Topic: The Murder of George Floyd and Black Lives Matter.

[RainbowFlick]

I wouldn't hurry to judge her, it's obvious her training wasn't good enough (not good at all I'd even say...). The weight difference isn't something that would go through her mind in tense situations like this.

how many decades training exactly do you need? It doesn't take anyone particularly well trained to know the feel and weight of a gun versus a taser.

[Mimi]

It worries me how many of you swallow explanations from the police uncritically, and that some of you think that running from the police justifies the disproportionate use of force by officers, which results in the loss of life. So many of these incidents arise from completely innocuous events - somebody thinking a guy paid with a fake $20 note, somebody selling cigarettes on the sidewalk, and somebody with traffic tickets etc. All these incidents follow the same pattern which results in the death of the black person, and some variation of resisted arrest on the part of the officer.

 This particular officer is the head of their union, and has been involved in another incident where police officers shot a person with her instructing the officers to turn of their bodycams during the incident.

This bitch knew fell well what she was doing.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I wouldn't hurry to judge her, it's obvious her training wasn't good enough (not good at all I'd even say...). The weight difference isn't something that would go through her mind in tense situations like this.

On the force for 26 years, we should judge her as much as possible.

[Mumm-Ra]

It worries me how many of you swallow explanations from the police uncritically, and that some of you think that running from the police justifies the disproportionate use of force by officers, which results in the loss of life. So many of these incidents arise from completely innocuous events - somebody thinking a guy paid with a fake $20 note, somebody selling cigarettes on the sidewalk, and somebody with traffic tickets etc. All these incidents follow the same pattern which results in the death of the black person, and some variation of resisted arrest on the part of the officer.

 This particular officer is the head of their union, and has been involved in another incident where police officers shot a person with her instructing the officers to turn of their bodycams during the incident.

This bitch knew fell well what she was doing.

Nobody thinks a gun should have been fired in this incident, including the officer who fired one.

At what point, in your mind, did she decide she was going to kill him and then cover it up with an "I thought it was my taser" incompetence defence? Did she decide to end her career on this day just so she could experience the thrill of killing an unarmed black man? Do you realize how stupid that sounds.

Just out of interest, how old are you and where do you live? I'll go first, I'm in my 40s, from the UK but living in Chicago 20-odd years. I'm just wondering where you've developed this view of US law enforcement because I have seen you come out with some real doozies.

[Billy The Kid]

Without wanting to downplay the seriousness of this case, and without ignoring the reputation U.S. Police Officers have for being heavy handed with black people, I still can't help but wonder what the hell Daunte Wright was thinking here? Surely he must have known that making a run for it was more than likely going to lead to dire consequences? Surely common sense would have told him that his best option here was to just comply, do whatever he was asked, and avoid resisting arrest?

I mean, there's a cop right behind him in the process of cuffing him. There's another cop on the other side of his vehicle. And then there's the 3rd cop who accidentally shot him. From what I can see, none of them had their guns drawn when they went to engage him. The cop cuffing him doesn't appear to be doing so in a heavy handed manner. The aggression only starts when Wright begins to resist and attempts to make a run for it. It's undoubtedly a tragic loss of life, but I'm genuinely failing to see why the cop who accidentally discharged is the only one being subjected to scrutiny here 

Correct me if I'm wrong or if I'm being unreasonable, but to my mind, both of these statements are true:

1. If you're a police officer and you pull a black person over then you should avoid using your weapon unless the situation calls for it
2. If you're a black person and you get pulled over by a cop, you should comply with their requests and avoid resisting arrest

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I agree Billy,  Duante made a mistake. However the problem is overall that when even Black americans have not resisted arrest and followed orders, they've ended up dead or assaulted in one way or another.

[Billy The Kid]

It worries me how many of you swallow explanations from the police uncritically, and that some of you think that running from the police justifies the disproportionate use of force by officers, which results in the loss of life.

