Author Topic: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22  (Read 63322 times)

Offline BassTunedToRed

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #80 on: October 20, 2021, 03:12:28 pm »
That's what a 14 game run which only yields 12 points will do. That poor stretch aside we've been mid 80s or better for 38 games for about three years.

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #81 on: October 20, 2021, 07:33:27 pm »





Offline farawayred

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #82 on: October 20, 2021, 10:00:29 pm »
Did somebody used the "Arresto Momentum" charm on Leicester? Bring Arsenal to their attention.
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Offline johnny74

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #83 on: October 23, 2021, 10:03:35 pm »
We've had nowt at Old Trafford for a while now and don't see this changing. I think they'll raise their game here and do us.

Offline farawayred

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #84 on: October 24, 2021, 12:30:56 am »
We've had nowt at Old Trafford for a while now and don't see this changing. I think they'll raise their game here and do us.
It’s the only way. They will play for Ole’s life.
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Offline BondysNiners

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #85 on: October 24, 2021, 01:19:08 am »
We've had nowt at Old Trafford for a while now and don't see this changing. I think they'll raise their game here and do us.

We won there 2-4 last season?
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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #86 on: October 24, 2021, 04:27:07 am »
We won there 2-4 last season?

Fuck off.

Offline BoRed

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #87 on: October 24, 2021, 10:45:17 am »
We won there 2-4 last season?

Doesn't count, BCD.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #88 on: October 24, 2021, 01:02:55 pm »
It’s the only way. They will play for Ole’s life.

Everything going against us today.  They've got momentum after a massive win for Ole in the CL and we barely scraped by.  Just don't see us getting anything out of this game.  I'm just hoping we keep it close. 

Offline palimpsest

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #89 on: October 24, 2021, 02:33:15 pm »
Everything going against us today.  They've got momentum after a massive win for Ole in the CL and we barely scraped by.  Just don't see us getting anything out of this game.  I'm just hoping we keep it close.

Hard agree.
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Offline johnny74

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #90 on: October 24, 2021, 06:29:48 pm »
We've had nowt at Old Trafford for a while now and don't see this changing. I think they'll raise their game here and do us.

Felt I needed to get that one in today. Hope this helped.

Offline farawayred

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #91 on: October 24, 2021, 06:37:41 pm »
Felt I needed to get that one in today. Hope this helped.
Mockers rule, mate. That’s what rules this thread. ;D

Good counteracting
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Offline johnny74

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #92 on: October 24, 2021, 07:46:22 pm »
Mockers rule, mate. That’s what rules this thread. ;D

Good counteracting


It's just a glitch before our eventual relegation. Have we got 40 pts yet?

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #93 on: October 24, 2021, 08:23:20 pm »
Tremendous performance in here folks.  Proud of you all.   :scarf :scarf :scarf

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #94 on: October 24, 2021, 08:29:04 pm »





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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #95 on: October 24, 2021, 11:55:35 pm »
Thanks for these over the years Prof! Would consider adding West Ham to this years table.

Offline sminp

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #96 on: October 25, 2021, 09:02:54 am »
Thanks Prof, there’s a small error on the bar graph though. We should have a green away win against Man U not Man City. Those mancs are all the same it’s easily done.
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Offline Dr Stu-Pid

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #97 on: October 25, 2021, 11:53:43 am »


Quote
This is the 38 game current form for each team broken down into 5 game segments (with one 3 game segment at the top).  The closer to the bottom and the darker the colour the more recent (and so more relevant) the games are.

So we have 11 points from our last 5 games, 13 points from the 5 games before that, etc, etc

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #98 on: October 25, 2021, 01:17:15 pm »

Wow. Can't believe these charts.

I mean, how are Spurs only 2 pts back on us on APLT, when any time I've seen them they've been utter dreck? I suppose they spawned a few wins early on.

It couldn't be more obviously a 3 horse race. It's going to be tough, but I fully believe in the reds.
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Offline joe ®

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #99 on: October 27, 2021, 09:31:57 am »
Wow. Can't believe these charts.

I mean, how are Spurs only 2 pts back on us on APLT, when any time I've seen them they've been utter dreck? I suppose they spawned a few wins early on.

It couldn't be more obviously a 3 horse race. It's going to be tough, but I fully believe in the reds.

Also because for us, although the performances had some positives, the Chelsea, City and Brentford results were all -2 games on here. Even if just the Brentford game had been won, we'd be well clear of Spurs.

Also shows what huge missed opportunities the Chelsea and City games were.

