jamie Carragher

Author Topic: The Greatest player Debate Vote Open. 1964 - 2009. Round 3 - The Centre Backs  (Read 47501 times)

Offline Neil D

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Hansen and Hughes.

Hyppia over Hughes? sort it out lads.

Problem is how many people on here ever saw Hughes play? Do people that old even use the internet?  ;) 

To remember his appearances for Liverpool with any clarity or insight you would have to have been born in the 1960s at the latest!

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Problem is how many people on here ever saw Hughes play? Do people that old even use the internet?  ;) 

To remember his appearances for Liverpool with any clarity or insight you would have to have been born in the 1960s at the latest!
Was.

And don't be cheeky, you young whippersnapper.  ;)

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Whose this Mark Lawerson? was he any good?

Seriously though either I should become a lawyer or RAWK's a bit clueless. Carra 2 votes behind Lawrenson, 16 ahead of Yeats and 18 ahead of Thommo. I love him to death but seriously?
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Sarge had a tough job picking the list. Gary Gillespie and Larry Lloyd are probably the other two of the top dozen since 1964.

Gillespie was originally suggested by Sarge but he was persuaded to replace him with Tommy Smith. Smith was in the right-back list but Nicol made the right and left-back lists so it's not set in stone but that's why Smith wasn't originally in this poll.

Personally I'd have Gillespie in before Mark Wright and probably Henchoz but that's just me; it doesn't really matter either way because none of them would threaten the top of the list.

Here are all twelve, in order of appearances:

Appearances / Goals

Hughes   665 / 49
Smith   638 / 48
Hansen   620 / 14
Carragher   577 / 5
Thompson   477 / 13
Hyypia   464 / 35
Yeats   454 / 16
Lawrenson   356 / 18
Lloyd   218 / 5
Gillespie   214 / 16
Wright   210 / 9
Henchoz   205 / 0

My gripe is not with the list selection (we should only warmly thank Sarge and the people who have done the write-ups) but with the votes themselves; I absolutely love Sami but there's no way he should be so far ahead of Emlyn Hughes, Mark Lawrenson, Phil Thompson and Tommy Smith.

:wave


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Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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Problem is how many people on here ever saw Hughes play? Do people that old even use the internet?  ;) 

To remember his appearances for Liverpool with any clarity or insight you would have to have been born in the 1960s at the latest!

I'm 30 and can probably count on two hands the amount of times I saw Hansen play, as for hughes it's never.

But through reading books, watching old games and videos and by listening to what fellow team mates and managers say about them, it's easy to pick out the greats of yester year ahead of the likes of Hyppia, who we are used to seeing all the time.

This is The greatest player debate, not the greatest player you have seen in your lifetime while supporting the club debate.

Younger posters need to remember that.

That said, so far I'm in for

                                           Reina

Neal                     Hughes               Hansen             Nicol

Offline Ron

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This is The greatest player debate, not the greatest player you have seen in your lifetime while supporting the club debate.

Younger posters need to remember that.
You are absolutely right.
However, it is really hard to scale players you have not seen much of.
Older people are still talking about Billy Liddell with lots of passion.
But for me, what can I say about him ? I have only seen a few black and white clips of the man.
Where do I fit him in ? Was he better than Owen ? Or Rush ? I just can't be sure.

Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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You are absolutely right.
However, it is really hard to scale players you have not seen much of.
Older people are still talking about Billy Liddell with lots of passion.
But for me, what can I say about him ? I have only seen a few black and white clips of the man.
Where do I fit him in ? Was he better than Owen ? Or Rush ? I just can't be sure.

Well, when it gets to that, for me he has to be in contention.

Bob Pailsey is on record as saying Liddell was the greatest LFC player he ever saw. Thats player and not forward. I suppose Rush would go down as a greater Liverpool player than Owen, so concluding that Liddel was greater than Owen is not that far fetched.

That said, Liddell will be the only player from before the 60's that any serious Liverpool fan has to consider.

Offline Neil D

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I'm 30 and can probably count on two hands the amount of times I saw Hansen play, as for hughes it's never.

But through reading books, watching old games and videos and by listening to what fellow team mates and managers say about them, it's easy to pick out the greats of yester year ahead of the likes of Hyppia, who we are used to seeing all the time.

