Author Topic: Paris  (Read 183728 times)

Offline PhilScraton

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Paris
« on: May 30, 2022, 12:45:17 am »
What happened in the build-up to the European Cup Final in Paris is difficult to comprehend after all that has been researched and written about crowd safety, access to stadiums and fans arriving who require stewarding and guidance in gaining entry into unfamiliar grounds. Given the amount of revenue generated by one of the most prestigious international sports events, it is shocking that men, women and children arriving in good time at a stadium unfamiliar to them, were confined, crushed and tear-gassed by police in riot gear. The police justification for indiscriminately using tear gas as a response to ticketless fans is unsustainable. Sadly, the spectre of Hillsborough and what happened outside the ground in 1989 looms large once again.

Profoundly flawed organisation and deficient planning by UEFA, the stadium owners and the police; heavy and aggressive policing; scammers selling fake tickets and a lack of filtering the crowd in the approach to the stadium to extricate those with fake tickets or without tickets; and UEFA's seeming disregard for the prioritising fans' welfare, together contributed to a situation in which another tragedy was averted by chance. It was a shocking failure of judgement. Given all that is known about crowd safety in arrival at and access to mass events what happened in Paris, a major European City, defies credibility.


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Re: Paris
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2022, 12:50:13 am »
Well put.

It is utterly absurd how this has even a remote chance of occurring. Kafkaesque.
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Offline Johnny Aldridge

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Re: Paris
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2022, 01:23:17 am »
From what I have read and some news footage I’ve seen, it appears disaster was averted because of how our fans behaved. 20,000 people corralled into a bottleneck for 2-3 hours and pepper sprayed and tear gassed, and everyone got out safe. The Liverpool supporters obviously looked after one another and despite the treatment and provocation didn’t react. UEFA need holding to account for this, a bottleneck of 20,000 people heading for 2 turnstiles is criminal. Complete disregard and neglect for the fans who attended.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0PBu_YTu9wM
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Offline Johnny Aldridge

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Re: Paris
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2022, 01:51:10 am »
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nmHDUmCfSkk

Conor Moore was there last night, by his account you can hear how patient the Liverpool fans were.
One fan who’s ticket scanned fine gets maced and just keeps walking.
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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Paris
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2022, 02:16:00 am »
The observations of a board member for Football Supporters Europe, who is also a lawyer, in this Deutsche Welle piece are telling.

https://m.dw.com/en/what-went-wrong-at-the-champions-league-final/a-61969518

He says fake tickets weren't the issue and he also frustratingly points out that clubs, foreign police forces, players etc.  won't have any representatives at the French Ministry of Sport's meeting

Also if true this is notable and needs more coverage

Quote
Barthulemy adds that French police also have plenty to answer for. With away fans largely banned for club matches, Head of the Interior Ministry's anti-hooligan division Thibaut Delaunay's force is inexperienced in dealing with football matches.

"The man in charge of the policing of fans in France was in Qatar all week to organize the next World Cup, allegedly," said Barthulemy, who found Delaunay's absence problematic.

"His number two was on vacation and his number three was not easy to reach by phone. When we went to the stadium, we saw him, the chief of the department, and he was just showing people from Qatar the stadium. He had no walkie talkie, no earpiece, he was obviously not working the game. While everything was going down, he said 'Everything is going fine, there is no fighting, everything is a big success'."


Offline ep1987

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Re: Paris
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2022, 03:02:52 am »
French Sports Minister on Twitter: Bravo @realmadrid for this 14th title in #LigueDesChampions ! The attempts of intrusion and fraud by thousands of English fans have complicated the work of stewards and police forces but will not tarnish this victory. Violence has no place in the stadiums.

https://twitter.com/AOC1978/status/1530687125498351616?cxt=HHwWgMC-mZX1i74qAAAA

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Re: Paris
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2022, 03:15:48 am »
French Sports Minister on Twitter: Bravo @realmadrid for this 14th title in #LigueDesChampions ! The attempts of intrusion and fraud by thousands of English fans have complicated the work of stewards and police forces but will not tarnish this victory. Violence has no place in the stadiums.

https://twitter.com/AOC1978/status/1530687125498351616?cxt=HHwWgMC-mZX1i74qAAAA

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Re: Paris
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2022, 04:27:41 am »
Police lie.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2022, 05:12:17 am »
Looking at videos of lads rushing the turnstiles. These people aren’t Liverpool fans. They look like local lads trying to get in the match for free. They aren’t dressed as you would for a final.

