Topic: Fuel & energy prices

[Nobby Reserve]

That's a bullshit figure! 

Go and ask how much it'll be to get your car serviced now, compared to a year ago.  I was speaking to a builder the other day, he told me that a solid oak door was now 600 quid, compared to £200 a year ago.

Not to mention our energy prices, of course. More than 100% greater than last year.

Specific things way outstrip the headline rate.

Tell you something I've noticed - and have since read about. The price of the chepest options/basics in supermarkets have soared by more (both percentage and actual cost) than many/most more expensive/branded options. I guess it's down the basics already having thin margins, so no room to absorb input-cost increases without passing that on, whereas the branded/premium items have much bigger margins, so can absorb a little.

[Jiminy Cricket]

^ our heating engineer advised us to maintain a temperature, but I found we were then using heating we didn’t need during the day, so switched to timed. But that was when weather was mild. To me it makes more sense to keep it on when it’s v cold as it prevents the boiler having to work to full capacity.

From the little I understand about boilers, this does not make sense to me.

As far as I am aware, boilers work at a specific capacity. The capacity (flow rate) usually can be adjusted, but as far as I know (someone, please, correct me if I an wrong), unless it is a condensing boiler, the flow rate is a manual adjustment and not readily accessible (probably an engineer would need to adjust it). But with condensing boilers, lowering the flow rate as low as practicable, makes it operate considerably more efficiently, and is usually an adjustment anyone can make on the front of the boiler.

https://www.theheatinghub.co.uk/articles/turn-down-the-boiler-flow-temperature

[clinical]

From the little I understand about boilers, this does not make sense to me.

As far as I am aware, boilers work at a specific capacity. The capacity (flow rate) usually can be adjusted, but as far as I know (someone, please, correct me if I an wrong), unless it is a condensing boiler, the flow rate is a manual adjustment and not readily accessible (probably an engineer would need to adjust it). But with condensing boilers, lowering the flow rate as low as practicable, makes it operate considerably more efficiently, and is usually an adjustment anyone can make on the front of the boiler.

https://www.theheatinghub.co.uk/articles/turn-down-the-boiler-flow-temperature

You want the returning water to be as cold as possible whilst your last radiator on the circuit is still hot. They say about 50C. This way your condensing boiler can use latent heat of energy more efficiently. You want your incoming water to condense the moisture in flue gas. This energy (latent heat) is transferred to the water before is passes your primary heat exchanger as on older boilers.

[Jiminy Cricket]

You want the returning water to be as cold as possible whilst your last radiator on the circuit is still hot. They say about 50C. This way your condensing boiler can use latent heat of energy more efficiently. You want your incoming water to condense the moisture in flue gas. This energy (latent heat) is transferred to the water before is passes your primary heat exchanger as on older boilers.

That's as I understand it too. But, of course, it must be a condensing boiler.

I was questioning the advice received Charlie from his heating engineer, to 'leave the heating on all night'.

[clinical]

That's as I understand it too. But, of course, it must be a condensing boiler.

I was questioning the advice received Charlie from his heating engineer, to 'leave the heating on all night'.

Terrible advice. As i said on previous post if heat loss wasn't a thing and you ran your radiators warm and not hot then yes that would be the most efficienct thing to do. But unless you have the best insulation known to man then it's bad advice.

[Jiminy Cricket]

Terrible advice. As i said on previous post if heat loss wasn't a thing and you ran your radiators warm and not hot then yes that would be the most efficienct thing to do. But unless you have the best insulation known to man then it's bad advice.

I am not sure if I entirely follow you. But if someone with a condensing boiler turns off the heating at night, but then whacks up the flow rate in the morning (so that home heats up more quickly), then they might be off-setting the savings they make by not using the heating at night. But I am unsure of how well the home is insulated affects this and to what degree. I expect that in any normal situation, turning off the heating at night can only reduce energy consumption.