What about those of us who watched the footage of the incident in question, and then used our mental faculties to draw our own conclusions based on what we saw?

Do you reckon we're gullible impressionable fools as well?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

The statement form the police that this will happen again [taser being mistaken for a gun] is not acceptable.

[Billy The Kid]

I agree Billy,  Duante made a mistake. However the problem is overall that when even Black americans have not resisted arrest and followed orders, they've ended up dead or assaulted in one way or another.

I certainly don't disagree with you mate. Nor am I suggesting that complying is a guarantee that your life will be spared

However I do think it's fair to say that complying massively improves your chances.

I've yet to see an instance where resisting has ended well for anyone.

Ya know?

[The 1989 Brit Awards]

It worries me how many of you swallow explanations from the police uncritically, and that some of you think that running from the police justifies the disproportionate use of force by officers, which results in the loss of life. So many of these incidents arise from completely innocuous events - somebody thinking a guy paid with a fake $20 note, somebody selling cigarettes on the sidewalk, and somebody with traffic tickets etc. All these incidents follow the same pattern which results in the death of the black person, and some variation of resisted arrest on the part of the officer.

 This particular officer is the head of their union, and has been involved in another incident where police officers shot a person with her instructing the officers to turn of their bodycams during the incident.

This bitch knew fell well what she was doing.

None of the things you said before that last line really lead into that last line.

There's plenty of reasons that would indicate this police officer should carry moral responsibility, and very possibly be civilly liable. However, criminal responsibility (at least beyond manslaughter) simply doesn't seem to be applicable to this case.

By saying this, in no way am I against the BLM movement, or do I not recognize the serious problem of police in the USA doing a terrible job and black people being unjustly affected by that. Nevertheless, as a criminal lawyer, I've learnt the sheer importance of:

1) establishing the existence of intent according to the particularities of the specific case and evidence.
2) how the instrumentalization of 'criminal law' as a political tool (no matter how noble the political cause is) leads to nothing, and shouldn't be used to fix society's problems.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I certainly don't disagree with you mate. Nor am I suggesting that complying is a guarantee that your life will be spared

However I do think it's fair to say that complying massively improves your chances.

I've yet to see an instance where resisting has ended well for anyone.

Ya know?

I agree wholeheartedly. But the other problem is the inconsistency or the approach from the police when they deal with white americans. How many times have masshooters in recent years for instance come out alive? While others are losing their lives because of a traffic stop.

[bigbonedrawky]

Nobody thinks a gun should have been fired in this incident, including the officer who fired one.

At what point, in your mind, did she decide she was going to kill him and then cover it up with an "I thought it was my taser" incompetence defence? Did she decide to end her career on this day just so she could experience the thrill of killing an unarmed black man? Do you realize how stupid that sounds.

Just out of interest, how old are you and where do you live? I'll go first, I'm in my 40s, from the UK but living in Chicago 20-odd years. I'm just wondering where you've developed this view of US law enforcement because I have seen you come out with some real doozies.

I don't pretend to know what her intent was but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the "thrill of killing an unarmed blackman" was her motivation.
I am sure as I can be, that that kind of thing has gone on in my lifetime within the US. And from what I see and hear I doubt that kind of thinking is going anywhere too soon. 

[Billy The Kid]

I agree wholeheartedly. But the other problem is the inconsistency or the approach from the police when they deal with white americans. How many times have masshooters in recent years for instance come out alive? While others are losing their lives because of a traffic stop.

I fully agree. The inconsistencies are glaring and are undoubtedly a major problem in U.S. law enforcement. That is certainly true

I also believe it's true to say that Daunte Wright would still be alive had he not resisted arrest. Something which all citizens are expressly warned not to do by all PD's

I feel that needs to be pointed out more in instances such as this one

[Billy The Kid]

I don't pretend to know what her intent was but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the "thrill of killing an unarmed blackman" was her motivation.

