Author Topic: Financial Results these are a year old  (Read 66549 times)

Offline mickeydocs

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #120 on: May 7, 2010, 10:55:45 pm »
This is truly truly depressing and to think we openly applauded the arrival of these thieving bastards. The future is bleak.
It’s easy to believe when it’s going well.

Offline redmen77

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #121 on: May 7, 2010, 11:09:52 pm »
"Reduced bank borrowings means the club are unlikely to go broke but because Liverpool have so much debt, Hicks and Gillett will resist cutting their asking price to the market valuation of £350 million."

More guessing from TB. Are we assuming that Broughton was bullshitting when he said there is no asking price, just a willing seller looking for a buyer?

Offline rocco

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #122 on: May 7, 2010, 11:23:00 pm »
"Reduced bank borrowings means the club are unlikely to go broke but because Liverpool have so much debt, Hicks and Gillett will resist cutting their asking price to the market valuation of £350 million."

More guessing from TB. Are we assuming that Broughton was bullshitting when he said there is no asking price, just a willing seller looking for a buyer?

market value of £350m not asking price ...

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #123 on: May 7, 2010, 11:37:29 pm »
I think the real fear is that the debt will be serviced by player sales...
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Zeb

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #124 on: May 8, 2010, 01:17:30 am »
nvm
« Last Edit: May 8, 2010, 01:29:58 am by Zeb »
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Offline Manila Vanilla

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #125 on: May 8, 2010, 05:30:30 am »
There’s a play by Ionesco called “Le Roi Se Meurt” (usually translated as “Exit the King”). It’s allegorical about how you should accept the inevitability of death. The King is told at the start of the play that he will die by the end. He goes through stages of denial, anger, futile revolt, powerlessness and depression as everything around him crumbles. Finally, be bows to the inevitable.

This whole tragi-farce has had the same stages of development and inevitability. The latest figures bear that out. EBITDA comes a poor second to common sense.

We knew as soon as the debt was transferred onto the club that we were screwed. As I recall, Timbo’s Goals was the first person to highlight the futility of our position in this (now amalgamated) thread of over two years ago (Does Liverpool FC have a Future?) http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=213798.0. Since then we’ve had all the stages of denial. The debt is on the holding company, the transfer fund is separate, Parry and Moores can block them, they can’t asset strip as players will refuse to leave (still believe that?), we’re LFC, we couldn’t become another Leeds… Well, now we’re talking about our ability to complete next season’s fixture list. It was obvious then that we stood every chance of becoming a charitable case, needing someone to rescue us.

A club breaking even with a turnover of £120M can’t suddenly pay 40M in interest. Even if you get your revenues up by £40M it’s profit that pays the bills. Every football club finds ways of spending its extra cash and quickly getting back to breakeven again. This can usually be achieved through normal football expenditure – transfer fees, improved contracts, agents fees and, in our case, the up-front costs of developing a new commercial structure. We’ve also managed to fritter it away on bank fees, additional directors, travel expenses, pay-offs and a fictional stadium. Even if the fictional stadium had become reality it is not certain that it would have done much more than pay for itself.

We set off like a boxer with a cut eye, knowing we needed a quick knock-out or defeat was inevitable. The initial euphoria of cash spent on Torres, Mascherano and others got us close but finished by increasing our debt and draining our energy. Now we’re on the ropes and getting battered.

The only benefit to owning LFC (or any club) is to be able to say “I’m the owner of LFC” and to get a free ticket for every match. And the only person who seemed to know what he was getting into was Abramovich. He’s enhanced his personal reputation, bought a level of political immunity, shown he can manage (who else had poached an MD?) and, yes, he even appears to enjoy his free ticket…

Hicks has made the error of becoming fixated with revenue, not profit. He believes that revenue has a direct link with perceived value of the club. Well, revenue’s gone up but I can’t see people rushing in. Why should they? They’ll get a much better price if they allow us to decline that bit more – or walk away if we’re on our last legs. Hicks and Gillett have been in a desperate position for a long time, despite their bravado. Their main tactic seems to be “Anyone moves and the kid gets it…”

It’s difficult to see a way out, other than one that involves destruction and pain. If Gillett and Hicks were to sell at a profit then the problem perpetuates. Someone else is left wondering how to get his money back. We may need to wipe the slate clean and start again. We may actually find that Rafa’s transfer dealings help the club in ways we hadn’t imagined. The profit on an Alonso or a Torres may yet keep the wolf from the door. Could anyone have seen him becoming the Dario Grady of the Premier League?

