Topic: LIVERPOOL TRANSFER THREAD - WELCOME, 'A PLAYER'!!

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I just want a CB and if they don't cough up it's nothing short of shortsighted negligence.

And I am not buying or interested in any finance or lack of chat.

We've earnt them a fortune whilst spending like a middle to bottom of the table club.

I've never called them out as I've always felt that they would back Klopp when needed,this is the first test and it looks like they're going to fail.

Put up or sell up.

I don't want this to be a pro or anti FSG post, but comments like the one above are unhelpful.
You simply cannot say that when we have been sustaining the levels of wages and bonuses that we have over the last few years.
Show me a mid to bottom of the table club with a wage bill approaching ours.

[CraigDS]

Show me a mid to bottom of the table club with a wage bill approaching ours.

Our wage bill is more than 3x Newcastle’s, as an example.

[Naby Lad]

Could you please enlighten as to the Adrian situation? If you are talking about his performance against Atletico Madrid, well he started that season really good

He didn’t.

It’s such a causation=correlation argument this. Oh we won games so Adrian must have been fine. He wasn’t. He was just as bad then only we got away with his bollocks because attackers didn’t take advantage or the attackers scored enough goals to compensate for his shite.

Southampton away the perfect example. We won 2-1 after he made an absolute clanger because Danny Ings then missed an absolute sitter in the last minute. He made the exact same mistake in that game that led to the goal in the first half as well, dallying on the ball then booting it off an attack, only he got away with it after it bounced wide. Then didn’t fucking learn.

Actually go back and watch the game. He was just as bad then as he was later in the season only his countless errors didn’t get punished. Got punished in the Atletico game when he booted it straight to the opposition. He did the exact same in one of his first games against Arsenal when Van Dijk had complete control of the situation and he came charging out despite Virg screaming at him to stay in his fuckong goal and then kicked it staight to Aubameyang who missed the open net.

He was dire from day one. He just got away with it. 

[JackWard33]

Judging people's decision making is really hard because people will always tend towards binary judgements about things that are non-binary
So in this case we only ever see the results - not the options people had or the parameters they had to work within.

We're coming off a run of recruitment that might just be the most successful in modern football history given the amount of money spent to do it ... its certainly hard to find better.
It could be that the people involved are all geniuses..... it could also be that they've had their fare share of luck and/or the absence of bad luck ... its probably both   (what if VVD had wanted to go to City, what if Real had paid the money for Alisson, what if Barca weren't mentally ill etc etc)

The biggest problem we have as a club going forward is that a lot of our edge in recruitment has disappeared because other clubs have caught up - even compared to 5 or 6 years ago there are so few secrets in recruitment because of analytics. The market is priced more perfectly and younger players are far more exposed.
Doesn't mean our edge is zero but does mean its harder and harder to win with less resources than the competition; you're relying on us doing our job perfectly and them doing it imperfectly 
Man United right now are a good example of this, they've spent their money pretty poorly / inefficiently in the main - they've still ended up with a squad thats got a huge amount of talent and is better than every other squad in the league bar 2 or 3 ... how many bullets you can fire is ever more important

I'm rambling now - just wanted to say it is reductive to generalise from this decision to their general policy; its such a strange / difficult year
Of course we should be buying a CB now for footballing and financial reasons - in fact one should already be at the club - and its strange that we seem to be on the verge of a short term decision that could have pretty negative medium term effects.... but I have a hard time generalising it to FSG are X because how you view are recruitment depends on which time period or snap shot of decisions you look at... and even then you don't know the parameters for those decisions

[killer-heels]

He didn’t.

It’s such a causation=correlation argument this. Oh we won games so Adrian must have been fine. He wasn’t. He was just as bad then only we got away with his bollocks because attackers didn’t take advantage or the attackers scored enough goals to compensate for his shite.

Southampton away the perfect example. We won 2-1 after he made an absolute clanger because Danny Ings then missed an absolute sitter in the last minute. He made the exact same mistake in that game that led to the goal in the first half as well, dallying on the ball then booting it off an attack, only he got away with it after it bounced wide. Then didn’t fucking learn.