Offline jambutty

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Re: Paris
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2022, 05:25:56 am »
Enough is enough.

It's time there was a class action suit against UEFA.

Only after a massive payout will they recognise the need for them to provide secure perimeters and entry at any major Final or Semi. 

Even major city police aren't prepared to deal with determined crowds over 50,000.

Video will emerge, all will be known.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2022, 05:46:46 am »
A lot of the French calling out their own Minister so they don't buy this bullshit either.

Unfortunately it seems like a lot of locals robbing us and jumping the gates and this is the youth of St Denis. One or two dickheads from us which is normal but the vast majority were local youths.

France shouldnt host a major sporting event again.  Uefa lied to blame our fans, police were brutal in their treatment. Luckily we have video evidence in this day and age to call out their lies. But it's too close to home this and we could of very nearly had another disaster.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 05:49:27 am by naYoRHa2b »

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Re: Paris
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2022, 06:09:52 am »
A lot of the French calling out their own Minister so they don't buy this bullshit either.

Unfortunately it seems like a lot of locals robbing us and jumping the gates and this is the youth of St Denis. One or two dickheads from us which is normal but the vast majority were local youths.

France shouldnt host a major sporting event again.  Uefa lied to blame our fans, police were brutal in their treatment. Luckily we have video evidence in this day and age to call out their lies. But it's too close to home this and we could of very nearly had another disaster.

Reassuring to know then that they will host the next Olympics.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2022, 06:12:56 am »
Reassuring to know then that they will host the next Olympics.

Olympics are a doddle.

Footy finals are a nightmare.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2022, 06:14:52 am »
Olympics are a doddle.

Footy finals are a nightmare.

Yep thats fair. Football fans are treated like shit as well by authorities.

Offline Indomitable_Carp

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Re: Paris
« Reply #14 on: May 30, 2022, 07:31:48 am »
I can´t speak for the stadium, other then going by what I´ve heard and read and it sounds shocking.

I would just like to say a word for the Fank Park 9kms away though. That was also very poorly organised. They were herding 50,000 people through two single-person entrances to check for booze. The fan park was also very long, with both entrances at just one end and no side entrances at all - so everyone needed to filter down from one side.

The police did seem fairly good natured at the gate in the daytime - although they were inevitably dressed up for battle. There was zero aggro of any description - the fan park was buzzing and it was a great time.

But contrary to the polices claim that there was no incidents at the fan park - the vibe had changed a bit later for the screening as a lot of Liverpool fans had filtered out and a lot of French neutrals came for the game (as they were perfectly entitled to do) - but I didn´t sense any aggro just people less arsed about the game.

A lot of people had left for food around 5pm, and so were trying to re-enter in time for the match - all 50,000 filtering through from one end. Once inside, loads of people had gathered at the first screen, rather then the 3 screens past it, so there was a crush to get past that first screen that felt very unsafe, and if something had caused a panic would have ended very badly.

After the match finished, my mate who was at the front screen got tear gassed, and people were saying that the tear gas had come over the fence and into the crowd - obviously creating a panic (and being at the very front they were furthest away from the entrances/exits as well).

Luckily we missed all of this at our screen. Just as luckily, when the match finished, the locals just pulled down the side fencing and we were able to exit swiftly without everyone having to cram back out the front entrances.

But then there was videos from that night of French police charging into bars full of Liverpool supporters and locals just outside the fan park, batons swinging and tear gas flowing.

I honestly think they had been stood around all day waiting for a fight, and when none arrived decided to kick off. My question is, why were they reporting that there was no incidents at the fan park unless they thought they had done something wrong?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2022, 07:33:50 am by Indomitable_Carp »

Offline Usman1987

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Re: Paris
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2022, 08:14:12 am »
Listening to French radio, and the events of Saturday are dominating the discussions. French media openly criticising the police operation and complimenting the patience of fans.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2022, 08:17:44 am »
Olympics are a doddle.

