Author Topic: Financial Results these are a year old  (Read 66550 times)

Offline OneKop

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #40 on: May 7, 2010, 11:28:31 am »
As above  :'(
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Offline cambridge

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #41 on: May 7, 2010, 12:04:51 pm »
Can someone more financially minded clear something up for me..............is the starting price for the Club now at £351 million?

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #42 on: May 7, 2010, 12:14:11 pm »
Can someone more financially minded clear something up for me..............is the starting price for the Club now at £351 million?

Those cnuts have probably set the starting price at £800m and will expect to come down from that.
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #43 on: May 7, 2010, 12:16:31 pm »
Why would RBS care where the money comes from as long as they ensure that their debt takes priority over anything lent by G&H or another lender.

And who would lend them money on those terms?  Where you only get paid after the huge existing debts are paid.  Where you only get your interest payments once the huge existing interest payments have been paid.
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #44 on: May 7, 2010, 12:18:49 pm »
All this info won't be new news to RBS, in fact they'll know exactly what the situation is currently not nearly 12 months ago which is what this is. They'll also know (and have agreements in place) just when they get paid back in terms of other debts the club have.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #45 on: May 7, 2010, 12:24:42 pm »
All this info won't be new news to RBS, in fact they'll know exactly what the situation is currently not nearly 12 months ago which is what this is. They'll also know (and have agreements in place) just when they get paid back in terms of other debts the club have.

I know that mate, but my understanding is that these accounts predate the debt paydown and as such contain no information on where the money from that debt paydown came from.  I am willing to be corrected if someone shows that the debt paydown occurred earlier than previously reported. 
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #46 on: May 7, 2010, 12:26:06 pm »
It does not imply that at all.  I would like someone to confirm if they now for sure when the debt was paid down. I was under the impression that it was agreed in June 09, with a timeframe that so it actually paid in September 09.  If that is the case then it falls outside these accounts.

That is correct.

Source: C. Purslow.
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Offline incredibleL4ever

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #47 on: May 7, 2010, 12:35:34 pm »
That is correct.

Source: C. Purslow.

If new shares were allotted in Kop Holdings dont they have to be registered with the Companeis Office within a month or something? 
And it would have to be noted in the accounts as a post balance sheet event.

p.s. I think Purslow cant be taken at his word.  He says something which is technically correct but might not be the full story.  There is a difference between the truth and the whole truth.
« Last Edit: May 7, 2010, 12:42:49 pm by incredibleL4ever »

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #48 on: May 7, 2010, 12:43:31 pm »
If new shares were allotted in Kop Holdings dont they have to be registered with the Companeis Office within a month or something? 
And it would have to be noted in the accounts as a post balance sheet event.

I'm not up on the post balance sheet stuff - but allocations of new shares should be registered but they wouldn't appear on these accounts unless, as you mention, there was a need to record it as a post balance sheet event.
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #49 on: May 7, 2010, 12:45:42 pm »
That is correct.

Source: C. Purslow.

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Offline ttnbd

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #50 on: May 7, 2010, 12:48:48 pm »
ignore what coop says about the auditors concerns except the going concern issue. he has mis-read the auditors report. parry's pay off was 3m.
graham no new shares have been issued or created in the uk companies as the would have to be registered with companies house
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Offline ttnbd

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #51 on: May 7, 2010, 12:50:15 pm »
and did purslow actually say they said through equity or just their own money?
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #52 on: May 7, 2010, 12:50:33 pm »
ignore what coop says about the auditors concerns except the going concern issue. he has mis-read the auditors report. parry's pay off was 3m.
graham no new shares have been issued or created in the uk companies as the would have to be registered with companies house

Thought as much - does it look like the money Purslow said they put in may have been money they loaned to the Club to pay down the RBS debt, as we suspected i.e they have just replaced debt to RBS to debt to them (at a higher rate of cost to the Club) ?
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #53 on: May 7, 2010, 12:51:08 pm »
£3m is still a pretty substantial pay out. Did well for himself out of the yanks what with the bonus for bringing them in and the pay-out for leaving a job he did incompetently.

didn't he specifically use the word equity?