Actually go back and watch the game. He was just as bad then as he was later in the season only his countless errors didn’t get punished. Got punished in the Atletico game when he booted it straight to the opposition. He did the exact same in one of his first games against Arsenal when Van Dijk had complete control of the situation and he came charging out despite Virg screaming at him to stay in his fuckong goal and then kicked it staight to Aubameyang who missed the open net.

He was dire from day one. He just got away with it. 

What was the point on Adrian? He was signed as back up. He was only played because of the injury suffered to Alisson and a set of injuries that nobody really could have predicted.

[Naby Lad]

What was the point on Adrian? He was signed as back up.

Sign a better back up. If we did we’d have won the treble. Instead his incompetence booted us out of two competitions in a week.

He’s, at best, a mid table championship keeper. Much worse than Mignolet. West Ham released him ffs.

[killer-heels]

Sign a better back up. If we did we’d have won the treble. Instead his incompetence booted us out of two competitions in a week.

He’s, at best, a mid table championship keeper. Much worse than Mignolet.

Sorry but no Adrian = Treble is fanciful. We could not have predicted Alisson's injuries, nobody could.

[Naby Lad]

Sorry but no Adrian = Treble is fanciful. We could not have predicted Alisson's injuries, nobody could.

I don’t care about Alisson’s injuries. Buy a better back up keeper regardless.

And how is it fanciful to think the reigning european champions who were running towards a second season of nigh on 100 points winning the FA Cup and retaining the champions league is fanciful.

And I don’t want to hear your usual putting Liverpool down stuff. Oh little Liverpool couldn’t possibly have a competent back up keeper. What keeper would sit on the bench. Loads would. Like they do at Madrid. At Barca. At Juventus. At PSG. Man Utd have Romero as their 3rd choice and Henderson as 2nd choice.

We could have signed a substantially better #2 than a guy released by West Ham.

[naka]

Our wage bill is more than 3x Newcastle’s, as an example.

its all relative, our turnover is close to 3 times their turnover, there last set of accounts filed shows about 176m turnover .
still doesn't excuse the fact that the world and its mother knows we need a CB urgently,

[killer-heels]

I don’t care about Alisson’s injuries. Buy a better back up keeper regardless.

And how is it fanciful to think the reigning european champions who were running towards a second season of nigh on 100 points winning the FA Cup and retaining the champions league is fanciful.

Atletico was a round of 16 match. The FA Cup was what, the 5th round? There was a hell of a lot of games still to go and absolutely no guarantee we win both those competitions especially since our form after lockdown.

Very few teams have even decent back up keepers. You are making comments about allowing wage bills to get too high, well in that case we can't be having good 2nd choice keepers to keep that under control.

[Naby Lad]

Atletico was a round of 16 match. The FA Cup was what, the 5th round? There was a hell of a lot of games still to go and absolutely no guarantee we win both those competitions especially since our form after lockdown.

Very few teams have even decent back up keepers.

Loads of teams have better back up keepers than Adrian. Loads.

We had Mignolet for a season as back up. Find someone as good as him. If you need to keep selling and replacing the #2 every summer to ensure you have a 7/10 one then do it.

[AndyMuller]

Loads of teams have better back up keepers than Adrian. Loads.

We had Mignolet for a season as back up. Find someone as good as him. If you need to keep selling and replacing the #2 every summer to ensure you have a 7/10 one then do it.

How where we on course to win the CL when we got knocked out in the round of 16?

[killer-heels]

Loads of teams have better back up keepers than Adrian. Loads.

We had Mignolet for a season as back up. Find someone as good as him. If you need to keep selling and replacing the #2 every summer to ensure you have a 7/10 one then do it.

You have consistently used the line that we have '"allowed" the wage bill to become too high but then at the same time advocated for Mignolet or a player like him to be kept as back up. Mignolet was on around £80k a week I think, I would like to know what Romero or Henderson is on at Man Utd as well.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

its all relative, our turnover is close to 3 times their turnover, there last set of accounts filed shows about 176m turnover .
still doesn't excuse the fact that the world and its mother knows we need a CB urgently,

It is relevant when someone says we spend like a lower half club.
The only reason we can even think of supporting the wages we do is because of our turnover (not that such matters bother the bitters  )

Agree that it's obvious we need a CB, its just that people claiming we spend like a lower half team is obviously wrong and unhelpful.