Footy finals are a nightmare.
the local youths will have a field day out there, older and family crowds will be much easier targets fucking shambles

Offline Circa1892

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Re: Paris
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2022, 08:18:29 am »
French Sports Minister on Twitter: Bravo @realmadrid for this 14th title in #LigueDesChampions ! The attempts of intrusion and fraud by thousands of English fans have complicated the work of stewards and police forces but will not tarnish this victory. Violence has no place in the stadiums.

https://twitter.com/AOC1978/status/1530687125498351616?cxt=HHwWgMC-mZX1i74qAAAA

Pound shop Le Pen there

Offline TeddyTime33

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Re: Paris
« Reply #18 on: May 30, 2022, 08:19:30 am »
From what I have read and some news footage I’ve seen, it appears disaster was averted because of how our fans behaved. 20,000 people corralled into a bottleneck for 2-3 hours and pepper sprayed and tear gassed, and everyone got out safe. The Liverpool supporters obviously looked after one another and despite the treatment and provocation didn’t react. UEFA need holding to account for this, a bottleneck of 20,000 people heading for 2 turnstiles is criminal. Complete disregard and neglect for the fans who attended.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0PBu_YTu9wM
agree with this, majority of us were calm and patient even with no information or guidance and this was highlighted by journalists on the ground 

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Re: Paris
« Reply #19 on: May 30, 2022, 08:27:24 am »
French Sports Minister on Twitter: Bravo @realmadrid for this 14th title in #LigueDesChampions ! The attempts of intrusion and fraud by thousands of English fans have complicated the work of stewards and police forces but will not tarnish this victory. Violence has no place in the stadiums.

https://twitter.com/AOC1978/status/1530687125498351616?cxt=HHwWgMC-mZX1i74qAAAA

From my rusty French it seems like a lot of French people are mocking that tweet and pinning the blame on the locals trying to bunk in. And good to see Dan Austin replying in (presumably!) impeccable French.

Offline ianburns252

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Re: Paris
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2022, 08:28:20 am »
I had a rant while on the way back from the stadium yesterday but here is a bit more of a collected account of what I experienced at the stadium.

I arrived at the underpass where the initial choke point was at around 6.30 and it seemed that before I had joined the flow of fans up the ramp had been quite steady so when we kept being held it seemed a bit odd.

Various rumours coming back through the crowd over whether this was a ticket check to create an exclusion zone to avoid ticketless fans near the stadium but no comms from the police and so you could feel people getting nervy and many were worried that as the crowd grew those at the back might compress the space and cause a crush.

As we reached the ramp up to the ground you could see 10s of people at least hoping the wall from the road that runs alongside it - nothing was done by the police manning this area.

Based on my texts I would say I reached the queue for gate Y at about 19.30 and at that point the queue ran to the corner of the fencing between gates X and Y

There was no queue control on the gate and so as more joined the queue became wider as well as longer - some stewarding outside the perimeter directing fans and helping manage the queues would certainly have made things a bit calmer and would likely have made their jobs easier.

Whilst in this queue it was noted by those around me that there were quite a lot of locals running about - again, had there been better controls and an exclusion zone this would not have been the case. Over and over we saw the local police chasing them and so tensions certainly grew as people were nervous about what might happen if any fighting broke out.

I could see gates X and Y clearly and both were initially a trickle of fans getting through. From gate X there was maybe 10 people over the course of the time I was there who tried to run through the checks to get in, everyone else was queuing properly and looking to get in with their own tickets.

We kept seeing more and more police in and outside the stadium perimeter and nerves were getting much worse. I'd say at maybe 8.15 or so a couple of journalists came over to film fans which created some tension because people thought they were UEFA rather than press but it was soon realised that they were basically disproving UEFA's claim (British people in "good at queuing" shocker...) and some began to speak with us to update on whether the game would be delayed.

Shortly after that was the first tear gassing - they did not directly gas us but we must have been in the dispersion area for it. I would guess that we got hit with between 6 and 8 waves of the gas but I can't be 100% certain.

At one point some fans did start rattling the exit gate near Y and the armed police did raise their weapons briefly but this came and went in the space of 30 seconds.

Maybe about 8.30 or so Dominic King of the Mail came over to where we were to relay what he knew and to speak to the fans - he too got caught in the gassing. At this point our only knowledge of what was going on was through him and a Spanish journalist who was also speaking to us.

I do think it helped considerably having someone there to let us know vaguely what was going on.

Stewards as a whole were rude and there was no one "in charge" to speak to the fans to try and explain the problems.

At about 10 the queue did finally start to move properly but there were still many many non Liverpool fans who were somehow getting up to the gates either with tickets that wouldn't scan (presumably fake but if copied by someone then I guess the other person's QR code superseded theirs) or with no tickets at all. These people predominantly had French accents so it was certainly not the Liverpool fans.

The stewards did seem to relish roughing up these people whilst expelling them from the ground.

All in all it was a stressful and quite scary experience. I was very worried that the armed police would be used against our fans as they kept coming past with shields and batons but they did seem more focused on the locals than us.

