Author Topic: Liverpool and Manchester UTD in bombshell talks to join European Premier League  (Read 13869 times)

Offline Klopites

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Not sure you got what I meant

I don’t expect you to get super emotional against West Ham . We’re not local or trophy challenging rivals but

Liverpool have a big global support and I grew up in Essex around shit loads of Liverpool fans who had family or friends who were West Ham, Tottenham, Arsenal, Chelsea, Ipswich, Crystal Palace, Charlton , Norwich or QPR fans etc etc etc

Those games by default have an emotion attachment ( Your not all Scousers 😁) . It’s not just the big 4/5 teams that everyone only cares about

Of course your champions league games will bring emotions as they can be great games leading to a potential trophy win . It’s the tournament and Liverpool legacy within the European Cup/Champions League that’s driving your emotions. Not the team Bayern Munich or PSG etc .

You play Everton your could be 5th they could be 16th in a league game there might not be as much officially riding on the game but 99% of Liverpool fans would be bang up for that game with a roller coaster of emotions
Purely down to the team your playing and history

My point being let’s say you left the premier league playing approx 14-18 same clubs each year with no emotional connection ( plus no guarantee you’d be top 4 club ) I think most would want to go back to the premier league

The premier league is shit in many aspects, I don’t need convincing I support a team that only by a miracle could finish in the top 6 let alone higher. How’s that for a good product in reality that’s ridiculous  . That’s no fun believe me but that emotional attachment since 1981 stupidly keeps me interested some how despite my interest in the peripheral bullshit within the game is dead

Be careful what you wish for though

We play the same 14-18 clubs every year already and have done for decades, hence why now the only emotions attached to games from my perspective beyond passion for my team and wanting to see us do well and win are as you rightly pointed out against Everton and of course United who more than likely we would still be playing anyway.

You're wrong it's the legacy, the competition and the club faced that drive the emotions on a European stage. If you think the club Bayern, Juve etc brings out no emotions you are wrong the clubs of those magnitude bring out admiration, respect, aniexty, tension, sometimes fear which when combined make the game automatically a different level of exciting and adrenaline fueled. Not being guaranteed top 4 would bring another layer of excitement and a different kind of challenge.

So considering all that I'd rather play the likes of Juve & Bayern twice a season which would for a decent amount of time have a lot of emotions, than continue to play for another 50 years West Ham and Crystal Palace twice a season which have no emotions attached beyond wanting us to win and who's football is just not great to watch. So even after years or a decade when the emotions of facing teams like Bayern is eroded away or faded atleast there's a level of football worth watching to watch.

My only negative point about it is potential unaffordable cost to fans.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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My only negative point about it is potential unaffordable cost to fans.

Regardless of all the other points, that is surely a pretty huge negative? Not that it is affordable or accessible for many fans as it is

Offline Klopites

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Regardless of all the other points, that is surely a pretty huge negative? Not that it is affordable or accessible for many fans as it is

Of course, however its only going to get more and more unaffordable anyway in the current set up and more and more people will be priced out regardless, I was priced out years ago for regular attendance.

Atleast with this the club might make so much money that the income from tickets is deemed so neglible in comparison that the prices are lowered or price caps are introduced as part of a new setup. LOL unlikely I know but there is a chance, at the moment there is no chance ticket prices are lowered and they will only continue to rise.

Online Redbonnie

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Think of the tourism income for this city from foreign fans staying over? The business to Liverpool airport?  I am worried that students won’t physically travel to university post Covid and degrees will move online. Remote working will lead to deurbinisation and the death of our city centre. You wouldn’t know it from chippy you know what’s but Liverpool is a big part of our economy and I want to see it grow as between Covid and Brexit we are heading for seriously bad times.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 11:56:28 am by Redbonnie »

Offline oxenstierna

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To those saying the magic has gone - you found no magic in the Barca comeback, winning the CL and the following parade? This place was giddy like never before

Offline Lusty

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Mad how all the people complaining about having too many uncompetitive teams in the league think that the answer is to concentrate more money and power into an elite few rather than do a better job of sharing it out.

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Proper weird how some of ours keep on banging on about Gerrard on Naysmith as some sort of reason we can't talk about bad tackles in the derby. Says a lot about how good our conduct is though that our examples of bad is a tackle 18 years ago and a Kuyt one 13 years ago that didn't even connect. We could probably pick 10 horror tackles from Everton in the last 5 years alone.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Of course, however its only going to get more and more unaffordable anyway in the current set up and more and more people will be priced out regardless, I was priced out years ago for regular attendance.

