Topic: The West, Israel and Islam - Your Opinion (*)

[Fat Scouser]

throwing molotov cocktwails at passenger cars isn't nice at all. But I can't see how it justifies the years of terrorim the Palestinians have suffered. The people of the west bank and gazza are pretty much all refugees who were ran off their land and coraled into two tiny strips of land. You can go back to biblical times to argue who the land actually belongs to. But the fact is, England had no right whatsover to give the land away in 1948, and since then the Palestinians have suffered systematic cleansing from land they owned. The last round of the none stop aggression was blamed on the abduction and murder of 3 Israeli youths. The rhetoric got changed into retaliation for Hamass rockets. But again, the fact is, innocent Palestinians were killed in their 1000's, and, correct me if I'm wrong, 3 israeli civilians were killed by the home made bottle rockets fired from Gazza.

No doubt, I'll be called anti-semitic yet again. i don't feel special or scapegoated. That is the tatic used against anyone that speaks out against Israels treatment of the Palestinians. in fact, it's a jailable offence. Were as going to fight for the IDF is condoned. But let's have something right, I am not anti-semitic. In fact, I think ordinary decent JEwish people have been terribly conned and used by a Zionist government that will not stop it's persecution of the Palestinians until they are all either dead or run out of israel. That does not make me pro Islam, either. As I've stated many times, I find Allah every bit as nonsensical as Jaweh. But then, I believe religion is only the smokescreen used to manipulate people and really has nothing to do with the conflicts in the middle east. People, eh. Sad thing is, we're just not a very nice species.

[Fat Scouser]

I know the balfour decleartion was made in 1917. I know a lot of the lands have been purchased by americans sending poor people into the settlements. I know Bnai Brith and the jewish Congress. I spent a few summers at a jewish camp america. My brother has worked for them for many years. I also know I'm not the smartest but I stand by what I said about the Palestinians being driven out. And that's exactly why i say, I'll be called Anti-Semetic. As saying that, always brings out the accusation. it's a tactic. But Rosh ha ganav, no. I don't have a clue.

I consider the PC cause celeb of racism is nothing but a smokescreen. I suppose that makes me Racist. All I can say is, i'm 58. I've seen racism dwindle away in the last 40 years. i'm talking the racism of ordinary working people. But as I've seen that dwindle, I've seen the state anti-racism movement grow until child molesters aren't arrested due to race sensitivity. As I said, i really don't think very highly of us as a species. But I'm sure you're a very nice fella. I think most individuals are. But I've also been called a thief in my own country for decades because of how i speak and because of where I was born, when the fact is, Liverpool has been systematically plundered and left to rot by the elites of government. So, i'd like to think i don't scapegoat anyone. But that doesn't change my opinion on how the Palestanians have been treated.

[Fat Scouser]

Oh well, off to bed. I was hoping for a translation of that hal rosh ha ganav boer ha kova. As I said, I'm not the sharpest. So this is probably wrong, but it's something like "Through deception, war." It's Mossads motto, and it just about sums up my opinion on this... we're all being played like Pianos, including most Jewish people. But that doesn't mean I get my opinions from Joseph Goebbels. One of the few people I do believe is Norman Finklestein. Which only brings me back to what I said in the first place... I don't think very highly of us as a species. And I might aswell leave it at that.

[Fat Scouser]

Without doubt. As I said, I quite like most individuals. It's just our organisations and institutions I have the problem with. Bu have a read back, and you'll see why I mentioned the anti-semitism. It's not the first time I've been accused of it, or racism on here. And the funny thing is, you'll do well to meet anyone less likely to pick on scapegoats for something they have no control over. I have no problem with people being what they are. What they choose to be and do is another question. Anyway, you have a nice night too. But a translation would still be appreciated.

[Fat Scouser]

Ha! Well at least that gave me a chuckle. Now I'm off to scorch the pillow. I hope that doesn't make me anti-fire bobby

[GREGtheRED]

No doubt, I'll be called anti-semitic yet again. i don't feel special or scapegoated. That is the tatic used against anyone that speaks out against Israels treatment of the Palestinians. in fact, it's a jailable offence. Were as going to fight for the IDF is condoned. But let's have something right, I am not anti-semitic. In fact, I think ordinary decent JEwish people have been terribly conned and used by a Zionist government that will not stop it's persecution of the Palestinians until they are all either dead or run out of israel. That does not make me pro Islam, either. As I've stated many times, I find Allah every bit as nonsensical as Jaweh. But then, I believe religion is only the smokescreen used to manipulate people and really has nothing to do with the conflicts in the middle east. People, eh. Sad thing is, we're just not a very nice species.

