Topic: Contesting a Parking fine on private land.

[owens_2k]

Got a ticket the other week.

The car park where I parked had no signs on the entrance to it, or near to where I parked my car. In fact for me to have seen the signs I would have had to drive past where I parked and then done a U-turn and come back to park my car.

Naturally, I appealed the charge submitting all my evidence including photographs I took at the time proving the lack of signs. This was rejected by the parking firm but I now have the chance to appeal through the IAS.

One thing that is bothering me about the IAS appeal however is this:-

Why do you say the parking charge is not payable by you?
(The adjudicator will only consider the appeal based on the legality of the charge and is not able to consider mitigating circumstances).

I'm assuming this means that appeals will only be upheld if the car park operator has broken the a Code of Practice or breached contract law. So basically my appeal will fail based on my evidence?

Anyone got any experience of dealing with these cowboys?

[rob1408]

Legally all signage has to be clear and unobscured, if not, it could affect the legality of the charge.

[owens_2k]

Legally all signage has to be clear and unobscured, if not, it could affect the legality of the charge.

The signage was clear and unobscured but was in such a position that I would have had to drive past where I parked to see it. Is there a law I can quote regarding signage having to be clear and unobscured?

[Jake]

I wish I could remember the names mate but there is a specific case in contract law where a term of the contract was not enforcable as it could not be seen until the contract was entered into (think it was a sign in a shop it's only a vague recollection I'm afraid).

[owens_2k]

I wish I could remember the names mate but there is a specific case in contract law where a term of the contract was not enforcable as it could not be seen until the contract was entered into (think it was a sign in a shop it's only a vague recollection I'm afraid).

Thanks mate I'll have a look.

[Giovanni]

You don't have to pay them anything.

These companies prey on the vulnerable and uninformed.

For a start - the fine is against the person driving the car not the registered owner - so just claim you were not driving the car at the time and don't know who was.

Although you may have already incriminated yourself - I'd still ignore it.

[owens_2k]

You don't have to pay them anything.

These companies prey on the vulnerable and uninformed.

For a start - the fine is against the person driving the car not the registered owner - so just claim you were not driving the car at the time and don't know who was.

Although you may have already incriminated yourself - I'd still ignore it.

Yeah I've already accepted that I was driving.

I'm assuming they will threaten court action. If I go down that route.

[SP]

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=60

They will sort you out...

[Red Viper]

Got a ticket the other week.

The car park where I parked had no signs on the entrance to it, or near to where I parked my car. In fact for me to have seen the signs I would have had to drive past where I parked and then done a U-turn and come back to park my car.

Naturally, I appealed the charge submitting all my evidence including photographs I took at the time proving the lack of signs. This was rejected by the parking firm but I now have the chance to appeal through the IAS.

One thing that is bothering me about the IAS appeal however is this:-

I'm assuming this means that appeals will only be upheld if the car park operator has broken the a Code of Practice or breached contract law. So basically my appeal will fail based on my evidence?

Anyone got any experience of dealing with these cowboys?

Just sent you a pm with a letter I wrote in an appeal against one of these private companies that was successful.

[Giovanni]

Yeah I've already accepted that I was driving.

I'm assuming they will threaten court action. If I go down that route.

They won't take you too court for a parking fine - it's not worth the financial costs involved.

You sound like you have a decent case anyway - signage should be clear and consistent not in one corner of a car park where you might never see it.

Go on the link above - do not pay them a penny mate!

[owens_2k]

Cheers for the PM, and cheers for the link! Will let you know how I get on with the IAS.

[Grobbelrevell]

I'd still ignore it.

Certainly don't just ignore it. While previously this was a standard course of action for these invoices (rather than legally enforceable fines), the law changed in 2012, meaning that they are able to sue you should you simply ignore them.

That said, Giovanni is right in the fact that you don't have to simply pay up. Have you had a look at Moneysavingexpert or any of the other major forums of that type? I had a similar issue a few weeks back and I found their advice invaluable. Here's the main thread anyway:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163

[owens_2k]

Certainly don't just ignore it. While previously this was a standard course of action for these invoices (rather than legally enforceable fines), the law changed in 2012, meaning that they are able to sue you should you simply ignore them.