Atleast with this the club might make so much money that the income from tickets is deemed so neglible in comparison that the prices are lowered or price caps are introduced as part of a new setup. LOL unlikely I know but there is a chance, at the moment there is no chance ticket prices are lowered and they will only continue to rise.

And the solution to that is just to continue down the path of unaffordability and further distancing of the club from the community that made it?

I agree it is shite the way it is. It needs to change. The amount of TV money in the Prem already we could absolutely afford to cut ticket prices. The proof of that is that we are not selling any tickets at the moment and yet the club is still in a position to invest. What more proof do we need? And yet jumping into a super-league is suddenly going to persuade the money men to cut ticket prices?

Rather then jumping on board with this billionaires idea of our game, why are we as a fan base not pushing for the opposite? More fairly distributed proceeds? Government intervention if needs be? Removing the game from the control of elite clubs and into a more 'non-partisan' decision making body? Partial fan ownership? Cheaper tickets? etc.

Regardless of how achievable that looks at this time, that is surely where we should be putting our focus and support? Otherwise how else do you ever hope to put things moving in that direction?


Think of the tourism income for this city from foreign fans staying over? The business to Liverpool airport?  I am worried that students won’t physically travel to university post Covid and degrees will move online. Remote working will lead to deurbinisation and the death of our city centre. You wouldn’t know it from chippy you know what’s but Liverpool is a big part of our economy and I want to see it grow as between Covid and Brexit we are heading for seriously bad times.

And how is this the solution? This is a solution aimed primarily at TV revenue - because that is where the money is. Stadium revenue will barely be a consideration. Do we really think that post-Covid people are going to be racing from around the world to come to Liverpool, when it is clear that international travel is going the opposite way?

And if we were to go down this route, it wouldn't surprise me to start seeing 'home' games played abroad. Liverpool in name only. And even more depressing there would probably be significant portions of our fan base arguing it is a great idea, or at least 'inevitable'. Got to get with the times don't we?


« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 12:20:08 pm by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline Lusty

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Proper weird how some of ours keep on banging on about Gerrard on Naysmith as some sort of reason we can't talk about bad tackles in the derby. Says a lot about how good our conduct is though that our examples of bad is a tackle 18 years ago and a Kuyt one 13 years ago that didn't even connect. We could probably pick 10 horror tackles from Everton in the last 5 years alone.

Well if you take the derby out of it then I doubt Dries Mertens or that kid at Tottenham are talking about how good our conduct is.  That's just off the top of my head in the last year or so.

Online DelTrotter

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Well if you take the derby out of it then I doubt Dries Mertens or that kid at Tottenham are talking about how good our conduct is.  That's just off the top of my head in the last year or so.

Getting a bit desperate with these examples aren't you?  ;D Which again says a lot about how well behaved we are.


Offline WEST HAM PAUL

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We play the same 14-18 clubs every year already and have done for decades, hence why now the only emotions attached to games from my perspective beyond passion for my team and wanting to see us do well and win are as you rightly pointed out against Everton and of course United who more than likely we would still be playing anyway.

You're wrong it's the legacy, the competition and the club faced that drive the emotions on a European stage. If you think the club Bayern, Juve etc brings out no emotions you are wrong the clubs of those magnitude bring out admiration, respect, aniexty, tension, sometimes fear which when combined make the game automatically a different level of exciting and adrenaline fueled. Not being guaranteed top 4 would bring another layer of excitement and a different kind of challenge.

So considering all that I'd rather play the likes of Juve & Bayern twice a season which would for a decent amount of time have a lot of emotions, than continue to play for another 50 years West Ham and Crystal Palace twice a season which have no emotions attached beyond wanting us to win and who's football is just not great to watch. So even after years or a decade when the emotions of facing teams like Bayern is eroded away or faded atleast there's a level of football worth watching to watch.

My only negative point about it is potential unaffordable cost to fans.


You could have saved yourself a lot of typing and just said “ As long as the top 18 clubs in Europe are ok fuck the rest they don’t matter  “


We won’t agree we come from polar opposites in football worlds . An example in my world the champions league is irrelevant I’m not interested I don’t ever watch it . West Ham never been in it and probably never likely . To a Liverpool fan it’s almost defines your club as European royalty so my thinking is Alien to yours

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You could have saved yourself a lot of typing and just said “ As long as the top 18 clubs in Europe are ok fuck the rest they don’t matter  “


We won’t agree we come from polar opposites in football worlds . An example in my world the champions league is irrelevant I’m not interested I don’t ever watch it . West Ham never been in it and probably never likely . To a Liverpool fan it’s almost defines your club as European royalty so my thinking is Alien to yours

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Offline Lusty

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Getting a bit desperate with these examples aren't you?  ;D Which again says a lot about how well behaved we are.



