Topic: SPOILERS The Chainless Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon Discussion

[Fazak_Red]

The use of Cersei in this season has been absolutely shite.

[vagabond]

The interesting thing will be when the books come out and how different will the ending be.

No our luck GRRM will die and they will ask Benioff and Weiss to finish the last half of the last book from his notes or something.

The books are never going to happen.

[Lastrador]

This is a character who has fought against her father's tarnished legacy of being minutes away from brutally wiping out the city and people he was supposed to protect and serve.

A character who has consistently aimed to save the common people from oppressors like Cersei Lannister even if it meant decelerating her ascent to the throne.

A character who has usually given her enemies or non-followers a chance to, as you put it, bend the knee and serve her.

To throw all of that away and needlessly do exactly what her father came close to doing all those years ago just because she is hurting from loss and betrayal isn't logical in my eyes.

Or die. So basically be a slave or a pile of ashes, like the Tarly's.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wXGBZ1s5k9Q" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wXGBZ1s5k9Q</a>

One thing I don't think has been given much importance is the fact that even the source of her entitlement is wrong, the throne never belonged to her, and she knows that.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Or die. So basically be a slave or a pile of ashes, like the Tarly's.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wXGBZ1s5k9Q" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wXGBZ1s5k9Q</a>

One thing I don't think has been given much importance is the fact that even her source of her entitlement is wrong, the throne never belonged to her, and she knows that.

The Tarly's had a choice. The thousands inside the keep did not.

[S]

I think the fighting scenes impacted on the emotional scenes inside the episode. In the earlier years Game of Thrones would usually get it right back then. One of my favourites was the ending of Aemon Targaryen at the Night's Watch. That ramble he goes on before he passes away talking about Egg was beautifully portrayed by Peter Vaughan. When they get a scene like that right, it beats any battle scene for me. But obviously battle scenes are the most important for others I suppose.

No you’re right, those scenes are brilliant.

I love the battles but my favourite scene in the whole thing will always be The Hound returning to the house of the father and daughter he robbed. Then burying them both later that night.

[Macphisto80]

The use of Cersei in this season has been absolutely shite.

Completely snipped her nuts off. Metaphorically, of course. Not the character we've seen in the past, and also, like the rest, been lobotomized.

[WhereAngelsPlay]

Or die. So basically be a slave or a pile of ashes, like the Tarly's.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/wXGBZ1s5k9Q" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/wXGBZ1s5k9Q</a>

One thing I don't think has been given much importance is the fact that even her source of her entitlement is wrong, the throne never belonged to her, and she knows that.

Not really,she only has the word of Jon,his best mate and his brother.

[JackWard33]

The Tarly's had a choice. The thousands inside the keep did not.

Yup the choice is follow me or die - it’s the only choice she’s ever offered. That mentality that believes they should be in absolute charge and uses violence to get it ends up making the choice for people.
She gave them the choice at the gates by the way (once pursuaded to by her advisors), they killed her best friend in response so they pay.
There’s no turn or illogical change - she wants to rule, it’s all she’s wanted. She’s killed relentlessly to do it. Sacking an enemy city isn’t even an extreme of uncommon event in that world - it’s what she’s wanted to do since she landed in Westeros (again made clear throughout - only dissuaded by her advisors).

Again - it’s the point of the story like it or not. You can argue with the telling or the pacing but it’s the only logical end to her story.
This aspect of the show has been really well done (others less well) - the audience has been rooting for a tyrant so now they’d pissed because she crossed their arbitrary line  ... but that’s on them not the show

[Something Worse]

The use of Cersei in this season has been absolutely shite.

I was thinking that the other day but I've been reading this thread mostly for the hilarity and didn't want to disrupt it.

She's (IMO) the best character and the best remaining actress and she's barely had any time. I watched the scene with Ned last night and I can't believe they didn't get her on screen, doing her thing one last time.

If this is supposed to be the big jerkoff final season, you think they'd give everyone a money shot before the end. And all she really had was the elephants line, which was awesome, but...that's it?