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #54 on: May 7, 2010, 12:54:41 pm »
and did purslow actually say they said through equity or just their own money?

His quote was "wrote a cheque" to pay down the debt.
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Offline incredibleL4ever

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #55 on: May 7, 2010, 01:00:08 pm »
His quote was "wrote a cheque" to pay down the debt.

I think the essence of what we are trying to establish is on what terms was that cheque written, i.e what money, if any, will the club be expected to shell out each year in relation to this cheque.  I use loose terms because the likes of Purslow at clever at saying things like there is no interest to pay when there is some other payment required which has a different name e.g fees, expenses, dividend etc. etc.

Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #56 on: May 7, 2010, 01:17:44 pm »
I think the essence of what we are trying to establish is on what terms was that cheque written, i.e what money, if any, will the club be expected to shell out each year in relation to this cheque.  I use loose terms because the likes of Purslow at clever at saying things like there is no interest to pay when there is some other payment required which has a different name e.g fees, expenses, dividend etc. etc.

It says its payable on demand as long as it doesn't make us insolvent.

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #57 on: May 7, 2010, 01:19:09 pm »
The auditors notes are a laugh, eh? Oh what a jolly wheeze. Projecting the performance forward to the present day would be pure speculation obviously, but you can only assume we're in a perilous state.

Offline BazC

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #58 on: May 7, 2010, 01:26:16 pm »
That 'loan' they gave to pay down the RBS debt will have been so they didn't lose out on sale of the club right? If they'd have paid it off with equity, then they wouldn't have gotten most of it back in all liklihood. With debt, however, it'll be paid back by any new owner.
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Offline vanoord

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #59 on: May 7, 2010, 01:27:06 pm »
His quote was "wrote a cheque" to pay down the debt.

The money has come in via a Cayman Islands registered company, hence there's no way of knowing where it came from originally.

There's three main options:

(a) It was cash (equity) that Gillett / Hicks had lying around

(b) It's been put in by some sort of investors, equity fund or similar - then rinsed through Kop Football (Cayman) to hide the source

(c) It's been borrowed in the States by Gillett / Hicks - then rinsed through Kop Football (Cayman) to hide the source


If I was a gambling man, I'd go for 10% (a) and 90% (c)

But ye gotta know where ye're just gonna rush in. Ye cannae just rush in anywhere. It looks bad, havin' to rush oout again straight awa'..

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #60 on: May 7, 2010, 01:37:04 pm »
It seems maj was right all along regarding the two kuntz lending money to the club to reduce the debt.

As much as its hard for me to say this I will. We will not win the league under GG and Hicks. People can dream all they want. its a fantasy which fans have been living since we signed players that had to be paid for with bank loans under GG and Hicks. Our owners just want to make as much from the club through a scam which they are running by charging us over the odds interest for a loan which we should only be paying appx 5% per annum not the fucking 10% they are charging. Ask yourself, if you owned LFC would you charge 10% interest on so called loans you gave the club.?? They have no love for the club and their whole intention was to sell and now they are here for a while they want to make the profit they would have from a good sale by charging us over the odds interest. Karma has a way of dealing things, and if you have no love for something you will never succeed.GG and hicks have no love for LFC. Before anybody says im speculating I aint speculating shit, i have the numbers. Just like in the other thread when people said we are not paying appx 5% i came up and showed the figures.

its time people realised we are getting fucked over financially and started waking up. Rememeber when the titanic sunk, all those dozy prats kept on playing poker, and dancing and thought nothing of it. Oh thte titanic wont sink its only a iceberg. trust me if people on here think LFC can survive the way its going your just as bad as the people on the titanic who ended up drowning. The mere fact that we owe GG and Hicks interest money which is 10% of what they have supposedly already borrowed us not taking into account the new refinance money which they will class as loans to us through their company, you will see we are basically fucked. We cannot afford to pay them interest money.


... and

"Guys, the 250 million which is quoted is only to the banks. GG and Hicks borrowed lfc money and its in the club accounts at 10% interest charge. Its a matter of time before they want it back. The only reason they havent is because lfc is skint because of them 2."
« Last Edit: May 7, 2010, 01:39:47 pm by Michael Osmann »
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Offline RJH

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #61 on: May 7, 2010, 01:42:01 pm »
So turnover has increased from the previous year, but the loss is even bigger?