Not sure how that's desperate mate.  You seem to have some idea that we have always played the game according to some kind of corinthian ideals, and that is absolute bullshit.

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I saw some of the clubs being mentioned on Sky Sports news last night and they have no right even entering the conversation. Fucking Spurs and Man City, behave yourselves.
Only English sides that are big enough is us and United.

The lack of European pedigree is just one of the reasons that will make it difficult for the likes of Man City or Tottenham to be serious candidates for the Super League. When this type of league is established, the local market is always taken into consideration, and the league is always trying to avoid too many clubs from the same metropolitan area. In the case of UK, the 3 obvious candidates would be LFC, Man Utd and Arsenal. Chelsea might get in as the 2nd club from London, since it is a huge metropolitan area, but I think that Celtic would also be serious candidates.

Once the ESL is established with 16-18 clubs, we will very likely see the football capital moving to clubs/cities that will be next in line for the future expansion of the league. Clubs in cities like Moscow, Istanbul, Berlin, Rome, Brussels, Vienna or Stockholm will get new owners, and some of them already got new owners or are in the process. This is the harsh reality of sports business ...

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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The lack of European pedigree is just one of the reasons that will make it difficult for the likes of Man City or Tottenham to be serious candidates for the Super League. When this type of league is established, the local market is always taken into consideration, and the league is always trying to avoid too many clubs from the same metropolitan area. In the case of UK, the 3 obvious candidates would be LFC, Man Utd and Arsenal. Chelsea might get in as the 2nd club from London, since it is a huge metropolitan area, but I think that Celtic would also be serious candidates.

Once the ESL is established with 16-18 clubs, we will very likely see the football capital moving to clubs/cities that will be next in line for the future expansion of the league. Clubs in cities like Moscow, Istanbul, Berlin, Rome, Brussels, Vienna or Stockholm will get new owners, and some of them already got new owners or are in the process. This is the harsh reality of sports business ...

The harsh reality of this particular form of "sports business" that we are currently engaged in. It is not a foregone conclusion that we have to go down this route. The reality is what we make of it. Which is why its so depressing to see so many fans throwing their support behind this as if it is a foregone conclusion or the only way.

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The harsh reality of this particular form of "sports business" that we are currently engaged in. It is not a foregone conclusion that we have to go down this route. The reality is what we make of it. Which is why its so depressing to see so many fans throwing their support behind this as if it is a foregone conclusion or the only way.

Well, the European Super League will happen, for the same reason the Premier League happened in 1992. Of course, we can always decide to stay out of it ...

Online DelTrotter

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Not sure how that's desperate mate.  You seem to have some idea that we have always played the game according to some kind of corinthian ideals, and that is absolute bullshit.

Robbo going in for a 50/50 after a shit touch as an example is desperate. And not really, just laughing at the absolute bollocks you've been spouting about how we can't moan about derby decisions as Gerrard did something in a derby 2 decades ago.

Offline BJ

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I mean you’ve simply just made that up without anything backing it up.

We played 57 games last season, 53 season before, 56 season before.... 63 in 15/16.

Don’t see any reason, with added income, that we couldn’t have a bigger squad and play 34 league games and 30 European games then play younger players in any domestic cups.
Isn’t the proposal for the European Super League to be played in a round robin format? With 18 teams that would mean 17 games not 30, plus the games from top four teams play off to decide league winner.

As already mentioned this super league idea surfaces every year.  My view, it won’t happen.  The game is already being taken away from the fans this accelerates that into warp speed.  I’ve been following Liverpool for over 50 years you move with the times because you have to or you get left behind. This feels like a step too for. 

Offline Lusty

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Robbo going in for a 50/50 after a shit touch as an example is desperate. And not really, just laughing at the absolute bollocks you've been spouting about how we can't moan about derby decisions as Gerrard did something in a derby 2 decades ago.

OK mate.  We're the goodies and everyone else are the baddies.

Can't wait till the Super League comes and our little darlings never have to worry about the bullys down the road again.

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Offline Son of Spion

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To those saying the magic has gone - you found no magic in the Barca comeback, winning the CL and the following parade? This place was giddy like never before
You are confusing the magic of LFC/Klopp with the magic of the game itself.