[trimore]

This was a big departure - she burns a whole city down. But because they teleport us from one version of Dany to this new one in the space of a few scenes, it’s unbelievable and people just got annoyed by that.

That’s why my conclusion is they just didn’t spend enough time developing those journies - the one of Dany turning into the Mad Queen a massive one.

They’ll do the same next episode I’m sure. It’ll be like a machine gun of new stuff, characters doing things seemingly out of character until we end on a payoff with some great music and cinematography but all feeling a bit hollow. Purely because they got too lazy to finish it properly.

Getting the plot and character development timing correct is everything, it determines if 95% of all stories are either good or not.

Dany, despite some notable ruthless moments has acted like a typical TV heroine for the majority of time on screen. It's why she had a lot of fans in the first place. The creators had an idea to take the typical TV heroine and turn her into the villain. It's a decent idea, but it's something most people on this board could probably come up with while still being complicated enough to demand time and talent. The execution thus becomes everything. When they have the time, the correct perfomance, and the more humble idea to execute then you get the red wedding, which was rightfully lauded. Just having the idea alone, which isn't that great to begin with, isn't enough, should receive no praise and deserves all the criticism it's receiving.

[TepidT2O]

Erm... But there's been very little evil about her until this episode? Which is precisely why people are having such a hard time buying into her committing by far the most evil act in the GoT universe's history.

Oh I just don’t see that..

She wanted to raise her dragons so she could crush armies?
She believed she had a right to the throne above all others?

Her turning out to be the baddie was something I had always thought possible since episode 1.  Maybe I’m more skeptical of people who proclaim to have good intentions and to be more merciful than all others ? 

[No666]

The writing has been shit. And after promising the world 'strong women' - that old cliche; I'm not sure I know any 'weak' women - we have two queens who turn hysterical when faced with power. We have the non-Caucasians sacrificing themselves for the racist bastards of the North. Bar some left-field character arc for Greyworm, we'll end with a white male saviour on the (melted) iron throne. From a political standpoint, it sucks. It's Trumpian in its complacency.

[trimore]

Again - it’s the point of the story like it or not. You can argue with the telling or the pacing but it’s the only logical end to her story.
This aspect of the show has been really well done (others less well) - the audience has been rooting for a tyrant so now they’d pissed because she crossed their arbitrary line ... but that’s on them not the show

I don't think we will agree on this, but I can only go by what I have seen and read about in real life and what I have seen in other comparable works of fiction. Dany didn't act like a tyrant, she acted more like an entertaining TV character through most of this. Now she didn't have to be twirling her mustache through the previous 7 seasons, but they could have done so much more. Oh well. 

[voodoo ray]

Thanks for your contribution 


What's worse,having a moan about episodes of a show that you watch on a forum or just going into a thread about a show that you watch to moan about people having a moan ?

I was on about the petition mate, but if you reckon it applies to you too then don't let me stop you.

[jooneyisdagod]

The writing has been shit. And after promising the world 'strong women' - that old cliche; I'm not sure I know any 'weak' women - we have two queens who turn hysterical when faced with power. We have the non-Caucasians sacrificing themselves for the racist bastards of the North. Bar some left-field character arc for Greyworm, we'll end with a white male saviour on the (melted) iron throne. From a political standpoint, it sucks. It's Trumpian in its complacency.

I'm not on board with the political criticisms of the show at all though it's clear that D&D are just trust fund baby fratboys given their vacuaous treatment of gender and race. Despite this, I'm not sold by political criticisms of the show given the period it is based on. I would much rather see a more authentic portrayal of the period than the contrived insertion of modern sensibilitites into the show. The show's writing sucks donkey balls because for a long time they did try to do just that with contrived "strong" female characters who spoke like today's feminists. Unfortunately, this itself was in reaction to the reaction to the Sansa rape scene for which they received plenty of criticism. So, while I agree that the political sensibilities of the showrunners are shoddy as anything, I would not extend the criticisms to the show, which includes ideas from the source material, which I found to be a much more profound exploration of cultural differences as well as gender issues.