I don't pretend to know what your intent is but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the "thrill of posting something stupid on the internet" was your motivation for joining the thread

See, we can all play that game, can't we? It's not really helpful though, is it?

[deFacto please, you bastards]

I fully agree. The inconsistencies are glaring and are undoubtedly a major problem in U.S. law enforcement. That is certainly true

I also believe it's true to say that Daunte Wright would still be alive had he not resisted arrest. Something which all citizens are expressly warned not to do by all PD's

I feel that needs to be pointed out more in instances such as this one

I would say his chances would have been better [to be alive] however I cannot fully say 100% that he would still be even if he didn't do what he did, given the sad state of affairs of previous police incidents.

[whtwht]

how many decades training exactly do you need? It doesn't take anyone particularly well trained to know the feel and weight of a gun versus a taser.

Accidents can happen though and if that black kid had listened and didn't resist he'd still be alive, facts. I'm more angry at the reaction from the sjw's . Disgusting scenes. There needs to be a curfew.

[bigbonedrawky]

I don't pretend to know what your intent is but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that the "thrill of posting something stupid on the internet" was your motivation for joining the thread

See, we can all play that game, can't we? It's not really helpful though, is it?

Because that kind of thing has never happened in the US has it Lucky Bill.

[Mumm-Ra]

Because that kind of thing has never happened in the US has it Lucky Bill.

Is that the level you want to debate at?

[Mumm-Ra]

I would say his chances would have been better [to be alive] however I cannot fully say 100% that he would still be even if he didn't do what he did, given the sad state of affairs of previous police incidents.

You can't fully 100% say anything. You can't fully 100% say that a woman walking home in London won't be abducted and killed by a psycho policeman. 
His chances of  surviving that arrest without injury had he complied would have been as close to 100% as you can reasonably get.

[deFacto please, you bastards]

You can't fully 100% say anything. You can't fully 100% say that a woman walking home in London won't be abducted and killed by a psycho policeman. 
His chances of  surviving that arrest without injury had he complied would have been as close to 100% as you can reasonably get.

Yes I agree you can't fully say 100 percent anything, but you know very well what my point is. I agree he shouldn't have done what he has done. However as I said, I've seen more than enough Black Americans get asssaulted and or killed even when they've done nothing wrong whatsoever. Ergo why I said what I said and why the issue exists.

[Mumm-Ra]

I certainly don't disagree with you mate. Nor am I suggesting that complying is a guarantee that your life will be spared

However I do think it's fair to say that complying massively improves your chances.

I've yet to see an instance where resisting has ended well for anyone.

Ya know?

What you're saying is obviously true to any reasonable person.

The problem is, once again, that taking any position that isn't hardcore left-wing BLM ACAB makes people react to you as though you're Tucker Carlson.

[stoa]

Without wanting to downplay the seriousness of this case, and without ignoring the reputation U.S. Police Officers have for being heavy handed with black people, I still can't help but wonder what the hell Daunte Wright was thinking here? Surely he must have known that making a run for it was more than likely going to lead to dire consequences? Surely common sense would have told him that his best option here was to just comply, do whatever he was asked, and avoid resisting arrest?

To be honest, I think it's a moot point. What it boils down to for me is that a young man was killed after being stopped by the police for a traffic violation. Yes, he made a stupid decision, but that shouldn't have cost him his life. To me, police officers and law enforcement officials have to follow a higher standard than your average Joe on the street. They carry deadly weapons and they are allowed to use them, if they have to. That's why they also have to be able to deal with situations where someone might not behave the way they expected or if someone does something stupid. Things like this should not happen. Full stop.

I understand what you're saying, but I can also see why other people might be offended by it, because it can also be seen as making an excuse for the officer. I know that's not what you're trying to do, but I wouldn't blame someone who is living in different surroundings than me (a white guy in his early 40s living in rural Austria), if they get angry, reading your post. I heard Daunte Wright's aunt on the news earlier and she was saying that the police shouldn't be calling this an accident. While I think it was an accident, I can also understand why she doesn't want people to call it that, because that also somehow suggests that the officer should face no consequences for her actions, especially in the US where we have seen cops get away with even worse things.