The magic of the game itself died a long time ago for me. The game and many who follow it are rancid. I'm only in it for LFC and Klopp now, because they are the only things in the game worth sticking around for. Whereas I used to care about the game itself and the well-being of the 'football pyramid' these days I only care about LFC and Klopp.

The game is screwed. Those running it can't even get the basics right and they couldn't give a shit about improving on their monumental incompetence and laziness. It's a multi-billion pound dysfunctional product now. Although we are lucky that our club have provided us some real magic, but that magic is a diamond in a cesspit of rancid, stinking shite. The fact that Klopp and our club can pull off such magic whilst operating in this cesspit is remarkable.
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Offline oxenstierna

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You are confusing the magic of LFC/Klopp with the magic of the game itself.

The magic of the game itself died a long time ago for me. The game and many who follow it are rancid. I'm only in it for LFC and Klopp now, because they are the only things in the game worth sticking around for. Whereas I used to care about the game itself and the well-being of the 'football pyramid' these days I only care about LFC and Klopp.

The game is screwed. Those running it can't even get the basics right and they couldn't give a shit about improving on their monumental incompetence and laziness. It's a multi-billion pound dysfunctional product now. Although we are lucky that our club have provided us some real magic, but that magic is a diamond in a cesspit of rancid, stinking shite. The fact that Klopp and our club can pull off such magic whilst operating in this cesspit is remarkable.
Im not confused, I still find enjoyment in professional football, both LFC and non-LFC, even though its hard with empty stands. I can agree with you that the game is going in the wrong direction with big money, pricing out fans and certain aspects of VAR, but I dont see the Glazers, Infantino, Perez and FSG fixing it

Offline Klopites

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And the solution to that is just to continue down the path of unaffordability and further distancing of the club from the community that made it?

I agree it is shite the way it is. It needs to change. The amount of TV money in the Prem already we could absolutely afford to cut ticket prices. The proof of that is that we are not selling any tickets at the moment and yet the club is still in a position to invest. What more proof do we need? And yet jumping into a super-league is suddenly going to persuade the money men to cut ticket prices?

Rather then jumping on board with this billionaires idea of our game, why are we as a fan base not pushing for the opposite? More fairly distributed proceeds? Government intervention if needs be? Removing the game from the control of elite clubs and into a more 'non-partisan' decision making body? Partial fan ownership? Cheaper tickets? etc.

Regardless of how achievable that looks at this time, that is surely where we should be putting our focus and support? Otherwise how else do you ever hope to put things moving in that direction?


And how is this the solution? This is a solution aimed primarily at TV revenue - because that is where the money is. Stadium revenue will barely be a consideration. Do we really think that post-Covid people are going to be racing from around the world to come to Liverpool, when it is clear that international travel is going the opposite way?

And if we were to go down this route, it wouldn't surprise me to start seeing 'home' games played abroad. Liverpool in name only. And even more depressing there would probably be significant portions of our fan base arguing it is a great idea, or at least 'inevitable'. Got to get with the times don't we?

I understand what you are saying we are however already in a billionaire idea one that has an undeniable status quo, there is a lot of money in the game as it stands and that has been trending upwards for years and years along with ticket prices. There has been ample opportunity down the years for a cap on prices or a reduction in prices to be introduced from either a club or league level or even a government level. This hasn't happened during periods of time in the past 3 years when there has been the most amount of money in the game ever and now with massive gaps to plug in clubs finances and cash flow due to covid its even less likely than ever that ticket prices will be reduced or capped in the future in the current setup with the current status quo.

At the moment there is no chance of ticket prices ever being reduced or capped, so how do you change the status quo? One way is a completely new setup, one that provides our club with so much money that looking into the cost of tickets is actually taken into consideration, it's very unlikely but there's a chance, more of a chance than in the current setup. In addition as one of the major advocates it seems in a new setup the club and other clubs may have the desire but also the ability upon formation of a new setup to from the outset define rules for ticket price costing and caps, again its unlikely but atleast there is a chance.

At the moment in the current setup it's impossible to implement change as no club nevermind 14 clubs are going to vote for reform on ticket prices when they are all bleeding money and have gaps to plug money wise there's no chance of change there. The government are bleeding money they won't be drafting legislation to lower or cap ticket prices, the lower ticket prices, the less money club makes the less money government makes from tax. There's no driver for change and no ability to force or implement it in a well established, well defined structure and status quo. From the onset of something new however its easier and there's a chance.

Unfortunately the owners position on any kind of fan ownership even partial is well established so there's absolutely no chance with that under the current owners.