We have our flow rate turned down to about 47 degrees. It takes an age for the house to heat up when it goes on in the morning, but we put up with it. But then, this is generally a well insulated home, so it is dropping only to about 15.5 degrees over night.

[rob1966]

Specific things way outstrip the headline rate.

Tell you something I've noticed - and have since read about. The price of the chepest options/basics in supermarkets have soared by more (both percentage and actual cost) than many/most more expensive/branded options. I guess it's down the basics already having thin margins, so no room to absorb input-cost increases without passing that on, whereas the branded/premium items have much bigger margins, so can absorb a little.

Our kid used to work for Tesco and he said the value/basic lines were loss leaders, they lose money on them, they were used to lure people in and then they'd end up buying more expensive items too. People are likely buying more value stuff and less named brands, so they need to make the money back on them. Plus, the costs of everything has risen, the factories that make the stuff have seen increases in prices, the haulage companies that collect from the factories are paying a lot more in fuel, that kind of thing.

I took a load of tomatoes and cucumbers from Rainford to Bathgate the other week for a small haulage company. They were paying me £18 an hour, 13 hour day for me that day and the fuel for the trip was around £600.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I am not sure if I entirely follow you. But if someone with a condensing boiler turns off the heating at night, but then whacks up the flow rate in the morning (so that home heats up more quickly), then they might be off-setting the savings they make by not using the heating at night. But I am unsure of how well the home is insulated affects this and to what degree. I expect that in any normal situation, turning off the heating at night can only reduce energy consumption.

We have our flow rate turned down to about 47 degrees. It takes an age for the house to heat up when it goes on in the morning, but we put up with it. But then, this is generally a well insulated home, so it is dropping only to about 15.5 degrees over night.

Ours is condensing and fitted this year. Only going on what the engineer said originally, which was to select a target temperature and leave the system to maintain it. I ignored the engineer's advice when weather was mild, because we were using heating during the day that we didn't need, so switched to timed which worked well.
But since it's been colder, the house temperature has dropped, especially in the hall which is where the main stat is which means the boiler will be working harder to get up to target temperature. Andy was saying something similar and he'd worked out that having the heat on all night at a lower temperature was pretty cost neutral vs timed, maybe 50p to £1, but you get the added benefit of the house not being like an icebox first thing. I'm going to move the stat from the hall though because it's giving an almost falsely low reading - which in turn feeds into how hard the boiler will have to work to reach the target temp.

It's like many things - individual circumstances come into play. Type of boiler, location of stat, insulation in house and whether you want to freeze your bollocks off when going for a piss in the night.

[Andy82lfc]

That's as I understand it too. But, of course, it must be a condensing boiler.

I was questioning the advice received Charlie from his heating engineer, to 'leave the heating on all night'.

This was from me testing it overnight too, everyone will vary greatly of course however last week when temps were slightly milder it cost around 40p less to keep the heating topping up at 15 degrees through the night, rather than letting it drop to 10/11 degrees in my house and then having to have the heating on for a good few hours or so constantly to get back up to 15/16 again. (when we go to bed it is around 17.5)

When the weather gets colder it will cost more but I assume it will also cost more / take more time to constantly heat up in the morning for hours.

So essentially it is whether it is more efficient to keep it at 15 degrees overnight, with it coming on a handful of times for 20 mins or so. Or letting it drop and then having it on for a few of hours or so at least to get back up to 15/16.

I have not done enough tests to know which one is better, but off a couple of nights it was very marginable difference indeed, with the main benefit of not waking up and having to put a coat on for a few hours.

This is of course just keeping it to 15 overnight in a not greatly insulated 4 bed, not sure about all day/higher temps/different houses/flats etc, etc. Also with the thermostat in the front room with that one heating up easier/quicker.

[PaulF]

Does 'flooring' the boiler have a similar impact as flooring the pedal in a car. Could you potentially be damaging the boiler by running it at full throttle for a significant amount of time once or twice a day , as opposed to letting it run at lower revs 24x7?