Like all good tragedies, most of the audience could see it coming from the start. We’ve had the denial, calls to revolt, powerlessness and many have now reached the stage of depression. The ancient Greeks solved the problem in these dramas by using a Deus ex Machina, a god who descends from the rafters and sorts everything out. We're now reduced to hoping for the same.
« Last Edit: May 8, 2010, 05:45:47 am by Manila Vanilla »

Offline Rome 84

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #126 on: May 8, 2010, 07:34:13 am »
Quote from: Tepid water on Yesterday at 09:56:11 PM
£472.5 million? ???

How did he get that number???       


 It's in the accounts. It's the gross figure that the club would have to pay if it had to pay everyone they owe, every single penny of what they owe tomorrow. This kind of scenario will probably be known as the Portsmouth situation in years to come. Remember all those figures about Portsmouth owing the taxman, florist, milkman etc? This is the Liverpool version.
« Last Edit: May 8, 2010, 08:22:43 am by Alan_F »

Offline robb95

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #127 on: May 8, 2010, 08:10:47 am »


tony what did you think? Jerno aside, do you think things have gotten worse as these dates are upto what,end of July? Now this is what's forcing the banks to force them etc.

Where all moaning saying it's 350+ but that was 9 months ago... What now?
 
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Offline LiamG

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #128 on: May 8, 2010, 08:18:55 am »
How the hell has there been a £22m charge on stadium costs?!

Offline TepidT2O

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #129 on: May 8, 2010, 08:19:10 am »
Ok I see....
So I guess that means all outstanding transfer debt etc etc

Still G&H must love flowers even more than Elton John at that rate.

I am genuinely concerned that the club will cease to exist in two years time, the debt is snowballing out of control and creating still more debt.

I can't see how it can continue as a going concern without a massive injection of equity, those not wanting a sugar daddy need to get a reality check.

Ta fo the info anyway, Im off to throw myself under a woman Im so depressed.
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Offline robb95

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #130 on: May 8, 2010, 08:22:10 am »
Sorry just read the your artical then, that would make sense in a way.

However the accounts don't show the 100 mill pay down - Alonso sale.
So why so high Tony? It's not a hard question. 

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Offline King Tay

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #131 on: May 8, 2010, 08:45:47 am »
There’s a play by Ionesco called “Le Roi Se Meurt” (usually translated as “Exit the King”).

That is one hell of a post.

Offline redmen77

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #132 on: May 8, 2010, 08:57:07 am »
market value of £350m not asking price ...
market value of £350m not asking price ...
"Reduced bank borrowings means the club are unlikely to go broke but because Liverpool have so much debt, Hicks and Gillett will resist cutting their asking price to the market valuation of £350 million."
Rocco, read it again!

Offline Jack Slater

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #133 on: May 8, 2010, 09:15:18 am »
"is such that Martin Broughton, Liverpool’s recently appointed chairman, had to appear before the Premier League to offer assurances that the club will be able to fulfil their fixtures for next season.
Broughton ran Liverpool’s accounts by League officials before submitting them to Companies House in an effort to ensure that the club would be granted a Uefa licence for the 2010-11 season. His efforts were supported by RBS, which offered a non-binding assurance of cash to the League. The licence has been granted."


Think im going to get sick ....


No-one should underestimate the risks of us following Leeds and Portsmouth.  (On balance of probabilities, we will not do so).

However, this is a bit of sensationalism.

Every one of the hundreds of  clubs applying for a UEFA licence each year must provide an up to date financial statement to the licensing body, and certify that, and satisfy the licensing body that, they will be able to fulfil their fixtures for the whole season.