[No666]

There is no authenticity drawn from feudal society in the depiction of black armies sacrificing themselves for white people; rather that's colonial. For that matter, the trope of hysterical women is not drawn from feudal society either. I suspect that's a Victorian invention but someone more versed in Feminist theory/women's history would be needed to confirm that. I had no problems with Sansa's rape: it wasn't actually shown. I'm sure it happened then and happens today.

[jillcwhomever]

Yup the choice is follow me or die - it’s the only choice she’s ever offered. That mentality that believes they should be in absolute charge and uses violence to get it ends up making the choice for people.
She gave them the choice at the gates by the way (once pursuaded to by her advisors), they killed her best friend in response so they pay.
There’s no turn or illogical change - she wants to rule, it’s all she’s wanted. She’s killed relentlessly to do it. Sacking an enemy city isn’t even an extreme of uncommon event in that world - it’s what she’s wanted to do since she landed in Westeros (again made clear throughout - only dissuaded by her advisors).

Again - it’s the point of the story like it or not. You can argue with the telling or the pacing but it’s the only logical end to her story.
This aspect of the show has been really well done (others less well) - the audience has been rooting for a tyrant so now they’d pissed because she crossed their arbitrary line  ... but that’s on them not the show

Not at the beginning she didn't. She just wanted to go home, it was Viserys who would have become King. She was always in his shadow at the beginning. Its only once he is out of the way that she starts to see the possibility of it, especially after Drogo's death. Is she ruthless with her enemies? Of course she is, she's a conqueror it's the nature of the beast. With those who treat the minnows she represents she is prepared to be ruthless. A lot of them underestimate her, especially with her being a woman but if she has to do something she will. But she has also listened to her trusted advisors as well, she is a complex character, that has always been what has made her interesting in the first place. The Dany of the opening episodes is entirely different to the Dany she becomes later.

In this show they all treat their enemies with disdain, its the nature of the world they inhibit. Arya massacred an entire house and baked people into a flamin pie, Jon Snow hung a kid at Castle Black for his part in a betrayal. Dany had the perfect opportunity to attack King's Landing with two dragons in series seven, but ultimately chose to go up north and fight the WW. It is finding out about Jon that starts to put the cat among the pigeons and probably starts to play with her mind as well.

While I would agree that power in this story corrupts for a number of characters is the assertion that Dany has always been this way that I have the problem with. It is only once she has brought the dragons to life, that she ultimately goes on the trail to becoming a conqueror and truly embracing her Targaryen background.

[voodoo ray]

Sunday’s episode of Game of Thrones was polarizing among fans, but it still set records for ratings and viewership. “The Bells” brought in 12.5 million viewers for its first airing on Sunday night, topping the record of 12.2 million for “The Long Night.” That shook out to a 5.41 demo rating.

As Deadline notes, the episode climbed to 18.4 million with digital data added in from HBO GO and HBO Now, setting a new record for a single broadcast episode for HBO.





The above does mean bugger all considering the absolute shite that consistently gets ratings, but maybe this series hasn't been generally hated as much as the internet would have you believe.

[jillcwhomever]

Sunday’s episode of Game of Thrones was polarizing among fans, but it still set records for ratings and viewership. “The Bells” brought in 12.5 million viewers for its first airing on Sunday night, topping the record of 12.2 million for “The Long Night.” That shook out to a 5.41 demo rating.

As Deadline notes, the episode climbed to 18.4 million with digital data added in from HBO GO and HBO Now, setting a new record for a single broadcast episode for HBO.





The above does mean bugger all considering the absolute shite that consistently gets ratings, but maybe this series hasn't been generally hated as much as the internet would have you believe.

I'm not sure you can take much from that. I'm a member of a writing website who are heavily invested in Game of Thrones and the feeling there is very mixed, some like it others think it's a mess and has been too rushed. With most people who have followed the show since the beginning it's entirely probable they will see it to the end with only one episode to go regardless how they feel about how its been done.