I'm not quite sure where you are going with this line of thought. Conned by a zionist government? What do you mean? I know a lot of Israelis, many of them family members, and I don't know a single one who wouldn't happily describe themselves as zionists. What's more the vast majority of them have no belief or interest in religion.

[God's Left Peg]

An Israeli and a Palestinian gesture at one another during Palestinian protests against Jewish visitors to the compound known to Muslims as Noble Sanctuary and to Jews as Temple Mount in the Old City.

Good god. Says it all. As do the kids' faces.

[Fat Scouser]

Well, they're not conned then are they. As the last thing the Israeli government is interested in is religion. I also have Jewish family members an all. My brother married into them. His kids are being raised Jewish, as is their tradition. I hope they turn out to be decent fellas. Our kid is, and I'm sure they'll be alright. But I really can't be arsed having another argument. In fact, I won't have any internet for a few days so that's a blessing. Save's me calling the anti-defemation league. Oh, hold on. I'm a Goy. It only works the other way round doesn't it? But as the thread is called... your opinion. All i can say is, I've gave mine. i have no interest in any god. I know attrocities have been getting done in all their names since we invented them. I think they're all equally crap. if anyone of them was decent, they'd turn up and put an end to all this suffering in their name. Or maybe they're just to busy listening to all the prayers and telling people what haircuts to have. But on this issue, my sympathies lie with the Palestinians.

And barring that drunken interlude, i think i've made me thoughts very plain. But in case anyone thinks that's a bit too sarcastic... If anything, i consider meself a Socialist. There's plenty of people who would say, that makes me a Zionist dupe. That's the thing though... I'm 58 now. I've lived through quite a bit of shite, but, in my adult life, i've never seen the world in such a dangerous mess. Nor have I seen so much disinformation and propaganda, and I can't see it getting any better quick. I just hope another decade or so of austerity is the worst of me problems. And on that cheery note, tara and i hope things are okay for all of you.

[Broad Spectrum]

I grew up with it meaning peace. Really not sure though to be honest, it's been 12 years since I left, and the meaning has been changed? I think Jeb would be a better authority.

Well it certainly doesn't look friendly from either woman there.

Assuming we are all up in arms over the fact that Jews are not allowed to pray at their holiest site...

I just posted this from a collection of photos I seen on the Guardian website, and that was the caption beneath it. Probably should have posted the link as it looks like my own comment there. The temple has also now been closed to both Muslims and Jews due to the shooting of a right-wing Rabbi. [link] [link]

[Broad Spectrum]

Can't believe Maureen Lipman has actually said this in a recent interview:

Hong Kong may be about to see a replay of Tiananmen. Islamist terrorism in every spot on the globe and if one Jew had been responsible for any of those bombings, there would, I am afraid to say, have been another Kristallnacht.

The interview was in response to the vote which recently took place in parliament, where a huge majority voted in favour of recognising the Palestinian state. Around 50% of MP's actually abstained from the vote altogether. This is another quote from the same interview:

At this point in our history you choose to back these footling backbenchers in this ludicrous piece of propaganda?

Hilarious stuff.


Full article here.

[God's Left Peg]

Well, they're not conned then are they. As the last thing the Israeli government is interested in is religion. I also have Jewish family members an all. My brother married into them. His kids are being raised Jewish, as is their tradition. I hope they turn out to be decent fellas. Our kid is, and I'm sure they'll be alright. But I really can't be arsed having another argument. In fact, I won't have any internet for a few days so that's a blessing. Save's me calling the anti-defemation league. Oh, hold on. I'm a Goy. It only works the other way round doesn't it? But as the thread is called... your opinion. All i can say is, I've gave mine. i have no interest in any god. I know attrocities have been getting done in all their names since we invented them. I think they're all equally crap. if anyone of them was decent, they'd turn up and put an end to all this suffering in their name. Or maybe they're just to busy listening to all the prayers and telling people what haircuts to have. But on this issue, my sympathies lie with the Palestinians.