That said, Giovanni is right in the fact that you don't have to simply pay up. Have you had a look at Moneysavingexpert or any of the other major forums of that type? I had a similar issue a few weeks back and I found their advice invaluable. Here's the main thread anyway:

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163

Posted on that Pepipoo site, see if they can help!

[Grobbelrevell]

Posted on that Pepipoo site, see if they can help!

Ah, missed that post! Similar thing so i'm sure there'll be some good advice there too. Good luck mate!

For what it's worth as well; who owns the car park?

The reason that I ask is that it's often the case that the owner is willing/able to revoke the charge as well. The PCN I received a few weeks back was from a Morrisons car park, for example, so what I did was to contact their CEO and various upper management directly via email, explaining the situation and why I was disappointed with it "as a long standing and loyal customer", bla bla etc etc. I also Tweeted the Morrisons account ("why not?" was my thinking there). Anyway, I eventually received a reply via email from someone acting on behalf of the CEO, to let me know that they'd revoked the charge and to offer an apology.

Maybe worth considering anyway, depending who owns the car park, obviously.

[owens_2k]

Got a great reply instantly. Going with this:

I am contesting this parking charge as there were no signs upon entrance to the car park, or the immediate area of the car park where my car was parked to indicate that this is a permitted parking zone. Any signs should be displayed appropriately and made easily visible to motorists. My vehicle was parked in the car park for Chelford House and I received a parking ticket for leaving my vehicle in a parking space without displaying a permit. The vehicle was parked inside the markings of the bay and was not causing any obstruction or inconvenience to any other vehicle or to the owners of the private land.

1.   Firstly I would like to detail that the lack of signs between the car park entrance, where I parked, and the journey on foot from my car, back to the pedestrian exit means that no contract was formed between myself and VCS, and as such no contract was in place to be agreed to or breached. I have provided photographs of my vehicle when it was issued with the PCN and as you can see there are no signs in the surrounding area, or entrance to the area. I am a law abiding citizen and if informed correctly that this was a permit only zone, I would not have parked there.

2.   The PCN issued to me states that the contravention is failing to display a valid ticket/permit. As I cant contractually agree to do something which is forbidden, this 'contravention' is actually a breach of contracted terms, rather than a service charge. Therefore, the sum demanded - as per Contract Law - must represent a sum for remedy of the breach, such that the breached party is returned to the state they were in prior to the breach.

3.   It is completely free for anyone to park on that premises as long as they have a valid permit, therefore there is absolutely no obligation or liability for anyone (including myself) to pay parking charges, and subsequently there has been absolutely no loss suffered by the parking ticketing company. I would like to point out that any charges must be a genuine pre-estimate of loss, or actual damages caused by trespass.

4.   As there are no unpaid charges then the notice of £100.00 is completely excessive and unreasonable and does not constitute a genuine pre-estimate of loss, as clearly there has been absolutely no loss suffered from me parking. I find the offer of a reduced fine in breach of European legislation as this essentially constitutes a "price escalation clause".

5.   Finally, I would like to point out that the private parking company has to establish that they have a sufficient interest in the land to bring a claim (see case of VCS v. HM Revenue & Customs, Upper Tax Tribunal, a binding decision at the level of the High Court) in which it was decided that unless the private paying company has a proprietary interest in the land, they are not able to offer contracts for parking. This is a binding decision and therefore, given that the private parking company in this case has no interest in the land, I believe that I would be successful in arguing this appeal in court.

I trust all of the above demonstrates that the parking charge notice should not be allowed and I look forward to hearing from you in due course to that effect.

With thanks to foreveragnome for point 5 and his overall help!

[Damo58]

Same thing happened to me outside my flat when I first moved in. We live on a complex type set of apartment blocks and there was one sign around the back of one of the buildings which I would never have happened upon.

Anyway, one night I got clamped for parking in the road in the complex. I phoned them up and said it was illegal and I wouldn't be paying any fine so they may as well just come and take the clamp off. They said if it wasn't paid within 24 hours it would get towed.

After 24 hours they phoned me and said I'd better pay it. I said no. They brought a tow truck to the car and gave me "one last chance to pay" and I refused. They then took the clamp off and said they'll let it pass this time but don't do it again. Nob heads.

