Author Topic: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'  (Read 30700 times)

Offline the_red_pill

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #360 on: December 14, 2019, 08:08:14 pm »
I think for VAR a simple change to the offside decision would be to ask if the part of the body that scores is offside when the ball is played.

Currently it is any part that you can score with and generally that's okay, even if it is a shoulder. But when it comes down to millimeters, just look at the body part that they score or control the ball with. Much fairer imo.
Foot, head.
That should be all. Not even an arm, since that doesn't gain you an advantage and you can't score with it. Hips, arms, arses... those shouldn't count.
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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #361 on: December 14, 2019, 08:11:09 pm »
I don’t get the ‘lucky’ narrative from this game at all. We were commanding for the most part against a team that dug in for a draw. We got a bit nervy after the disallowed goal but really, we had far more chances to win it that Watford and we’re the better team.

Make sure you watch MOTD tonight, I can't wait to watch all of those Watford misses being replayed multiple times and listening to those bitter barstewards. I'm going to love it!
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #362 on: December 14, 2019, 08:13:31 pm »
It was good to see Neco Williams on the bench again (I appreciate it's largely because our cover RB is starting at CB due to us missing two CBs to injury, and our other senior RB is also injured).  I like to see us having a Welsh player in the team and it's been a long time now since Joe Allen moved on.

Toshack
Rush
Saunders
Bellamy
Allen
Williams / Wilson

Offline Nick110581

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #363 on: December 14, 2019, 08:18:58 pm »
Massive result as had to grind it out.

Leicester drawing was a surprise but a bonus.
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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #364 on: December 14, 2019, 08:19:06 pm »
It was good to see Neco Williams on the bench again (I appreciate it's largely because our cover RB is starting at CB due to us missing two CBs to injury, and our other senior RB is also injured).  I like to see us having a Welsh player in the team and it's been a long time now since Joe Allen moved on.

Toshack
Rush
Saunders
Bellamy
Allen
Williams / Wilson

WHAT??

How could you forget Joey Jones? Great player!

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Offline Eeyore

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #365 on: December 14, 2019, 08:38:22 pm »
Thought Mane was offside at first but having watched the replays it looks like we have been fucked over again. The first VAR line shows Mane onside and then they move it on a few frames and remarkably Mane is now offside.
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Offline Eeyore

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #366 on: December 14, 2019, 08:39:58 pm »
It was good to see Neco Williams on the bench again (I appreciate it's largely because our cover RB is starting at CB due to us missing two CBs to injury, and our other senior RB is also injured).  I like to see us having a Welsh player in the team and it's been a long time now since Joe Allen moved on.

Toshack
Rush
Saunders
Bellamy
Allen
Williams / Wilson

Ben Woodburn ?
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Offline Medellin

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #367 on: December 14, 2019, 08:41:02 pm »
Alisson..Brazilliant again!

Thought Gomez done well today too,.

Mo..makes incredibly difficult stuff look simple!

Lastly..loved Origi's feint shot assist to Mo!  ;D

3pts.

Clean sheet.

Routine.  :P

Beer.
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #368 on: December 14, 2019, 08:44:01 pm »
WHAT??

How could you forget Joey Jones? Great player!
Haha.  Great call that.

He just doesn't have the same legacy as Dean Saunders ::) (and I completely forgot him as we had Toshack at the same time!)

Offline thaddeus

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #369 on: December 14, 2019, 08:48:50 pm »
Ben Woodburn ?
Progression/development isn't linear and all that but he sadly looks miles away and is competing in our most stacked area of talent.  Clyne is out then off in the summer and Gomez is better as a CB but I still don't see us going and signing another RB.  As such Neco actually looks to have a decent chance of becoming a first team squad player!

Offline redgriffin73

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #370 on: December 14, 2019, 08:51:35 pm »
Ah. Just seen the var official was Jon moss. No more discussion needed, the oxygen thieving prick is useless.
My match programme says it was Kevin Friend? Also an oxygen thieving prick mind you! ;D
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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #371 on: December 14, 2019, 09:14:22 pm »
My match programme says it was Kevin Friend? Also an oxygen thieving prick mind you! ;D

Football is teaming with them, we've probably got Danny Murphy on MOTD later too, its a wonder the rest of us have enough to breathe with!
 ;D
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Offline RedForeverTT

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #372 on: December 14, 2019, 09:24:55 pm »
Bloody VAR is doing my head in.

Maybe that old old tagline "things balance themselves out over the course of the season" would be wheeled out at MOTD.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #373 on: December 14, 2019, 09:38:53 pm »
Bloody VAR is doing my head in.