[El Lobo]

Loads of teams have better back up keepers than Adrian. Loads.

We had Mignolet for a season as back up. Find someone as good as him. If you need to keep selling and replacing the #2 every summer to ensure you have a 7/10 one then do it.

You must know what a moronic system that would be though....? Paying agent fees and signing on fees plus other additional signing 'stuff', plus loyalty fees etc involved with selling said player. We'd be paying through the nose for a player who practically wouldn't be playing very often at all. I guess the ideal is that we get a good back up who is also home grown and young, hopefully Kelleher is that guy. We got unlucky with Adrian having to play so often but if there's one area you can probably afford to take a bit of a risk its with a back up goalie.

I shudder to think of the money we spent on back up goalies under Rafa, when we were literally haggling over a few million for Dani Alves. Kirkland, Luzi, Carson, Paul Jones, David Martin, Padelli, Itandje, Mihailov, Gulacsi and Cavalieri over about 7 years. Mostly whilst Pepe Reina was playing 50-55 games a season regularly.

[Naby Lad]

You have consistently used the line that we have '"allowed" the wage bill to become too high but then at the same time advocated for Mignolet or a player like him to be kept as back up. Mignolet was on around £80k a week I think, I would like to know what Romero or Henderson is on at Man Utd as well.

Ah ok. So that’s the line then is it. An extra £30k a week that Mignolet was getting over Adrian is where the line gets drawn. Ok   

I can’t be bothered continuing this to be honest. There is always some excuse.

[aw1991]

He didn’t.

Oh he did. He made some mistakes, but his stylistic difference from Migs allowed us as a team to play better. You might look at it sarcastically and say that a keeper should be reliable first and foremost, but are you suggesting Mignolet didn't have mistakes in him? He made some really bad howlers but unlike Adrian he also lacked the ability to function within a higher line.

His form definitely dropped since and now it reached the point where it's probably better off to both sides if he leaves, but it's really such a nothing matter. You're bringing me Adrian as point against FSG, like it carries the same weight as keeping Salah, Firmino, Mane and Henderson at the club while we were transitioning from a good side to a dominating one.

[killer-heels]

Ah ok. So that’s the line then is it. An extra £30k a week that Mignolet was getting over Adrian is where the line gets drawn. Ok   

I can’t be bothered continuing this to be honest. There is always some excuse.

Listen, we would all love every position to have a really good option in there, but its not always possible. Not everything can be perfect and it never is. Maybe if we have a better attacking option, we win the league in 18/19? What if it was a injury to Trent that derailed us? Does that mean we need a 8 or 9 out of 10 full back to replace him? That then costs.

Sometimes not everything is perfect and moaning about not signing a much better back up keeper and that definitely equaling two trophies is incredibly fanciful.

There are some changes that need to be made to the squad, that is evidently clear. But you seem to be on a mission to torch and doubt everything we have done to be successful thus far.

[Naby Lad]

You must know what a moronic system that would be though....? Paying agent fees and signing on fees plus other additional signing 'stuff', plus loyalty fees etc involved with selling said player. We'd be paying through the nose for a player who practically wouldn't be playing very often at all. I guess the ideal is that we get a good back up who is also home grown and young, hopefully Kelleher is that guy. We got unlucky with Adrian having to play so often but if there's one area you can probably afford to take a bit of a risk its with a back up goalie.

I shudder to think of the money we spent on back up goalies under Rafa, when we were literally haggling over a few million for Dani Alves. Kirkland, Luzi, Carson, Paul Jones, David Martin, Padelli, Itandje, Mihailov, Gulacsi and Cavalieri over about 7 years. Mostly whilst Pepe Reina was playing 50-55 games a season regularly.

So find someone on a free transfer then who’s actually good then when you need to replace him the following summer, which isn’t even a guarantee anyway because I reckon you’d get at least 2 seasons before they agitate for 1st team football but whatever, then sell that back up keeper and sign another decent one for free. Plenty of good keepers available on bosmans.