The article implies that LFC had to do something unusual, which isnt true.  (To be fair, LFC might have had to do a bit more explaining to do than some other clubs, due to KPMG's comment in the accounts.  But the actual process of showing the accounts to the PL is bog standard.)




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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #134 on: May 8, 2010, 09:16:51 am »
Do they actually have to appear in person when they provide the statement though, Jack?

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #135 on: May 8, 2010, 09:23:34 am »
How in the world could the meeting of Broughton and Benitez be constructive when it is clear as day that the club don't have a penny and it is more likely that player sales will occur rather than player purchases?
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Jack Slater

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #136 on: May 8, 2010, 09:32:19 am »
Do they actually have to appear in person when they provide the statement though, Jack?

I very much doubt it. 

Is it being alleged that LFC had to?





Offline Roman Maroney

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #137 on: May 8, 2010, 09:43:33 am »
Quote from: Tepid water on Yesterday at 09:56:11 PM
£472.5 million? ???

How did he get that number???       


I am still getting my head around the verified increase from £240M to £350M... now it appears that the club debt in a ludicrous £472.5M !

Where has all this extra money come from when you consider that club debt and purchase price was in the region of circa £220M when Moores sold it ?!

What has the extra £252.5M gone on?
 - I have seen numbers of £45M for the fictional stadium - has all this just been transferred to the owners mates companies?
 - with interest payments now massive, then I see the usual Rafa transfer spend of av £16M per season must go on the debt, but that would only mean circa £50M
 - even if I assumed interest payments of £30M per season, then that gives circa £90M for three years

Thumb nail numbers, if everything went on the club debt, makes  just under £200M.  I am no accountant (as you can tell from the above)... but where is all this extra money haemorrhaging from?




 It's in the accounts. It's the gross figure that the club would have to pay if it had to pay everyone they owe, every single penny of what they owe tomorrow. This kind of scenario will probably be known as the Portsmouth situation in years to come. Remember all those figures about Portsmouth owing the taxman, florist, milkman etc? This is the Liverpool version.
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Offline rocco

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #138 on: May 8, 2010, 10:25:36 am »

No-one should underestimate the risks of us following Leeds and Portsmouth.  (On balance of probabilities, we will not do so).

However, this is a bit of sensationalism.

Every one of the hundreds of  clubs applying for a UEFA licence each year must provide an up to date financial statement to the licensing body, and certify that, and satisfy the licensing body that, they will be able to fulfil their fixtures for the whole season.

The article implies that LFC had to do something unusual, which isnt true.  (To be fair, LFC might have had to do a bit more explaining to do than some other clubs, due to KPMG's comment in the accounts.  But the actual process of showing the accounts to the PL is bog standard.)




cheers jack...

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #139 on: May 8, 2010, 10:52:42 am »
How in the world could the meeting of Broughton and Benitez be constructive when it is clear as day that the club don't have a penny and it is more likely that player sales will occur rather than player purchases?
It is not in the Club, or G&H's interests for Rafa to go, Juve isnt quite as an attractive bolthole as Rafa might at first have imagined, there is a deal to be done.
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #140 on: May 8, 2010, 10:56:30 am »
Massive respect to Manilla Vanilla for his brilliantly observed post above.

His points on Abrahamovic appointing an experienced MD ,and on him actually enjoying going to the match, were particularly well made.
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #141 on: May 8, 2010, 11:06:50 am »

What pisses me off (and I know I'm being a bit petty) is that the LFC manager had to go to London for a meeting. 



Yes, that is strange. Are we still called Liverpool by the way?
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Offline Zeb

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #142 on: May 8, 2010, 11:16:13 am »
If TB is going to use gross debt as the measure of 'total debt', shouldn't he be adding in the 9 million which is currently due to be paid after 31st July 2010?

Roman - the figure TB is using is correct but a little misleading. eg It doesn't take into account money Liverpool is owed.