I'm glad to have a few months off football over summer after this.

Offline TSC

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Re: Paris
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2022, 08:33:17 am »
French Sports Minister on Twitter: Bravo @realmadrid for this 14th title in #LigueDesChampions ! The attempts of intrusion and fraud by thousands of English fans have complicated the work of stewards and police forces but will not tarnish this victory. Violence has no place in the stadiums.

https://twitter.com/AOC1978/status/1530687125498351616?cxt=HHwWgMC-mZX1i74qAAAA

A couple of the replies has footage of folk climbing in.  Look like local teens as previously reported.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2022, 08:38:23 am »
Thanks for posting that Ian, hope you’re ok.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2022, 08:41:25 am »
Fucked off would sum up how I feel right now.

I know that I suffered less than many others but having travelled Europe watching us, and going to other large events, I've never been on the receiving end of this treatment.

The closest that I've seen to it was Athens in 07 but I was lucky to have got in the stadium before the problems started and so it was more seeing fans flooding in, bloodshot eyes from the tear gas that was my experience that time.


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Re: Paris
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2022, 08:45:17 am »
Appalling. I would hope that Liverpool’s biggest sponsor and one of the biggest and highest profile French companies, AXA, takes their own government to task over this. The cowardly deflecting narrative has to be stopped and officials held to account. They seemed to be more interested in sucking up to vip guests from Qatar than doing their job.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #25 on: May 30, 2022, 08:45:38 am »
I’m on holiday so the coverage I saw may be different but what I did notice from the footage is that there was a very large group of local scallys being turned away, who I suspect had fake tickets.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #26 on: May 30, 2022, 08:50:34 am »
French Sports Minister on Twitter: Bravo @realmadrid for this 14th title in #LigueDesChampions ! The attempts of intrusion and fraud by thousands of English fans have complicated the work of stewards and police forces but will not tarnish this victory. Violence has no place in the stadiums.

https://twitter.com/AOC1978/status/1530687125498351616?cxt=HHwWgMC-mZX1i74qAAAA

Lying scumbag. Trying to cover up for their own negligence and incompetence and problems with Parisian society at large. I hope the club comes out strongly against this, we’ve been here before.
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Re: Paris
« Reply #27 on: May 30, 2022, 08:55:11 am »
This is good from local MP Ian Byrne who was there:

https://twitter.com/IanByrneMP/status/1531017492214304768
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

Offline Circa1892

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Re: Paris
« Reply #28 on: May 30, 2022, 08:56:57 am »
Lying scumbag. Trying to cover up for their own negligence and incompetence and problems with Parisian society at large. I hope the club comes out strongly against this, we’ve been here before.

I’d hope our government takes them to task. They hate Macron and you’d think your citizens being gassed by an aggressive foreign police would be an open goal for Johnson and co to take an actual moral high ground. Just a shame we’re the wrong citizens

Offline Hedley Lamarr

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Re: Paris
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2022, 08:59:44 am »
Luckily, people with a bit of profile were caught up in this mess because if it were just the fans, well, we're aware of what might happen then.

Not sure Nadine Dorries being on the case is a good thing mind.

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Re: Paris
« Reply #30 on: May 30, 2022, 09:03:07 am »
i've got tickets for the rugby next year.
think i'll skip.

glad that the worst was avoided

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Re: Paris
« Reply #31 on: May 30, 2022, 09:03:11 am »
Luckily, people with a bit of profile were caught up in this mess because if it were just the fans, well, we're aware of what might happen then.

Not sure Nadine Dorries being on the case is a good thing mind.

Ian Byrne has written straight to the Foreign Sec over it (not that Truss is any better). It shows it's beyond just a sporting matter though.
Could have done with Grujic and even Chirivella to tide us over this season

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Re: Paris
« Reply #32 on: May 30, 2022, 09:05:50 am »
This is good from local MP Ian Byrne who was there:

https://twitter.com/IanByrneMP/status/1531017492214304768

I saw an interview with Ian on telly last night when I got back.

He is a very VERY angry man and rightly so.

I hope he gets the full support of “The House” over this.

Offline gazzam1963

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Re: Paris
« Reply #33 on: May 30, 2022, 09:14:46 am »
Luckily, people with a bit of profile were caught up in this mess because if it were just the fans, well, we're aware of what might happen then.

Not sure Nadine Dorries being on the case is a good thing mind.