This is The greatest player debate, not the greatest player you have seen in your lifetime while supporting the club debate.

Younger posters need to remember that.

I disagree.

I've read books, watched old games and videos and listened to what fellow team mates and managers say about older players but that does not compare to seeing a player in the flesh week in, week out.

It's not easy to pick out the greats of yesteryear ahead of the likes of Hyppia, who we are used to seeing all the time, because Sami is light years ahead of any other defender we have had in the last 20 years and I've watched nearly every one of his games for Liverpool.

Talking about reading the opinions of team mates, old managers etc... who said this? "He reminded me of myself in many ways - but I wasn't as good in possession as Sami."

It was Ron Yeats, a player featured in this poll. So there is a great of yesteryear I wouldn't pick ahead of Sami - from what I have read and watched he didn't have Sami's finesse or read the game as well, but he was more physically imposing.

Similarly speaking to my dad and reading a lot about Hughes, many people say he wasn't as comfortable when he was played at LB and that his best position was in fact DM, not CB. That's certainly an opinion my dad has always shared. So why on the basis of that evidence and given my own personal experience would I pick Yeats or Hughes at CB ahead of Sami Hyypia, the finest CB in the Premiership era in my opinion?

Older posters need to remember that nostalgia clouds the memory and just because Emlyn was a great midfielder doesn't mean he was a greater centre half than Sami. The only players I think deserve that status are Hansen and Lawrenson.

Offline Neil D

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That said, Liddell will be the only player from before the 60's that any serious Liverpool fan has to consider.

What about Elisha Scott? How do you pick Clemence ahead of him with any certainty unless you saw both play? You can't go back and watch videos of Elisha Scott you can only read about him and his records.

This is what makes this so tough.

Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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I disagree.

I've read books, watched old games and videos and listened to what fellow team mates and managers say about older players but that does not compare to seeing a player in the flesh week in, week out.

It's not easy to pick out the greats of yesteryear ahead of the likes of Hyppia, who we are used to seeing all the time, because Sami is light years ahead of any other defender we have had in the last 20 years and I've watched nearly every one of his games for Liverpool.

Talking about reading the opinions of team mates, old managers etc... who said this? "He reminded me of myself in many ways - but I wasn't as good in possession as Sami."

It was Ron Yeats, a player featured in this poll. So there is a great of yesteryear I wouldn't pick ahead of Sami - from what I have read and watched he didn't have Sami's finesse or read the game as well, but he was more physically imposing.

Similarly speaking to my dad and reading a lot about Hughes, many people say he wasn't as comfortable when he was played at LB and that his best position was in fact DM, not CB. That's certainly an opinion my dad has always shared. So why on the basis of that evidence and given my own personal experience would I pick Yeats or Hughes at CB ahead of Sami Hyypia, the finest CB in the Premier League era in my opinion?

Older posters need to remember that nostalgia clouds the memory and just because Emlyn was a great midfielder doesn't mean he was a greater centre half than Sami. The only players I think deserve that status are Hansen and Lawrenson.

Fair points if I voted for Yates, but I didn't. I voted for Hansen and Hughes.

You may have a fair point about hughes at either Left back of Centre mid, but I suspect he won't be selected for that. So Hughes has to be in any all time 11 if you ask me, even at the expense of Hyypia. Besides if you are going buy your reckoning of seeing players in the flesh being a better indicator, how can you possibly justify picking any player, say pre 1990 when you were around 9 years old?

Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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What about Elisha Scott? How do you pick Clemence ahead of him with any certainty unless you saw both play? You can't go back and watch videos of Elisha Scott you can only read about him and his records.

This is what makes this so tough.

I don't think he presents the same problem as Liddel.

I suppose you could argue as case for Scottl being our best ever goalie, but I think it's fair to say that a goalie will never be classed as a clubs greates ever, well not us anyway. The problem Liddel presents is that at some point in the last centuary he was regarded by many as our greatest ever Player.

Offline electricghost

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I don't think he presents the same problem as Liddel.