Maybe that old old tagline "things balance themselves out over the course of the season" would be wheeled out at MOTD.

Hope so if that means we’ll now get two dubious offside calls go our way in the remaining games. :D

Offline jckliew

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #374 on: December 14, 2019, 09:41:39 pm »
Mighty MO's back!

Div legend!
« Last Edit: December 14, 2019, 09:43:23 pm by jckliew »
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Offline G Richards

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #375 on: December 14, 2019, 10:06:15 pm »
It won’t fully satisfy the snide moaners at Man City, but being on the sharp end of a VAR decision, regrouping, and going on to win the match anyway, is how you do it. Man City lose their heads, even when they’ve got most of the match to regroup and respond to the perceived injustice.

Which is a long way of saying we are mentality giants!

Offline slaphead

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #376 on: December 14, 2019, 10:08:08 pm »
Klopp was right when he said that was the most important game of the season today. We dropped points and it gives Leicester and City a lift with us away now. It's so pleasing to see the clean sheets back again too, I always think when you have so many games in a short period of time you have to be solid because you'll inevitably have off days attacking wise. Luckily we had Alisson, and Mo, today  ;) 
And how irritating is Nigel Pearson ?  Never noticed that before. Comes across as very condescending to me

Offline JC the Messiah

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #377 on: December 14, 2019, 10:09:30 pm »
Klopp was right when he said that was the most important game of the season today. We dropped points and it gives Leicester and City a lift with us away now. It's so pleasing to see the clean sheets back again too, I always think when you have so many games in a short period of time you have to be solid because you'll inevitably have off days attacking wise. Luckily we had Alisson, and Mo, today  ;) 
And how irritating is Nigel Pearson ?  Never noticed that before. Comes across as very condescending to me

He's a patronising *&$£.  Might just be his public persona, but comes across as a very unpleasant arsehole.
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Offline Ravishing Rick Dude

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #378 on: December 14, 2019, 10:11:19 pm »
I don’t get the ‘lucky’ narrative from this game at all. We were commanding for the most part against a team that dug in for a draw. We got a bit nervy after the disallowed goal but really, we had far more chances to win it that Watford and we’re the better team.

It's bollocks. Whoever thinks that, should check statistics of the game https://www.flashscore.com/match/W0KvTtjG/#match-statistics;0
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Offline stockdam

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #379 on: December 14, 2019, 10:13:36 pm »
Thought Mane was offside at first but having watched the replays it looks like we have been fucked over again. The first VAR line shows Mane onside and then they move it on a few frames and remarkably Mane is now offside.

He looked offside from the angle that showed Shaq crossing but maybe the ball hadn’t left Shaq’s foot.
The VAR picture looked far too close to call.
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Offline newterp

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #380 on: December 14, 2019, 10:19:12 pm »
He looked offside from the angle that showed Shaq crossing but maybe the ball hadn’t left Shaq’s foot.
The VAR picture looked far too close to call.

he was onside - and the fact that they had to redraw the lines to make sure he was off tells me that VAR is a failure in those close call situations. There was no advantage gained.

Offline slaphead

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #381 on: December 14, 2019, 10:21:44 pm »
He's a patronising *&$£.  Might just be his public persona, but comes across as a very unpleasant arsehole.

He does yeah, he spoke to the interviewer like he was a child. Even the BT fella said something along the lines of " I don't know what that was all about" after his interview. Luckily wth it being Watford, he wont be around for long

Offline Eeyore

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #382 on: December 14, 2019, 10:28:22 pm »
he was onside - and the fact that they had to redraw the lines to make sure he was off tells me that VAR is a failure in those close call situations. There was no advantage gained.

That was the replay I saw with Mane being onside and then the line being re drawn to show him as offside.
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Offline Yosser0_0

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #383 on: December 14, 2019, 10:31:00 pm »
He's a patronising *&$£.  Might just be his public persona, but comes across as a very unpleasant arsehole.

The Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson of the Premier League, taken the mantle from Colin Wanker there.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #384 on: December 14, 2019, 10:40:05 pm »
I think for VAR a simple change to the offside decision would be to ask if the part of the body that scores is offside when the ball is played.

Currently it is any part that you can score with and generally that's okay, even if it is a shoulder. But when it comes down to millimeters, just look at the body part that they score or control the ball with. Much fairer imo.