International travel will be back by summer 2022 I don't think anyone is advocating home games abroad however.

All very interesting to think about and discuss.

Offline killer-heels

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Just for the fume it would generate in this country and its media, lets do it.

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Im not confused, I still find enjoyment in professional football, both LFC and non-LFC, even though its hard with empty stands. I can agree with you that the game is going in the wrong direction with big money, pricing out fans and certain aspects of VAR, but I dont see the Glazers, Infantino, Perez and FSG fixing it

The thing with these super leagues is that owners don't need to fix things. They will hire someone competent like Pete Rozelle or David Stern to run the league on daily basis, and the owners will get their return with the heavilly increased value of their clubs ...

Offline upthereds95

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Just for the fume it would generate in this country and its media, lets do it.

What about the fume it would cause to the large number of our own supporters who hate the idea and who it would alienate.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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What about the fume it would cause to the large number of our own supporters who hate the idea and who it would alienate.

Fuck em! Who needs em! Bunch of luddites.

If it was up to me we would fuck Liverpool Football Club straight out of the City of Liverpool to somewhere more profitable first chance we get.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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I understand what you are saying we are however already in a billionaire idea one that has an undeniable status quo, there is a lot of money in the game as it stands and that has been trending upwards for years and years along with ticket prices. There has been ample opportunity down the years for a cap on prices or a reduction in prices to be introduced from either a club or league level or even a government level. This hasn't happened during periods of time in the past 3 years when there has been the most amount of money in the game ever and now with massive gaps to plug in clubs finances and cash flow due to covid its even less likely than ever that ticket prices will be reduced or capped in the future in the current setup with the current status quo.

I agree. I think the only realistic way it would happen would be some kind of government intervention. Not a chance in hell with a Tory government though.

Quote
At the moment there is no chance of ticket prices ever being reduced or capped, so how do you change the status quo? One way is a completely new setup, one that provides our club with so much money that looking into the cost of tickets is actually taken into consideration, it's very unlikely but there's a chance, more of a chance than in the current setup. In addition as one of the major advocates it seems in a new setup the club and other clubs may have the desire but also the ability upon formation of a new setup to from the outset define rules for ticket price costing and caps, again its unlikely but atleast there is a chance.

We are currently in such a set up. If it isn't happening now it is unlikely to happen with even more money pouring into the league. Billionaire owners are billionaires because they are interested in profits. Again, without government intervention labelling football clubs as legal community assets (or something of that nature) with legislation to match, I don't think it is likely to happen.

Which is why we should be pushing for such a thing.


Quote
At the moment in the current setup it's impossible to implement change as no club nevermind 14 clubs are going to vote for reform on ticket prices when they are all bleeding money and have gaps to plug money wise there's no chance of change there. The government are bleeding money they won't be drafting legislation to lower or cap ticket prices, the lower ticket prices, the less money club makes the less money government makes from tax. There's no driver for change and no ability to force or implement it in a well established, well defined structure and status quo. From the onset of something new however its easier and there's a chance.

True again. Probably too late really. But if it was up to me no clubs (or rather their owners) should be making sporting or structural decisions. That should go to an independent body. What that would consist of or how that would be formed is a different matter.


Quote
Unfortunately the owners position on any kind of fan ownership even partial is well established so there's absolutely no chance with that under the current owners.

Again true. It would have to happen after the current owners leave (which they will eventually whether we like it or not). What replaces them is the key question. Again I think ir would require some kind of government legislation if we are to prevent the club falling to the next money-hungry billionaire owner (maybe we'll get an oil-state next time? Who knows!)

Quote
International travel will be back by summer 2022 I don't think anyone is advocating home games abroad however.

Not yet. Give it time.

Offline killer-heels

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Fuck em! Who needs em! Bunch of luddites.

If it was up to me we would fuck Liverpool Football Club straight out of the City of Liverpool to somewhere more profitable first chance we get.

An independent Liverpool, perhaps?

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What about the fume it would cause to the large number of our own supporters who hate the idea and who it would alienate.

From a selfish point of view, I would hate the fact that I won't be able to watch LFC in person anymore. Over the past 30 years, I have managed to watch over 20 of our away European fixtures, mostly when we played in Central and South-Eastern Europe.

But if you look at the big picture, we are at a point when we are one of the strongest clubs in the World, both on and off the pitch. If the European Super Leagues is established, we will be one of the top clubs even in that company. Our top players won't be going anywhere, and the next Van Dijk or Alisson would be even easier to get.