I suppose you could argue as case for Scottl being our best ever goalie, but I think it's fair to say that a goalie will never be classed as a clubs greates ever, well not us anyway. The problem Liddel presents is that at some point in the last centuary he was regarded by many as our greatest ever Player.

Neither Scott or Liddel are up for consideration in these polls as the cut off is 1964.
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Offline MNAA

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It looks like it's going to be Jockie & Sami, which highlights the problem with these polls. Sami has been brilliant for us in recent years but a better player than Emlyn or Lawro?

Outstanding effort by all but not that easy to get it right. The later players will always hold some sort of advantage over players from older days.

Sami had been good but Sami is not even Top 5, let alone #2. And do not forget, we're voting for Lawrenson the defender par excellence, not Lawrenson the pundit.

Hansen and Lawrenson. Hughes trailing just slightly behind. We certainly had been spoilt rotten with some of the finest central defenders
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Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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Neither Scott or Liddel are up for consideration in these polls as the cut off is 1964.

That clears that one up, but to be fair to me, depsite not knowing the rules, I didn't bring Liddel up  :P, although i stand by what I said about him.

Offline shanklyboy

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Older posters need to remember that nostalgia clouds the memory and just because Emlyn was a great midfielder doesn't mean he was a greater centre half than Sami. The only players I think deserve that status are Hansen and Lawrenson.

That's a big assumption Neil.
Older posters have a far better insight into these players than many of the voters on here.
You only have to look at some of the players receiving very low votes to see that it's based on who people have seen.
I imagine if a poll came up to decide who should go into the team.....Hunt or Baros, there would be some who picked the latter because they saw him play.

The whole point of this is to try and convey to those that didn't see these players in the flesh, exactly how good they were.
It's clear though that some people haven't actually read the write-ups given some of the comments made, and based their vote on what they know. It's as though they have made their minds up and therefore don't need to change it.
I'll admit to doing that initially with one poll, but the write-ups gave me a great deal of thought and on one occasion I actually changed my mind.

Speaking from a personal viewpoint, I've seen every player in every poll up to now. I would think that gives me and people like me an advantage when making an informed choice.

It doesn't necessarily follow that we are going to pick an older player simply because we are wallowing in nostalgia or looking at it through rose tinted glasses.

A bit more credit is due than that.
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Offline electricghost

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That clears that one up, but to be fair to me, depsite not knowing the rules, I didn't bring Liddel up  :P, although i stand by what I said about him.

No problem, and I agree with your earlier post regarding being able to make choices about players you haven't actually seen play.
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Offline Mad Men

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I went with Lawrenson and Hansen; an outstanding pair in the heart of the defence. They were effective, efficient and defended well as a unit.

And highly successful in league and cup victories.
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Offline Ron

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That clears that one up, but to be fair to me, depsite not knowing the rules, I didn't bring Liddel up  :P, although i stand by what I said about him.
I only tried to explain the difficulty in picking players you have never really seen in action, I used Liddell as an example because everybody knows about him but only few on here have actually seen him play.

Offline Joe Rogans Chin

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I only tried to explain the difficulty in picking players you have never really seen in action, I used Liddell as an example because everybody knows about him but only few on here have actually seen him play.

No your right, it is difficult.
Once the final result is published i don't think many will agree.

Offline redmark

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I voted for Lawrenson. Apologies to Hughes and Thompson.

How did 30 people NOT vote for Hansen?
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Well, in the end it was fairly easy.

Who was the best defensively? - Ron Yeats

Who was the best 'footballing CB'? - Alan Hansen

Not many on here will have seen the 'Colossus' so I forgive you.

Not everyone will have seen Hansen - those that did and didn't vote for him want shooting.  ;D
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Hansen goes straight in for me.

Then who next?

Carra for his suberb display in the CL final.
Yeats, Smith, Hyypia gave their heart and their soul.
Thompson and Lawrenson were also very good. Lawrenson was almost a good a ball player and defender as Hansen.

Mark Wright and Stephane Henchoz were also very good players but in my opinion they are up against the very best in this poll.

However for his sheer determination, sheer exuberance and sheer love of the club it has to be Crazy Horse (Hughes). For those who didn't see him then he was like a duracell toy........he ran and ran and ran and never ever gave up.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2009, 07:22:28 pm by stockdam »
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Offline Forbsie

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Hansen was the easy choice.