And barring that drunken interlude, i think i've made me thoughts very plain. But in case anyone thinks that's a bit too sarcastic... If anything, i consider meself a Socialist. There's plenty of people who would say, that makes me a Zionist dupe. That's the thing though... I'm 58 now. I've lived through quite a bit of shite, but, in my adult life, i've never seen the world in such a dangerous mess. Nor have I seen so much disinformation and propaganda, and I can't see it getting any better quick. I just hope another decade or so of austerity is the worst of me problems. And on that cheery note, tara and i hope things are okay for all of you.

Don't stay out of here too long. Your posts are appreciated.

[Euskadi]

Don't stay out of here too long. Your posts are appreciated.

I'll second that, refreshing honesty.

[youll never walk alone it]

I will third that! 

[John C]

Good god. Says it all. As do the kids' faces.

And that sad irony that one is holding a ball and one is wearing a footy top. Grasp a consolidating identity.

[RedRabbit]

So Sweden becomes the first EU country (while being a member) to recognise the State of Palestine.

Should we (the rest of the EU) follow their lead?

Would it help speed up a two state solution if in fact there are two states to find one?

[nyctex]

So Sweden becomes the first EU country (while being a member) to recognise the State of Palestine.

Should we (the rest of the EU) follow?

Did Sweden define the borders just by themselves?  Or is it a virtual "Palestine" they are recognizing?

[RedRabbit]

Did Sweden define the borders just by themselves?  Or is it a virtual "Palestine" they are recognizing?

As far as I'm aware they didn't outline what the borders of the state would be. I would presume they would leave that up to the 2 countries involved, as is right. They did say that they fufilled the criteria under international law to be recognised as one, which surprisingly, to me at any rate, doesn't seem to mention borders directly. Just that the body politic has control over internal matters, that there is a people and  territory .

If it also had to have defined borders then how would any state become a state if it were not already a state, if ya get me?

[nyctex]

As far as I'm aware they didn't outline what the borders of the state would be. I would presume they would leave that up to the 2 countries involved, as is right. They did say that they fufilled the criteria under international law to be recognised as one, which surprisingly, to me at any rate, doesn't seem to mention borders directly. Just that the body politic has control over internal matters, that there is a people and  territory .

If it also had to have defined borders then how would any state become a state if it were not already a state, if ya get me?

Fatah has no control over Gaza.  Is Sweden recognizing 2 governments - one Hamas led and one PLO led?

This is putting the cart before the horse and will hinder any hope for a peaceful 2 state solution.  These decisions like borders, security etc need to hammered out first.    Unfortunately it will only embolden the Arabs to continue to reject a two state solution.  Why on earth would they negotiate in good faith when they are getting concessions unilaterally? 

[bigbonedrawky]

Did Sweden define the borders just by themselves?  Or is it a virtual "Palestine" they are recognizing?

The UN partition borders where drawn up in 1947 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine (which heavily favored Israel )
Sweden have become the 135th UN member state to recognise Palestine. 
 

[nyctex]

The UN partition borders where drawn up in 1947 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine (which heavily favored Israel )
Sweden have become the 135th UN member state to recognise Palestine. 
 

Those lines drawn in 1947 are not the border for a new Arab state.  If Sweden did recognize those lines then parts of modern Israel are now Arab territory. 

[Jebediah]

So seeing as Yorkyrawky's Palestine contains both the 2nd and 3rd holiest sites in Judaism, do you think the new Palestinian state will allow Jews access to their holy sites?

[Jebediah]

Those lines drawn in 1947 are not the border for a new Arab state.  If Sweden did recognize those lines then parts of modern Israel are now Arab territory. 

And every single Jew living there (myself included) would be expelled from their homes. After all, Mahmoud Abbas himself said that Palestine will be Jew free.

[bigbonedrawky]

Those lines drawn in 1947 are not the border for a new Arab state.   

Have you got a alternative map of the "New Arab State" although the "New" bit is Israel

If Sweden did recognize those lines then parts of modern Israel are now Arab territory. 