Just this summer there will be Tomas Vaclik, Vicente Guita, Fernando Muslera, Sergio Romero, Andrey Lunev, Rui Silva.

All of whom are competent goalkeepers. And don’t give me “none of them would sign to be back up” because nobody would flinch if Barca, Madrid, Bayern, Juventus, City etc signed any of those as back up.

[Naby Lad]

Oh he did. He made some mistakes, but his stylistic difference from Migs allowed us as a team to play better. You might look at it sarcastically and say that a keeper should be reliable first and foremost, but are you suggesting Mignolet didn't have mistakes in him? He made some really bad howlers but unlike Adrian he also lacked the ability to function within a higher line.

His form definitely dropped since and now it reached the point where it's probably better off to both sides if he leaves, but it's really such a nothing matter. You're bringing me Adrian as point against FSG, like it carries the same weight as keeping Salah, Firmino, Mane and Henderson at the club while we were transitioning from a good side to a dominating one.

Adrian’s style allowed us to do what!!?? Adrian is the worst keeper i’ve seen in my life with the ball at his feet. As for Adrian being able to play the high line, yeah charging out and completely fucking it up every time isn’t impressive. Never seen a CB scream at his keeper more in my life than Van Dijk to Adrian.

He was horrific from day one and it got swept under the carpet because we got away with it. Mignolet was a FAR better keeper than Adrian.

[Naby Lad]

There are some changes that need to be made to the squad, that is evidently clear. But you seem to be on a mission to torch and doubt everything we have done to be successful thus far.

I’m obviously not though. But feel free to exaggerate to try get the high ground. I literally started this Adrian discussion by saying that almost everything the club do in the market is perfect. Yeah, really torching and doubting EVERYTHING the club has done by saying they are almost perfect.

[aw1991]

Adrian’s style allowed us to do what!!?? Adrian is the worst keeper i’ve seen in my life with the ball at his feet. As for Adrian being able to play the high line, yeah charging out and completely fucking it up every time isn’t impressive. Never seen a CB scream at his keeper more in my life than Van Dijk to Adrian.

He was horrific from day one and it got swept under the carpet because we got away with it. Mignolet was a FAR better keeper than Adrian.

You are massively overreacting, but I feel like it would be for the best not to draw out such a small thing. Not replacing Adrian really is a strange hill to die on.

[harleydanger]

Another note is any club we approach about a CB now is throwing an extra 50% desperation tax on top of any price. Not a good position.

[smurfinaus]

So any new links?

[killer-heels]

I’m obviously not though. But feel free to exaggerate to try get the high ground. I literally started this Adrian discussion by saying that almost everything the club do in the market is perfect. Yeah, really torching and doubting EVERYTHING the club has done by saying they are almost perfect.

Fair enough if what you were replying to was a point that everything we do is literally perfect. I think most people would agree that not everything is ever perfect, by anyone.

[MD1990]

Loads of teams have better back up keepers than Adrian. Loads.

We had Mignolet for a season as back up. Find someone as good as him. If you need to keep selling and replacing the #2 every summer to ensure you have a 7/10 one then do it.

Kelleher looks very good. Dont think we need a #2.

Adrian isnt on the bench even anymore

[killer-heels]

Kelleher looks very good. Dont think we need a #2.

Adrian isnt on the bench even anymore

If Alisson can get through to the end of the season without injury then its pretty much the ideal set up, both in terms of profile and financially.

I think for next season its going to have to be something we may need to expand. So having more younger players be the back ups in the way Neco Williams and Curtis Jones are doing so now, with a smaller core of more physically reliable players. Having someone like Harvey Elliot as 5th or 6th option for the front three rather than 3 internationals who are not contributing much.

[Robinred]

Judging people's decision making is really hard because people will always tend towards binary judgements about things that are non-binary
So in this case we only ever see the results - not the options people had or the parameters they had to work within.