[Machae]

Does 'flooring' the boiler have a similar impact as flooring the pedal in a car. Could you potentially be damaging the boiler by running it at full throttle for a significant amount of time once or twice a day , as opposed to letting it run at lower revs 24x7?

I sent a link a few weeks ago about lowering the flow temp of the boiler, this can be done on both combi and condensing and easier to do if its a modern boiler. I set mine to 60, originally from 80.

I always wondered whether it would make a difference as the rooms will take longer to heat up at 60, then it would've been at 80 therefore the boiler is still working hard, albeit at a reduced capacity (and running longer). I figured it's like driving on the motorway, if you drive at 80 you're using more fuel, whereas driving at lower speeds is more efficient  in fuel consumption

[rob1966]

Does 'flooring' the boiler have a similar impact as flooring the pedal in a car. Could you potentially be damaging the boiler by running it at full throttle for a significant amount of time once or twice a day , as opposed to letting it run at lower revs 24x7?

Ever heard of an "Italian tune?". If you run an engine without much load, it clogs up, so you have to take the car/bike out and thrash the nuts off it for quite a few miles, holding a lower gear getting the revs up, to clear it out, ie an "Italian tune". Boilers possibly are the same, ours is 12 years old and has always been used in an on/off way since fitted, rather than being on all the time.

Causes much amusement when someone puts a sportsbike on a dyno and the fella says "your BHP is down, its because you're not riding the bike hard enough"

[Red-Soldier]

Ours is condensing and fitted this year. Only going on what the engineer said originally, which was to select a target temperature and leave the system to maintain it. I ignored the engineer's advice when weather was mild, because we were using heating during the day that we didn't need, so switched to timed which worked well.
But since it's been colder, the house temperature has dropped, especially in the hall which is where the main stat is which means the boiler will be working harder to get up to target temperature. Andy was saying something similar and he'd worked out that having the heat on all night at a lower temperature was pretty cost neutral vs timed, maybe 50p to £1, but you get the added benefit of the house not being like an icebox first thing. I'm going to move the stat from the hall though because it's giving an almost falsely low reading - which in turn feeds into how hard the boiler will have to work to reach the target temp.

It's like many things - individual circumstances come into play. Type of boiler, location of stat, insulation in house and whether you want to freeze your bollocks off when going for a piss in the night.

I have a condensor boiler and I let it go down to 9 overnight (not sure what it drops down to in the house though).  I've recently attended a seminar on decarbonisation of buildings, and it is much more efficient and less energy intensive, to maintain a reasonable temperature over the weekend, as opposed to shutting everything down and having a massive energy/carbon spike on a Monday morning.

[thaddeus]

Specific things way outstrip the headline rate.

Tell you something I've noticed - and have since read about. The price of the chepest options/basics in supermarkets have soared by more (both percentage and actual cost) than many/most more expensive/branded options. I guess it's down the basics already having thin margins, so no room to absorb input-cost increases without passing that on, whereas the branded/premium items have much bigger margins, so can absorb a little.

I expect the demand for those products has gone up as well.  Just as the 2008 global financial crash made lots of middle and upper/middle clash individuals reconsider their supermarket choice (Waitrose, M&S, Tesco etc. to Aldi, Lidl etc.) I'm sure the same will have happened with people buying branded versus supermarket brands.  More demand for those products means temptation for the supermarkets to raise the prices irrespective of all the genuine cost pressures on them.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

I have a condensor boiler and I let it go down to 9 overnight (not sure what it drops down to in the house though).  I've recently attended a seminar on decarbonisation of buildings, and it is much more efficient and less energy intensive, to maintain a reasonable temperature over the weekend, as opposed to shutting everything down and having a massive energy/carbon spike on a Monday morning.