Exactly 

[bigbonedrawky]

So seeing as Yorky's Palestine contains both the 2nd and 3rd holiest sites in Judaism, do you think the new Palestinian state will allow Jews access to their holy sites?

Its not my Palestine... for one thing I wouldn't of given the minority the majority of the land but more importantly it wouldn't be mine to give away.
When that map was drawn Jews had access to the 1st 2nd and 3rd holiest sites

[nyctex]

Exactly 

and you think that will somehow add stability and reconciliation in the area? 

[shizzledizzle]

http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-4586605,00.html

Rocket from Gaza exploded in the Eshkol Regional Council
Rocket fired from Gaza exploded last night Eshkol Regional Council . It is unclear whether this is a deliberate shooting and who is behind it . The IDF did not respond
Yoav Zitonforsm : 01:11:14 , 01:15

Rocket fired last night ( Friday ) from the Gaza Strip exploded in the east of the border fence , in an open area in Eshkol Regional Council . Warning systems have identified the rocket fire , but did not sound an alarm . No injuries or damage were reported . This is the second rocket falls in Israeli territory since the end of Operation " cliff with them ."
 
At around 21:20 the rocket was launched and exploded in the southern Gaza Strip near the border fence . First, the IDF claims that rocket exploded in the Gaza Strip , but later found out that the rocket crossed the border fence . When shooting does not sound like an explosion

Army looking into who was behind the shooting . Intelligence effort focused on whether it is now clearly rogue operatives fired despite a ban imposed by Hamas launching rockets into Israel since the end of Operation cliff with them , or a malfunction in one of a Hamas test-fired as part of a renewed buildup of its rocket structure . The IDF did not respond by the hour at the source of fire or at other targets in the Gaza Strip .

First violated the cease-fire three weeks after entering into force . Even then in the evening a rocket exploded in an open area near the security fence in the Eshkol Regional Council , without causing casualties or damage . After the shooting, claiming that Hamas demanded that Israel stop and punish the launchers and Hamas said they arrested the members of the squad .
 
In early October , less than a month and a half to one end of the operation in Gaza , Hamas resumed rocket experiments and performed short-term launches towards the sea . Last week, sources in Gaza claimed that there were at least six such test-fired recently .


Sorry that it is Google translate, I don't have the time to translate it word by word as it is an Israeli source (which probably means it's Israeli propaganda and that this is just made up stuff).

[RedRabbit]

Fatah has no control over Gaza.  Is Sweden recognizing 2 governments - one Hamas led and one PLO led?

This is putting the cart before the horse and will hinder any hope for a peaceful 2 state solution.  These decisions like borders, security etc need to hammered out first.    Unfortunately it will only embolden the Arabs to continue to reject a two state solution.  Why on earth would they negotiate in good faith when they are getting concessions unilaterally? 

This may come as a shock Tex, but I'm not in the Swedish government. I've no idea who they will accept as the government. Maybe they're hoping this will help turn people away from Hamas and try a more diplomatic route. I haven't a scooby.

Hammering out borders and "security issues" (what does that mean precisely?) before doing anything else seems to be going swimmingly so far. So you may be right, let's stick to what's been working so well up until now, eh?

[Corkboy]

This may come as a shock Tex, but I'm not in the Swedish government.

Well, now I don't know what to believe.

[Gnurglan]

While I have respect for Wallström, our Foreign Minister, we do have some elements that I'd not trust for a second. Apparently, we have another minister, Kaplan, who apparently have links to islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood (not quite sure what they're called in English) and I believe he's been spotted at meetings with rather extreme groups too. It's not just the typical old politicians anymore. It seems the social demokrats in Sweden want to be brave, which may be a good thing. But so far they've not impressed. And then they make sure to get themselves involved in the longest ongoing conflict of mankind... Let's just say it may be brave, but perhaps not the first thing you ought to do when you are trying to get going with a rather weak power position.

[bigbonedrawky]

and you think that will somehow add stability and reconciliation in the area?

I wouldn't hold my breath, the drawing of that map led to a Bloodbath and 65 years of bloody turmoil in the Middle East.
On another note it is also the Birth certificate of Israel, so to doubt it's credibility is to also doubt the "legal"existence of Israel.
   