[voodoo ray]

tv ratings are never a barometer of quality, but I just found it fairly amusing how this series has been slated by people on the internet yet the amount of people actually watching it seems to have gone up.

[jooneyisdagod]

There is no authenticity drawn from feudal society in the depiction of black armies sacrificing themselves for white people; rather that's colonial. For that matter, the trope of hysterical women is not drawn from feudal society either. I suspect that's a Victorian invention but someone more versed in Feminist theory/women's history would be needed to confirm that. I had no problems with Sansa's rape: it wasn't actually shown. I'm sure it happened then and happens today.

No, but it makes sense within the context of the story. There weren't many white people who destroyed major slaver cities in the past either. Moreover, at least in the books, the slavers are race agnostic. Hysterical women is a trope for sure but who is hysterical in the show? I read Dany burning down Kings Landing not as the actions of a hysterical woman but that of a cold, narcissistic, megalomaniac who had decided that she was going to deliver fire and blood to people she hated while the common folk were just collateral damage. Cersei has always been cold and calculating as well. The only characters I think of as hysterical are Catelyn Stark and Lysa Arryn.

[royhendo]

It's been a bit like following a kid through the youth system to the reserves, where he's rattling them in at record levels, making magic happen, leading his peers at levels above his age group, and making the old heads believe he's the next Dalglish or Cruyff, only to see the development hit the skids, with him ending up at Scunthorpe for the rest of his career.

If you enjoyed the kid's development enough you analyse it to the nth degree, and it makes no real sense, but you reach for ways to rationalise it all. But then you discover that two of the youth coaches couldn't get their heads around his maverick philosophies on the game and marginalised him in favour of players that fitted their Hodgson/Reep-style model of football. And you feel a little angry about that for a while. The game was robbed of something. You're not quite sure what, but something. But you still try and find streams of him playing from time to time to see if there are any flashes of the old magic, despite him having looked dead behind the eyes for several years, a beer gunt having started to overhang the band of his shorts.

[royhendo]

tv ratings are never a barometer of quality, but I just found it fairly amusing how this series has been slated by people on the internet yet the amount of people actually watching it seems to have gone up.

It's not that complicated is it? A hard core niche following that grew up around the books and the genre, geek-centric, spreads out to the periphery of that catchment, then over a few years it systematically alienates that viewer base while capitalising on the now viral structure that's in place - a show that literally had become able to promote itself without any effort (count the number of youtube channels and blogs on the subject alone). It's gone Mills and Boon. Mills and Boon and its genre is the most popular literary vehicle in the world. It is amusing though - not sure we all find it amusing in the same way, but it certainly is laughable.

[voodoo ray]

I'm not analysing it I merely found it amusing.

[Henry Gale]

I looked at a picture from the next episode. Not really a spoiler but I'll use the tags just in case 

Spoiler

The damage she has done is tragic. Kings Landing looks like a 3rd world country. There's literally nothing left! If there was 1 million people living there previously I'm guessing at least half of those have been killed.

[close]

[royhendo]

I'm not analysing it I merely found it amusing.

Which neatly encapsulates the two sides of the entire discussion for me.

I’m analysing it and I don’t merely find it amusing.

[No666]

It's been a bit like following a kid through the youth system to the reserves, where he's rattling them in at record levels, making magic happen, leading his peers at levels above his age group, and making the old heads believe he's the next Dalglish or Cruyff, only to see the development hit the skids, with him ending up at Scunthorpe for the rest of his career.

If you enjoyed the kid's development enough you analyse it to the nth degree, and it makes no real sense, but you reach for ways to rationalise it all. But then you discover that two of the youth coaches couldn't get their heads around his maverick philosophies on the game and marginalised him in favour of players that fitted their Hodgson/Reep-style model of football. And you feel a little angry about that for a while. The game was robbed of something. You're not quite sure what, but something. But you still try and find streams of him playing from time to time to see if there are any flashes of the old magic, despite him having looked dead behind the eyes for several years, a beer gunt having started to overhang the band of his shorts.