That's actually a really good idea
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Offline lfc79

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #385 on: December 14, 2019, 11:25:37 pm »
Also re the second goal and the bar check, it’s looks clear the other Watford player has one leg in the pitch surely for the purpose of offside you should be consider in the goal line unless you have asked the refs permission to leave the play.
Or if the goalkeeper “accidentally” steps behind the line does that mean 2 defenders have to play you onside?

Offline LovelyCushionedHeader

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #386 on: December 14, 2019, 11:37:52 pm »
Also re the second goal and the bar check, it’s looks clear the other Watford player has one leg in the pitch surely for the purpose of offside you should be consider in the goal line unless you have asked the refs permission to leave the play.
Or if the goalkeeper “accidentally” steps behind the line does that mean 2 defenders have to play you onside?

The Watford player by the byline is considered part of the play. The issue is that the keeper is more advanced than him and at least one other defender, so two defenders needed to be between Mo and the goal line (as is always the case - it's just that the goalkeeper is normally one of them). He by the byline is one, the defender they drew the VAR line against was the other.

It's amazed me today how many people don't understand the offside rule.

Also, when Deulofeu hit the post from his corner, the commentators on BT and MOTD both said there was an offside which is why the play was stopped soon after. There wasn't an offside, it was just that Deulofeu was the next player to touch the ball, so in essence passed the corner to himself. Obviously not allowed.
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Offline Judge Red

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #387 on: December 14, 2019, 11:51:36 pm »
Mo got savaged today. Ridiculous how there wasn’t a yellow shown more often for Watford. Good to see him at his brilliant best.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #388 on: December 15, 2019, 12:00:28 am »
The Watford player by the byline is considered part of the play. The issue is that the keeper is more advanced than him and at least one other defender, so two defenders needed to be between Mo and the goal line (as is always the case - it's just that the goalkeeper is normally one of them). He by the byline is one, the defender they drew the VAR line against was the other.

It's amazed me today how many people don't understand the offside rule.

Also, when Deulofeu hit the post from his corner, the commentators on BT and MOTD both said there was an offside which is why the play was stopped soon after. There wasn't an offside, it was just that Deulofeu was the next player to touch the ball, so in essence passed the corner to himself. Obviously not allowed.

My favourite is still the corner routine we did when our player pretended to leave the ball for a team mate but touched it which meant the second player dribbled away with the ball.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #389 on: December 15, 2019, 12:38:29 am »
Foot, head.
That should be all. Not even an arm, since that doesn't gain you an advantage and you can't score with it. Hips, arms, arses... those shouldn't count.

Should just be feet. Simple as that.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #390 on: December 15, 2019, 12:58:04 am »
Glad to get thru that one. Now that Mo is scoring fantastic goals with his right as well, he could be unstoppable :D

Real shame about Gini, thought he made an error not tracking a runner in the 1st half, maybe he was already carrying a knock then.

The Mane offside was just stupid. The benefit of the doubt should always be given to the attacking team in these situations. I just don't see how they can accurately measure offsides with such an imperfect 2D image taken from an angle. Surely they need to be using 3D images and/or some sort of Hawkeye system.

They basically gave Mo's goal cos the defenders arse was sticking out that bit more!

When it is this close, just give the goal. Don't fuck up the game if you don't actually even have 90% accuracy.

10pts clear, all looking good, hope we can rotate the squad well for these 3 games now.
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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #391 on: December 15, 2019, 01:15:26 am »
I think for VAR a simple change to the offside decision would be to ask if the part of the body that scores is offside when the ball is played.

Currently it is any part that you can score with and generally that's okay, even if it is a shoulder. But when it comes down to millimeters, just look at the body part that they score or control the ball with. Much fairer imo.

In the past the benefit of the doubt was meant to go to the attacker. Not sure it ever did though.

If they want it to go down to the nitty gritty it should be any part of the body you can score with. Even then though, Firmino's armpit would have caused discussion,

Just scrap it.

Offline terry_macss_perm

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #392 on: December 15, 2019, 01:35:31 am »
Also re the second goal and the bar check, it’s looks clear the other Watford player has one leg in the pitch surely for the purpose of offside you should be consider in the goal line unless you have asked the refs permission to leave the play.
Or if the goalkeeper “accidentally” steps behind the line does that mean 2 defenders have to play you onside?

You can play a player onside from behind the goal line, I think.

Offline Eeyore

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #393 on: December 15, 2019, 01:45:49 am »
In the past the benefit of the doubt was meant to go to the attacker. Not sure it ever did though.

If they want it to go down to the nitty gritty it should be any part of the body you can score with. Even then though, Firmino's armpit would have caused discussion,

Just scrap it.