They tried again with another fella a few months later. He cut the clamp off, moved his car and put an old wheel from the scrapyard he worked at back in the clamp.

[owens_2k]

IAS accepted my appeal.

Thanks everyone

[Agent99]

Just after a bit of advice regarding parking tickets at Supermarkets.

Went to Asda today and parked in my usual space as someone had just left it. Hadn't been there for a couple of weeks as we've used the delivery service instead but when I left I noticed the space and the one in front had been turned into Parent and Child spaces. Can I get a ticket through the post for parking there? My Dad said I could as they all use Parking Eye or SMART now.

Don't want to get a £40 fine for a genuine mistake. To be fair I wasn't paying much attention to the markings so didn't actually see the huge pram they had sprayed on to the space

[hixxstar]

You were going there to pickup your missus & child... but they got a lift of her sister/mum... that's why you looked 'alone' there ..  (or i went to wrong supermarket)

'My child was asleep in the boot'.. ? 

[rob1966]

Doubt it, the amount of drivers without kids who use those spaces at our Asda.

[Agent99]

You were going there to pickup your missus & child... but they got a lift of her sister/mum... that's why you looked 'alone' there ..  (or i went to wrong supermarket)

'My child was asleep in the boot'.. ? 

Doubt it, the amount of drivers without kids who use those spaces at our Asda.

Hope so. Got an excuse ready anyway

[liversaint]

Just after a bit of advice regarding parking tickets at Supermarkets.

Went to Asda today and parked in my usual space as someone had just left it. Hadn't been there for a couple of weeks as we've used the delivery service instead but when I left I noticed the space and the one in front had been turned into Parent and Child spaces. Can I get a ticket through the post for parking there? My Dad said I could as they all use Parking Eye or SMART now.

Don't want to get a £40 fine for a genuine mistake. To be fair I wasn't paying much attention to the markings so didn't actually see the huge pram they had sprayed on to the space

Doubtful. If you do, don't engage with them, just ignore it. Very unlikely they will be arsed for £40.

[TheKid.]

I’ve never heard of anyone being fined for parking in a parent and child space; if they did do that they would be forever sending out fines considering the amount of people who do it.

I HAVE been sent fines twice by our local asda for ‘staying over 4 hours’ after visiting the shop more than once in a day and the cameras thinking I’d been there all day. Just walked into customer service and told them to sort it out and have them the letter which they just told me to ignore

[dudleyred]

Don’t think the parent / child spaces are enforceable. It’s a convenient thing not law as such

Your punishment will have been the dirty looks you were getting!

[Buggy Eyes Alfredo]

   

Park at the far end of the lot next time, to repay for your sin.

[.adam]

I've been 'done' for two separate private parking charges over the past ten years or so (both of which were frivolous infractions - parking outside of a marked bay and overstaying by 3 minutes) and I refused to pay them both. They both went away.

[ChaChaMooMoo]

I've been 'done' for two separate private parking charges over the past ten years or so (both of which were frivolous infractions - parking outside of a marked bay and overstaying by 3 minutes) and I refused to pay them both. They both went away.

But assuming that the charges are new, and you dont pay, dont they reflect on your credit rating score?

[.adam]

But assuming that the charges are new, and you dont pay, dont they reflect on your credit rating score?

Correct. A parking charge is not a 'penalty' that has been imposed by a governmental body. It is a demand for payment from a private company which you can dispute.

[Buck Pete]

Glad this popped up as I always park on the big Sainsbury's in Leicester near the ground when we play them.  Will be doing so on Saturday too.

Think there is a couple of hours limit but not sure.  I always nip in and buy something (get a receipt) just as a backup in case anyone gets funny.

Do these supermarkets have much sway when it comes to dishing out fines and stuff?

[.adam]

Glad this popped up as I always park on the big Sainsbury's in Leicester near the ground when we play them.  Will be doing so on Saturday too.

Think there is a couple of hours limit but not sure.  I always nip in and buy something (get a receipt) just as a backup in case anyone gets funny.

Do these supermarkets have much sway when it comes to dishing out fines and stuff?