In the end my other vote went to Hughes. Give nothing less than 100% but honestly could have easily went for one of the others.
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Carragher getting so many votes is crazy. Good honest lad Jamie but nowhere near the level of the best players on that list.

Offline Forbsie

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Carragher getting so many votes is crazy. Good honest lad Jamie but nowhere near the level of the best players on that list.

Probably due to younger posters not having the joys of seeing some of the older players at their peak?

If Kenny Dalglish had simply played football for Liverpool he would be an Anfield hero. However, the fact that he managed the club to even greater success guarantees him the status of a legend.

Offline Mad Men

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I voted for Lawrenson. Apologies to Hughes and Thompson.

How did 30 people NOT vote for Hansen?


Probably not even born yet to have watched him play....my kids have no clue who Hansen is in all honesty and the nephews think he is a tv pundit who never played footie...so go figure.

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Offline howes hound

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Quote
It was Ron Yeats, a player featured in this poll. So there is a great of yesteryear I wouldn't pick ahead of Sami - from what I have read and watched he didn't have Sami's finesse or read the game as well, but he was more physically imposing.

You're right on your first two comparisons but not the last one. I stood next to Yeats when I got his autograph outside the players entrance in the mid-60s and after seeing him on the pitch and listening to all the hyperbole about his size, I was surprised. Tallish but no giant, and broad-shouldered but hardly a heavyweight. As I said in another thread I think he would have had a problem with today's big strikers.

I voted for Sami and Hansen. I totally agree with the comparisons of Hughes with Gerrard but Emlyn was still playing a Gerrard role when I first left the UK and I saw little of him as centre half. Always think of him as a roving midfielder and our best up to Gerrard in that position.

As others have said, it's so difficult to vote for someone you haven't seen and that's what makes these polls a bit frustrating. My old man used to go on and on about Elisha Scott but there's no way I could vote for him in any poll against somebody like Ray Clemence after seeing Ray in action so many times. Arguing for Liddell in polls over the years is like trying to represent somebody in court with no witnesses and next to no evidence.
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It's all just a matter of oppinion, or should we have made the pole Hansen and pick one more ?
Some players like Carra and Hyypia have slogged away in a team that didn't win the league.
I grew up watching Hughes and Hanson so they always stand out for me.

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Cheers for the explanation..appreciate it mate...

No worries, sport!

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Probably not even born yet to have watched him play....my kids have no clue who Hansen is in all honesty and the nephews think he is a tv pundit who never played footie...so go figure.



Wasn't it Rob Jones who said one of his kids saw him on the telly playing against Man Utd and said "What are you doing there"
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Offline shanklyboy

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You're right on your first two comparisons but not the last one. I stood next to Yeats when I got his autograph outside the players entrance in the mid-60s and after seeing him on the pitch and listening to all the hyperbole about his size, I was surprised. Tallish but no giant, and broad-shouldered but hardly a heavyweight. As I said in another thread I think he would have had a problem with today's big strikers.


It's strange you should say that mate.
As you can see from my write-up I was amazed at the size of Rowdie on the pitch.
I saw him close up at Melwood and he still looked massive. You are right he wasn't bulky, but he was solid muscle.
I think he'd have no trouble with the physical game. Look at Hansen and Thompson. Both stick insects.
I also saw him outside Anfield in the 80s and he looked even bigger than 6' 3".
Then about 3 years ago I was at a junior game and was standing about 6ft away from him and I towered over him at 6' 1".
They do say you shrink as you get older, but for a man in his 70s he cuts a fine figure.

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Offline Neil D

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That's a big assumption Neil.
Older posters have a far better insight into these players than many of the voters on here.
You only have to look at some of the players receiving very low votes to see that it's based on who people have seen.
I imagine if a poll came up to decide who should go into the team.....Hunt or Baros, there would be some who picked the latter because they saw him play.

The whole point of this is to try and convey to those that didn't see these players in the flesh, exactly how good they were.
It's clear though that some people haven't actually read the write-ups given some of the comments made, and based their vote on what they know. It's as though they have made their minds up and therefore don't need to change it.
I'll admit to doing that initially with one poll, but the write-ups gave me a great deal of thought and on one occasion I actually changed my mind.