In the European Super League, with the salary cap and everything else that goes with it, getting a player like Mbappe won't be a problem, as long as he wants to join us. The value of good management and good scouting will be even bigger, because the playing field will be levelled by the salary cap. Thinking about it, the latest reports about FSG joining forces with Billy Beane can't be a coincidence ...

Offline El Lobo

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What about the fume it would cause to the large number of our own supporters who hate the idea and who it would alienate.

Depends what the larger number is doesnt it? If it’ll annoy more of the people in this country then it’s worth it.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Online rob1966

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Depends what the larger number is doesnt it? If it’ll annoy more of the people in this country then it’s worth it.

When they realise the cash cow has legged it through the gate and gone to a better field and all they're left with is Ermintrude. ;D
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Online Redbonnie

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And the solution to that is just to continue down the path of unaffordability and further distancing of the club from the community that made it?

I agree it is shite the way it is. It needs to change. The amount of TV money in the Prem already we could absolutely afford to cut ticket prices. The proof of that is that we are not selling any tickets at the moment and yet the club is still in a position to invest. What more proof do we need? And yet jumping into a super-league is suddenly going to persuade the money men to cut ticket prices?

Rather then jumping on board with this billionaires idea of our game, why are we as a fan base not pushing for the opposite? More fairly distributed proceeds? Government intervention if needs be? Removing the game from the control of elite clubs and into a more 'non-partisan' decision making body? Partial fan ownership? Cheaper tickets? etc.

Regardless of how achievable that looks at this time, that is surely where we should be putting our focus and support? Otherwise how else do you ever hope to put things moving in that direction?


And how is this the solution? This is a solution aimed primarily at TV revenue - because that is where the money is. Stadium revenue will barely be a consideration. Do we really think that post-Covid people are going to be racing from around the world to come to Liverpool, when it is clear that international travel is going the opposite way?

And if we were to go down this route, it wouldn't surprise me to start seeing 'home' games played abroad. Liverpool in name only. And even more depressing there would probably be significant portions of our fan base arguing it is a great idea, or at least 'inevitable'. Got to get with the times




Tourism is all we will have in this city soon and this will bring it in spades. I am from Anfield originally and since the re-development I am seeing badly needed green shoots. Of course people will travel - I will certainly travel abroad to watch us. Covid won’t be here forever but the disruption to urban demographics is here to stay and will be seismic.

Offline Son of Spion

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Im not confused, I still find enjoyment in professional football, both LFC and non-LFC, even though its hard with empty stands. I can agree with you that the game is going in the wrong direction with big money, pricing out fans and certain aspects of VAR, but I dont see the Glazers, Infantino, Perez and FSG fixing it

No insult was intended. I wasn't suggesting you were confused personally.

You asked those who said they felt the magic of football had gone, if they felt no magic after the Barcelona 2nd leg or our recent trophy wins. I was just answering as one of those who feels the magic of the game died years ago. My point was that I can still feel the magic of those moments, but still feel that the overall magic of the game as a whole has gone.

Personally, I don't get any enjoyment out of the game itself now. I do out of LFC and I do out of Klopp, but I don't watch any football apart from LFC anymore, I do my best to avoid all punditry and I don't do social media at all, never mind around the game. Whereas I used to enjoy the game in a wider context, my only interest now is LFC. The rest just feels toxic and insanely negative to me, so I swerve it.

As far as fixing the game is concerned, I think it's too late. It's gone the way the wider world has gone. Maybe some very level and very clever minds will eventually come up with some genuine solutions that work for the good of the game overall, but it seems unlikely currently. I hope I'm wrong, of course.

Do I personally want a European 'Super League'? Actually no, but something has to give, and maybe these ideas/proposals are what it takes to at least get the ball rolling on improving the game. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the big clubs have come up with something considered outrageous to shock the system into compromising to a level that they would have been happy with all along. This could just be the hand grenade thrown into the room in order to get everyone talking. Maybe if the hand grenade wasn't thrown in, the status quo would drag on endlessly?

For what it's worth, I'm something of a socialist. I believe in pulling together and working together. I also believe in being paid your worth. Problem is, the world has changed and it's everyone for themselves. That's depressingly sad, but that's how it is now. Other clubs, media and fanbases would fuck us over without a second thought, and do so. Maybe this is just Liverpool playing them at their own game now?
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 07:25:01 pm by Son of Spion* »
The light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, and you've burned so very, very brightly, Jürgen.

Online rob1966

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Lineker has just coughed in what sounded as embarrassment as he announce Villa v Leeds on Friday is on BT Sport on box office for £14.95.
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Offline WEST HAM PAUL

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I'd say your biggest worry right now is the shower that own your club.