We're coming off a run of recruitment that might just be the most successful in modern football history given the amount of money spent to do it ... its certainly hard to find better.
It could be that the people involved are all geniuses..... it could also be that they've had their fare share of luck and/or the absence of bad luck ... its probably both   (what if VVD had wanted to go to City, what if Real had paid the money for Alisson, what if Barca weren't mentally ill etc etc)

The biggest problem we have as a club going forward is that a lot of our edge in recruitment has disappeared because other clubs have caught up - even compared to 5 or 6 years ago there are so few secrets in recruitment because of analytics. The market is priced more perfectly and younger players are far more exposed.
Doesn't mean our edge is zero but does mean its harder and harder to win with less resources than the competition; you're relying on us doing our job perfectly and them doing it imperfectly 
Man United right now are a good example of this, they've spent their money pretty poorly / inefficiently in the main - they've still ended up with a squad thats got a huge amount of talent and is better than every other squad in the league bar 2 or 3 ... how many bullets you can fire is ever more important

I'm rambling now - just wanted to say it is reductive to generalise from this decision to their general policy; its such a strange / difficult year
Of course we should be buying a CB now for footballing and financial reasons - in fact one should already be at the club - and its strange that we seem to be on the verge of a short term decision that could have pretty negative medium term effects.... but I have a hard time generalising it to FSG are X because how you view are recruitment depends on which time period or snap shot of decisions you look at... and even then you don't know the parameters for those decisions

Good post. If that’s a ramble, what are the other posts over the last few pages?

[smig]

He didn’t.

It’s such a causation=correlation argument this. Oh we won games so Adrian must have been fine. He wasn’t. He was just as bad then only we got away with his bollocks because attackers didn’t take advantage or the attackers scored enough goals to compensate for his shite.

Southampton away the perfect example. We won 2-1 after he made an absolute clanger because Danny Ings then missed an absolute sitter in the last minute. He made the exact same mistake in that game that led to the goal in the first half as well, dallying on the ball then booting it off an attack, only he got away with it after it bounced wide. Then didn’t fucking learn.

Actually go back and watch the game. He was just as bad then as he was later in the season only his countless errors didn’t get punished. Got punished in the Atletico game when he booted it straight to the opposition. He did the exact same in one of his first games against Arsenal when Van Dijk had complete control of the situation and he came charging out despite Virg screaming at him to stay in his fuckong goal and then kicked it staight to Aubameyang who missed the open net.

He was dire from day one. He just got away with it. 

Correct. He's never been good enough to play for us

[FowlerLegend]

And signed Alisson, Fabinho, Keita....

This Coutinho money went a long way.

The thing that gets me about the Coutinho transfer is the way history was rewritten.

If you look back at the summer before Coutinho left, the journalists were saying that we planned to buy Van Dijk and Keita. We cocked up the Van Dijk transfer and then agreed a deal for Keita to come the following summer.

For me, this is crucial because up until the end of the Summer there was no talk of Coutinho going anywhere. So when people say that the money went on Van Dijk or Keita that cannot be right, can it?

That aside, my view on the owners changed a bit after I read the Swiss Ramble article on the accounts. Before that, It really bugged me that they did not do more from a position of strength in summer 19. I can see it wasn't that straightforward and sincece then arguably everything has been thrown out of the window by Covid.

Even in the summer though I think the club did try and do more than Thiago and Jota. If you look at Doku, he didn't leave the club until the last week of the window - after Jota - and yet his comments suggest that we were also in for him.

All that said, I am really frustrated by the stuff with the centre half. Initially, in the early weeks of the window, I thought it was a ploy by the club to not look desperate to buy and get the price down. However it appears that is not the case.

The article in the Athletic today suggests that Klopp, the players, the scouting staff (lower down) think the club should be buying a centre half. So the only ones that don't are Edwards and Gordon.

However, our scouting department is absolutely lauded for being brilliant with data, detailed knowledge of  clubs and players finances/backgrounds. Further still no one is saying we need to buy a player that will be first choice next season, a Klavan type may be OK. Finally, if we have no money, with our successes some other clubs must be absolutely brassic.

With all that in mind I just don't see how we cannot find a player somewhere in the world for a modest fee. Even then, you don't pay it all upfront.

That is the bit that is so galling. The financial risk of doing something seems minimal, the financial impact of not and risk if that happening far greater. Its like the club are just being pig headed/arrogant.