Interesting.
When you think about it, the things we now have to have a reasonable working knowledge of these days is ridiculous.
I used to just shop around for the lowest per unit gas price because we were heavy users and that kept bills OK relative to size/type of house and that was fine. But now, we all need to have a reasonable understanding of the best way to be fuel efficient.

I guess the one positive is that most of us are using less which means we need to import less. Unlike most other Govts, especially in Europe, there's been bugger all leadership from ours about the advantages of using less gas.

[Andy82lfc]

I know someone mentioned £20 a day earlier but is anyone on anymore than that right now? I suppose you'd only know if you have a smart meter/display to check, but just curious as I reckon we'd be on at least that if not well more if heating the whole house to a heady 20 degrees with it averaging about 0 degrees outside at the minute. Gonna be getting to £10 minimum today with just two rooms being heated to 16 degrees. So it must be getting into silly figures doing the whole place for some. I mean even if you are on decent wages that is a massive dent.

[Wabaloolah]

My gas was about £6 per day yesterday, the missus has been WFH all week as she has a chest infection and daughter has been off college with tonsillitis so the hearing has been on most of the day particularly as it's really cold out, think our overall spend yesterday was about £8!

Think it will be more today, usually our gas maxes out at about £3.50 per day but can't help thinking after reading the last few pages of the thread is I may be contributing to their health issues by not having the heating on during the day when I'm here on my own!

Might have to relax the purse strings somewhat as don't want them getting seriously ill.

I've just checked our account with EDF, last bill was in August, and we are now £930 in credit, currently paying £157 a month and getting £66 back from the government rebate so it's £91 a month.

Heating always goes off when missus goes to bed about 10ish, always has done though even when it was cheaper so no change there.

You can definitely feel the difference between out house and our Mam's though as she has the heating on all day and it's toasty but she is 84. Luckily she can afford it, how some pensioners and people on benefits/low incomes are managing is anyone's guess!

[PaulF]

I have a condensor boiler and I let it go down to 9 overnight (not sure what it drops down to in the house though).  I've recently attended a seminar on decarbonisation of buildings, and it is much more efficient and less energy intensive, to maintain a reasonable temperature over the weekend, as opposed to shutting everything down and having a massive energy/carbon spike on a Monday morning.

Is that better for the individual or for "everyone" in general?
Might it be better to have a low load on the whole grid 24x7, than a massive spike starting about 6 in the morning?

[thaddeus]

Full exchange of air in a room only takes seconds afaik, so opening the windows for about 1 minutes is enough. That means surfaces stay warm and evem though the air is cooler, you haven't lost too much heat.

Thanks.  It sounds like little and often is the way to do it then and to start doing it before the humidity starts penetrating the walls and soft furnishings.  I'll give it a go the next time I'm in the house by myself.

[Red-Soldier]

Nearly 15 quid yesterday.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Obviously will use energy a lot less in the warmer months, but our utility bill (WFH) for Eleccy and Water and Gas Is around £3600 normally.

I reckon it'll be about £5,500 or less with these increases going from what I've checked.

Meh.

[PaulF]

Heating not yet on today. Feel it might be on soon though!

[Cali]

Got a new born in the house so heating is on all day and night so I’ve had to get a second job no joke either

[tubby]

Is it more efficient for cost/heat to turn the heating up higher than usual and blast it out for an hour, or leave it on lower temperature for a few more hours?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Is it more efficient for cost/heat to turn the heating up higher than usual and blast it out for an hour, or leave it on lower temperature for a few more hours?

I'd try not to let your house get actually freezing as that can cause more issues than a heating bill

[rob1966]

Got a new born in the house so heating is on all day and night so I’ve had to get a second job no joke either

We put an electric/oil radiator in our babies room when we had the first kid, 2008/09 winter and the 3 month bill was £500 

Fuck knows what it would be now.

[Nobby Reserve]

Is it more efficient for cost/heat to turn the heating up higher than usual and blast it out for an hour, or leave it on lower temperature for a few more hours?

Depends on your insulation.