Offline Dr Stu-Pid

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #100 on: October 27, 2021, 10:25:32 am »
I'll repeat what I said earlier in the thread, which is that people need to stop taking this thread and the APLT so literally.  All the APLT does is give an alternate view of the table based on a single strength of schedule measure. 

For the APLT home advantage is absolute and any time you don't win a home game you lose points and it is seen as a negative.  That is balanced out by being expected to drop points in away games that are likely much easier fixtures than the home game that you just drew.

You could equally well distribute the expected points by a different method and come up with a very different looking table after the same number of games.  Neither table would be 'correct', so neither should be used as anything other than another data point to consider in the overall analysis.

As a case in point, here is another view of Prof's graph using a different points allocation system which I track:



Again, mine isn't 'correct' and Prof's isn't 'wrong', they are just different ways of looking at the same data.

Think of it this way, with 3 games left in the season would you rather be 3 points ahead in either of the APLT tables above but 3 points behind in the actual PL table, or visa versa?

Only one table is ever correct, and that is the actual PL table after 38 games have been played.  The rest are just interesting ways of looking at the results data which are all imperfect in their own way.

Again, this isn't an attack on this thread or Prof's work, as it was this thread that was my reason for ultimately becoming a member of this site rather than just a lurker.  It's the best thread on RAWK (well, maybe that honour goes to the Utd thread at the moment...)!

Offline royhendo

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #101 on: October 27, 2021, 11:31:06 am »
As a case in point, here is another view of Prof's graph using a different points allocation system which I track:

Again, mine isn't 'correct' and Prof's isn't 'wrong', they are just different ways of looking at the same data.

What's the basis for your points allocation senor? :)
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Offline Sharado

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #102 on: October 27, 2021, 11:36:20 am »
Wow. Can't believe these charts.

I mean, how are Spurs only 2 pts back on us on APLT, when any time I've seen them they've been utter dreck? I suppose they spawned a few wins early on.

It couldn't be more obviously a 3 horse race. It's going to be tough, but I fully believe in the reds.


So a weird thing about the APLT I've found before is if you have a lot of trickier par games [say away to city and chelsea for example] what that means is you might be down on this table, but what that might mean is you can make a lot of your defecit up.

I think the 18/19 season city toward the tail end seemed to leap up a couple of points week on week, so from a bad 'par' position they suddenly started to look ominous. That's the challenge for us now I'd say.
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Offline Dr Stu-Pid

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #103 on: October 27, 2021, 11:52:10 am »
What's the basis for your points allocation senor? :)

I use the expectations below:

 - Win against the 'easiest' 11 sides both home and away (0 points dropped)
 - Win against the 'middle' 5 teams at home (0 points dropped)
 - Draw against the 'hardest' 3 teams at home (6 points dropped)
 - Draw against the 'middle' 6 teams away (12 points dropped)
 - Lose against the 'hardest' 2 teams away (6 points dropped)
 - Total of 90 points (24 points dropped)

Teams are allocated based on the previous season's finishing positions, with the newly promoted teams falling into the first group.  So for this season City and United were the 'hardest' 2 teams, with Chelsea being 3rd, etc. 

Our two draws with City and Chelsea were therefore 'par' results and beating United was a +3, with Leeds away being a +2 and Brentford being a -2.

Offline royhendo

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #104 on: October 27, 2021, 12:01:57 pm »
I use the expectations below:

 - Win against the 'easiest' 11 sides both home and away (0 points dropped)
 - Win against the 'middle' 5 teams at home (0 points dropped)
 - Draw against the 'hardest' 3 teams at home (6 points dropped)
 - Draw against the 'middle' 6 teams away (12 points dropped)
 - Lose against the 'hardest' 2 teams away (6 points dropped)
 - Total of 90 points (24 points dropped)

Teams are allocated based on the previous season's finishing positions, with the newly promoted teams falling into the first group.  So for this season City and United were the 'hardest' 2 teams, with Chelsea being 3rd, etc. 

Our two draws with City and Chelsea were therefore 'par' results and beating United was a +3, with Leeds away being a +2 and Brentford being a -2.

Thank you :)
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Offline thaddeus

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #105 on: October 27, 2021, 12:18:19 pm »
I'll repeat what I said earlier in the thread, which is that people need to stop taking this thread and the APLT so literally.  All the APLT does is give an alternate view of the table based on a single strength of schedule measure.
I'm a big fan of the APLT to give some context to the difficulty of games played and the relative achievements of each club.  I think both ourselves and Man City broke the mould with the ~100 point seasons as no model can account for that.  I think it was in the season that we missed out by a point that we had a big APLT lead but City reeled it in as by a quirk of the fixtures they had a lot of par 1 games left but they were actually away games against the likes of Everton and Southampton and they duly won them all.