[liverbloke]

Without wanting to downplay the seriousness of this case, and without ignoring the reputation U.S. Police Officers have for being heavy handed with black people, I still can't help but wonder what the hell Daunte Wright was thinking here? Surely he must have known that making a run for it was more than likely going to lead to dire consequences? Surely common sense would have told him that his best option here was to just comply, do whatever he was asked, and avoid resisting arrest?

I mean, there's a cop right behind him in the process of cuffing him. There's another cop on the other side of his vehicle. And then there's the 3rd cop who accidentally shot him. From what I can see, none of them had their guns drawn when they went to engage him. The cop cuffing him doesn't appear to be doing so in a heavy handed manner. The aggression only starts when Wright begins to resist and attempts to make a run for it. It's undoubtedly a tragic loss of life, but I'm genuinely failing to see why the cop who accidentally discharged is the only one being subjected to scrutiny here 

Correct me if I'm wrong or if I'm being unreasonable, but to my mind, both of these statements are true:

1. If you're a police officer and you pull a black person over then you should avoid using your weapon unless the situation calls for it
2. If you're a black person and you get pulled over by a cop, you should comply with their requests and avoid resisting arrest

or get shot dead - right?

i think you're missing a major point here

[Billy The Kid]

I would say his chances would have been better [to be alive] however I cannot fully say 100% that he would still be even if he didn't do what he did, given the sad state of affairs of previous police incidents.

Fair enough mate. None of us can say for sure what would have transpired had Wright just complied. But from what I saw in the video, the cops did not approach Wrights vehicle in an aggressive manner. They walked up with their guns in their holsters. When Wright stepped out of the vehicle, the cop who was cuffing him appeared to be doing so calmly. He certainly didn't look heavy handed to me. It all looked pretty routine up until Wright tried to break free and make a run for it. My guess is, had he complied, he'd have been cuffed and placed in the cop car - as per normal procedure   

[Billy The Kid]

Because that kind of thing has never happened in the US has it Lucky Bill.

Did you miss the opening line of my original post?

Without wanting to downplay the seriousness of this case, and without ignoring the reputation U.S. Police Officers have for being heavy handed with black people,

[Billy The Kid]

or get shot dead - right?

If getting shot dead isn't something you fancy risking, then surely the sensible thing to do is to avoid that risk by complying?

i think you're missing a major point here

Am I? What point am I missing mate?

[liverbloke]

If getting shot dead isn't something you fancy risking, then surely the sensible thing to do is to avoid that risk by complying?

Am I? What point am I missing mate?

erm... the fact that the outcome is otherwise death?

it's a kinda relevant point

you're black - you don't comply - you're dead

i think that's the whole point

trying to think of how many white guys this has happened to....

erm...

trying to think of how many white protests there have been

erm...

[Billy The Kid]

To be honest, I think it's a moot point. What it boils down to for me is that a young man was killed after being stopped by the police for a traffic violation. Yes, he made a stupid decision,

That's not boiling it down mate. That's reducing it to the lowest common denominator and throwing away the left overs because they don't fit your workings

Wright isn't dead because he violated a traffic law. He's dead because he made (as you put it) a stupid decision

No one denies there are serious problems within American law enforcement.

That doesn't change the fact that resisting arrest is a fucking moronic thing to do

[TSC]

Police chief and the shooter have both resigned.

[stoa]

That's not boiling it down mate. That's reducing it to the lowest common denominator and throwing away the left overs because they don't fit your workings

Wright isn't dead because he violated a traffic law. He's dead because he made (as you put it) a stupid decision

No one denies there are serious problems within American law enforcement.