Speaking from a personal viewpoint, I've seen every player in every poll up to now. I would think that gives me and people like me an advantage when making an informed choice.

It doesn't necessarily follow that we are going to pick an older player simply because we are wallowing in nostalgia or looking at it through rose tinted glasses.

A bit more credit is due than that.


Yes I agree that older posters do have a better insight because they can compare players with more knowledge and authority having seen all these players playing regularly at the time. But at the same time people naturally tend to lean towards their favourites from their era (their childhood, or youth) and perhaps don’t take into account the relative standards of other teams in the division and other players compared to those standards at other times. Fowler was my hero, but I appreciate that the standard of defending in the Premiership is higher today than it was in the mid-1990s and that has to be taken into account. There is a reason forwards seldom top 30 league goals now, however in the mid-90s when teams were far less organised before the influx of world class coaches and defenders were still sought for their physicality first and foremost Robbie and Shearer hit 30 goals in consecutive seasons. Likewise did Emlyn face attackers of the quality of Henry, Torres, Ronaldo – truly world class strikers – in England in the 1970s? When we dominated the league in the 1980s was it as tough as it is now?

I read all the write-ups but what strikes me about Hughes for example (and why I mentioned nostalgia and why I think it might be clouding some people’s opinions) is that this is the CB category and a lot of the memories seem to be based on his time as a midfielder, the goals he scored, his energy and work rate and all round game. But was he a better pure defender than Sami? Did he read the game as well, was he as clean a tackler (Sami was rarely booked) and was he as commanding in the air? I’m not so sure.

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Sarge, I only voted once oops, can you add my 2nd vote for Alan Hansen. My first was for Crazy Horse, but it was a difficult pick.

That said, Emlyn's heart and Hansen's technical ability would make for a fantastic pairing.

Its not just picking your two favourites, I had to think about who would play well together, and with the other defence we've picked, and I'm convinced that Carra would fit into any team with attacking LB/RB cos he defends so well, but at the end of the day, Hansen's cool and Hughes' persona would lift and enhance any Liverpool team greatly.
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Sarge, I only voted once oops, can you add my 2nd vote for Alan Hansen. My first was for Crazy Horse, but it was a difficult pick.

That said, Emlyn's heart and Hansen's technical ability would make for a fantastic pairing.

Its not just picking your two favourites, I had to think about who would play well together, and with the other defence we've picked, and I'm convinced that Carra would fit into any team with attacking LB/RB cos he defends so well, but at the end of the day, Hansen's cool and Hughes' persona would lift and enhance any Liverpool team greatly.

Ok but read the bloody posts in future.

Bloody MODS.

;D
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It has to be HANSEN. There was only one other centre back in the world game better than him at the time. That was LAWRENSEN.

It's disappointing to see such a pitiful vote for Lawro, despite the great write-up. It can only be that younger fans who never saw him (and never saw Hansen either) refuse to consider voting for the sarcy fat bastard who sits on the Football Focus couch. Pity. He was everything you want in a centre back and was a major reason why Liverpool were streets ahead of any other football club in the world in the early-mid 1980s. With the Lawrenson and Hansen at the back we played keep ball wherever we went. Lawro, in particular, had the skill and calmness to work the ball out from the back every single time. He had an Iniesta-quality about him in the sense that he absoluitely didn't mind receiving the ball under pressure - "Just give the fucker to me, I'll deal with it". I don't ever remember him hoofing. He must have done it once or twice in his career, but not in front of me.

He was also lightning quick, brave, ice cool, the most beautiful slide tackler in world football, astonishing recovery place, brilliant leap and strong header of the ball, wonderfully balanced and two footed. Lawro also scored important goals.

Finally, along with Souness, he was the player of the match in Liverpool's greatest European victory (v Roma in Roma). Check out his tackle on Nela when it's 1-1. It should be knighted.

PS - Gillespie should have been on that wonderful list.
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Offline Sarge

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It has to be HANSEN. There was only one other centre back in the world game better than him at the time. That was LAWRENSEN.