I get that if we manage our way through this and we come out as probably one of the 3 best positioned clubs in Europe but if we are not in the CL then Edwards and Gordon will not be able to say "well with hindsight we would do it differently". The damage it will do to fans view of their football judgement will be severe. I hope they get it right and I will happily eat humble pie if they do!

[mkferdy]

If Alisson can get through to the end of the season without injury then its pretty much the ideal set up, both in terms of profile and financially.

I think for next season its going to have to be something we may need to expand. So having more younger players be the back ups in the way Neco Williams and Curtis Jones are doing so now, with a smaller core of more physically reliable players. Having someone like Harvey Elliot as 5th or 6th option for the front three rather than 3 internationals who are not contributing much.

That's pretty much how I see it, I want us to focus on robust players who fit the system. We are going to need a core of around 16ish reliable first team quality players in my opinion being sublimated by very promising youth players.

It's why I worry about Wijnaldum leaving, he's reliable and always fit. Most of our other central midfielders will pick up injuries along the way. 

[PeterTheRed ...]

Another note is any club we approach about a CB now is throwing an extra 50% desperation tax on top of any price. Not a good position.

That is why you sign a player on loan, or target someone with 6 months left on his contract. I have mentioned it before, but January 2007 transfer window (it was just before the takeover, and very little money was available) was one of our better transfer windows in recent history, when we've signed Mascherano on loan for 18 months (loan fee £1.3 million), and Arbeloa on a permanent deal for £2.5 million.

[No666]

So James Pearce saying the squad and the coaching squad are surprised at FSG's refusal to buy a defender.

[CraigDS]

So James Pearce saying the squad and the coaching squad are surprised at FSG's refusal to buy a defender.

Where is he saying this?

[Legs]

Where is he saying this?

Probably in The Athletic mate

[killer-heels]

Where is he saying this?

The Athletic, but it just says they are surprised. Nothing too controversial.

[CraigDS]

Ah was going to say as couldn't see it on his twitter.

[Reeves]

So James Pearce saying the squad and the coaching squad are surprised at FSG's refusal to buy a defender.

This backs up what I said in another thread. Not rectifying a plainly obvious problem might frustrate fans, but that's nothing compared with how that makes players feel. They have short careers and want to win things. They thought they could continue to do that at LFC, a big club. Now they realise that this year they cannot. A whole year of effort written off. Their minds will already be contemplating moves. It reminds me of Torres in his autobiography saying LFC did not have the same ambition a few years into his career with us. He realised he could do better. Win more elsewhere. Footballers need to feel they are part of a project with potential. It's only natural for 100% committed sportsman who want the best for themselves in short careers. It's not melodramatic, it's reality.

[CraigDS]

This backs up what I said in another thread. Not rectifying a plainly obvious problem might frustrate fans, but that's nothing compared with how that makes players feel. They have short careers and want to win things. They thought they could continue to do that at LFC, a big club. Now they realise that this year they cannot. A whole year of effort written off. Their minds will already be contemplating moves.

Don't be dramatic. Everyone of these players joined us over joining a team like City where every position, and it's back up, has tens of millions thrown at it. If they wanted that sort of club they'd have joined it originally.

We needed another forward in summer 2019 and didn't sign one - how many players looked like they want out last season because of it?

[RayPhilAlan]

I don’t care about Alisson’s injuries. Buy a better back up keeper regardless.

And how is it fanciful to think the reigning european champions who were running towards a second season of nigh on 100 points winning the FA Cup and retaining the champions league is fanciful.

And I don’t want to hear your usual putting Liverpool down stuff. Oh little Liverpool couldn’t possibly have a competent back up keeper. What keeper would sit on the bench. Loads would. Like they do at Madrid. At Barca. At Juventus. At PSG. Man Utd have Romero as their 3rd choice and Henderson as 2nd choice.

We could have signed a substantially better #2 than a guy released by West Ham.

Don't want to restart the debate on Adrian's quality, but should just point out that he wasn't released by West Ham. He refused to sign a new contract with them,  so it's like saying Matip was released by Schalke, or, at the end of this season, we released Gini.
Before we came in for him, Adrian was about to sign on at Villarreal as their 1st choice keeper.