That doesn't change the fact that resisting arrest is a fucking moronic thing to do

It is moronic. Does it warrant being shot dead though (even if in this case it was an accident)? If the answer is no, then him resisting arrest in this case just doesn't make a difference for me. Police officers have a duty and that duty is to protect the citizens no matter what they might have done (unless they pose a serious threat to the life of the officer or someone else). If at the end of a traffic stop after a simple violation there is a dead young man something has gone terribly wrong and the officers responsible for that have to be held accountable.

[Billy The Kid]

erm... the fact that the outcome is otherwise death?

Not in all cases.

The number of cases that end in fatalities are actually a small percentage

That in no way excuses it of course. Nor should it be used to sweep America's policing problems under the rug

I was making a different point entirely, so spare me the watered down generalisations

[liverbloke]

That's not boiling it down mate. That's reducing it to the lowest common denominator and throwing away the left overs because they don't fit your workings

Wright isn't dead because he violated a traffic law. He's dead because he made (as you put it) a stupid decision

No one denies there are serious problems within American law enforcement.

That doesn't change the fact that resisting arrest is a fucking moronic thing to do

police knock at his mother's door

mother 'oh is everything alright?'

police 'sorry mam, your son made a stupid decision'

mother 'oh the silly boy - i'm always telling him....'

police 'so we killed him'

[Barneylfc∗]

Accidents can happen though and if that black kid had listened and didn't resist he'd still be alive, facts. I'm more angry at the reaction from the sjw's . Disgusting scenes. There needs to be a curfew.

So it's his own fault he's dead? Resisting arrest doesn't warrant being shot dead now does it?

[Barneylfc∗]

That's not boiling it down mate. That's reducing it to the lowest common denominator and throwing away the left overs because they don't fit your workings

Wright isn't dead because he violated a traffic law. He's dead because he made (as you put it) a stupid decision

No one denies there are serious problems within American law enforcement.

That doesn't change the fact that resisting arrest is a fucking moronic thing to do

He's dead because of an incompetent police officer, no other reason.

[John C]

I heard today that an officer keeps their taser on a different side than their gun, so she should have known what she was reaching for.

[Andy82lfc]

Some absolute shocking takes on this thread.

The guy is somehow at fault for a policewoman shooting a bullet into his chest and killing him because he resisted arrest.

How the fuck did we get here. If you make any wrong move it's all over. Just have others have done in the past you don't even have to resist it just takes a move some dickhead 'perceives' to be bad.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-56696345#:~:text=A%20police%20officer%20in%20Virginia,the%20incident%2C%20filmed%20in%20December.

That link above is a perfect example. Fat twat scumbag policeman gun in his face telling him to get out. In other words move your hands back into the car and unbuckle your seatbelt. After how we know the police behave would you fucking dare move your hands? Would you fuck. I would have done the same thing, but this is where we are, it is safer to get pepper sprayed, dignity removed and humiliated than risk getting shot and killed.

[Red Beret]

I wish I knew what was going through that young man's mind when he decided to flee.  I realise he must have been scared, and probably just panicked; but in a country where unarmed people can be so casually killed he ended up facing off against someone who mixed up their sidearm with their fucking taser.  Utterly tragic.   

[FlashGordon]

Anyone who use the term social justice warrior to insult people is an absolute wrongun.

[Hazell]

Might be just me but this witness for defence for Derek Chauvin is talking nonsense, him trying to say Chauvin was justified in his use of force is actually making my blood boil.

[stoa]

Might be just me but this witness for defence for Derek Chauvin is talking nonsense, him trying to say Chauvin was justified in his use of force is actually making my blood boil.

Have the same feeling, but it might work with a "law and order" type of juror. But to be honest, I think the prosecution will tear him apart in cross examination. All they need to do is ask him, if a change of the medical status of a person (like not being able to find a pulse) requires a "downgrad" in the use of force and that's his testimony out of the window. I don't think anyone was saying that the initial use of force was bad. The problem started when they kept George Floyd on the ground and kept pushing him down. Don't see how that expert will answer that.