Have a well-insulated house that doesn't leak a lot of heat, and leaving the heating on to maintain a core temperature will be very expensive as the boiler will be working more often than not. With a house that retains heat fairly well, the boiler will only kick into life periodically and not for that long, so the impact of overall cost is minimal.

[redbyrdz]

Depends on your insulation.

Haveing a badly-insulated house that leak a lot of heat, and leaving the heating on to maintain a core temperature will be very expensive as the boiler will be working more often than not. With a house that retains heat fairly well, the boiler will only kick into life periodically and not for that long, so the impact of overall cost is minimal.

Think this is what you mean?


I'd tend to agree, but in the balance I think its likely better to keep the heating running in most houses, unless it really is more like a tent.

Usage also plays a role - if you're out of the house 14 hours a day, and only home to sleep, you can probably only turn it on when you're actually there. The house won't retain any heat, but you also don't need it. (Longer term, you're more likely to get damp and other issues that way though)

[Andy82lfc]

Nearly 15 quid yesterday.

Had it at £10 yesterday but at about 17 in living room/office room, 12 degrees everywhere else. Gone past the stage of caring now though as I didn't feel great last night so heating it up to 18 now and more of the house too. Will be £15 easy today I reckon.

Will expect it to be cheaper after this cold snap so hopefully this and a couple more weeks like it during winter will be the worst of it.

Lived in flats all my life where it's normally much cheaper an obviously moved into a house at the wrong time! Been using my big Lab as a hot water bottle and been locating all of his warm spots (under arms are great  ). Might go down the local rescue and foster a good 20 of them for the winter. 

[Nobby Reserve]

Think this is what you mean?


I'd tend to agree, but in the balance I think its likely better to keep the heating running in most houses, unless it really is more like a tent.

Usage also plays a role - if you're out of the house 14 hours a day, and only home to sleep, you can probably only turn it on when you're actually there. The house won't retain any heat, but you also don't need it. (Longer term, you're more likely to get damp and other issues that way though)

Yeah, I mixed that up, didn't I   

Started writing about one scenario then flipped to another midway through 

[Wabaloolah]

Nearly 15 quid yesterday.

blimey, ours was £5 for gas yesterday, the heating was off between 3 and 8 though as we were having a new gas hob fitted (that's going to add to the bill somewhat too as we've been without one since September!

No choice but to have the heating on pretty much all day today though so it'll be interesting to see what it costs.

[Millie]

My gas yesterday was £5.42 - my highest day so far this month is £6.37.  I have had the thermostat set at about 18.5 c and I have it on in the morning and the evening.  I guess my insulation must be pretty decent.

[Wabaloolah]

My gas yesterday was £5.42 - my highest day so far this month is £6.37.  I have had the thermostat set at about 18.5 c and I have it on in the morning and the evening.  I guess my insulation must be pretty decent.

similar to ours, been gradually increasing over the last week, 7 days a go it was £2.55 now over a fiver!

[PaulF]

HArd to know if running a small electric heater in one room is better than running central heating over the whole house. I guess that's where smart meters are worth their weight in gold.  And thermostats on rads, though I'm not sure how on earth that can work as I assume the hot water goes around the whole house.

[Red Raw]

HArd to know if running a small electric heater in one room is better than running central heating over the whole house. I guess that's where smart meters are worth their weight in gold.  And thermostats on rads, though I'm not sure how on earth that can work as I assume the hot water goes around the whole house.

Thermostatic radiator valves (TRVs) restrict hot water flow through the radiator when the room reaches the set temperature. Turning TRVs down or off in rooms that don't need heating will save energy because the water is only circulating through the pipes not the panels. This reduces the rate of heat transfer to the rooms which means the return temperature to the boiler is higher which will signal the boiler to shut down for a bit.

More advanced remote TRVs are expensive but can be used in conjunction with an app to set the switch-off times and temperatures for individual radiators directly. If you can be arsed to turn them on and off manually it will have the same effect. Note: TRVs do not override the operation of boiler timer controls – they just give a bit more ‘local’ control.