The fact it’s been so early before kick off most journos were caught in it , anytime an hour later they’d have been in the ground oblivious and using second hand accounts to report

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Re: Paris
« Reply #34 on: May 30, 2022, 09:17:32 am »
I can´t speak for the stadium, other then going by what I´ve heard and read and it sounds shocking.

I would just like to say a word for the Fank Park 9kms away though. That was also very poorly organised. They were herding 50,000 people through two single-person entrances to check for booze. The fan park was also very long, with both entrances at just one end and no side entrances at all - so everyone needed to filter down from one side.

The police did seem fairly good natured at the gate in the daytime - although they were inevitably dressed up for battle. There was zero aggro of any description - the fan park was buzzing and it was a great time.

I've not been at the Fanpark very long (I'd say from around 4 until a short while after Jamie Webster had finished), but the way they organised the entry to that, shows that creating a bottleneck with police vans like it reportedly happened at the stadium was a deliberate tactic they used. Did the same thing at the fan park and I was kind of surprised that when I walked over there from the "Nation" metro station the only way to get to the Fanpark was in between a row of police vans with big plastic containers at the side for people to throw in their bottles and cans with heavy police presence. I kind of thought that that was it and was surprised that there was another checkpoint which seemed to be the actual entrance. I had read messages in our WhatsApp group about what a pain in the arse it was getting into the Fanpark and again I was kind of surprised with how little hassle it was. Then again, clearly most people had already gotten in and I can see how it would have been a long wait to get past that initial check point. I get that they wanted to basically stop people from getting to the actual entrance carrying cans and bottles and having to get them to throw those away, but there was no need for creating such a bottleneck.

The atmosphere as far as the police are concerned, it did feel a bit like they were waiting for something to happen, but I didn't see anything that was kind of worrying. I'm also not quite sure what kind of police there was at the Fanpark, because there were all those cops in full riot gear, but I also saw some coppers in regular uniforms walking around. When I went back to the metro station "Nation" I saw three of them approach a bunch a guys who had a football which ended up at the feet of one of the policemen and when he stopped it with his foot the guys booed him only for the copper to pull of some weird trick with his feet which lead to cheering from the group. So, it looked very good natured, but I didn't really see what was going on, but it looked like a more positive exchange compared to the guys in full riot gear...

Offline PIPA23

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Re: Paris
« Reply #35 on: May 30, 2022, 09:20:30 am »
A total disaster that could have ended with a worse tragedy, especially after what happened in Paris before in front of the same stadium.

they should be punished as this had also affected the players and staff of both teams.

Offline rob1966

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Re: Paris
« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2022, 09:25:16 am »
I've already had the usual "turned up without tickets shite" from Manc c*nts.
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Offline royhendo

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Re: Paris
« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2022, 09:34:52 am »
Massive credit to the way the people on the end of it, given the context, history and direct personal experience a lot of the people there would have had. It's testament to their resilience that they effectively managed the situation themselves. Disgusting situation.
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Offline Charlie Adams fried egg

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Re: Paris
« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2022, 09:38:37 am »
I've already had the usual "turned up without tickets shite" from Manc c*nts.
Well they're a pretty gullible lot.
Not sure there's too much for them to get on their high horses about though either.
Funny, yet predicable and sad thing about all this is that the last 12 months or so have seen some appalling scenes which are all brushed over when there's a chance to have a go at the Scousers.

We've seen a game called off due to thuggery aided and abetted by a high profile TV pundit.
We've seen mass bunking at a major final hosted in this country accompanied by terrible scenes outside.
We've seen a marked increase in pitch invasions.
We've seen invasions were staff and players from opposing teams have been targeted.

None of the above has involved us, but yet again when appalling organisation puts fans in danger, these mutants come out with their familiar bile and any attempt at context will be met by their usual snide retorts.

When the red Mancs used to get to big games, they'd also travel in big numbers, but maybe they've forgotten what it's like.

Offline CaseRed

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Re: Paris
« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2022, 09:48:41 am »
Didnt go to the stadium but entry to the fan park was not good either. We got there around 12 and the queue was in place through the 2 bottlenecks someone else has mentioned. Barely moved for about 2 hours and then started filtering through really slowly.

Fans were absolutely spot on. It could have gone south quickly if people started pushing in the funnels between the vans but everyone was great. Think we got in there around half 2 to 3 in the end but not sure.

Fortunately we left to watch the match elsewhere so missed getting gassed as well.

Getting back to the hotel was a bit moody but managed to get an Uber in the end.

For us, sounds like we had a better, albeit not great experience than lots.