I don't have a problem with offside being black or white. The problem I have is with the Firmino armpit goal and today's Mane goal being given as onside initially and then a second line being drawn which shows them offside. If you are doing absolute decisions then let them be done by computer. No bias no controversy no debate.
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Offline Silverbird

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #394 on: December 15, 2019, 04:46:32 am »
Bloody VAR is doing my head in.

Maybe that old old tagline "things balance themselves out over the course of the season" would be wheeled out at MOTD.

I would argue that it already has. I recall the offside call against Mount which resulted in Chelsea’s equaliser being chalked off. It was pretty close on the replay - maybe his butt was offside as he was walking back onside. Plus, it was also very early in the move. Chelsea had the momentum at that point and I think that goal being disallowed on that margin was more critical than Mane’s goal being disallowed yesterday.

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #395 on: December 15, 2019, 04:58:21 am »
Seemed like the pitch was dry
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Offline decosabute

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #396 on: December 15, 2019, 07:27:46 am »
I don’t get the ‘lucky’ narrative from this game at all. We were commanding for the most part against a team that dug in for a draw. We got a bit nervy after the disallowed goal but really, we had far more chances to win it that Watford and we’re the better team.

It's bollocks. We weren't great at all, but the huge focus on Watford's couple of big chances is agenda-driven shite.

Even normally very fair writers like Andy Hunter in the Guardian spent half of his match report talking about how many chances Watford missed (in reality they probably had two, maybe three, they could or should have scored from), and then glossed over the sitters we missed in the second half and a goal that was extremely harshly disallowed in a couple of lines.

It's completely disproportionate and everyone wants to keep acting like we're getting away with it for some reason. We were shite, Watford raised their game about ten levels from what it's generally been this season and yet we still deserved to win.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 07:48:43 am by decosabute »

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #397 on: December 15, 2019, 08:00:52 am »
I would argue that it already has. I recall the offside call against Mount which resulted in Chelsea’s equaliser being chalked off. It was pretty close on the replay - maybe his butt was offside as he was walking back onside. Plus, it was also very early in the move. Chelsea had the momentum at that point and I think that goal being disallowed on that margin was more critical than Mane’s goal being disallowed yesterday.

You've used one example of something going for us to count as "balancing out". But in addition to yesterday's bullshit VAR intervention on Mane's goal, we've had:

- Firmino perfectly good goal disallowed for nonsense offside vs Aston Villa
- Matip absolutely clear penalty not given vs Newcastle
- Mane clear penalty not given vs Sheff Utd
- Man United goal given despite clear foul on Origi
- Napoli dive given as penalty in the away game
- Napoli goal given despite clear foul on Virgil

And that's just off the top of my head. Would you like to give examples of it going for us to balance these out?

Offline Silverbird

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #398 on: December 15, 2019, 08:13:22 am »
You've used one example of something going for us to count as "balancing out". But in addition to yesterday's bullshit VAR intervention on Mane's goal, we've had:

- Firmino perfectly good goal disallowed for nonsense offside vs Aston Villa
- Matip absolutely clear penalty not given vs Newcastle
- Mane clear penalty not given vs Sheff Utd
- Man United goal given despite clear foul on Origi
- Napoli dive given as penalty in the away game
- Napoli goal given despite clear foul on Virgil

And that's just off the top of my head. Would you like to give examples of it going for us to balance these out?

Yes, it’s one example, but the critical point is that the Mount incident happened when (at least in my opinion) we needed it. We arguably went on to pick up three points because Chelsea didn’t equalise. The Man Utd call did cost us two points perhaps but that’s what I meant when I said balanced out. The Napoli calls cost us in those two games but not in the overall scheme as we still qualified top of the group.

Now I don’t actually believe that things will necessarily even themselves out over the course of a season; I am just suggesting in the context of this season, the bad calls have not cost us anything more than what the “good” call compensated us for. In other words, it’s not the number of calls each way per se; it’s when they happened and the cost of the calls, if any. So if there were twenty bad calls against us in one match but we still won then it didn’t cost us anything, whereas a single call in our favour in a critical match would easily outweigh those twenty bad calls.

Anyway it will all be hopefully irrelevant come end of season. Let Man Utd fans crow about being the only team to take points off us while they miss out on Europe completely and we lift the EPL and No. 7.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2019, 08:17:42 am by Silverbird »

Offline 12C

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Re: PL: Liverpool 2 v Watford Mo 38' 90'
« Reply #399 on: December 15, 2019, 08:50:41 am »
He's a patronising *&$£.  Might just be his public persona, but comes across as a very unpleasant arsehole.

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