Spot on
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Offline 4pool

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How a European Super League could happen and spell doom for the Champions League

Gabriele Marcotti
Senior Writer, ESPN FC


It's probably not a coincidence that reports of a breakaway European Super League resurfaced just as the Champions League returns. This is the classic story that won't go away and, at its heart, is about pitting the world's biggest football clubs against each other on a regular basis, or, at least, a more regular basis than the Champions League can offer.

Why play Burnley twice a year when you can play Barcelona instead, all while earning more money? And if you follow the U.S. major league blueprint -- a closed league with no promotion and relegation, maybe a salary cap -- you're on to a guaranteed money-spinner.

Talk of a Super League has been around since the 1990s and, with the sport globalized like never before, it has plenty of financial appeal to the lucky few who get to be a part of it. But that is all the Super League has been so far -- an idea, and almost nobody is willing to push the idea in public. As one executive told ESPN, "If it happens in our lifetime, it's going to happen now."

Why now? Because the pandemic is putting massive financial pressure on the sport. Let's dig into the issue.

So what brought back the idea of a Super League to replace the Champions League this time?

Reports in two outlets that don't usually deal in sport. Spanish digital business website Voz Populi wrote Tuesday morning that at least 18 European clubs were planning an NBA-style pan-European league that would effectively replace the Champions League as early as 2022.

A few hours later, Sky News reported essentially the same story with the added nugget that JP Morgan Chase was in talks to provide some $6 billion in debt financing.

The fact that both stories come from business reporters is relevant. It suggests that the information wasn't leaked by clubs hypothetically involved but rather from those trying to finance it.

Like who?

Private equity, funds, investors, anybody sitting on large piles of money who needs something to invest in during the pandemic. On the flip side, COVID-19 has hit hard and many clubs are starved for cash, mainly because of the way they're run: every penny that goes in usually goes back out, so everyone, to varying degrees, is facing cash flow issues now that broadcasters and sponsors are demanding rebates and stadiums aren't fully open to fans.

UEFA, which organizes the Champions League and Europa League, hasn't been spared either. They told clubs on Monday that nearly $600 million has been lost due to the pandemic and payouts to clubs will be reduced over the next five seasons. Folks are left squabbling over what's left of the pie, with bigger clubs less willing to share.

Hence, the project "Big Picture" fiasco, a radical plan to overhaul English football that would see control over the Premier League switch to the top teams.

But if the biggest clubs break away and form their own competition, surely they can sell their own TV and commercial rights. Why would they need private equity partners to bankroll them?

Because you can't set up a league and sell rights overnight. It takes time. And because clubs are so dependent on these revenues, they feel safer with a partner effectively guaranteeing the money over the first few seasons.

What's FIFA's role in all this?

FIFA issued a statement saying it "did not wish to comment and participate in any speculation about topics which come up every now and then" and said there were structures and frameworks to deal with them on a national, European and global level.

Not exactly a denial...

Not an endorsement, either. If you're a bit cynical, they're adopting a "wait and see" approach. What's clear is that making a break-away Super League work is easier with FIFA's backing.

Why is that?


Ultimately, FIFA licenses the game, and runs the international transfer market and international competitions such as the World Cup. If you set up a rogue league outside FIFA's umbrella, FIFA can ban your players from the World Cup, ban your clubs from the Club World Cup (no biggie right now, but down the road, that competition could grow into something more important) and ban your players from transferring to other clubs. It can also ask your national federation to kick you out of your league and, if they don't do it, suspend them.

So yeah, it's not impossible to go rogue, but it's very difficult.

Why would FIFA back this? Hasn't FIFA president Gianni Infantino talked about wanting to grow the game in every part of the world, not just Europe?

That's a good question. The relationship between FIFA and UEFA (and CONMEBOL) is not great. One sticking point is Infantino's plan for a biennial Club World Cup with 24 (or 32) teams, which could threaten UEFA's Champions League.

There's a scenario where you put together a series of closed continental super leagues beyond Europe, under FIFA's auspices, and the winners face off in the Club World Cup. For example, there's long been talk of an MLS / Liga MX merger, which would cover North America. Infantino has discussed how the best way for Africa to retain talent and grow the game was a pan-African Super League. You could easily replicate this in South America, possibly Asia too.

There's no mystery about who would love to see this: Real Madrid president Florentino Perez. He convened a meeting of clubs from around the world about a year ago and invited Infantino (but not, significantly, confederation heads). Could there be a bunch of continental super leagues with the top teams playing in a FIFA Club World Cup?