This is absolutely no criticism of the Prof but that par 1 subset can easily skew the table.  Chelsea gaining +4 from away wins at hopeless Arsenal and Spurs early doors being a good example.

Offline wige

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #106 on: October 27, 2021, 12:23:58 pm »
I use the expectations below:

 - Win against the 'easiest' 11 sides both home and away (0 points dropped)
 - Win against the 'middle' 5 teams at home (0 points dropped)
 - Draw against the 'hardest' 3 teams at home (6 points dropped)
 - Draw against the 'middle' 6 teams away (12 points dropped)
 - Lose against the 'hardest' 2 teams away (6 points dropped)
 - Total of 90 points (24 points dropped)

Teams are allocated based on the previous season's finishing positions, with the newly promoted teams falling into the first group.  So for this season City and United were the 'hardest' 2 teams, with Chelsea being 3rd, etc. 

Our two draws with City and Chelsea were therefore 'par' results and beating United was a +3, with Leeds away being a +2 and Brentford being a -2.

As much as I love the APLT, this is a much more accurate way of weighting the fixtures imo.

There's no way that anyone's convincing me that City Home and Away aren't our two of hardest three fixtures as an example, with Chelsea Home and Away probably being 4th and 2nd respectively.

The only real issue those home draws against City/Chelsea have given us in my view is that we can't, in theory and if current ppg/form for the three teams remains consistent-ish, afford to lose the reverse fixtures. Draws there would be ok though and just need us to outperform them both in the other 34 fixtures.

Offline Prof

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #107 on: October 27, 2021, 06:02:45 pm »
I love the debates, so please do carry on.

Just a question to consider... How many points has the eventual league winner dropped against teams that finished in the top four the previous season home and away?  Assuming the champions each year finished top four the previous season, there are 18 points available and the aplt model sets a par return of 12 points against these clubs.

I might look this up myself in a bit.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #108 on: October 27, 2021, 07:07:02 pm »
Here you go

These are the results the Champions got against the three top rivals based on the league table from the previous season.



I've spent a lot of time over the years reviewing the model in all sorts of ways.  Every few years, the debate resurfaces and a different approach is suggested.  I still haven't seen a better approach suggested that objectively defines the fixture difficulty in a simple form that is consistent for all teams (e.g. I don't want to factor in things like local derbies, or timing of the fixtures around European matches etc).

The strongest argument would be to use a decimalised par score (to avoid the big shift between par 1 and 3 for one place in the table from the previous season) but this is far more clunky.

Offline wige

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #109 on: October 27, 2021, 10:04:49 pm »
I love the debates, so please do carry on.

Just a question to consider... How many points has the eventual league winner dropped against teams that finished in the top four the previous season home and away?  Assuming the champions each year finished top four the previous season, there are 18 points available and the aplt model sets a par return of 12 points against these clubs.

I might look this up myself in a bit.

I wasn't advocating for a change Prof. The APLT is great and perfectly achieves what it sets out to do. It shouldn't be used as literal translation of how we're doing, but it does perfectly do what it sets out to - give a barometer of how a season is going  with context of fixture difficulty.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #110 on: October 27, 2021, 10:58:57 pm »
I wasn't advocating for a change Prof. The APLT is great and perfectly achieves what it sets out to do. It shouldn't be used as literal translation of how we're doing, but it does perfectly do what it sets out to - give a barometer of how a season is going  with context of fixture difficulty.
No problem.  Like I say, it's really healthy to discuss variations to the model.

I do think that history shows home advantage is a key factor in football.  So winning home games has always been the mark of champions.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #111 on: October 27, 2021, 11:10:35 pm »
Thanks Prof, there’s a small error on the bar graph though. We should have a green away win against Man U not Man City. Those mancs are all the same it’s easily done.
Thanks.  I meant to look earlier to get this fixed.  It'll be a small formula error.  There are a couple of others I can see too. That visual is so complex in terms of how I've created it, it's a pain to check everything is accurate until the results go in.  No doubt there will be more glitches later in the season too, so do shout up if you see any more. 