Not good. Really fucking not good.

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #62 on: May 7, 2010, 01:47:58 pm »
It would be useful if someone could give a clear interpretation of these figures and what they mean.

And if they mean what we think they mean, what the hell can be done to stop it?
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Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #63 on: May 7, 2010, 01:53:20 pm »
It would be useful if someone could give a clear interpretation of these figures and what they mean.
Indeed.

And if they mean what we think they mean, what the hell can be done to stop it?
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #64 on: May 7, 2010, 02:13:10 pm »
How the hell did we lose £54m?
How did we lose that much??
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Offline redprodigal

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #65 on: May 7, 2010, 02:38:12 pm »
It doesn't look good but I'm honest enough to admit I don't have a clue what it all means.
I will wait until one of our experts deciphers this and puts it down in idiot-proof format before I make any comments.

Offline rocco

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #66 on: May 7, 2010, 02:41:32 pm »
Just 1 Question .....

The Debt at £351m was up to July 09 .......... but we have been told the debt is £237m  , could £114m been paid off  from August 09 to the time we were told by Purslow it was £237m ?

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #67 on: May 7, 2010, 02:48:41 pm »
Just 1 Question .....

The Debt at £351m was up to July 09 .......... but we have been told the debt is £237m  , could £114m been paid off  from August 09 to the time we were told by Purslow it was £237m ?

That's what we were told - the debt was reduced by £120m. However it looks like this might have been by the owners replacing debt to the Banks to debts to themselves. No improvement for the Club, but big improvement for the banks.
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Offline rocco

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #68 on: May 7, 2010, 02:55:18 pm »
That's what we were told - the debt was reduced by £120m. However it looks like this might have been by the owners replacing debt to the Banks to debts to themselves. No improvement for the Club, but big improvement for the banks.

 Cheers .... thats what i expected when i posted a while back a figure of £367m-£400m would be the lowesrt figure we could hope the yanks to accept .....


One last question ..

There's £144m loaned into Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd from Kop Football (Cayman) - we're currently owing £8m of unpaid interest on that.


Whats that about ....

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #69 on: May 7, 2010, 03:00:13 pm »
Cheers .... thats what i expected when i posted a while back a figure of £367m-£400m would be the lowesrt figure we could hope the yanks to accept .....


One last question ..

There's £144m loaned into Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd from Kop Football (Cayman) - we're currently owing £8m of unpaid interest on that.


Whats that about ....

The Cayman company is shrouded in secrecy as it is offshore.

This is again probably money introduced by the owners but due back to the Cayman company from the Club ultimately.
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Offline the 92A

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #70 on: May 7, 2010, 03:02:27 pm »
Quote from: Veinticinco de Mayo on Today at 09:39:35 AM
Tim, thanks very much for posting that.  If you find anything more of interest in them then please post them up.   Regardless of the flak you get your contributions on these matters are far more useful than those of a hundred dumb sheep reading from the same hymnsheet.
 
 
Was going to say the same, Tim's breaking down of past figues has been a very important contibution in trying to understand, the smoke and mirrors.
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Offline rocco

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #71 on: May 7, 2010, 03:05:51 pm »
The Cayman company is shrouded in secrecy as it is offshore.

This is again probably money introduced by the owners but due back to the Cayman company from the Club ultimately.
Cheers ....

So is it part of the £351 debt registered in July 2009 and then part of the debt we were told of £237m by Pourslow ...

defo last question

Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #72 on: May 7, 2010, 03:06:58 pm »
Cheers .... thats what i expected when i posted a while back a figure of £367m-£400m would be the lowesrt figure we could hope the yanks to accept .....


One last question ..

There's £144m loaned into Kop Football (Holdings) Ltd from Kop Football (Cayman) - we're currently owing £8m of unpaid interest on that.


Whats that about ....

There is 10% interest on that money as well. It was £58m in 2008 and then when RBS asked for money to be repaid off loans then Kop Cayman loaned it to the club to pay off so hence why we now have £145m from Kop Cayman now. The interest is just rolled up on top of this every year and is payable on demand.

Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #73 on: May 7, 2010, 03:16:50 pm »
Cheers ....

So is it part of the £351 debt registered in July 2009 and then part of the debt we were told of £237m by Pourslow ...

defo last question

I think it is part of the £351m but not the £237m.
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #74 on: May 7, 2010, 03:28:48 pm »
Hold up.I an thick regarding this type of stuff(and most other type)
but am i right in saying
Owners pay off interest off loans from RBS by loaning the club that money from this caymen group.They also pay for transfers for a bit from this account(Torres was out of their pockets according to them)(again in loans to the club)
They then repay those loans back with 10% interest.(144m paid back so 120m was initail loan with the owners making 24million profit on those loans)
So they have found a way to get another 24m out of the club even when it's making losses.
I would image RBS are not to happy.
Boy we are being fucked over and over.
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Offline Paul Gardner

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #75 on: May 7, 2010, 03:35:10 pm »
I think it is part of the £351m but not the £237m.

This is where the financial experts come in.

That £351m is made up of other different things from what I can see. There is £234m (£3m extra as some fees) in loans from RBS and then there is £145m via Kop Cayman so that means total debt is £379m.  £200m loan from RBS is to Kop and then there is up to £97m to LFC for working capital of which we had only took £50m as of the end of January this year. This credit facility was due to be renewed on 24th Jan and was done so until 3rd March so don't know what current state of play is with that. Probably down to the reported renewal as part of putting the club up for sale.

Offline Zappa

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #76 on: May 7, 2010, 03:36:54 pm »
It would be useful if someone could give a clear interpretation of these figures and what they mean.

And if they mean what we think they mean, what the hell can be done to stop it?

It's how accountants and External Auditors operate the world around. They'd deny it of course but the deliberately present the figures in a way that you can only fully understand if you have access to the transactional data that makes each item up.

Nothing sinister here it is just the way they do it. Accountancy has had several attempts at what can be best understood if I call it a "plain english" campaign. But each time they do the issue is fudged.

The external auditors role is to tell the outside world that the accounts look to be accurate and truthful. The auditors are legally required to sign up any concerns with the actual figures (eg if the bad debt provision was unrealistically low they would have to say so) They are also required to comment on Governance (ie that risks are being controlled reasonably) and also have to comment on "going concern" (whether the numbers suggest that the business can keep trading - income will exceed outgoings etc)

The external auditors can be taken to court if they screw up. Because of this all the statements have a great tendancy to be vague and guarded, ultra cautious and plastered with caveats.

Think of ENron etc etc - all the big balls-ups that the external auditors missed.

Any caveat in the auditors statement is a "qualification". Companies want unqualified sign-off for their figures.

It is unusual for the auditors to qualify accounts with respect to "going concern" I am guessing in this case that it is because the figures lack clarity and transparency. It does not necessarily mean that the sky is about to fall in, but it clearly signals concern.

In a plc, qualified accounts would prompt a swift response - possibly director resignation, possibly changes to the way some part of the accounts are reported.In the case of a privately owned company, all it really does is undermine their credit rating. There are rumours of the cowboys paying 15% interest on their borrowings, the qualified accounts won't have helped them negotiate rates.

If I get hold of the accounts late tonight I'll try and see if I can spot any real info in them.

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #77 on: May 7, 2010, 03:37:24 pm »
So do we know ...

Debt to the RBS/Wal  today  £x
Debt to Whoever else which is not owed to RBS/WAL £x

ans is the club only liable to the debt to RBS/Wal ...... or whats the situation ..

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #78 on: May 7, 2010, 03:37:54 pm »
Can someone please tell me what they have spent nearly 400 million pound on?
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Offline Graham Smith

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #79 on: May 7, 2010, 03:39:09 pm »
So do we know ...

Debt to the RBS/Wal  today  £x
Debt to Whoever else which is not owed to RBS/WAL £x

ans is the club only liable to the debt to RBS/Wal ...... or whats the situation ..

No - as these accounts are 12 months old.
Hunt Bromley got Ringo

@GPS1892