[Jebediah]

The silence in regards to recent events in Jerusalem is deafening.

Today, for the second time in as many weeks, a Palestinian man has driven his car into a crowded light rail platform (that i happen to use every single day), killing one and injuring many. It is now 3 people killed in these attacks, including a 3 month old baby.

PA President Mahmoud Abbas has been inciting attacks, calling on Palestinians to 'defend'* the Temple Mount by any means possible, and by praising the perpetrator of an assassination attempt on the streets of Jerusalem last week, calling the attacker (who shot someone 3 times at point blank range) a "martyr", a "hero", and a "defender of Palestine".

Crowds of people are rioting across the city, including on the Temple Mount, hurling rocks and molotov cocktails at police, egged on by a leadership apparently unwilling or unable to halt the spread of Hamas' message of violence and death.

Where are the international condemnations? Where are the special session at the UN? Where is the rush on these boards to condemn the murders? Let me just repeat this -- THE PRESIDENT OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY IS OPENLY INCITING VIOLENCE AND PRAISING PEOPLE WHO SHOOT PEOPLE ON THE STREETS.

*There is nothing going on on the Temple Mount that needs 'defending'. There is no Judaization of the site. On the contrary, for years now, not a single Jew is allowed to pray at Judaism's holiest site. A christian can not even walk there whilst wearing a cross around his or her neck. Where are the international condemnations? Where are the special session at the UN? Where is the rush on these boards to condemn the total lack of religious freedoms at the site. They are non-existent and instead Hamas and the Palestinian leaders are able to pedal their lies to a world that doesn't want to know the truth, and the result is simply death, death and more death.

[kesey]

We're all one !

The sooner people realise this the better.

[TepidT2O]

We're all one !

The sooner people realise this the better.

Fucking hell, three words, three fucking words that people just can't understand.

It's absurd.

Brilliant clarity there Kesey

[kesey]

Fucking hell, three words, three fucking words that people just can't understand.

It's absurd.

Brilliant clarity there Kesey

Thanks.

It only took me nearly 17,000 posts.

 

[Paul_h]

We're all one !

The sooner people realise this the better.

you try telling that to the zionist extremists. Good luck with that!

[Paul_h]

lol just as soon as we have some common sense in this thread, you go and ruin it.

Yes, tell it to the zionist extremists as Jeb just pointed out several terror acts committed curiously enough, not by Zionist extremists.

It's always only one side's fault.

haha. touched a nerve have I. That was a response to Kesey not Jeb.

For Jeb's point, maybe he should remind himself at the last round of casualty figures for lack of lack of western sympathy?

[kesey]

lol just as soon as we have some common sense in this thread, you go and ruin it.

Yes, tell it to the zionist extremists as Jeb just pointed out several terror acts committed curiously enough, not by Zionist extremists.

It's always only one side's fault.

Brother.

Try telling it to the opposite of the extreme point of view.

It's the same thing - minus the ego.

We are all one . Tell people.

Thankyou .

Shalom  / Abhumillillah .

[kesey]

That post was meant for Paul H

:

[Fat Scouser]

We're all one !

The sooner people realise this the better.

Talk for yourself. I'm a right one

[Broad Spectrum]

.

I'm heavily in support of the Palestinian movement, and for obvious reasons given the fact they were effectively 'sold down the river' by the ruling British decades ago and have been heavily persecuted since. But it is complete and utter nonsense that followers of Judaism are unable to openly pray at their holiest site. If it's not xenophobic hatred between European Israeli's and Arabic Palestinians in the region, then it is religious discrimination between followers of Judaism and followers of Islam. They should both be allowed to openly pray, irrespective of who rules the land.

Let me make a point with regards to the UN though and the lack of International condemnation. Israel illegally annexed East Jerusalem shortly after the 1967 war, and thus the area has never been internationally recognised by the UN as 'Israeli territory', so to say. This, in combination with the low numbers of fatalities, I think has contributed to a lack of International response.

I can assure you though, that the ordinary British public who take an interest in events in the middle east are fully aware of the events unfolding themselves in Jerusalem right now, and it isn't doing the Palestinian movement any favours whatsoever.