As a general rule, the supermarkets 'outsource' the car park management to third parties such as UKPC. The supermarket has very little say in whether a ticket can be cancelled as they are receiving a nice fee to let UKPC bum as many people as possible.

As I said, in my case I stayed 3 minutes too long in one supermarket car park in 2009 and parked in an unmarked bay about two months ago. Both resulted in 'penalties' through the post.

The first one I provided my Aldi receipt (about £15 worth of spending) and they told me that 'it wasn't enough' to cancel the ticket. I wrote back telling them that I would be ignoring any further correspondence and if they wanted to pursue me through the courts they could do so. They strong-armed me a bit with letters from 'debt collection companies' which really were just subsidiary companies. Eventually they gave up and left me alone.

The one two months ago I parked on some very old road markings, again in an Aldi car park. I had no idea what they meant and there was a person parked directly in front and behind me so figured it'd be fine. Get back from the gym and supermarket and I've got a 'penalty' for £60 sitting on the windscreen.

I appealed stating that the road markings were poorly maintained (took loads of photos showing the poor condition compared to the bays) and stated that they had suffered no economic loss as a result of me parking where I did as I'd left within the free parking allowance and did not block any entrances.

They rejected my appeal with a stock letter that literally said:

"Thank you for your appeal against charge number [INSERT CHARGE NUMBER HERE] at [INSERT SITE NAME HERE]. We have carefully considered..."

... so I appealed to POPLA, the regulator (and mentioned the bullshit stock response). Before POPLA even looked at the appeal, the company withdrew the charge. Fucking shithouses.

Adam 2, UKPC nil.

I wouldn't be chancing staying for over the time on purpose (e.g. going the match whilst parking at the Asda) as you don't really have a leg to stand on whereas I did in both cases. My understanding is that they never used to pursue these things through the courts but this has changed recently and they have become more enforceable.

[Claire.]

If you do get a (non-council) fine, this is always helpful: http://forums.pepipoo.com

[Agent99]

Thanks for the replies everyone. That site looks really useful Claire.

[Roady]

If you do get a ticket tell them to fuck off. Wouldn’t worry about it

[I've been a good boy]

If you do get a ticket tell them to fuck off. Wouldn’t worry about it

I got a ticket from ParkingEye a month ago. c*nts threatened me with a CCJ so had to pay it as thats the last thing I need.

Just been hit with yet another fine, this time from Ealing council for turning right onto a street where right turn wasnt allowed. Ridiculous, it was at 11pm so not like I put anyone in danger. Not even from London so didn't see the sign.

[.adam]

threatened

Key word. Doubt they would have.

[red_lfc_costello]

I got a ticket from ParkingEye a month ago. c*nts threatened me with a CCJ so had to pay it as thats the last thing I need.

Just been hit with yet another fine, this time from Ealing council for turning right onto a street where right turn wasnt allowed. Ridiculous, it was at 11pm so not like I put anyone in danger. Not even from London so didn't see the sign.

Is everyone not from London blind? or is there no road signs outside the M25?!

[liversaint]

I got a ticket from ParkingEye a month ago. c*nts threatened me with a CCJ so had to pay it as thats the last thing I need.

Just been hit with yet another fine, this time from Ealing council for turning right onto a street where right turn wasnt allowed. Ridiculous, it was at 11pm so not like I put anyone in danger. Not even from London so didn't see the sign.

Its what these scum do. Threatening letters with a sliding scale of payments. Have had 3 myself, ignored the lot, not even a phone call to them. Actions taken by Parking Eye- Nil.

[I've been a good boy]

Its what these scum do. Threatening letters with a sliding scale of payments. Have had 3 myself, ignored the lot, not even a phone call to them. Actions taken by Parking Eye- Nil.

How long ago? I googled it and in the past, ignoring them was the best thing to do but apparently they're taking more and more people to court so couldn't risk it.

[liversaint]

Last one was 18 months ago at Warrington Bank Quay station.

[Claire.]

How long ago? I googled it and in the past, ignoring them was the best thing to do but apparently they're taking more and more people to court so couldn't risk it.

Have a look on pepipoo forums for latest info on them all and what they're up to.