Yeah - the writers deliver a Hodgson-esque display pretty much nails it.

[royhendo]

PS both are of course valid.

[rob1966]

I'm not a fanboy, I'm not arsed about character arcs, I just want to watch entertaining TV, afterall, the writers own the characters and it is up to them to decide what happens. The issue I have had is that it has all become rushed and there has been some shit scenes.

I don't give a shit if it was a parley, Cersei would not pass up that opportunity to at least kill the last dragon, any commander would be aware that once the scorpions were known about, a way of exploiting their very obvious weaknesses would be found.
People can make as many excuses for how Euron hit the dragon, I was a great bit of TV for the surprise element as a viewer, but fuck off, its a scorpion, not a SAM or a Phoenix (fire and forget missile), it is basic shit, if you cannot see your target, then you cannot hit it and how the hell did Euron know what height and direction the dragon was flying from? Somehow he magically get the fleet in the exact channel he did and knew that they would fly past presenting an easy target and then gets a direct hit first shot.
Then the fight with Jaime, he manages to end up on the exact beach as Jaime at the same time?

[voodoo ray]

I think anything involving euron is fair game for abuse because both the character and everything he was involved in was shite.

[Red Viper]

I think anything involving euron is fair game for abuse because both the character and everything he was involved in was shite.

Possibly one of the worst characters of any TV show.

[Trada]

They have released a picture from the next one its very.....

Spoiler

Nuremberg but where did all those troops come from.

[close]

[Nobby Reserve]

I think anything involving euron is fair game for abuse because both the character and everything he was involved in was shite.

Agree. And what makes it worse is that B&W seemed obsessed with him. I think some of the more ridiculous scenes were adapted/written just to involve him (the killing of Rhaegal for a start)

[Raaphael]

I like the new season. It has happened a little bit too fast maybe. And the Euron character is shite. We can all agree on that.

[Sharado]

Agree. And what makes it worse is that B&W seemed obsessed with him. I think some of the more ridiculous scenes were adapted/written just to involve him (the killing of Rhaegal for a start)

I think they wanted to involve him to make him matter, because no one cared about him. Absolute pantomime character.

[Red Viper]

Agree. And what makes it worse is that B&W seemed obsessed with him. I think some of the more ridiculous scenes were adapted/written just to involve him (the killing of Rhaegal for a start)

Euron killing a dragon is probably something they got from GRRM, but Euron in the books is essentially a completely different character from the Euron in the show.

[Trada]

I have this thing for some reason about Bran turning Jon into the new Night King ..... it would lead to a poetic ending he could bring all the dead back to life in Kings Landing and take out Danni her army and dragon.

But I guess it would involve Bran fast traveling to Kings Landing.

[rob1966]

I think they wanted to involve him to make him matter, because no one cared about him. Absolute pantomime character.

He is the Man City of GoT

[JackWard33]

I don't think we will agree on this, but I can only go by what I have seen and read about in real life and what I have seen in other comparable works of fiction. Dany didn't act like a tyrant, she acted more like an entertaining TV character through most of this. Now she didn't have to be twirling her mustache through the previous 7 seasons, but they could have done so much more. Oh well. 

She didn’t?! Her basic motivation is the acquisition of power as an absolute ruler - that’s base tyranny
She enjoyed the brutal death of her brother, has routinely burned enemies alive, mass killed opposing groups whether they included innocent members or not and executed prisoners, she only ever delayed the sacking of the city because she was pursuaded from her own desires.
She’s done some good things but that’s kind of the point - she has absolute power; people are asked to live to her will and whim

By making her super fit, giving her a ton of characters we like around her who fawn over her and spending a lot of time with her the show has done a great job of making us sympathetic to a tyrant; it’s a great morality tale for the biasies in us all 

[royhendo]

“She’s done some good things”.