Heating a single room is likely to be cheaper than heating a whole house but how much depends on the size of the house and how well insulated it is.

Electric panel/convector heaters tend to be rated at 2-3 kW (it will say on the label). Most are not thermostatically controlled so it is easy to calculate the energy consumed - using a 2 kW heater for 5 hours for example will use 10 kWh of electricity. At the current electricity price cap of 34p per kWh that will cost you about £3.40.

You don't need smart meter to work out how much gas as you you can read the meter manually - do it over a couple of evenings if you want to get a better result. The meters are usually in cubic metres although older meters may be in cubic feet. A simple multiplication sum will convert the volume of gas used to kWh. This is explained on your bill but you can also see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gas-meter-readings-and-bill-calculation for details.

The unit cost of gas is currently 10p per kWh so if you use less than 3.4 times the amount of energy to heat a single room you will save money. Alternatively turn down the TRVs in rooms that are not occupied (for example in the evening) and see how that affects your gas use.

[Studgotelli]

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/11/uk-power-prices-hit-record-high-amid-cold-snap-and-lack-of-wind-power

[TepidT2O]

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/11/uk-power-prices-hit-record-high-amid-cold-snap-and-lack-of-wind-power

Christ ..how depressing

[redbyrdz]

Great post from Red Raw above, and something that shoyld be publicised more widely. I think many people underestimate the costs of their "alternative" heating methods, for fear of the high prices of their main energy supplier.

[rob1966]

Another Octopus saving session tonight, 5 til 7 pm. Not going to be able to do the full session as will have to make the wife's tea but should be able to do 90 minutes.

So far earned enough to pay for a day's gas usage so been worth it.

[Charlie Adams fried egg]

Thermostatic radiator valves (TRVs) restrict hot water flow through the radiator when the room reaches the set temperature. Turning TRVs down or off in rooms that don't need heating will save energy because the water is only circulating through the pipes not the panels. This reduces the rate of heat transfer to the rooms which means the return temperature to the boiler is higher which will signal the boiler to shut down for a bit.

More advanced remote TRVs are expensive but can be used in conjunction with an app to set the switch-off times and temperatures for individual radiators directly. If you can be arsed to turn them on and off manually it will have the same effect. Note: TRVs do not override the operation of boiler timer controls – they just give a bit more ‘local’ control.

Heating a single room is likely to be cheaper than heating a whole house but how much depends on the size of the house and how well insulated it is.

Electric panel/convector heaters tend to be rated at 2-3 kW (it will say on the label). Most are not thermostatically controlled so it is easy to calculate the energy consumed - using a 2 kW heater for 5 hours for example will use 10 kWh of electricity. At the current electricity price cap of 34p per kWh that will cost you about £3.40.

You don't need smart meter to work out how much gas as you you can read the meter manually - do it over a couple of evenings if you want to get a better result. The meters are usually in cubic metres although older meters may be in cubic feet. A simple multiplication sum will convert the volume of gas used to kWh. This is explained on your bill but you can also see https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gas-meter-readings-and-bill-calculation for details.

The unit cost of gas is currently 10p per kWh so if you use less than 3.4 times the amount of energy to heat a single room you will save money. Alternatively turn down the TRVs in rooms that are not occupied (for example in the evening) and see how that affects your gas use.

Good post, I agree that you don't need a smart meter to keep tabs on what you're using. One whole unit on the meter is around 31.6Kwh. It's sub divided into hundredths, but if your meter moves round by a whole number, it's cost you £3.25.

If I'm working at home on my own, I'll just use a 0.5Kwh oil filled heater in the study set to about 4 (6 is the max) and that has kept the room nice enough after the main heating's been on for a couple of hours between 6&8. On that basis, I reckon its no more than 15p per hour to run which in the current circumstances is OK.