It's disappointing to see such a pitiful vote for Lawro, despite the great write-up. It can only be that younger fans who never saw him (and never saw Hansen either) refuse to consider voting for the sarcy fat bastard who sits on the Football Focus couch. Pity. He was everything you want in a centre back and was a major reason why Liverpool were streets ahead of any other football club in the world in the early-mid 1980s. With the Lawrenson and Hansen at the back we played keep ball wherever we went. Lawro, in particular, had the skill and calmness to work the ball out from the back every single time. He had an Iniesta-quality about him in the sense that he absoluitely didn't mind receiving the ball under pressure - "Just give the fucker to me, I'll deal with it". I don't ever remember him hoofing. He must have done it once or twice in his career, but not in front of me.

He was also lightning quick, brave, ice cool, the most beautiful slide tackler in world football, astonishing recovery place, brilliant leap and strong header of the ball, wonderfully balanced and two footed. Lawro also scored important goals.

Finally, along with Souness, he was the player of the match in Liverpool's greatest European victory (v Roma in Roma). Check out his tackle on Nela when it's 1-1. It should be knighted.

PS - Gillespie should have been on that wonderful list.

Great piece yorkie and i agree 100%.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2009, 11:54:25 am by Sarge »
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Voted for Hansen and Hyypia. Legends.
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Bottom line is that this was one tough list to pick from.
regardless of what people may say, i've never heard anyone saying that they 'dream of a team of anyone, except carragher'!!

and that says it all!

or are we all hypocrite's?

(i'm playing devils advocate here so control yourselves...)
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Yes I agree that older posters do have a better insight because they can compare players with more knowledge and authority having seen all these players playing regularly at the time. But at the same time people naturally tend to lean towards their favourites from their era (their childhood, or youth) and perhaps don’t take into account the relative standards of other teams in the division and other players compared to those standards at other times.

I think my point was that given some people have seen all of these players it gives them a better chance of deciding based on what they saw. If they choose to select a player because he was their favourite when they were a kid, then the same method will be applied by someone who only saw a few of those players play. Hence the need to read all of the write-ups and take them on face value.

Fowler was my hero, but I appreciate that the standard of defending in the Premier League is higher today than it was in the mid-1990s and that has to be taken into account. There is a reason forwards seldom top 30 league goals now, however in the mid-90s when teams were far less organised before the influx of world class coaches and defenders were still sought for their physicality first and foremost Robbie and Shearer hit 30 goals in consecutive seasons.

I would say that with players of the quality of Shearer and Fowler, you had goalscorers who would always be the best. If they were around now and didn’t score 30 or 40 a season, then they would still have more than anyone else.
Look at Liddell, he scored goals for fun in 5 different positions in a shit Liverpool team. I would imagine if he were playing today he’d be right up there.

Likewise did Emlyn face attackers of the quality of Henry, Torres, Ronaldo – truly world class strikers – in England in the 1970s? When we dominated the league in the 1980s was it as tough as it is now?
I read all the write-ups but what strikes me about Hughes for example (and why I mentioned nostalgia and why I think it might be clouding some people’s opinions) is that this is the CB category and a lot of the memories seem to be based on his time as a midfielder, the goals he scored, his energy and work rate and all round game. But was he a better pure defender than Sami? Did he read the game as well, was he as clean a tackler (Sami was rarely booked) and was he as commanding in the air? I’m not so sure.

Don’t forget that Emlyn played in Europe every season against some world class players and was never left wanting. He was also Liverpool’s most capped England player at one time, so I’ve no doubt he would have been found out as he played as a Centre back, a full back and in midfield for England.
If comparing one player with another is how people are going to do it, then so be it. However a case could be made for many different partnerships. If you are talking about simply out and out defenders, then was Hansen as commanding in the air as Yeats. Or was Thompson as physical as Hyypia. You could go on and on.

The point is seeing them all is surely a positive aid to selection rather than a negative one, providing it’s based on what you are looking for from the player and not just looking through rose tinted glasses. That can be done by anyone as you have said.
So it doesn’t matter if they started watching in the 60s or the 90s.
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Offline kavah

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with Byrne, Nicol and Lawrenson excluded already i've got a feeling the 2nd XI could be better than the first ?