Offline Dr Stu-Pid

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #112 on: October 28, 2021, 10:59:41 am »
I've spent a lot of time over the years reviewing the model in all sorts of ways.  Every few years, the debate resurfaces and a different approach is suggested.  I still haven't seen a better approach suggested that objectively defines the fixture difficulty in a simple form that is consistent for all teams (e.g. I don't want to factor in things like local derbies, or timing of the fixtures around European matches etc).

The strongest argument would be to use a decimalised par score (to avoid the big shift between par 1 and 3 for one place in the table from the previous season) but this is far more clunky.

I must admit that I did hesitate to post my graph, just because I wanted to avoid this becoming a critique of your excellent work.  ANY simple system that anyone comes up with will never be perfect, and even one which is much more complex (decimalised points, rolling strength of schedule updates, using XG rather than actual points, etc etc) would still not be particularly 'accurate'.  The genius of the APLT is that it is simple to understand, and someone with no knowledge of how it works can grasp the concept very quickly.  That is much more valuable than 100% accuracy.

I also completely agree that there is no need to make changes to your model, not least because it ensures consistency from season to season.  Everyone is free to track their own models if they see fit, and I certainly won't be posting my graph in this thread (or any thread) to be a rival system.

The point that I was trying to make was that the APLT or any variation of it is not meant to be a predictive model and should never be taken literally.  It is just a way of presenting data which tells a different story to the simple league table which makes no adjustment for strength of schedule.  Ultimately no one table or set of data can accurately tell the story of a season to date or the games to come, you need to use a variety of information (including what you see when you watch the games!) to decide how well the season is going and how positive to feel about what is yet to come.  And then throw it all out of the window when all four of your senior CBs get injured...

Keep up the great work Prof!

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #113 on: October 28, 2021, 03:56:36 pm »


Interesting table Prof.

Average of 11.6 so just under par. Only teams above 12 all got more than 90 points.

It does I think show the old adage (especially for years with less than 90pts for the champions) that beat the dross, win the league.
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Offline BoRed

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #114 on: October 28, 2021, 08:33:25 pm »
The strongest argument would be to use a decimalised par score (to avoid the big shift between par 1 and 3 for one place in the table from the previous season) but this is far more clunky.

I've actually tried developing something like this over the years. I made an elaborate model, taking into account loads of data, not just from a single previous season, and I currently have Chelsea on +2.61, City on +2.19, and us on -0.74. In other words, in terms of gaps, just about the same as you. ;D

This is just to say that your model is wonderfully simple, easily understandable, and it works!

Below the top three, there are bigger differences, I have West Ham on -5.55, Spurs on -6.01, Arsenal on -7.68 and Utd on -8.20, with Leicester further behind, but I think this doesn't really matter since the models are fine tuned for the title fight, and those teams are clearly not in the title fight. :)

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #115 on: October 31, 2021, 05:28:50 pm »





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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #116 on: October 31, 2021, 05:34:19 pm »
Chelsea going at some pace.

Offline Always_A_Red

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #117 on: October 31, 2021, 08:17:42 pm »
Love this thread and is exactly where people who say 'we're only 3 points behind Chelsea' should be sent to.

We have a big opportunity next weekend to regain the points we just lost to Brighton.

But it's clear from this that Chelsea are not going away anytime soon. They are certainly the team to beat and we could do with them dropping some points sooner rather than later.
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Offline OkieRedman

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #118 on: October 31, 2021, 09:27:26 pm »
Love this thread and is exactly where people who say 'we're only 3 points behind Chelsea' should be sent to.

We have a big opportunity next weekend to regain the points we just lost to Brighton.

But it's clear from this that Chelsea are not going away anytime soon. They are certainly the team to beat and we could do with them dropping some points sooner rather than later.

I believe the type who say that would also say this is a bunch of malarkey.

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Re: The Alternative Premier League Table 2021-22
« Reply #119 on: November 1, 2021, 12:14:45 am »
Love this thread and is exactly where people who say 'we're only 3 points behind Chelsea' should be sent to.

We have a big opportunity next weekend to regain the points we just lost to Brighton.

But it's clear from this that Chelsea are not going away anytime soon. They are certainly the team to beat and we could do with them dropping some points sooner rather than later.
Yep.  Chelsea are clear favourites to win the league I'm sorry to say.  They had the most difficult opening set of fixtures on paper and have been remarkably consistent and efficient.

We had the best set of fixtures.  Dropped two at home to a ten man Chelsea team.  Two at home to Brighton (after having a two goal lead).  Two away to a newly promoted team.  That's simply not good enough if you want to win the league.

Still, results aside, I love watching this Liverpool side.  Chelsea bore the life out of me.

On another note, I really miss Gini.