The Liverpool FC Forum > Former LFC Players
Naby Keita Watch
spider-neil:
--- Quote from: PoetryInMotion on January 25, 2022, 10:32:00 pm ---True, agree with that. We are also not recycling the ball as well as we can at different game states. The return of Thiago should help and probably some focus on our game management in training.
Fair points regarding his availability and having to do more than 'okay'. On one hand Milner will leave this season, and on the other hand Jones and Elliot can step up and we may sign other midfielders. Remains to be seen, how the club will plan the futures of these two players.
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This is going to be dependent on how much money we have in the bank. We've shown that we're more than happy to let midfielders leave on a free. Can, Gini, Milner (almost certainly). So potentially Ox and Keita will be allowed to walk for free next summer. There seems to be a perception that we're eager to get rid of both players but I've seen no indication that we are actively trying to get rid at all. Sure, if a big enough offer came in for either we'd probably move them on but that applies to all but a handful of players in the squad. Keita is 26 so 2 years off his prime. He was scouted for a long time, knows the systems and performs well when plays so the decision isn't clear cut.
This summer is pivotal with regards to extensions because next summer, Keita, Ox, Mane, and Firmino can leave on a free. If Liverpool takes up the option of another year on Origi he'll also leave in 2023 (if not Origi leaves on a free this summer). So there are a lot of big decisions to be made.
Knight:
--- Quote from: PoetryInMotion on January 25, 2022, 10:23:59 pm ---Great for doing that in 6 League games he started.
Hopefully he gets to show more of that in the pitch for the rest of the season, and more?
Edit: On a second look, it also shows that Milner makes the 2nd highest number of the defensive actions listed per 90, in the whole team, and ahead of Fabinho. So, Milner is LOADS better defensively than Fabinho.
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These are really great posts from you poetryinmotion thanks for taking the time to engage in such depth with multiple people, it’s conversations like these, and quality posters like you, that make this such an enjoyable place to discuss football.
I totally agree about limited minutes from Keita, I did say that in another post where I provided the fbref link. Milner and Fabinho typically take up slightly different positions so Fabinho having less defensive actions is no surprise. Keita and Henderson are both front footed 8s out of possession so it’s a little different. However we think Keita is doing the stats certainly show a worrying decline from Henderson defensively by the way.
Knight:
--- Quote from: PoetryInMotion on January 25, 2022, 10:21:33 pm ---I don't disagree with any of this.
I'm not equating being progressive = creative, I'm doing the exact opposite of trying to separate between the two. Many people have been asking for a creative midfielder for a long time and think that if we start Keita/Ox/Elliot or someone who can dribble, we will suddenly become more creative from midfield, which is not exactly true. The thing is that even they will have primary defensive responsibilities.
We signed Thiago for his ball progression, absolutely agree, but we wouldn't have signed Thiago if he wasn't tactically intelligent defensive positioning wise, or if was going to buckle out of challenges. Thiago makes a lot of recoveries, wins many challenges, both in the ground and in the air. I don't think Thiago is that inferior to Wijnaldum defensively at all. The thing is Klopp may allow a marginal trade-off in defensive stability to create chances, but he's not going to convert our No. 8s into No. 10s. This is one of the reasons, why Klopp tried Shaqiri and it didn't really work out, because Shaqiri was a No. 10 and he didn't know where to play him. He couldn't play Shaqiri in midfield, and we even tried 4-2-3-1 in some games to accommodate him, but Klopp went back to 4-3-3 and froze him out.
Thiago is still a No. 8, not a No. 10, whereas some people want 1 or 2 of our CMs to act as our No. 10, who are creative, create chances themselves, record assists and score a few goals. Our CMs are not going to do that primarily. My post was to clarify on those lines.
For example, we wouldn't have signed Ozil or De Bruyne to play them as CMs in our system, just because they have progressive and creative abilities. De Bruyne only contested 14 aerial duels in the whole of last season having started 25 games, and lost 10 of those duels. Whether if we did sign them and then change the system to suit them is a different question. I think the clamor for playing No. 10s as CMs come from watching City and their overall attacking success, without the understanding that we and City play entirely differently.
To clarify - I would absolutely love for us to get another progressive CM, within the Klopp framework, where they can hold their own defensively (ala Thiago), but I wouldn't expect this player to create chances, assist or score frequently, just like I don't expect Thiago to do all that.
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This is very good. And I think the lack of offensive production from whoever has been our most advanced 8 is evidence against Klopp wanting more goals and assists from CM than he’s been getting. He definitely wanted more ball progression from the controlling 8 - which is the left sided 8 (or at least is where Gini and Thiago always play(Ed). However, I’m not so sure we can say that Klopp wouldn’t prefer a bit more offensively from his most advanced 8 (not a 10 but a more advanced 8). If Elliott had kept on playing where he was on the pitch at the beginning do you really think he wouldn’t have picked up goals and assists? It felt to me like those triangles with Trent and Salah were causing all of them to get into more varied positions - Salah creating more, Trent shooting more, Elliott in final 3rd places more than 8s have been in the past.
spider-neil:
--- Quote from: Knight on January 26, 2022, 10:42:09 am ---This is very good. And I think the lack of offensive production from whoever has been our most advanced 8 is evidence against Klopp wanting more goals and assists from CM than he’s been getting. He definitely wanted more ball progression from the controlling 8 - which is the left sided 8 (or at least is where Gini and Thiago always play(Ed). However, I’m not so sure we can say that Klopp wouldn’t prefer a bit more offensively from his most advanced 8 (not a 10 but a more advanced 8). If Elliott had kept on playing where he was on the pitch at the beginning do you really think he wouldn’t have picked up goals and assists? It felt to me like those triangles with Trent and Salah were causing all of them to get into more varied positions - Salah creating more, Trent shooting more, Elliott in final 3rd places more than 8s have been in the past.
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More than likely but would be even more open in midfield than we are this season? I thought we were too open against Chelsea and Henderson was drifting over to the right far too often despite having a starting position on the left. If Elliot is going to be a fixture in the team and Fab is a fixture in the team (as he must be) then IMHO Henderson has to drop out of the team.
PoetryInMotion:
--- Quote from: Knight on January 26, 2022, 10:42:09 am ---This is very good. And I think the lack of offensive production from whoever has been our most advanced 8 is evidence against Klopp wanting more goals and assists from CM than he’s been getting. He definitely wanted more ball progression from the controlling 8 - which is the left sided 8 (or at least is where Gini and Thiago always play(Ed). However, I’m not so sure we can say that Klopp wouldn’t prefer a bit more offensively from his most advanced 8 (not a 10 but a more advanced 8). If Elliott had kept on playing where he was on the pitch at the beginning do you really think he wouldn’t have picked up goals and assists? It felt to me like those triangles with Trent and Salah were causing all of them to get into more varied positions - Salah creating more, Trent shooting more, Elliott in final 3rd places more than 8s have been in the past.
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We have to wait and see if Elliot affects the game in the manner you say. However, our overall attacking game, even without him has been brilliant. We are outscoring City, and we are creating lots of chances game after game. The thing is that, our attacking game is not broken, and there is no need to fix it, whether that is in midfield or in attack. We can add options, and rotate between those options obviously, but we don't need to poke and mend.
But, our weaknesses, especially in midfield has been in shielding the defense. If Elliot is the answer to that problem, I'd be very happy, mate.
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