Essentially that £472 million breaks down to the following major bits:

Money owed to banks - £233 million
Money owed to H&G - £144 million
Transfers - £35 million
Money we've been paid in advance like sponsorship and season tickets for 2009/10 season - £28 million
Stuff we haven't been billed for yet - £16 million
Taxman - £14 million
« Last Edit: May 8, 2010, 11:19:33 am by Zeb »
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #143 on: May 8, 2010, 11:33:33 am »
Either Rafa wants to stay, in which case it is reasonable for him to ask about the budget that he will have this summer, and essenial for the club to tell him.Or else Rafa wants to go, and it was important for the club to arrange a meeting so that he can't allege that he was sidelined and thereby constrctively dismissed.

My view is that there is nothing to gain, and much to lose, for the club by Rafa going. I think that it is wholly reasonale for Rafa to ask his agent to sound out impending managerial vacancies in case either he regards this summers transfer budget as unworkable ,or a new owner does not want him.

I think that the Club are right to be pissed off by Rafa's handling of the Juve situation. There is nowhere for them to go. He is under contract. they are trying to sell. There is no new money. Stay, or go, don't moan. How has it happened? Rafa is a fine football manager, but I have not been impressed by his handling of people situations. I believe this to be part sheer misjudgement on his part, and part hubris, "Juve love me even if you dont".

Rafa's "constructive dismissal" moment was last summer, IF he was lied to on transfers. A year down the line I suspect his position is considerably weaker.
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #144 on: May 8, 2010, 11:50:34 am »
I very much doubt it. 

Is it being alleged that LFC had to?


Yes.
'is such that Martin Broughton, Liverpool’s recently appointed chairman, had to appear before the Premier League to offer assurances that the club will be able to fulfil their fixtures for next season.'

Significant? I would think so.

On the meeting with Rafa, one of the other fora says that reports in Italy are suggesting Rafa has asked for 10 days grace before giving a decision to Juve. I would think if true that would imply more meetings next week. If I were Rafa I'd want to discuss the future with Broughton as well as Purslow, given that there would appear to be a breakdown in his relationship with the latter, and if that meant going to the mountain, it would be worth it.

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #145 on: May 8, 2010, 12:04:13 pm »
Lets be honest here guys after looking at last seasons accounts, and no doubt about it this year has got a whole lot worse with no CL revenue I dont think they have the money to sack Rafa and thats why he will still be here next season unless he decides to walk away with nothing.
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #146 on: May 8, 2010, 12:07:36 pm »
"....as well as £144.4m owed to the club’s American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, via their Kop Football (Cayman) Limited company."

so does this mean the club OWE the Americans money? fuckin' hell how the hell does that work.
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #147 on: May 8, 2010, 12:09:58 pm »
Lets be honest here guys after looking at last seasons accounts, and no doubt about it this year has got a whole lot worse with no CL revenue I dont think they have the money to sack Rafa and thats why he will still be here next season unless he decides to walk away with nothing.

Don't think they were ever going to sack Rafa while club was up for Sale or do i expect them to give him a penny, more a net income than net expenditure ..... unless the new owners don't want Rafa they might then sack him , once they don't pay the severance pay out of their pockets.

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #148 on: May 8, 2010, 12:10:14 pm »
"....as well as £144.4m owed to the club’s American owners, Tom Hicks and George Gillett, via their Kop Football (Cayman) Limited company."

so does this mean the club OWE the Americans money? fuckin' hell how the hell does that work.

just what i was thinking? how the hell does that work?
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #149 on: May 8, 2010, 12:31:47 pm »
just what i was thinking? how the hell does that work?

For example:
The club owes 382m which is too high, the bank want it reduced so the Yanks borrow 145m from somewhere at 8% interest. They give this to the bank meaning that the club only now owe the bank 237m.
The Yanks then charge the club 10% interest on the 145m (14.5m) thus earning 2% profit on 145m (2.9m per year) off the club. So although the official debt to the bank is 237m, when the club is sold, the Yanks will add the 145m to the 237m debt and then want profit on top of that.
Our wonderful custodians eh?
« Last Edit: May 8, 2010, 12:35:34 pm by redprodigal »

Offline itsgunnabebarnes!