Do you think Infantino would back a European Super League?

We're in the realm of speculation here, but if he did, it would be a huge gamble, because it would instantly alienate UEFA and CONMEBOL, at a minimum. And his support elsewhere, outside of CONCACAF, isn't rock-solid. He'd have to sell member nations on the idea that this is part of some kind of global effort to promote and develop the sport across the world. That's a big ask, given he's up for reelection in 2023.

What about UEFA? Surely a European Super League would gut the Champions League. And what about the domestic leagues?

They're dismissing the idea as hot air, for now. They say the principles of solidarity, promotion, relegation and open leagues are non-negotiable and that a super league would inevitably become boring. But they've got to be a little nervous. Every few years, bigger clubs demand more of the pie and they want the pie to grow (which is why we'll likely get four more Champions League group stage games in 2024).

As for the domestic leagues, it's obviously a threat. Even if, say, Real Madrid was allowed to play in both La Liga and a Super League, it's obvious what would be prioritized. Not to mention the fact that an 18-team Super League, plus playoffs, plus a 20-team Liga would put the number of club fixtures north of 80 (and that's without counting domestic cup competitions). It's simply not sustainable.

And the clubs? Real Madrid, Liverpool and Manchester United are thought to be driving this?

They're not commenting officially, but it's pretty clear that they're listening to what's put in front of them. We're in a situation of massive uncertainty and it makes sense to at least consider every option. As we saw with Project Big Picture, even in the Premier League -- the most stable and lucrative domestic competition -- they're not averse to shaking things up if it benefits them.

That said, apart from perhaps Real Madrid -- Florentino has long been open about his vision -- most of the others need to be careful, for different reasons. Juventus and PSG sit on UEFA's executive committee as representatives of the European Clubs Association. They need to be loyal, at least outwardly, to UEFA. Bayern and Borussia Dortmund are likely to stay quiet as well, because of the fan-driven culture in Germany and the potential viciousness of a backlash.

There would likely be opposition in England, though it's not clear how much some of these owners would care and you could see how they might sell it to their supporters. After all, the Premier League itself was founded in 1992 by breaking away from the Football League and every Big Six club has a foreign-based owner who isn't necessarily wed to the traditional structure.

I think they're basically watching and waiting. They know they'll be invited along if it happens, but aren't going to go out on a limb to make it happen. If you don't like the Super League idea, there's some comfort in that, because if they don't come out and back it, it's unlikely to happen.

But it's also in their interest to make this threat real.

Why?

Because there is so much at stake in the next 18 months. The international match calendar runs out in 2024. The Champions League structure -- and revenue allocation -- is up for discussion. So is the structure of the domestic leagues. They are a part of these discussions and, if the clubs that back a Super League can put together a credible threat, they'll have more clout. The problem is that for the threat to be credible, they have to come out in the open. The same applies to FIFA.

We've been here before, by the way, in European basketball. In 2000, a number of major clubs split from FIBA, the governing body of basketball, and set up their own competition, the EuroLeague. We even had competing European tournaments for a season. Eventually they reached a compromise and the EuroLeague today is a competition that is essentially run by a small number of clubs who share the revenue and are guaranteed most of the spots. Commercially, it's been hugely successful.

So what's going to happen?

If you want me to speculate, I will. Realistically, for this to occur, you'd need three things: FIFA's involvement, clubs to come out in the open and a whole load of private equity cash.

I'm not sure you'll get all three to fall into place, certainly not as neatly and decisively as is needed for this to get off the ground. But if you start hearing clubs other than Real Madrid talk about how "nothing is off the table" and "we're exploring all options," then be prepared for a fight.
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Offline Samie

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FIFA president Gianni Infantino says he is not interested in a European Premier League.

“As FIFA president, I'm interested in the Club World Cup, not the Super League. For me, it's not about Bayern Munich against Liverpool, but Bayern against Boca Juniors."

Infantino: “Liverpool have 180m fans worldwide. Flamengo have 40m fans and 39m of them are in Brazil. Liverpool have maybe 5m fans in England and 175m fans around the world. I want clubs from outside Europe to have global appeal in the future.”

Offline Malaysian Kopite

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Don't think he's making the case he thinks he's making there
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Offline 4pool

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What Infantino is trying to say, he wants a breakaway Super League in each FIFA Confederation. With the top clubs from each going to the World Club Cup and have a Super Cup Final.
Either we are a club of supporters or become a club of customers.