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #150 on: May 8, 2010, 12:35:08 pm »
For example:
The club owes 382m which is too high, the bank want it reduced so the Yanks borrow 145m from somewhere at 8% interest. They give this to the bank meaning that the club only now owe the bank 237m.
The Yanks then charge the club 10% interest on the 145m (14.5m) thus earning 2% interest profit on 145m (2.9m per year) off the club. So although the official debt to the bank is 237m when the club is sold the Yanks will add the 145m to the 237m debt and then want profit on top of that.
Our wonderful custodians eh?


thanks, Bloody disgusting that.
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #151 on: May 8, 2010, 12:39:33 pm »
For example:
The club owes 382m which is too high, the bank want it reduced so the Yanks borrow 145m from somewhere at 8% interest. They give this to the bank meaning that the club only now owe the bank 237m.
The Yanks then charge the club 10% interest on the 145m (14.5m) thus earning 2% profit on 145m (2.9m per year) off the club. So although the official debt to the bank is 237m, when the club is sold, the Yanks will add the 145m to the 237m debt and then want profit on top of that.
Our wonderful custodians eh?
That's fucking disgusting, Bastards.
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Offline Manila Vanilla

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #152 on: May 8, 2010, 12:44:11 pm »
My view is that there is nothing to gain, and much to lose, for the club by Rafa going. I think that it is wholly reasonale for Rafa to ask his agent to sound out impending managerial vacancies in case either he regards this summers transfer budget as unworkable ,or a new owner does not want him.

I think that the Club are right to be pissed off by Rafa's handling of the Juve situation. There is nowhere for them to go. He is under contract. they are trying to sell. There is no new money. Stay, or go, don't moan. How has it happened? Rafa is a fine football manager, but I have not been impressed by his handling of people situations. I believe this to be part sheer misjudgement on his part, and part hubris, "Juve love me even if you dont".

Rafa's "constructive dismissal" moment was last summer, IF he was lied to on transfers. A year down the line I suspect his position is considerably weaker.

Spot on! It's an arm wrestling contest now.
Both sides are expending massive amounts of energy on getting nowhere.
Meanwhile, the bystanders look on, smile and sup their pints.....

Offline Jack Slater

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #153 on: May 8, 2010, 12:44:16 pm »
Yes.
'is such that Martin Broughton, Liverpool’s recently appointed chairman, had to appear before the Premier League to offer assurances that the club will be able to fulfil their fixtures for next season.'

Significant? I would think so.

Yes, I'd say that is very significant if literally true.  I hope it is literally true, but I'm gonna sit on the fence about it.

If it really did happen then it will be a further reason for the banks to push for resolution.

And if it did really happen, then it's very interesting that it was Broughton who went.  I see him as the bank's man.  If he went to the PL, with authority from RBS to tell the PL what they needed to hear, then that would lend weight to the theory that he is close to RBS.

Otherwise, what explanation is there for Broughton going to the PL.  If a meeting was required, then it should have been Purslow or Nash who went on LFC's behalf.





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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #154 on: May 8, 2010, 12:47:01 pm »
Quote from: Tepid water on Yesterday at 09:56:11 PM
£472.5 million? ???

How did he get that number???       


 It's in the accounts. It's the gross figure that the club would have to pay if it had to pay everyone they owe, every single penny of what they owe tomorrow. This kind of scenario will probably be known as the Portsmouth situation in years to come. Remember all those figures about Portsmouth owing the taxman, florist, milkman etc? This is the Liverpool version.

Cheers Tony, can anybody in the know answer a couple of things? This total group debt of 472m. Is that the debt that is always declared when they talk about the debts of all clubs ? For example, when they say the Mancs debt is around 750m or whatever,  does that include all the things you mention above.
Also, in the first post it states that the net debt at group level is 351m, and at club level is 110.3m. This makes a total net debt of461.3m.  These figures don't seem to add up.

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #155 on: May 8, 2010, 12:47:57 pm »
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/liverpools-record-16355m-loss-forces-broughton-to-put-benitez-on-tight-leash-1968408.html

Last paragraph is intresting

"The £54.9m loss was driven by £40m in interest payments to service debts. Broughton revealed he is recontacting groups who have previously expressed interest in buying the club, the same strategy Purslow embarked upon. He said there is neither a time limit on the sale nor a price put on the value of the club, but he expects to be out of Anfield within "a matter of months" once his role – securing a buyer – is concluded"

Obviously things are not going so well if Broughton is having to go looking for buyers rather then buyers knocking on his door as has been suggested before.
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #156 on: May 8, 2010, 12:51:49 pm »
To be fair, he also said he is pursuing 'others' as well.
When he talks about 'a matter of months', it's a specific but non-specific kind of a phrase. He's not saying a year, or about a year. If he hasn't sold within six months I imagine the press will start asking uncomfortable questions.

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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #157 on: May 8, 2010, 12:56:33 pm »
Rafa's "constructive dismissal" moment was last summer, IF he was lied to on transfers. A year down the line I suspect his position is considerably weaker.

Yes.  If Rafa was told something a year ago, then he can't now go for constructive dismissal based on that.  However, I think we can safely assume that all parties are fully aware of that.

But do we really think that, last summer, Rafa was told that he was never going to have any money to spend for the entire duration of his contract?

Isnt it more likely that he was told that money was tight in summer 2009, but that £100m investment was on the way, and so summer 2010 would be bountiful?

My point about needing to meet him is that if Rafa is seeking to manoeuvre an exit (not necessarily saying he is, just saying "if") then it was important that the club made sure that he wasnt able to use lack of a meeting as an argument that the club was stopping him doing his job by failing to tell him his budget.

Bottom line - for me - is that I dont want these leaks full stop.  I dont care who is falling out with who, or whose supposed to call who, or any of that.  I just want LFC to operate as a smooth machine and for all the wrangling that goes on in most companies, especially football clubs, to be done behind closed doors.






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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #158 on: May 8, 2010, 12:57:51 pm »
Does the fact that we made a loss of £50 million mean that our debts (whether they be to G&H or RBS) will have increased by £50 million?
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Re: Financial Results
« Reply #159 on: May 8, 2010, 01:08:33 pm »
For example:
The club owes 382m which is too high, the bank want it reduced so the Yanks borrow 145m from somewhere at 8% interest. They give this to the bank meaning that the club only now owe the bank 237m.
The Yanks then charge the club 10% interest on the 145m (14.5m) thus earning 2% profit on 145m (2.9m per year) off the club. So although the official debt to the bank is 237m, when the club is sold, the Yanks will add the 145m to the 237m debt and then want profit on top of that.
Our wonderful custodians eh?

Good explantion.  Can we all bear 2 things in mind as well.

1. The club was not £382m (or whatever) in debt because of money the club had spent.  It wasnt even that amount in debt because of the purchase price.  At the time of the purchase, the debt was about £45m.  The purchase price of the shares was about £175m.  So an outlay of £220m by G&H.  So where does the £368m come from.  Why an extra £162m 'unaccounted' for?  I remember being told many times that the club was not rolling up interest.  So it cant be that now can it.

So when this £145m was introduced (from wherever), I refuse to acknowledge that it is "new" money (regardless of source).  Even £237m means that the bank debt is £17m more than the £220m required to pay for the shares and take over the old debt. 

The £145m is simply reintroducing money which had been borrowed against the club in the first place, and which had not been spent to benefit the club.


2.  No matter how much G&H say that debt to them has to be cleared as well as bank debt, there is no reason that that has to happen.  The only debt which has to be taken care of is the bank debt.  Even that doesnt necessarily have to be cleared fully.  If the best bid is £200m, then the banks could  (after following the proper process) accept that.  They have personal guarantees from G&H which can take care of the rest.  [In practice, I think a bid of £250m to £300m will be made.]